EPTHow to Improve?
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raplacay
9 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: I have been playing this game everyday for a year half or so, often for many hours at a time, I have defiantly seen improvement, but I am still not very good. Is it that most people have been playing longer than me? Is it the race I play? Do I simply need more deliberate practice? Do I need better understanding Of the matchups? Does it just take a long time?All of the above? obviously there's no way for you to know where I'm at. I am looking for more of a discussion than a course, Maybe help out some guys (not just me) trying to get better at the game of course any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you! Funny thread name because there’s a guide made by Ver himself with the same name. It’s in the pinned thread “Collection of strategy threads.” Personally, what I think it takes to improve is self awareness, humility, a good mindset, and shrewd analytical skills. I’ll be back to edit my post but nice conversation starter. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
you know what I would add : make your style, and experiment for it. That way everything is more fun. There is always some room to make your own style due to the many tactical options at least, and also strategic. If it's more fun it's easier to practice and you can get better like that, plus you're adapting the way you play to what you can do. Maybe you run into some limits of the game like that cause some choices aren't good, but there is still quite some room to do things your way. And running into the limits is good to learn and get better, get a strong idea where you can go or not and why.. | ||
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: I have been playing this game everyday for a year half or so, often for many hours at a time, Nice to have you here, and grats for practicing hard for already half a year. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: I have defiantly seen improvement, but I am still not very good. Everyone's play looks (more or less) aweful until they are at least A rank I'd say. It's relative, obviously, but 95% would probably say they're not very good, even if they play for 10 years. The more you learn about the game, the more aweful it looks if you watch your replays, hehe. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: Is it that most people have been playing longer than me? Yes, muuch longer. But you can overtake certain types of players quickly if you put the necessary work in. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: Is it the race I play Maybe a little, some have a rougher start than others, my opinion. But I wouldn't go into the direction to blame it on that. Play the race you like and overcome the problems. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: Do I simply need more deliberate practice? 100% yes. Watch good players meticulously, study your own replays relentlessly, practice your mechanics and build orders a lot. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: Do I need better understanding Of the matchups? 100% yes. Knowing what to do, down to small detail, is absolutely essential in such an old, figured-out game. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: Does it just take a long time? I guess you've played a few hundred hours by now? All people who play have probably played many hundred, most probably thousands of hours. If they put in the same work that you did, obviously they would be ahead. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: All of the above? I think so. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: obviously there's no way for you to know where I'm at. A replay or two could give us an idea. On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: I am looking for more of a discussion than a course, Maybe help out some guys (not just me) trying to get better at the game of course any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you! If you like the game, the races, the overall design, the mechanical difficulty, the (ex)pro-scene, definitelly stay with it. But you'll need a long breath, you have to think of it like a marathon, with years of learning and experiencing new stuff, seeing yourself improve constantly if you're dedicated, but I doubt that this game will ever give you the impression that you're a "complete" player, at least not for many years. Playing and studying all by yourself can become dull over time though. You could try to find a group of people that you like to play with, watch each others games, discuss and chat. I think we need more social twitch streamers or something, like L_Master, to catch up to how people learn games these days. That's what the korean ex-pros' streams do basically, but well, they're ex-pros... | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
This includes hotkey controlling, f-locations, being able to reach all hotkeys without missclicking (which could really ruin your game in a heated situation), 100% mouse accuracy with fast speed, great enough APM to be able to do all stuff/have full control. 200 is bare minimum if you only do useful clicks. No matter how sh!tty situation you are in, better mechanics most of the time will win you the game because you more or less outplays your opponent by mechanics. This could be for example muta control, marine/medic control, vultures/tanks control.. You can name MANY situations where mechanics gives you better edge than your opponent if hes weaker than you mechanically. Open a replay of a game you've lost. Watch carefully how you control your units and how IDLE you are in each situation of the game, may it be Macro or Micro, all situations... If you are idle in a situation you shouldnt be, this is a place to improve. Most people think they dont understand the game, where most of the time its just that they are bad at controlling their forces that lose the game. You can be at heavy disadvantage and still win a game. This Koreans show every day. Why are Koreans the best? Because they practice this stuff DAILY to perfection. Its easy to watch a korean play a game and copy their build etc. But what is hard to copy is their mechanics. Because this takes time and a lot of specific practice. I've no idea how Koreans practice their mechanics. But whatever they do.. Its effective. Personally i watch Zero(twitch) play his Zerg at all times. And it gives me a lot to think about. The gameplay itself of his game is nothing special but his Control.. Is wow.. Pretty sure 100% in here find it hard to watch Flash's stream as he flicks around so much with his screen doing stuff you can barely see before he moves position again. Its a masterpiece. | ||
