[I] Liquipedia Strat Update

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 03 2018 17:34 GMT

Updated 2019-01-05
Todo list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w7Pbiq1UrdhSK6srm1bH8RsD8m71tVbtVmQTS70p83o/edit?usp=sharing

RECENTLY COMPLETED PAGES
(Wiki)

%2B1 Sair/Speedlot (vs. Zerg)
Needs example games

(Wiki)

Rax CC Rax (vs. Zerg)
Needs image and example games

(Wiki)

Forge FE (vs. Zerg)
Needs modern example games

(Wiki)

1 Fact FE (vs. Terran)
Could use more example games and a transition section.

(Wiki)

Cannon Rush
Needs example games if possible

(Wiki)

28 Nexus (vs. Terran)
Needs image and example games

HOW TO HELP
If you are a player pick any of the builds on the to-do list and help us write! Ideally focus on high-priority pages, but if you have experience with any of the strategies feel free to dive in.

If you're not sure if you're good enough to help, tacking on examples of FPVODs/VODs or other resources like strat forum threads is very helpful. Feel free to post your additions here or add it straight to Liquipedia.

If you have any experience with Liquipedia, please help us reorganize! A lot of the older pages are messy (build orders all over the place, etc). Many of us don't have any Liquipedia experience, so any formatting will go a long way.

Check under here for more ideas of how you can help (open the "Original Post" tab):
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/436470-project-strat-update

+ Show Spoiler [old post] +

Hey all, as some of us may have noticed, a lot of the pages on Liquipedia are out of date. I know we already have a Project: Strat Update thread but it hasn't seen much activity lately. It would be nice (for new and old players) if we could update some of the old pages and create some new ones for more modern strategies

I think what we should focus on is:
1. Archiving or deleting old pages. Marking cheese and niche builds as such. Marking pages for update/cleanup.
2. Reworking the matchup pages to outline the general flow of the matchup and link to builds, rather than trying to have an all-encompassing matchup guide
3. Revising and creating pages for standard play and easy-to-execute cheese

ARCHIVING/DELETING/MARKING PAGES
Many of the older builds are dated and have more modern variants. Most pages could use some rewriting/updating. Some are just pointless pages

Example pages:
Archive (replace with modern builds): (Wiki)

Iloveoov Build (Wiki)

Double Armory (vs. Protoss)
Delete: (Wiki)

Shallow Two(vs. Protoss)
Rewrite: (Wiki)

1 Fact FE (vs. Terran)
Mark as cheese: (Wiki)

Sparks Terran
Mark as niche: (Wiki)

1 Factory Double Expand (vs. Protoss)

REWORKING MATCHUP PAGES
It may be helpful to create a template for matchup pages

Some of the pages are okay, but most are not very good. Most new players go to these pages first so updating them would be very helpful.

Example pages:
Good page (could be updated): (Wiki)

PVTBuilds
Bad page: (Wiki)

Terran vs. Terran Guide

Linking to Day[9]'s video guides would be very helpful as well.

REVISING/CREATING NEW BUILD ORDERS
It may be helpful to create a template for build order pages

Example pages:
Revise/rewrite: (Wiki)

1 Fact FE (vs. Terran)
Clean up: (Wiki)

%2B1 5 Rax
New page: 3 rax han bang https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/89286-the-art-of-tvz-han-bang-1-vessel-3-tank-timing

I've gone ahead and created a list of relatively standard builds and some typical/strong cheese builds. Relatively standard play is marked with two asterisks (**) and relatively strong, easy-to-execute cheeses are marked with one asterisk (*). Let me know if I'm missing anything, or if any builds seem questionable. I'm fairly certain for the Terran matchups, not as certain for the other matchups. Some of these pages already exist, but many of them are outdated (some more than others). Most of them could use a bit of clean up or updating.

