EPTEarly game PvZ applying the right pressure
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phexac
United States186 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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FalliNinLove
Slovakia865 Posts
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phexac
United States186 Posts
But yeah 9/10 gate has always been one of my favorite openings. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
You know those instances where Zerg has read your early gate and sunkened up and properly linged quite well. You can't stop both sunkens from going up and zealots are in danger of beinged wiped out which usually seals the game. You know it's too harmful to enter, and counter lings have you worried... (Zealot count woudl be from 5-7ish I guess..) What kinda next step pressure is viable? I am a weaker 2 gate user than 1... The tech is still on it's way up, and it's really imo not ideal to power 2 gate, I mean you could but if the Z sees you (OL's are a bitch) it's a real bitch the next minute or two. This is also why often I opt for fast tech builds to make the zerg as blind as possible to me -_-;; | ||
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
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phexac
United States186 Posts
I would say that by then, you should have been teching for a while, adding gas and core since you will have money for that if u just keep making 2 gate zeals. From there u can go into sair or cannon expo while getting temp tech. If you go sair, use sair/dt to try and stop expo. Your zealots slowed him down, hopefully, by making him produce lings and sunks that he otherwise would not have, so his tech should come later, as he powers up. You can test his defenses, but that will be more for show than anything else. If you can get him to make some more lings instead of drones--great. But you main goal is to expand and produce an army that will be able to either kill any zerg expansion attempts or be strong enough to give you map control enough to start expanding yourself if you cannot break existing zerg expansions. | ||
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ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On May 28 2006 22:14 {88}iNcontroL wrote: 9/10 gate on maps like Luna Rpoint Temple Nost Rush Hour is a really good balance of speed / economy. I have always preferred this as the best and most flexible toss opening. Can win the game early if the zerg is caught with pants down and it is a fairly safe build. No zerg opening out right makes the P behind or obsolete like a all-in build or FE type stuff can be. It is important to gage when you can apply heavy 2 gate pressure and when to begin teching or other variations. If the Z has established a sunk or has beaten back your rush it is a good idea to start teching usually to sair or really w/e you want. However, if your rush has managed to kill a few drones and maybe a colony or two contine the pressure and maybe slow tech or even expand with cannons. The beauty of this build is it is flexible to your preferance and can adapt to the zerg, as opposed to what most P's bitch about in that the zerg can easily adapt to the P. I dislike 9/10 a lot so I'm biased against it, however it's GENERALLY not a good idea to 2 gate on rush hour, unless you like place them at your nat or SOMETIMES in main.. I personally 10/12 as I feel like I have no eco with 9/10, but that's just me, it's not a bad build by any means. Also, if you don't do almost any damage with your zealot rush, getting a sair will put you behind (well, not if you noticed you wouldn't be able to do anything in time and teched quicker than usual), while if you do lots of damage, getting a sair is totally worth it as it will actually hurt him now (ie if you killed almost nothing, he'll have gotten tech and drones and making a spore/some hydras isn't going to hurt him, while if you killed stuff, his tech will be slower and losing any more drones will cost him a lot more than otherwise, at least imo). Also @ first post, I didn't say much about applying pressure early game, even though it's important. But what matters most is that you get out of the middle game ahead or AT LEAST even, because during the middle game protoss is favoured, so you want to use this period to either end the game OR secure an equal (or close to) economy to the zerg so you can afford to match his ultras and afford the cannons needed (most gas should be used up by archons/other gas units). | ||
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BaKeRy-BoY
Chile36 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
I don't consider 1+/speed a rush, more like an attack. | ||
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HappyManRun
1111 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I'm talking about the initial 2 gate zealot rush being prepared for with 2 sunkens up and ready. 6-8 lings, and the initial impact stopped... That is when I find myself most lost PvZ.. -_-;; Not mid game, not the dreadful 12 minute mark, not late game.. but that awkward timing early game. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
