EPTtl;dr version:
- What is good opening builds for ZvP on Lost Temple?
- How do you effectively play ZvP on Lost Temple?
- Is it better to play a micro intensive game than macro intensive?
- How do you prepare for two gate?
- How do you prepare for one gate tech?
- How do you prepare for fast expand?
- How do you setup your economy and third expansion?
- How do you maintain your macro and economy late game if Protoss is maxed?
Now I figure that if a Protoss opens with two gate or one gate tech Zerg is still in a trivial position since the distances are pretty close and it stops the Zerg from 12 hatching (especially if both players are within the same area as each other).
Two gate is useful and has really no downside I can think of on Lost Temple unless the P user has mediocre control and lets a few lings into his mineral line. Assuming the Protoss isn't dumb, he could probably put up some significant damage on the map in general. Even at reverse positions the walk to an expansion Hatchery is not significant. And of course, the distance from the main base to the expansion is pretty long so reinforcing lings just takes seconds more which is definitely crucial in the midst of defending early zealots.
Two Gate
In my opinion if a Zerg gets 8o'clock or 12o'clock and does a 12 hatch against an unknowingly Protoss double gate that it is probably over. Why?
8o'clock: Very long distance between main and natural. Even if the Protoss is cross positions they are in a far better position then the Zerg. The cross position distance from 2o'clock and 8o'clock is about the distance of walk between close positions on Python. Then again if the Protoss does fail in killing the Zerg, significant damage will be dealt unless the Zerg had by far superior micro or the Protoss made a really dumb error. Then Protoss can use the new-era expand after two gate with forge and macro up. Unlike other maps, Lost Temple is unforgiving for Zerg if this is to happen. Most times Zerg won't be able to grab a 3rd after Protoss opens double gate -> expand. But Lost Temple makes it quite impossible. The map is small, easy to scout, and the Zealots have total control of the field. Now if the map was, say, Andromeda or Bluestorm, Zerg could snatch a sneak expo - yet the expansion itself could still be safe even if the Protoss eventually scouts it.
12o'clock: If not just as bad, probably worse... 12o'clock position usually requires a 3 hatch build. The 2nd hatch, rather than going at the natural goes near the ramp. This can be placed here for ZvT as well as ZvP. In ZvZ late game, 12 position = almost auto-lose because of expansion positioning. The problem is the expansion does not cover the ramp. The only option you can chose early game verse two rax or two gate is jump creep colonies until your creep reaches a position that can successfully cover before and at the ramp. So this position is pretty much a big "fuck you" to your economy if you don't lay the 2nd hatch at the ramp. If you do put your 3rd at the expansion, you'll be behind. And if the Protoss did two gate your going to be very behind considering that (if the Protoss puts on decent pressure and doesn't have his own economy damaged) you have been using your larva for zerglings and it just takes that much longer do get your expansion working.
So how does a Zerg deal with a two gate? I know I've been talking exclusively about 12 hatch since I feel that any economic possible lead in Lost Temple would be one of the few ways to get ahead and win against Protoss. Also, Zerg is getting Zerglings to defend the two gate, not win the game. Protoss is on the offensive, and when Zerg opens with 9 pool it just makes it that much harder to win whether you fend off the attack or not. The big problem with 9 pool or 12 pool is that you lack a significant amount of larva. The Protoss just needs to delay his attack if he scouts an early pool then move out with 3 Zealots and 3 Probes. If timed right the Zerg cannot defend this head-on at the moment and will have to dance and harass out of place units at the side and delay the movement to the base. Any wrong move and the zerglings get snapped into zergling cookies. And no, the same can't be said for Protoss - when your working off 3 larva with one Hatchery against a Protoss that can only go stronger as time goes on with constant Probe production after cutting a few for an initial attack, you have to either fend off the initial attack with minimal loss or just counter successfully and eat away at that mineral line.
My solution: Now I thought about this for a bit and I can honestly say I think this may be the solution but I really want to hear input from people. I think an in-base 12 hatch is probably the best build against a two gate. Now, being me, I scout with my 9th drone since I really like to get a feel for what my opponent is doing. And I'm not an A- Korean; an early drone scouting at 9 only delays my Spawning Pool by less than 2 seconds, it won't be extremely crucial unless it happens to be close positions vs. double gate. But that is exactly what I am scouting for. If I scout anything other than a double gate I think a hatchery in the main base is a horrible idea, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
(GomTV: SAVIOR VS FREE ON REQUIEM - SAVIOR DID A IN-BASE HATCHERY BEFORE POOL)
I did see Savior vs Free yesterday on GomTV and my assumption is on maps such as Requiem and Lost Temple where it isn't (or wasn't) ideal to fast expand allows the Zerg to pick apart the Protoss opening build into either two gate or one gate tech. The "what the fuck" moment however is Lost Temple has viable fast expand locations. So now, Protoss can adapt this homosexual strategy to Lost Temple while as Requiem still would be a little hard to pull off verse an aggressive Zerg. But anyways, back to the point, I think an in-base 2 hatch verse two gate (possibly even one-gate tech?) may be the answer to properly defending the Protoss and still holding up a sufficient economy.
