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Chill, if you could read this over and tell me what this would be under and change the title to what it would be like under the new guidelines and I will know for later dates.
This is one strategy that many people will not use. The reason? It's more micro intensive than most Protoss builds. Another problem is how much gas it uses. With only your natural and main you can run 1 stargate and maybe 3-4 gateways with dragoons consistently. This will lead to a lot of extra minerals which I will give points to how to use later on.
Reason people use this build is a surprise factor, but the best thing about this build is that even after the initial surprise. It is still very effective. What can the Terran really do to stop this under normal circumstances? Only really go air where your corsairs own anyways.
So now lets discuss a bit about the build itself. You will start a like normal but instead of teching citadel and templar archives like normal you will throw down a stargate followed by a fleet beacon. Start upgrading Dweb followed by the energy upgrade. Do all this while making dragoons, a few zealots, corsairs, and a shuttle. It will be needed should the terran push.
Notice how just going into mid-game this strategy is becoming more micro intensive already? The corsairs need to keep being pumped up til about 6-9. Any more than that is just a waste.
Now you should have little to no gas all game from mid-game on. You know zealots are damn near useless so you don't need that many of them. As useless as they are for attacking they are still awesome at drawing fire for the tanks that can still attack, saving your dragoons.
Of course this strategy is only really good on certain maps. Which maps this is good on? Well maps with a non-buildable center and wide-open. Maps like Python and Luna are good. Maps this strategy is not that good on have little gas. Maps like Luna or Nostalgia. Although the none buildable center is a nice field position it's not important just a plus for the protoss.
Excess minerals will become a large problem with this build. So what you will do is like a refugee protoss build. Mass expand everywhere not caring if you lose the expansions. If one stays alive thats a bonus to you and you have the minerals to do this so why not? If you max mass gateways, because of the reason to re-max as fast as possible because your gas will rise.
P.S. I plan to edit with more information and replays later.
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The reason this kind of build is rarely used and sucks a lot is because corsairs are super gas intensive, dweb takes forever for the energy to build up, and corsairs are EASILY dismantled.
1 vessel w/ emp and your cloud of corsairs are now useless, with my tanks raping everything you have. I think mines work under web as well. I really don't see you getting enough energy to stop an early / mid game push with the build you provided. With the kind of macro Terrans are getting these days, 3-4 gates just ISN'T GOING TO CUT IT.
If you wanted to make something like this viable, transition to this build after you have taken your 3rd and 4th, then start building carriers shortly afterwards.
I didn't want to come off as mean, but seriously this is probably more cute then useful.
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thedeadhaji
39472 Posts
I'm not really sure why you say zealots are useless, then in the very next sentence you say "they are still awesome at drawing fire", which is... their purpose in pvt --;;.
You say "micro your shit", but don't explain what you should focus on, what your game plan is, or how to deal with the various terran options to try to combat this. What if he is turley, how do you respond? What if he timing pushes, but is very good at spreading his tanks - now what? How should the dwebs be managed - they are high energy and you don't have that many shots with them. etcetc. As it stands, this op isn't super helpful, and hopefully you can add the missing parts to make it better.
FYI The hands down best map for this build is Arkanoid. Well, more like Arkanoid sucks so much pvt, that the pros were resorting to goon sair -> carrier builds towards the end of the map's lifespan.
GI loves this build.
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Norway28263 Posts
way more cute than good and should only be used to embarass people whom you are better than or in games where you got a significant advantage early.
trying to do this against a scouting opponent without an advantage is just gonna get you run over if you do it early, if you do it later on instead of going carrier, you can get away with it without being run over, but then it's just significantly weaker than carrier or arbiter.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
As haji noted, I'm a big fan of this style PvT. I've discussed this before, at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=48938 , and I honestly think it's a great kind of surprise tactic to be thrown in a bo5 series or something. (The rep there is pretty bad, but I've had better games with it.)
The main counter to this, I believe, is a more-vult heavy army that mines aggressively. While I am unsure as to the effect of mines under web, it doesn't matter - you have to web the tanks, and there is no way you will be able to have enough webs to web the minefields as well. So what ends up is a goon army that can't take advantage of dweb's relatively short span, because it's too busy shooting a million mines in the way.
But the biggest reason this works against a Terran is that 1) the timing is totally different, and 2) if he doesn't find your stargate is that he will only scan and see shit-tons of goons, thereby encouraging him to slack on his vulture count and make primarily tanks. A Terran army that is mostly tank is relatively easy to beat with sair/goon - it's very difficult to spread tanks so well that dweb can't seriously cripple your forces. During a battle, in each round of webs, I've never really needed to cast more than 5 or 6. And many Terrans will not think of getting vessel + EMP even if they do scout your sairs.