+ Show Spoiler [terran] +

TvT openers
** Fac FE (vult FE, tank FE)
Rax Fe
Fac Port
TvT cheese
* 2 fact
2 port
TvT midgame
** 3 fact vult
** 2 fact gol/tank
** 5 fact (transition out of 3fac vult or 2fac gol/tank)

TvP openers
** Fac FE (siege and mines FE)
Rax FE
* FD (10/10 and 6 marine FD)
TvP cheese
* 2 fact (joyo, maybe gundam)
TvP midgame
** 5 fact
* Upgrade Terran (3/4base 2-0 or 2-1)
Fac cc port
Fac cc fac

TvZ openers
** Rax FE
Fact FE (vult FE)
TvZ cheese
* Sparks terran
BBS
TvZ midgame
** Rax cc rax aca
** 5 rax +1
** 3 rax han bang
* 3/4 Rax sunken break (ayumi)

+ Show Spoiler [zerg] +

ZvZ
** 9 pool gas
** 12 pool gas
12 hatch
Overgas
* Ling allin

ZvT openers
** 12 hatch
ZvT cheese
* 9 pool
9 pool speed
* Ling allin
ZvT midgame
2 hatch lurker
2 hatch muta
** 3 hatch lurker
** 3 hatch muta

ZvP openers
9 pool
* 9 pool speed
** Overpool
12 hatch
ZvP cheese
5 pool
* Zergling allin
* 3 hatch hydra
ZvP midgame
** 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra
3 hatch spire into 6 hatch hydra
** 5 hatch hydra (no spire)

+ Show Spoiler [protoss] +

PvP openers
** 1 gate core
2 gate
PvP cheese
Proxy 2 gate
3/4 gate goon
12 nexus
PvP midgame
* DT expand
** Gate robo gate
* 3 gate goon robo
** 2 base power

PvT openers
** 28 nexus
21 nexus
2 gate goon (incl 10/15)
1 base reaver
PvT cheese
12 nexus
2 gate (incl proxy)
Forward gate
* Bulldog
* DT expand
* 3/4 gate (incl proxy and speedlot)
PvT midgame
* 2 base power
** 3 gate 3rd
2 base reaver
2 base arbiter

PvZ openers
** Forge fe
Gate FE
PvZ cheese
* 2 gate (incl proxy)
1 gate core
PvZ midgame
** 1/1 timing
* 3 gate +1 speedlot (into 2star)
5 gate speedlot allin
sair/reaver
** 2 base power

HOW DO I HELP?
Players:
- Research modern builds and help us write.
- Find resources like example VODs/FPVODs, strat forum threads, etc.
- Post information in this thread or add it to liquipedia

Liquipedia experience:
- Help us get information from here into Liquipedia!
- Help us reorganize Liquipedia
- Template pages in particular would be very helpful

Check under here for more ideas of how you can help (open the "Original Post" tab):
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/436470-project-strat-update

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 03 2018 17:35 GMT

Let me know if this thread would be better combined with the older one. It hasn't seen posts in a while though

I'm planning on going through and marking articles for deletion, archival, or update sometime in the next week

GeckoXp

Germany2016 Posts

December 03 2018 18:21 GMT

I don't see a reason to delete a page or mark them as old. Only because something isn't used by Koreans doesn't mean it's helpful to know about it.

I'm also not a big fan of putting labels like 'easy to execute' underneath an article, this creates more problems than it solves. Splitting big pages should be discussed longer before going through with it, at some point people eventually have to read a ton of text. Brood War is a complicated and complex game, therefore a short version isn't available, and if it is, it's not very helpful. Usually.

That being said, any updates are welcome, especially when they help out new players finding the content they want.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 03 2018 18:30 GMT

I think some pages could definitely be marked as old or deleted outright

This is a more extreme example but here's a pretty useless page: (Wiki)

Shallow Two(vs. Protoss)

Here's an example of a dated build that isn't really viable any more, except in very niche situations (could be marked "outdated", "legacy", or "niche"): (Wiki)

2 Rax FE (vs. Zerg)

For the stronger/easy-to-execute builds, I was more thinking along the lines of recommending them in the strategy page, not marking them as "easy to execute".