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raplacay
9 Posts
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ciel123
12 Posts
- A lot of Korean SC2 pros stream in English (since they stream on Twitch), whereas BW pros stream on Afreeca and only in Korean. This makes it less enticing to watch them and learn. - You can learn more from pro replays in SC2 because the replay system more advanced. You can see things like hotkeys, camera movement, etc. - The foreign SC2 community is larger and has people of all skill levels, while the foreign BW community is smaller and mostly comprised of veterans that have played for many years. This discourages you as a beginner. I'd say about 80% of my current BW skill is what I was able to transition from SC2. 20% is very little to gain over a year... | ||
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
On September 27 2019 14:13 ciel123 wrote: I've also been playing BW for about a year, after about 4 years of SC2, and my rate of improvement in BW has been far slower than it was in SC2. This is largely due to BW being less accessible than SC2 for reasons like: - A lot of Korean SC2 pros stream in English (since they stream on Twitch), whereas BW pros stream on Afreeca and only in Korean. This makes it less enticing to watch them and learn. - You can learn more from pro replays in SC2 because the replay system more advanced. You can see things like hotkeys, camera movement, etc. - The foreign SC2 community is larger and has people of all skill levels, while the foreign BW community is smaller and mostly comprised of veterans that have played for many years. This discourages you as a beginner. I'd say about 80% of my current BW skill is what I was able to transition from SC2. 20% is very little to gain over a year... You name some true points, ciel, why BW-knowledge requires some more individual searching and can be hard to be gained in interactive ways. But how could that ratio that you mention be much different if you switch from one thing to another that is very similar? It wouldn't seem "fair" to compare the two and say that the one makes you feel less improvement because you cannot re-live that basics-learning-process with the other in the first place. If you've learned to drive in and service a modern car, picked up all the basics which is naturally the faster part of the learning-process, and then switch to an older, a bit more unmanageable car, obviously most of what you do in the newly acquired car would be transfered from your former driving-skill and knowledge about cars. Improving at BW gets quite hard from some point on, like with anything, but I cannot share the impression that it (the improving itself) is particularly harder than in other games. Unless you underestimate the unlimited skill-ceiling of this game... that could make it hard to spot where you actually do improve. | ||
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
 What I find the most important thing in getting better is macro. I've searched for how to improve in SC and this was the most mentioned I think and now I totally agree with it. With good macro and very basic micro skills you can beat a ton of players. My macro still sucks but much better than in January. Just watched a game from my 2nd stream, oh that guy was a total noob. Not using control groups, not using F hotkeys, nightmare of a building placement... (and I don't even want to mention the macro) These are must-haves in order to improve. Also as others mentioned checking your replay is pretty important, to see what was the main reason you lost the game. I used to do this systematically but I stopped some months ago thinking I know better, but maybe I should continue, it helps dealing with losses better as well. Another thing is that when I'm a bit stuck regarding something or don't know what to do in a certain situation I ask. I ask in my clan (which helped me a lot) if I don't really get an answer (or am curious from other perspectives) I ask on foreign BW discord, or sometimes directly a very good player. They can give such good insights. 2 things came to my mind which helped me a ton: sending second probe out in PvZ is crucial to know what's going on, checking with probe or units in PvP to see what the other has is also a must-have; and also much much more. Thanks everyone! Sorry this post may have been a bit too much about me, just thought sharing some of my experience can help. | ||
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