One-Gate Tech
Unfortunately I think (not trying to be biased) that Protoss gets away with having an advantage using one gate tech. As I have said that the positions are close, so a Zerg can get a decent advantage by opening with 9 pool against a Protoss who is one gate teching. Whether the Zerg can get the Zerglings into the Protoss base is a timing issue and whether the Protoss can pull two probes and position them on the ramp with the Zealot in tiime. If the Zerg cannot break the ramp or decides to play it safe and just remain outside the base, then you most likely lose all advantage you had and are behind.
My reasoning is this: Close positions will benefit the player in power. The Zerg opening on a low economy strategy that deals no damage is a blow to the balls. Now on Lost Temple, it is an even bigger blow since you will have delayed tech and economy, BUT then you will have a Protoss that will move out in a short distance with their choice of tech. Even sair/dt will rip apart a Zerg. Everything the Protoss can do on this map other than fast expand pins a Zerg down from getting a third base.
Now I know that the purpose of one gate tech for sair/dt is not only scouting but so the Protoss can take an expansion while keeping the Zerg to only two bases. The difference though compared to other maps? Well - the Zerg is way more limited. Instead of picking through any expansions you want you will be limited to taking what is most likely counter-clockwise of you.
6o'clock start - you will not be able to take 12o'clock nor 2o'clock. The only good choice i 8o'clock since 12 and 2 are very close to each other and are at a fairly long distance from the Zerg. If the Protoss gets a Dark Templar at one of those expansions the Zerg will have to transport his Zerglings from across the map, making now his expansion open. The middle ground between 6o'clock and 2 or 12 means that there is a huge opening for the Protoss to eventually enter. If the Protoss starts at 8o'clock then that sucks because that is the only expansion I can think has some distance from the Protoss and is somewhat easier to maneuver back and forth from with the Zerg. (Not to mention that the choke is somewhat better so you can then secure the expansion on top later which would be vital in a macro game.
12o'clock start - Of course best choice to take is 2o'clock expansion. If Protoss is at 2o'clock then 8o'clock is a good choice but just leaves that gap I was talking about. Especially at close distances, Zerg will have troubles defending harass. If something hits the 3rd at 8o'clock and the Protoss is at 2o'clock and decides to then hit the expansion near your main you will need to be steady on your toes.
8o'clock start - Decent expansion but total shit for a 3rd. A Protoss on one gate tech will just keep the field in his power for a while. The closest bases you can take are 12 and 6, and if you are forced to take 12 (Protoss is at 6) then you will have the unfortunate problem of having troubles defending a fourth late game.
2o'clock start - Obviously take 12 if Protoss isn't there. If he is, take 6. 12 is a good decision and isn't so bad. 2main 12(3rd expo) and 12main 2(3rd expo) are good positions to handle one gate tech as in going into mid-game with a decent economy.
Okay so I said how I feel the positions reflect how the Zerg can deal with opening up mid-game verse a Protoss who opened one-gate tech. But how to ACTUALLY deal with it? Beats me. You could open 3 hatch hydra speed with ovie speed. This seems like a safe build, but timing wise you will probably not be able to deal any damage to the Protoss expansion (considering that he did expand after pumping out his sair/dt/ht). However I think it allows you to gain control of the map for a bit and allows you to get your 3rd expansion down. Although a bit late, it risks the moment where you realize the Protoss just snapped your Overlords at your 3rd and income 2 Dark Templars and all you can do is sit there and cry. After getting the 3 hatch hydra speed ovie and 3rd expo down I'd probably tech to Lurkers and try as hard as hell to get a contain going.
================================================
In general, on a different thought, I think a good way to play ZvP mid-game is get a Lurker contain going. I know I'm jumbling all over the place but these are just basically me painting some post with my thoughts so whatever. The expansions have a very limited opening, except 12, so I'd imagine that Lurker contains with Scourge are probably very viable. Also research drop so you can knock out any island expansions.
Fast Expand
Zerg can't win unless mass ling or early hydra rush gg.
I'm totally clueless how a Zerg can play a macro game verse a Protoss FE.
My only thought was Zerg can open 3 hatch Muta and put lots of pressure on while taking a 3rd base. PLS HALP.