Something like how this page does it: (Wiki)

PVTBuilds

ArmadA[NaS]

United States347 Posts

December 03 2018 18:38 GMT

Here's a korean wiki with some build orders/strategies, although it includes non-professional strategies like the new 29 arbiter tribunal or a fast scan -> scv/marine allin:
Namu Wiki
Koreans use different names for some openings (for example 3 dra double for 28 nex and T1 double for 21 nex)- might be useful to include these names in the liquipedia pages so the reader can search for more info if they want.

Also for the shallow two page- that was mong clowning on some random guy on Fish. Flash beat a 3k mmr toss going pure SK Terran but I don't think we should include that in a strategy guide for beginners lol.

GeckoXp

Germany2016 Posts

December 03 2018 19:15 GMT

On December 04 2018 03:30 Dead9 wrote:
I think some pages could definitely be marked as old or deleted outright

This is a more extreme example but here's a pretty useless page: (Wiki)

Shallow Two(vs. Protoss)

Here's an example of a dated build that isn't really viable any more, except in very niche situations (could be marked "outdated", "legacy", or "niche"): (Wiki)

I still do not see the point of deleting the article, rather than expanding on the basic information. If it features enough context, it might be useful. In any constellation, it won't harm. You'd only delete pages if there are technical reasons or it featured offending content.

For the latter: Sure, if you find good pages, you can mark them up. I haven't standardized all pages to the initial idea, mostly because there shoul be a good and established player looking over the edits. I have been barely C+/B- in my prime and I don't dare to judge most content in full detail.
However, be careful when you edit things and replace a bigger portal page - so every info will still be there and nothing is forgotten. Don't get me wrong, I'm feeling happy you try to do things, I just want to mention some traps when it comes to the wiki.

badpenny

Canada54 Posts

December 03 2018 20:14 GMT

holy shit lol that korean wiki is awesome

"When the drones are twelve, they build a pool of sponge . This build was originally a stable-oriented build to prevent bunniling , Cannon Rush, and Nurville , but as the drones control of the Zerg players evolves, 12 will be enough to stop the opponent's blade. Rather, I chose the 12 pools, and if the opponent is double, the zerg is starting poorly. It is the pole counter of the forward gate at the toss. Juggling is fast, too, because juggling keeps you collecting money. The twelve pools of the terranjeon are almost all builds for a two-hut mutal ."

Alpha-NP-

United States1242 Posts

December 04 2018 06:19 GMT

I agree with Xp. Don’t delete wiki pages.

Hatchet_man

Russian Federation249 Posts

December 04 2018 12:12 GMT

Hi Dead9!
I'm bad at English as well as at the strategies, but I can help with templating and organizing wiki.

I think first thing you need to do - is make general plan of what do you want to achieve. For example, revise all buildorder pages and make them similar and easy to understand using templates. Then, you can organize them on match-up pages.

Or you can go in opposite direction and revise match-up pages listing all the builds and strategies you can think of. There will be a lot of missing pages, but then you can slowly add them and get rid of red links.

Anyway, feel free to contact me if you need help with editing. Or you can join liquipedia discord https://discordapp.com/invite/x8kRmqu

Oh, and deleting pages is a bad option. You should never do it if there's a possibility to keep the page.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 04 2018 14:37 GMT

#10

Thanks for the suggestions. I was planning on going through this week and doing some planning.

Everyone seems to agree that deleting is bad. What should be done with pages like Shallow Two or Two Rax SCV Rush? Maybe label them as gimmicky builds?

GeckoXp

Germany2016 Posts

December 04 2018 15:48 GMT

#11

Plenty of options, depends on what you have in mind.

In my opinion Liquipedia serves two purposes: looking up raw numbers (the build order) and learning something. For the first, it doesn't matter how the page looks, as long as the build order is there. It's already there. If you want to learn, the best way is to really internalize and try to understand the concept. Hence, a too short article or a category might give you the wrong idea. Just because something is gimmicky doesn't mean it's bad or it would have no positive sides.

