• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:19
CEST 23:19
KST 06:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments2[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon10[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes157BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch2Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes SC4ALL: A North American StarCraft LAN Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon Why Storm Should NOT Be Nerfed – A Core Part of Pr
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Stellar Fest KSL Week 80 StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
Starcraft: Destruction expansion pack? StarCraft - Stratospace. Very rare expansion pack StarCraft Stellar Forces had bad maps ASL ro8 Upper Bracket HYPE VIDEO BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch [ASL20] Ro16 Group C
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Borderlands 3 General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Big Programming Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Too Many LANs? Tournament Ov…
TrAiDoS
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2151 users

Defusion by terrain – interesting Mine behaviour

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-27 11:15:58
February 21 2021 17:00 GMT
#1
This clip was brought up on the NHFFA discord, together with the question: "Why was there no damage here?"


The answer, it turns out, is rather interesting, courtesy of tscmoo:

tscmoo on SSCAIT discord wrote:
spider mines explode through the "castspell" iscript opcode, this leads to this check https://github.com/OpenBW/openbw/blob/master/bwgame.h#L14942 and then this spider mine specific check https://github.com/OpenBW/openbw/blob/master/bwgame.h#L14610 which, because of this line https://github.com/OpenBW/openbw/blob/master/bwgame.h#L5656, checks if the spider mine itself is on walkable terrain. if the spider mine is not on walkable terrain, then it does not deal any damage

bw pathfinding being what it is, put the spider mine on unwalkable terrain the moment it got in range
also slightly worth noting that this walkability test is buildtile/megatile resolution, so effectively it checks if more than 12 minitiles within that are are walkable
in that regard, the bw pathfinding might not be doing anything wrong here, it's just a resolution issue with the walkability test.


To add some more background to that:
  • Each terrain tile is made up of 4×4 minitiles, which are either walkable or unwalkable.
  • At game-start the game classifies each tile with at least 4 unwalkable minitiles as unwalkable, all other tiles as walkable.
  • Whether a ground unit can occupy a location depends solely on the minitile walkability property.
  • The tile the mine from the clip detonates on has 8/16 unwalkable minitiles and is thus classified as an unwalkable tile, which makes the Mine dud out.


Conclusion: Near unwalkable terrain, such as cliff edges, in particularlyin tight chokes, or doodads, there is a certain chance that Mine damage will be completely mitigated.

EDIT: Here's the whole situation recreated in ScmDraft with overlays showing the relevant walkabily properties:
+ Show Spoiler [Show animation] +
[image loading]


EDIT2: Thanks to StaticNine for another video demonstrating the effect. Note that the video title does not explain the conditions and cause of the effect correctly:
+ Show Spoiler [show video] +
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2040 Posts
February 21 2021 17:36 GMT
#2
Just another argument for PvT imba. :D
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1418 Posts
February 21 2021 19:56 GMT
#3
And they complain about goon AI...
EMPaThy789
Profile Joined July 2009
New Zealand878 Posts
February 22 2021 02:54 GMT
#4
Time to lose all my dragoons trying to abuse this in a game.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10196 Posts
February 22 2021 03:22 GMT
#5
I love how this one clip is getting so much traction. My goon is a hero now, and his tale will be echoed throughout Auir.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-22 06:01:36
February 22 2021 06:01 GMT
#6
what an intriguing 20+ yr old game

thx for sharing
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
February 22 2021 10:13 GMT
#7
On February 22 2021 12:22 FlaShFTW wrote:
I love how this one clip is getting so much traction. My goon is a hero now, and his tale will be echoed throughout Auir.

Wait till Bisu finds out – and perfects his cliff-hugging technique
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
February 22 2021 13:35 GMT
#8
Cool and all, my question then is how do i know where the unwalkable terrain is? Is it randomized on game start or in map editor?

No way of knowing?
-.-
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
February 22 2021 14:26 GMT
#9
If you want to know for sure, the easiest way it to open the map in ScmDraft:
[image loading]
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1418 Posts
February 22 2021 14:58 GMT
#10
Jeez, no wonder stuff gets stuck on ramps sometimes...
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
February 22 2021 15:04 GMT
#11
The red is unwalkable tiles. As I explained where stuff can go is determined on the minitile level, which is the grey overlay.
As far as this topic is concerned: Grey prohibits movement, red makes Mines dud.
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1418 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-22 19:12:19
February 22 2021 19:10 GMT
#12
Just one quick question: What exactly do you mean by "grey prohibits movement"?

From your explanation above - 'ground units can occupy walkable mini-tiles' - I had the impression that units can walk/move on walkable mini-tiles, despite the whole tile being classified as unwalkable. Maybe only by patch-finding accident, but isn't that what the mine in the video did, no?