What I like to do is go a 2gate range build into expo, taking the nat gas fast, and then with a stargate added relatively soon after. I stay on 2 base for a bit longer than usual, since min-onlies don't matter nearly as much, and then the beacon goes up right after the stargate, with web + energy upg (energy upg is VERY VERY important!) researching ASAP. While theoretically only about 5-6 sairs are needed, I like to make a couple more, just in case I have a couple battles back-to-back. I don't usually have too much of a problem with surplus minerals, since once you stop sair production you are going pure goon, which uses up minerals faster than gas. But with the surplus minerals, I expand like a madman. Defending PvT is a little easier in sair/goon, since for once chokes somewhat work to your advantage.
Alternatively, the minerals can be spent on zeal-bombing. The sairs will be auto-targeted (I believe) by goliaths and turrets, so even if the middle is buildable you can get off some good zeal bombs. Web some tanks, then drop some zealots near there to encourage the non-webbed tanks to shoot at it and blow it up.
After I break his first push or his main army or something, I either follow up with just carriers (since you have the beacon anyway), or I mass and end the game soon after.
Maps this is good on:
Luna (unbuildable middle, no easy third gas) Lost Temple (sairs rock against cliff harass, since you can just web the tanks until you can get reinforcements up there) Arkanoid (obviously) Desperado (LOL)
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wouldn't be better to research energy upgrade before dweb so your later corsair start with extra energy? given that you assume that you won't need dweb until both upgrades are finished, don't really know the timing for this build.
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GrandInquisitor, i think this build is most viable on TAU.. since 3 gases are easy there
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the only way it can really work in games vs good opponents without a big advantage is if you catch them in a kinda late timing rush where they just leapfrog siege tanks and dont bother setting up a slow push in that situation you can catch a bunch of tanks under like 4 dwebs and take out everything with minimal losses with a good goon flank.
but if they slow push, timing rush too quickly, or play passively (assuming they spread their tanks properly), the sairs are really just a waste of money.
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the sairs are really just a waste of money.
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United States24342 Posts
I know dweb has been discussed before but I don't think it's a suitable alternative to arbiters+stasis. I haven't seen examples of it, but I'd think it might make a decent transitional strategy when going carriers after having a large ground army (~4 sairs with dweb upgraded). Later you could use leftover sairs for additional dweb or scouting while massing and controlling carriers.
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is awesome32244 Posts
I have only seen it work once in a "serious" game.
The guy went normal FE build. added one hidden stargate and started making sairs and rallied them in a blind spot. Took his 3rd and when the T came out he came out from 2 or 3 ways. The T naturally sieged (clumped), 3 dwebs, pushed into his base and won.
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United States24342 Posts
On September 30 2007 14:01 IntoTheWow wrote: I have only seen it work once in a "serious" game.
The guy went normal FE build. added one hidden stargate and started making sairs and rallied them in a blind spot. Took his 3rd and when the T came out he came out from 2 or 3 ways. The T naturally sieged (clumped), 3 dwebs, pushed into his base and won. Cool. Also I remember seeing this in a pimpest plays video... is that what you were thinking of or a different game?
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Wow, I just saw your replay GrandInquisitor, and that was awesome.
Thanks for the tips, I am going to try this build.
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is awesome32244 Posts
On September 30 2007 14:10 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2007 14:01 IntoTheWow wrote: I have only seen it work once in a "serious" game.
The guy went normal FE build. added one hidden stargate and started making sairs and rallied them in a blind spot. Took his 3rd and when the T came out he came out from 2 or 3 ways. The T naturally sieged (clumped), 3 dwebs, pushed into his base and won. Cool. Also I remember seeing this in a pimpest plays video... is that what you were thinking of or a different game?
The pimpest game was on LT i think. The one im thinking of was a PvT on Luna. P was on 7 and T on 11 o'clock.
P built his stargate on the bottom spot of his base and rallied them behind his exp, over the "water".
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I've seen Satanik do it in a couple of games vs good opponents and won. I've attempted it a couple of times myself, but mainly vs lesser enemies. The issue here is TIMING. Somehow you have to keep the terran in his base until you have a couple of sairs with dweb ready and if you catch him offguard on an open area where you can flank, it's over. Sure, it's about the same problem with carriers, but the main thing that differs with carriers is that they can still win you the game even after your army is demolished. It's not a bad build by itself, still too risky and pimp to do as any kind of standard build.
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there was an asuka vs nada game, where this strategy won. on luna ~~
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Norway28263 Posts
satanik used sair / carrier mostly tho
but yeah sataniks pvt was very very different from the pvt of any other good player and he used dweb a lot, and won a lot too but just as crucial to his play was that his low probe numbers allowed him to have different timing from most players.
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On September 30 2007 09:50 PePe QuiCoSE wrote: wouldn't be better to research energy upgrade before dweb so your later corsair start with extra energy? given that you assume that you won't need dweb until both upgrades are finished, don't really know the timing for this build. 2nd
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