Consequently, it's always the best option to just expand the article with neutral formulations. Such as describing when it was used and which purpose was behind it. This way you can already transport a lot of meaning.

However, you probably will face the problem you can't expand every article or might want to prioritize standard play. In that case, you could start with designing an overview page, where you list the articles as "unusual" or simply put them more towards the bottom end. Problem solved.

You might still use categories, but be kind of careful with those. My experience was: If I start with putting up categories, I tend to forget half of the pages. Yet, that's personal choice, not really a rule you "have" to follow.

In any way, just starting to do something already is hugely appreciated.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 04 2018 16:54 GMT

#12

I added a spreadsheet that has a TODO page:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w7Pbiq1UrdhSK6srm1bH8RsD8m71tVbtVmQTS70p83o/edit?usp=sharing

For now I'm trying to organize which pages need to be written/rewritten or cleaned up

"Cleanup" = almost there, just needs some formatting, maybe some more writing
"Rewrite" = Needs a lot of work
"Write" = New pages and/or needs a lot of work

I finished the terran todo section, Zerg and Protoss still need to get done

GeckoXp

Germany2016 Posts

December 04 2018 17:08 GMT

#13

On December 05 2018 01:54 Dead9 wrote:
I added a spreadsheet that has a TODO page:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w7Pbiq1UrdhSK6srm1bH8RsD8m71tVbtVmQTS70p83o/edit?usp=sharing

For now I'm trying to organize which pages need to be written/rewritten or cleaned up

"Cleanup" = almost there, just needs some formatting, maybe some more writing
"Rewrite" = Needs a lot of work
"Write" = New pages and/or needs a lot of work

I finished the terran todo section, Zerg and Protoss still need to get done

Nice. Just glimpsed over it. Anyway, you two (?) should join discord to coordinate. I'm pretty sure there are people that can help you with a lot of technical stuff, the community actually is very cool when it comes to liquipedia. We'd be glad to have you.

I'd really like to offer you some help, but I couldn't promise to do much than sounding like a grumpy grandpa

Alpha-NP-

United States1242 Posts

December 04 2018 19:20 GMT

#14

On December 04 2018 23:37 Dead9 wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions. I was planning on going through this week and doing some planning.

Everyone seems to agree that deleting is bad. What should be done with pages like Shallow Two or Two Rax SCV Rush? Maybe label them as gimmicky builds?

Maybe a cheeze page? Might put them there.

WGT-Baal

France3418 Posts

December 04 2018 19:57 GMT

#15

On December 05 2018 04:20 Alpha-NP- wrote:

Show nested quote +

Maybe a cheeze page? Might put them there.

Might be pretty subjective though i m sure we can agree on a given set of all ins for each race mu (proxy gates: 9 9 as P, proxy BBS as T, 5 pool etc...) but then some strats are in between like nex 12 in pvp/pvt.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 04 2018 22:50 GMT

#16

I was thinking more for pages that have very little (or no) value like 2 rax scv rush (it's a shitty bbs) or shallow two (not a real build, dies to anything)

But that stuff can probably get left for later, not a big deal right now

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 05 2018 16:42 GMT

#17

Finished the todo page. If anyone would like to help, please dive in! PM me, post here, or find me on discord (roegi in the liquipedia discord, CPL discord, or FBW discord).

Alpha-NP-

United States1242 Posts

December 05 2018 18:59 GMT

#18

Too bad some gosus like Koget don’t take over this project.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 08 2018 19:19 GMT

#19

Completed pages:

Grammar/spelling/formatting check, content check would be appreciated on any of the following pages. Please let me know if you want to help out.