On September 26 2019 02:10 raplacay wrote: I have been playing this game everyday for a year half or so, often for many hours at a time, I have defiantly seen improvement, but I am still not very good. Is it that most people have been playing longer than me? Is it the race I play? Do I simply need more deliberate practice? Do I need better understanding Of the matchups? Does it just take a long time?All of the above? obviously there's no way for you to know where I'm at. I am looking for more of a discussion than a course, Maybe help out some guys (not just me) trying to get better at the game of course any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you! What’s your MMR right now? “everyday for a year half”, I guess you should be around 1500. Just check my post: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/starcraft/t/play-like-jaedong-step-by-step-for-newbies/74 If you are T/P user, the pattern will be the same, good luck :-) And you need a mentor imo, he can help to teach some tricks and analyze your rep. Most important things for beginners imo: Economic control, do not stop producing workers, 2 workers per mineral, 3/4 workers per gas. Map understanding, FS CB etc. Matchup understanding. Scouting. Forces producing. Forces grouping. | ||
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ciel123
12 Posts
On September 27 2019 17:07 Highgamer wrote: You name some true points, ciel, why BW-knowledge requires some more individual searching and can be hard to be gained in interactive ways. But how could that ratio that you mention be much different if you switch from one thing to another that is very similar? It wouldn't seem "fair" to compare the two and say that the one makes you feel less improvement because you cannot re-live that basics-learning-process with the other in the first place. If you've learned to drive in and service a modern car, picked up all the basics which is naturally the faster part of the learning-process, and then switch to an older, a bit more unmanageable car, obviously most of what you do in the newly acquired car would be transfered from your former driving-skill and knowledge about cars. Improving at BW gets quite hard from some point on, like with anything, but I cannot share the impression that it (the improving itself) is particularly harder than in other games. Unless you underestimate the unlimited skill-ceiling of this game... that could make it hard to spot where you actually do improve. You're right that the large transferable skill between the two games should mean that there is less to learn in one after you learn the other, so the ratio I mentioned wasn't very meaningful. Still, I just wanted to emphasize the importance of resource accessibility (streams, replays, community forums, etc.) and how it plays a role in your rate of improvement in a game like Starcraft. Actually, before SC2, I used to play another RTS, Age of Empires 3, a game from 2005 with no pro scene and a small community. Losses in that game were pretty discouraging sometimes because I didn't know what I could have done better, and I didn't know where to look to learn. That's what drove me towards SC2, where suddenly I felt like I had more information than I could even implement into my play. | ||
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Zaibakk
101 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/6ive1z/deliberate_practice_the_art_of_learning_in/ | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
2. understand why you are doing what 3. don't try to copy a single style shameless self promotion, two guides collected on several years of trying to help beginners pre-sc2. should be enough to overcome some of the most basic misunderstandings in the game. https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/104910-mechanics-of-starcraft https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basics | ||
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QuadroX
386 Posts
Idea #1. If you put in hours (10 games a day at least) and think critically about your mistakes - you will improve no matter what in different areas. You won't see it because everybody else who plays this game also take it seriously and improve. Your MMR might even drop from what you were a year ago. Some people improve faster, some are slower, but if you keep playing you will improve. If you feel like you hit the wall - it's all in your head. Idea #2. Mechanics are much more important than everything else. Once you're able to keep your APM high and comfortable macroing on 4 bases not getting supply blocked and keeping your money low, always producing THEN other areas of the game will open for you. You will discover that you can do something else once this is automated, like micro and harassment. This is HARD and takes time, months, years - depending on how much games you play. You can ignore everything else and improve just at this to the point when you feel you mastered it and feel comfortable. Control groups, hotkeys, F-keys all fall into this category. You should be comfortable producing having constant macro-cycles even in 30+ minute game. Idea #3. Build orders should be very crisp and optimized. If you float just 100 minerals - it could be crucial in the early game. Everything should be build ON TIME. No matter if it's cheese/timing attack build or late game macro-oriented build. Macro builds push your mechanics and game knowledge every time, so arguably they are more useful long-term. Also I strongly suggest trying CPL next season, it's very useful for improvement. This high mechanics ceiling is one of the things that push away newcomers coz it's stupidly hard to master. | ||
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chozen86
United States60 Posts
On September 28 2019 05:31 GeckoXp wrote: 1. Learn the control 2. understand why you are doing what 3. don't try to copy a single style shameless self promotion, two guides collected on several years of trying to help beginners pre-sc2. should be enough to overcome some of the most basic misunderstandings in the game. https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/104910-mechanics-of-starcraft https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basics Thank you for the self-promotion! :D These two guides are gems, I had seen the first one (mechanics of starcraft) but not the other, wish I'd seen them earlier. | ||
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