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I was thinking about ways to not get your defiler irradiated so easily in zvt.
I think a defiler's the key way (obviously, right?) to defend a base. The problem with me defending bases in zvt is that the terran always moves his vessels forward to irradiate right before he attacks.
What if zergs researched burrow and burrowed lings with the defilers? You need lings for consume anyways, and it's only 100 gas. Besides, the size of the lings is the same as the defiler and no terran is really going to move his vessel in and check each burrowed "spot" one by one to find the defiler.
Of course this is all pure theorycrafting so if any good players could give some feedback, this would be great (Idra? I know you're out there!)
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Burrow + put overlord above is pretty good. They can't see it and even if they it's hard for them to target.
Research overlord speed + drop is the best way to hide defilers, but it's pretty darn expensive. But you can pop your defiler in and out and dodge irradiates. You have to change ship but losing an ovie to irradiate is cheaper than losing a defiler.
Realistically, I usually research burrow (need it anyway in case of vessel eraser gayness) and put shit on top of defiler.
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Placing a ling directly on top of the defiler might be an easier way to hide it. If you just burrow around it, there's still a chance the T will click it. He'll probably also find it a little suspicious that you have burrowed units in your own base.
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If you've got nydus canals in the area you can move your defiler backwards and forwards through them.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
Yea when I play zerg ( once every month ) I would mainly move them through my nydus cannals if your talking about late game.
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About the overlord drop + speed, I suppose this works, but don't put more than one defiler in an overlord. If I remember correctly, if you pick up an irradiated unit, every other organic unit inside the overlord will be hurt by splash as well.
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Well you should be utilizing nyduses so it'd be a good idea to use them to avoid irradiates as well, just move the defilers through the nydus canal. Although those tricks are also nice, sometimes you really may not have the time to set up a cute ovie over a burrowed defiler etc. Simply make more than one at a time and instead of trying so hard to avoid getting the defiler irradiated when the vessels actually come, practice scourging his vessels beforehand. You should be constantly making scourge as well especially if you see that his vessels are growing in number, so chances are they will be there when he comes to irradiate everything,
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I offrace Zerg quite a bit, and fortunately, Protoss is my main, so I do not have these cowardly instincts to "hide" things. I just run my units straight forward into the line of fire, dark swarms blazing underneath tank fire. It's like d-day.
Seriously, though, you could try one of these cute moves to hide them, but the real solution is to probably just control the game by having more defilers than you need(so you can afford to lose some) with scourge near them to kill the vessels if they come near. If he has to suicide a vessel, or better yet, lose the vessel before getting off the irradiate, then you're good to go. It probably couldn't hurt to use burrow/hide the defiler along with keep scourge near also, though.
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youd need a system to make sure you could select the defiler quickly, otherwise if they catch you off guard all your shit will be dead before you unburrow and swarm. using a hotkey for a defiler at every base wouldnt be all that practical, and itd be easy to forget which burrowed spot is the defiler and depending on unburrowing everything is dangerous because of the thing where attacked units auto unburrow and mess with the commands.
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On March 20 2009 20:42 SteveNick wrote:
Seriously, though, you could try one of these cute moves to hide them, but the real solution is to probably just control the game by having more defilers than you need(so you can afford to lose some) with scourge near them to kill the vessels if they come near. If he has to suicide a vessel, or better yet, lose the vessel before getting off the irradiate, then you're good to go. It probably couldn't hurt to use burrow/hide the defiler along with keep scourge near also, though.
This. Researching burrow, burrow defiler and move an overlord/ling above it is totally unrealistic. It takes way to much time and concentration. also terrans vessels shouldnt be able to just fly around on their own, you have to force him to bring his army with, and if theres a point in the game where your defilers might be eradiated, you shouldnt burrow, but cast dark swarm or plague, since his army will be nearby.
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Or just place your scourges in front..?
There are also nydus canals you know.
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scourge the vessels
end of story
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On March 20 2009 20:58 IdrA wrote:
youd need a system to make sure you could select the defiler quickly, otherwise if they catch you off guard all your shit will be dead before you unburrow and swarm. using a hotkey for a defiler at every base wouldnt be all that practical, and itd be easy to forget which burrowed spot is the defiler and depending on unburrowing everything is dangerous because of the thing where attacked units auto unburrow and mess with the commands.
It's not that bad, you click all burrowed units and isolate the defiler icon. If you have fast enough reflexes, you can screen back to a tank + mnm + vessel push, unburrow, and dark swarm. You just need to pull off one, and if your defiler's kind of in the back, it's not gonna die before you do that.
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its not that bad sure, but when you're sitting behind a couple of lurkers and he charges you with 3 groups of mm 1 second pulling up the defiler can cost you the game.
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On March 20 2009 23:22 IdrA wrote:
its not that bad sure, but when you're sitting behind a couple of lurkers and he charges you with 3 groups of mm 1 second pulling up the defiler can cost you the game.
yea. it's useful as defense or offense though, not as chilling out midmap
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On March 20 2009 23:54 StRyKeR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2009 23:22 IdrA wrote:
its not that bad sure, but when you're sitting behind a couple of lurkers and he charges you with 3 groups of mm 1 second pulling up the defiler can cost you the game. yea. it's useful as defense or offense though, not as chilling out midmap
i think he meant 3 lurker in ur base...