If you can\'t stop both sunks from going up with appropriate ling defense and know it ahead of time (your 1st zeal isn\'t early enough to stop at least one from completing), that\'s when you know to gas after 3 zeals. If you scout an early enough expo hatch to stop your rush, you can even gas after 1 zeal. A 11 hatch expo zerg that just made 2 sunks (which cost the same as another hatchery) and pumped lings for 4-5 larvae isn\'t ahead of a 10/12 toss. You avoid the awkward timing by teching instead. If they have defense already, they\'ve already delayed econ/tech themselves, so it\'s no problem. But often, you\'ll see an 11 or 12 expo hatch that\'s not too far away, and you can punish accordingly. You have the option from a 10/12 gate to skip probes and/or send a couple more to accompany your scouting probe, because you get the econ to sustain this eco cut and still pump 2 gate nonstop zeals. With extra early probes at the attack (around the time the 1st zeal arrives), you can, with good micro, often stop some creep colonies from being made, by getting in the way of building sites. And extra probes help zeals 2 hit kill early lings. By targetting new sunken colonies over the expo hatch, you can force the zerg to replace them with new sunkens, further straining the zerg eco, denying the 3rd hatch for a while and reducing drone count. After harrassing the zerg as such for a while, if it\'s successful, you can continue with the safe sair follow-up to kill a couple more ovies and scout or just go with citadel. With a citadel follow-up, getting speed while pumping more zeals usually often allows for further pressure--the zerg wants to be able to pump drones, get a 3rd hatch, get gas, tech to lair, and get muta or lurks after your initial rush without getting anymore lings, so a well-timed speedzeal rush afterwards can punish a zerg that tried to hide behind inadequate sunkens or force the zerg to forgo decent eco or postpone tech to be able to survive. They can\'t exactly power and tech while defending mass speedzeals (the ones you didn\'t lose early game and kept making while teching). 11/12 pool just warrants a 5 zeal/3 probe timing rush. They need to pump nonstop lings until sunkens morph or die. 2nd hatch at expo is often vulnerable, and a safer 2nd hatch elsewhere prompts the return of your probes and an earlier start to your tech knowing that they need an even later 3rd hatch (after those lings) before they can start mining from the nat. 9 pool is similar to 11/12 pool, just that build pretty much pressures itself because the econ is weak, so all toss has to do is power and survive to get the edge. 12 hat in main you can\'t really pressure, true, so you can just send the 1st zeal/probe to be annoying and gas early. If you arrive before the first lings pop out, you can maybe snatch a drone kill or two, and/or get the zerg to bunch all the drones at one mineral patch, thus stopping mining. The real key here is to understand when to start teching, as in, start gas before the sunken finishes because you know you won\'t be able to kill it in time. And loosing most of the zeals is really, really bad. For the record, I once went 10/12 gate with probe cutting and taking a couple with the rush from 8 on Rush Hour III and killed a 11 hatch expo zerg at 3. I think he only tried placing 1 sunk and might have had a bad original split or something, because it certainly wasn\'t my gosu micro. ;] | ||
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_Bandit_
Canada115 Posts
With 9/10 though, you can get 1 zeal and 1/2 probes preventing sunkens, and even if he gets one down, you can kill it by the time the lings get there. He then has to put down another, while you can use 3 zlots and 1-2 probes to fight the zerglings. He can't stop making zerglings because he's gotta wait for a sunken to complete before he powers some drones (his 1st sunk is almost guaranteed to complete when you 10/12). By the time he fights you off, you have likely done a good amount of economy damage to him (assuming you can micro). On most maps, I find a 9/10 works better because the damage you do to the zergs economy outweighs the hit on your own... 10/12 just doesn't hurt the zerg's economy enough, even though you get more probes. I use 9/10 on most "short range maps" ... luna/lotem/rpoint for example. I use 10/12 on the longer ranged maps (gaia for example... I think RoV is long range too..), since 9/10 is not so effective on long ranged maps, so I'd rather get a better economy from a 10/12. Oh, and also 9/11 gates, with 2nd pylon at 12 is a good build -- the first zeal is early enough to delay sunkens, and the 2nd/3rd zlots are not that much later than with 9/10. And IMO 2 gate builds are bad on rush hour and nostalgia T_T | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
That's the first cheesish strat i learned.. Had no sucess with it really | ||
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_Bandit_
Canada115 Posts
On May 29 2006 14:50 Patriot.dlk wrote: How about 7pylon 8gate 9gate 10first zealot? That's the first cheesish strat i learned.. Had no sucess with it really It's a stronger "rush" build, but if it fails to severely hurt or kill the zerg, you're in a very very bad position, unlike the other two. So yeah I guess it's kinda considered "cheese" | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
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