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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On January 15 2010 02:07 Ace wrote: Amazing. People flame Kwanro for playing an early-mid game micro oriented ZvT and when he plays a macro stlye he also gets flamed. Poor guy v_v when has he ever played a macro style? | ||
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Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:12 Matoo- wrote: Just watched the vods. The atmosphere looked underwhelming. I've seen better for random PL matches. This is ro4 which is supposed to be the last step before the finals. What's up? I know OSL > MSL but in my memories MSL semis were still quite epic. Why is it that OSL > MSL? | ||
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
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Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
The OSL was born before the MSL, Ongamenet also has more history than MBCGame, throw in some stuff like golden/diamond mouses and in the end OSL > MSL for the public as well as for the progamers themselves, despite the MSL being better in many ways like seeding and commentating (if you like their style). From time to time some random korean nazi even comes to TLnet claiming how the OSL shouldn't be called the OSL but just "the Starleague" and the MSL shouldn't be called a Starleague but only "the MSL". Hardly anyone cares outside Korea though. By the way, on a completely different subject, it's fine to complain about chinese people raping the streams but people should stop taking the moral high ground while doing so, most of the streams we're using are ripped from Korea so we're not really entitled to use these more than they do. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2454 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:12 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: when has he ever played a macro style? Are you thick? Kwanro vs Bogus? Tons of Kwanro's games go late, and he sometimes opens 3 hatch before pool! Hell, his build game one was about using guardians to keep the pressure off his risky double gas expansion bottom left wasn't it? edit: Maybe not, I didn't really see his economy and he did have an awful lot of mutas. And people, Kwanro "cheesed" in response to Flash's 7rax. It wasn't even 8rax. It was like, 7rax 7depot (?!). Flash cheesed this series. Twice. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:40 Turbovolver wrote: Are you thick? Kwanro vs Bogus? Tons of Kwanro's games go late, and he sometimes opens 3 hatch before pool! Hell, his build game one was about using guardians to keep the pressure off his risky double gas expansion bottom left wasn't it? edit: Maybe not, I didn't really see his economy and he did have an awful lot of mutas. And people, Kwanro "cheesed" in response to Flash's 7rax. It wasn't even 8rax. It was like, 7rax 7depot (?!). Flash cheesed this series. Twice. Cant call it in response to flash's 7 rax. We have no idea whether kwanro originally planned for a over pool speed build in game 2 or if it was more of a on the fly build. He might have over pooled, speed because of last game's 14 cc or because he expected flash to 7/8 proxy rax or maybe it was none of that and he just wanted to give pressure. Also the build he used in game one cant call it a management build. I have never seen a game where zerg does that build where his muta micro and guards did no damage and still won. The difference between a management 2 hatch and an all in 2 hatch is that zergs who eco 2 hatch just make about 11 mutas then either adds den and goes lurker, and head normally into defiler hive tech or they get fast hive and go fast ultras crazy zerg, maybe making guards too. In both styles drones are powered for a while. The build kwanro did he was mostly pumping mostly mutas not getting ups for ground units or making a lot of drones. So it is an all in because he has no follow ups if his mutas or guards fail, like shown in the games vs flash. You will see the difference between the build kwanro used and the build calm used. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:40 Turbovolver wrote: Are you thick? Kwanro vs Bogus? Tons of Kwanro's games go late, and he sometimes opens 3 hatch before pool! Hell, his build game one was about using guardians to keep the pressure off his risky double gas expansion bottom left wasn't it? edit: Maybe not, I didn't really see his economy and he did have an awful lot of mutas. And people, Kwanro "cheesed" in response to Flash's 7rax. It wasn't even 8rax. It was like, 7rax 7depot (?!). Flash cheesed this series. Twice. I think it's important to remember, though, that while Flash most certainly cheeses, he isn't seen as very one dimensional. Kwanro has solid enough late game play (we've seen it a couple of times!), but he goes for ling rushes, hydra busts, and mass muta the vast majority of his games. It's just how it is. Flash, on the other hand, goes pretty much standard the majority of his games. He'll throw curveballs like this series where he WANTED to triple bunker rush, and he'll have games like his series vs Best where he just scouted well and destroyed Best with standard play into responsive timing pushes. Hell, he spent the first half of this season just crushing zergs with a standard MnM push (altered to attack at weird timing sometimes) and TvT, which I don't think I've seen him cheese in all season. I don't personally think Kwanro is one dimensional. He's shown sparks of solid, well rounded gameplay, but he's kind of like how Flash was when Flash first debuted -- really cheesy overall, which makes it hard to acknowledge there's some brilliance under all the rushes and fancy micro. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On January 15 2010 06:19 SimonB wrote: I'm almost more glad to see Kwanro lose than Flash win. It would really be a travesty of fate if he made it to two consecutive MSL finals. IMO, the progamer with the most amount of success for such little talent and inspiration. What exactly do you know? I find it AMAZING that people still think that Kwanro is some skillless scrub even after making it to an MSL FInal and then the Semi's a season later. Kwanro is actually damn good all around but he just rushes often. Kwanro does not have a weak lategame... | ||
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SectorX
United Kingdom8 Posts
Also, it seemed like Flash didn't want to drag the games into macro-intensive late games, probably due to more practice on the OSL finals I guess? | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
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hixhix
1158 Posts
On January 15 2010 02:58 Romantic wrote: Did Kwanro forget that Terrans have scans and can tell he is going for Guardians? That is why it doesn't work. Unless you put a hatchery in the middle of the map and build the spire there (and get lucky as hell), Guardians won't work. Noob, dont talk like you know how TvZ works. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 15 2010 09:27 Jayme wrote: What exactly do you know? I find it AMAZING that people still think that Kwanro is some skillless scrub even after making it to an MSL FInal and then the Semi's a season later. Kwanro is actually damn good all around but he just rushes often. Kwanro does not have a weak lategame... uh kwanro isn't very good, there are zergs with far better early-game execution, and zergs with far better lategame management. Jaedong, Effort, Calm, yarnc & luxury when they play well, by.hero, and zero are all better players overall than Kwanro. When yarnc/luxury/by.hero are playing poorly, which is a large percentage of the time, it could be said that Kwanro is a "top 5 zerg", but the claim is wholly meaningless. the guy is really nothing special, and has benefitted from comparatively easy draws in both the last MSL and this one | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2454 Posts
On January 15 2010 07:52 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Cant call it in response to flash's 7 rax. We have no idea whether kwanro originally planned for a over pool speed build in game 2 or if it was more of a on the fly build. He might have over pooled, speed because of last game's 14 cc or because he expected flash to 7/8 proxy rax or maybe it was none of that and he just wanted to give pressure. This is true, the overpool wasn't a response to 7rax, Kwanro had an interesting build lined up no matter what Flash was up to. The extra pumped lings were a response, in my opinion. Flash lifted his rax and with the reinforcement lings I think Kwanro could have broken the ramp even with 2 SCVs. I don't personally think Kwanro is one dimensional. He's shown sparks of solid, well rounded gameplay, but he's kind of like how Flash was when Flash first debuted -- really cheesy overall, which makes it hard to acknowledge there's some brilliance under all the rushes and fancy micro. Yeah, this (and the rest of your stuff that this summarises) is all true. I didn't really have a problem with Flash cheesing, although Kwanro's late drone pull made it frustrating as hell to watch! If he didn't try to fight against Flash marines+SCVs with drones, he could've done way more damage to the bunker with the drones (play cat and mouse with the marines), and lost way less when lings came out >.< | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 15 2010 10:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: uh kwanro isn't very good, there are zergs with far better early-game execution, and zergs with far better lategame management. Jaedong, Effort, Calm, yarnc & luxury when they play well, by.hero, and zero are all better players overall than Kwanro. When yarnc/luxury/by.hero are playing poorly, which is a large percentage of the time, it could be said that Kwanro is a "top 5 zerg", but the claim is wholly meaningless. the guy is really nothing special, and has benefitted from comparatively easy draws in both the last MSL and this one Stork/Zero/Flash/Iris was a pretty good silver run and Bogus/Light/Flash isn't that bad. Particularly beating Flash and Light in series games. I mean I guess you can rationalize it as Flash was in one of "those" phases and Light decided to channel a bit of Sea and choke his ass off vs Zergs in a tournaments but, all said and done, Kwanro beats good players when it matters pretty often -- more often than any zerg not named Jaedong, Calm, and maaaaaybe Zero. | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
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