Or did you mean: "Normally units won't step on walkable mini-tiles if the whole tile is unwalkable"?
Are units being pushed off of a walkable mini-tile (in an unwalkable whole-tile) should they accidentally move onto it?

Thx in advance.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-22 20:28:46
February 22 2021 20:25 GMT
#13
Units can occupy any walkable space they can fit in. But if the tile is flagged unwalkable any mine explosions on it will be duds. The mine can move onto the tile because it is partly walkable (has walkable minitiles), but doesn't deal damage because the whole tile is flagged as unwalkable.

Or, to be very technical about it:
  • A ground unit's collision box may not overlap with any unwalkable minitiles
  • If a ground unit overlaps with unwalkable terrain it will be force-moved to the "nearest" (according to the game's idea of nearest…) walkable area (this just as a side note, it is not relevant for the effect discussed in this thread).
  • The centre of the collision box (rounded up coordinates) is the actual unit position, which is what is checked to determine the terrain flag checks for the unit.


Maybe it's not quite clear what I mean with grey, because the grey overlay actually looks dark red under the red overlay… Can you see that there are two overlays visible on that image, the darker one with 4× the resolution of the other? Maybe I should make a gif…
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1418 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-23 09:57:55
February 23 2021 09:52 GMT
#14
Thx Freakling, it's all cleared up now that you mentioned that the grey overlay is where it's deep red.

I think you're fine if you maybe just use the terms "deep red/light red" instead of "grey/red" in your above post.

Other than that, precise in-depth BW-knowledge as always.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
February 23 2021 10:10 GMT
#15
I added an animation to the OP that shows the terrain analysis step by step.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
February 23 2021 18:40 GMT
#16
Nice!
-.-
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-23 20:30:27
February 23 2021 20:13 GMT
#17
So there are mini-tiles that are either walkable or unwalkable, but a tile as a whole is either flagged as walkable or unwalkable? Are there any other circumstance where a whole tile being flagged walkable or unwalkable matters? Other than building placment presumably. Scarab duds too due to this perhaps?

I guess with this info the best way to make a spider mine dud is make it hit a unit on the sides of a ramp or throw your unit to a corner and hope for the best.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-25 20:13:14
February 24 2021 10:15 GMT
#18
On February 24 2021 05:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So there are mini-tiles that are either walkable or unwalkable, but a tile as a whole is either flagged as walkable or unwalkable? Are there any other circumstance where a whole tile being flagged walkable or unwalkable matters? Other than building placment presumably.
Pathfinding regions are generated and connected based on the walkability and terrain level tile flags (both generated from the respective minitile flags at game-start), so indirectly they have a huge bearing on long-range pathfinding and a plethora of associated behaviours.

Buildability is only determined by the buildability flag, a game-generated "partially walkable" flag (which is set as soon as one minitile of a tile in unwlkable) and a creep flag for Zerg (there are some special cases regarding partially unwalkable, but buildable tiles).
Creep spread is only determined by the buildability flag though (and has some unintended buggy interaction with a deprecated "flipped doodad sprite" flag).

Scarab duds too due to this perhaps?
Read the quote from the OP, follow the references! The relevant flag check is specifically hardcoded for Mines only.
Scarabs dud due to timeout, when they cannot reach their target due to other units blocking the way, or when the Reaver owner aborts the attack (gives the Reaver a stop order).

I guess with this info the best way to make a spider mine dud is make it hit a unit on the sides of a ramp or throw your unit to a corner and hope for the best.
Something like this. In practice it is situationally useful to know and somewhat luck based, I guess.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-25 20:10:40
February 24 2021 10:20 GMT
#19
double post, delete please
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-25 20:51:16
February 25 2021 20:50 GMT
#20
Thanks Freakling, for the informative answers.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
21:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #16
davetesta37
Liquipedia
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
16:05
FSL Archon Mode Competition
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 178
JuggernautJason158
CosmosSc2 77
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 20164
Shuttle 466
LaStScan 108
League of Legends
JimRising 325
Counter-Strike
fl0m1692
Stewie2K435
Fnx 220
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor237
Other Games
summit1g4736
FrodaN4295
tarik_tv3823
Grubby3622
shahzam421
KnowMe133
ToD113
XaKoH 102
Dewaltoss90
Trikslyr63
TKL 50
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1267
gamesdonequick756
angryscii36
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 50
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 21
• FirePhoenix8
• Adnapsc2 6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21725
League of Legends
• Doublelift4973
Other Games
• imaqtpie800
• Scarra778
• WagamamaTV241
• Shiphtur200
• tFFMrPink 22
Upcoming Events
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
10h 41m
RSL Revival
12h 41m
Classic vs TBD
WardiTV Invitational
13h 41m
Online Event
18h 41m
Wardi Open
1d 13h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 18h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
LiuLi Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Maestros of the Game
6 days
Clem vs Reynor
[BSL 2025] Weekly
6 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-18
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.