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On March 20 2009 23:02 niin wrote:
scourge the vessels
end of story
he said it.
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you can also "stack burrow" a unit on top of the defiler making it impossible to click on. Like stack burrowing lurkers so only 1 can be irradiated at a time.
I like this trick, but the drawbacks I see are:
1.) makes your army immobile (but if you say use it for defense, that might work).
2.) you might lose track of your own defiler making you have to find it delay your swarm cast
Other than that, I can see that some burrowed lurkers, lings, defilers with some hydras/scourges on top can help stop terran's vessel movement from just swooping in, irradiating and swooping out.
I see too often that even with scourge nearby, the vessels have such a large vision and irradiate casting range, it can usually cast and dodge back into the mnm to draw the scourge into the marine fire.
I guess that's why I'm starting to see pros use some hydra/lurker/ling/swarm vs mnm now. Example is By.Hero vs Hwasin in OSL Ro8 using only hydra/lurker/swarm. and also July used some hydra/lurker/ling/swarm in All Race fight... i think also vs hwasin.
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Burrowing 100 lings is going to hurt you more than losing a defiler or two. T will just walk into your lings and attack them and fuck their AI so they just suicide and your hotkeys will be all fucked up and not work if you try to mass unburrow a mixed group.
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Germany2762 Posts
i don't know how viable it is but the easiest way is to hide it in an overlord over your base i guess. sure you can still lose your overlord but so you can burrowed units.
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On March 21 2009 06:25 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Burrowing 100 lings is going to hurt you more than losing a defiler or two. T will just walk into your lings and attack them and fuck their AI so they just suicide and your hotkeys will be all fucked up and not work if you try to mass unburrow a mixed group.
LOL. how often does T walk into a group of lings with a defiler nearby and live? More importantly, how often does T walk into a group of lurker/lings and live?
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On March 21 2009 06:43 gul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 06:25 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Burrowing 100 lings is going to hurt you more than losing a defiler or two. T will just walk into your lings and attack them and fuck their AI so they just suicide and your hotkeys will be all fucked up and not work if you try to mass unburrow a mixed group. LOL. how often does T walk into a group of lings with a defiler nearby and live? More importantly, how often does T walk into a group of lurker/lings and live?
scan a burrowed group of units, stime and rush them before the lurkers or anything has a chance to react. What the hell are you talking about.
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On March 21 2009 06:43 gul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 06:25 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Burrowing 100 lings is going to hurt you more than losing a defiler or two. T will just walk into your lings and attack them and fuck their AI so they just suicide and your hotkeys will be all fucked up and not work if you try to mass unburrow a mixed group. LOL. how often does T walk into a group of lings with a defiler nearby and live? More importantly, how often does T walk into a group of lurker/lings and live?
scan a burrowed group of units, stim and rush them before the lurkers or anything have a chance to react. What the hell are you talking about. Besides what terran army doesn't have vessel in ZvT? He may just accidentally walk into your army.
It's like having a frame disadvantage all the time in Streetfighter. Your burrowed reaction to almost anything will be bad. (except for early game ling surprise, hold lurker, or hydra shuttle sniping really).
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marines cannot stim rush lurkers before lurkers have a chance to react. the lurkers attack automatically.
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have scourge at every base. make T pay every time he wants to fly into your bases to cause havoc. If he still flies in and irradiates, lay down swarm immediately and rebuild defiler. its just about composure.
i'm against burrowing and hiding because in the heat of moment i dont wanna have to spend extra seconds finding my defiler
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On March 26 2009 07:57 gul wrote:
marines cannot stim rush lurkers before lurkers have a chance to react. the lurkers attack automatically.
Right because it's simply IMPOSSIBLE for M&M to kill lurkers with SCI/Tank support???
The way to stop this is to scourge the vessels and be quick with your nydus canals... or don't get contained 
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Every zerg at every level gets passive sometimes midgame.... are joking?
The only way for zerg to 100% always avoid losing map control is to go all-in lings and leave if it fails.
If you position an overlord correctly over a defiler it isn't possible to click on. This is for emergency when 3 tanks/sci are gunning down my throat, and sci is out before defiler and consume is almost done.
Burrowing units sucks. It is so hard to do that. I mean it seems cool, but I hate using lurker/ling and accidentally burrowing lings ect.
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Right because it's simply IMPOSSIBLE for M&M to kill lurkers with SCI/Tank support???
"uh... it's not impossible for M&M to kill lurkers with support from 100 Carriers"
who said anything about tank support? he said marines stim rush lurkers... i love when people completely change the scenario.
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to OP: how was your 90-day ban?
anyways, i've seen games where jaedong stacks lurker on top of each other so that vessels can't snipe all of them (you can only irradiate the one on top). this idea is viable but i agree with the general consensus that nydus is the best answer. running you defiler back and forth. also, if the terran is ballsy enough to just send his vessels in front to snipe your defilers, you aren't doing something right with your scourges.
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burrow is very impractical. the best way is to have overlords/lings in key locations to see when the mass of vessels is coming. then hide through the nydus.
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there are so many things you could do. burrow, hide in an overlord etc.
The most viable is to abuse nydus canals which a few pro zergs have done on tv. just pop out, swarm, pop back
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On March 27 2009 12:07 redtooth wrote:
to OP: how was your 90-day ban?
Was this really needed?
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EPT