Dead9
1 Fact FE (vs. Terran)
(Wiki)

1 Fact FE (vs. Terran)
Could use more example games

f10eqq
Cannon Rush
(Wiki)

Cannon Rush
Needs example games if possible

seriosity
28 Nexus (vs. Terran)
(Wiki)

28 Nexus (vs. Terran)
Needs image and example games

BroodKingEXE

United States829 Posts

December 17 2018 21:36 GMT

#20

I'm down to add VODs since I've been watching a lot of KSL and ASL recently. Is there any general guidelines you guys think I should stick to (i.e. should it stick to the build order exactly, long/short game, etc.)?

iCCup.Trent

Argentina450 Posts

December 18 2018 03:58 GMT

#21

On December 18 2018 06:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I'm down to add VODs since I've been watching a lot of KSL and ASL recently. Is there any general guidelines you guys think I should stick to (i.e. should it stick to the build order exactly, long/short game, etc.)?

Short, rehearsed and to the point is best IMO.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

December 19 2018 16:53 GMT

#22

As close to the BO as possible but doesn't need to be exact, as long as it's the same strategy (28 nex often drops nex on 29 for example).

Ideally versus standard play with standard followup, or versus common builds that force a reaction (for example 28nex into robo 3gate 3rd vs mines fe is best, 28nex vs 2fac also good).

Long/short doesn't matter, preferably a decent game though.

For the pages that are missing vods entirely, anything is generally better than nothing.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

January 05 2019 20:17 GMT

#23

Completed pages:

Beast
(Wiki)

%2B1 Sair/Speedlot (vs. Zerg)
Needs example games

Dead9
(Wiki)

Rax CC Rax (vs. Zerg)
Needs example games

Khrane
(Wiki)

Forge FE (vs. Zerg)
Needs modern example games

awerti

227 Posts

January 29 2019 12:05 GMT

#24

Hey!

This is a great initiative. I will gladly help

I've been editing BW wiki recently. I'm not an admin or part of the staff, but I'm an editor, so I can move/rename pages, and accept/reject edits from new users, and do some other things that new users can't.

A few issues that I have seen related to strategy section

1. For every XvX matchup (like PvP) there are 3 pages with really average quality:
(Wiki)

PVTGuide

PVTBuilds

PvT Strategy

I would suggest that they are cleaned up first, I will start working on that. But I'm not a good enough player to to make sure that build quality and timings are correct

I can clear the formatting, remove parts that are clearly outdated, update build lists with links to build pages etc.

Some other things:
2. Many of the new build order pages are not linked to from any other pages, which means people are very unlikely to come across them. These are some pages that people in your initiative have created, and they are not linked anywhere. (Use Tools --> What links here on Liquipedia page to see that)
(Wiki)

Rax CC Rax (vs. Zerg)
(Wiki)

Gate Robo Gate (vs. Protoss)
(Wiki)

Hatch Gas Pool (vs. Terran)

3. Every Build order page must use the {{Infobox strategy}} template, because that adds categories to the page.

{{Infobox strategy
|name=Build order name
|race=X
|image=
|caption=
|matchups=XvX
|creator=Unknown
|popularized=
}}

4. Also, if you are a new user, your edits will not be seen by other website visitors, unless they are approved. And if the page lacks information, or has poor formatting, page and/or edits will stay unapproved, until the page quality is good enough.

5. If you are making a new page, you can make it in your userspace (On Liquipedia click on [Your name]->User). That's like a sandbox or playground. You can try things there, and when you feel that a page is ready, you can just copy/paste the content to a new page.
You can create pages in your userspace same way as you create normal pages (just change my name to yours in the link), for example:
(Wiki)

User:Awerti/page1
(Wiki)

User:Awerti/choose the name yourself

6. There is so much I could tell you about the wiki, formatting etc, to make your lives easier.
There is a BW channel on Liquipedia discord (invite discord.gg), I've seen some of you ask questions there already. You can post any wiki questions you have there, feel free to @awerti any time

Edit: I just went over all the unreviewed strategy/BO pages, and accepted most of them.

Normal

Please or register to reply.

[I] Liquipedia Strat Update

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming