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Ice_MY
Malaysia164 Posts
Anyways the problem I'm having is that sometimes a Protoss will rush me with his first 2 dragoons.....and I will lose some units trying to defend this. And then after that, due to my low unit count, he just keeps sending dragoons or DTs to slaughter me I've included a replay and I hope you guys can help me... Thanks in advance Replay: http://s9.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=16UIR82E4R4OA3NJ5LIG57AZFS | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
 I recognize the name at least.Anyway. You shouldn't wall-in on luna, do sup -> rax -> gas (9 sup, rax after sup is done, gas at 12 or if probe gets in your main early you might want to gas faster to avoid getting offensive gassed). You should scout around 13 or earlier IMO. Make a marine to chase/stop his probe from entering. Get a second depot (you can often use depots to improve mining or to improve defence, but for now just stick them somewhere like behind your minerals or beneath them), then a factory. Get 5 marines and put them on your ramp (do not put them too low or they will be seen, also in my opinion floating a barrack over your marines is COMPLETELY useless, lots of people do it, I have no idea why, it only helps the toss. Only time you should do it is when you are blocking a zealot rush, and then you place 2 scvs in front, select them with marines, click hold and float the rax to cover the scvs). Anyway, 5 marines at the top of your ramp is enough to stop the initial 2 dragoons that show up, and if you see 1 you can actually chase it away with your marines, definitely worth it. You should move out as your first tank comes, this is done because you want him to be gone from your ramp so you can lay mines which you should have started researching at the same time as your tank started building (ie as soon as your machineshop was completed), by the time you have 5 marines and 1 tank he'll have 2 dragoons with 2 more on the way, just get him to back off as far as possible (you can use 2 scvs with this attack if you want, to trap goons) while you lay mines in a line with your first vulture. It's actually okay to lose your tank and marines if you can chase him really far away or kill half his goons. If this happens, you might be able to get your second vulture outside and put mines in front of his natural and perhaps at his mineral only/mineral only bridge. The mineless vultures should be sent to patrol expansions unless you think you need them to defend. If you see (or suspect) he's going to try to attack with dragoons/shuttle, make a bunker (losing marines earlier is very bad if it comes to this ).Anyway, rewinding a bit, when you first move out you should immediately start a command center at your natural (or in your main, I'm not sure why every terran and their grandmothers all place the CC at nat, I guess it's because they don't have to lift it, ah well). Siege should be started shortly, and after your second vulture you should be making tanks. Ok, now you have the basic build for a FD Terran (Fake Double Terran, honestly I think fake gundam is a better name but whatever ;p it's not really a fake gundam into expo since that's done with 2 facs). From what I saw in your replay you made way, way too few scvs.. Never stop making scvs early game, only reason you'd want to stop making scvs is: 1) You can't get out (confined to your natural), in this case you will want the biggest army possible and since you can't get out to expand excess scvs wont do any good since they can't be transferred.. And by the time you do get out and have a CC up, your main will probably have run dry so you can just use those SCVs. 2) You are doing some special scv-cutting build which allows you to have more units than normal, earlier than normal .. Well, if you are new you won't be doing this for a while so don't worry about it! 3) You have so many scvs that you find you can't attack because your army is too small ;p This might lead to you having to turtle a lot since your army is never strong enough to face his But basically, as long as you can expand keep making those scvs, stop when you get too many. Ok, so let's move on to the later parts of the game; On luna, after a 2 gate range opening, you are likely to see either a relatively fast expand (after 3-4 goons, this is done to match yours, he obviously won't be attacking you if you see this), a dark templar follow up (engineering bay should be gotten relatively soon after you have started your command center by the way), be vary of this if he uses a zealot to absorb mines (and for this reason, the further out your vulture is able to get, the better, as you are not forced to put them all in the same place, if you want to be safe you should use both vulture's mines defensively), yeah, I guess you'd want to focus fire the unit that's trying to draw mines to try to ensure your mines survive. Him moving units into mines might not always be a sign of dark templars, it could be him trying to make his other goons shoot the mine as it pops up to chase the unit, it could be him fucking up, or it could be him being less than bright  Another opening I guess you'll see your fair share of is a goon/shuttle (with 4 zealots or so, in it) attack.. Well, Turrets, tanks and good mine placement = good, a bunker and you are totally safe. What you don't want is any tank being a complete free kill for his shuttle with zealots, if he's going to get a tank he's going to have to sacrifice his shuttle you know? You don't want him to be able to sweep in and drop 4 zealots right on top of 2-4 of your tanks, the shuttle should be dead before it reaches the second tank (ideally). Another semi common opening (tho it seems to have fallen out of grace, it was very popular for a short while vs FD Terran) is to open gate -> range -> robo -> gate, this way, the toss will have maybe 3 range dragoons when the terran moves out with his FD build, the terran will be able to chase the protoss a considerable distance (maybe even up his ramp), while the toss will take shots at the terran while retreating.. DO NOT attack the toss unless you are sure you can win (ie him fucking up and losing 2 dragoons to your initial push out your base). Move to his choke or close to it, put a mine at his expo (annoying), put mines in a line from his base to yours. Get your cc up, get siege and a bunker - you are safe. If you don't bunker and he does this build, if his timing is right, you'll find yourself with 4 marines, 2 minesless vultures and 2-3 tanks max vs 7-8 dragoons with range and observer.. Basically you die. So get that siege quickly, get your bunker up and get an engineering bay (if you are unable to scout him especially). DT drop is another build you might see, and one that is VERY strong vs this build, so scout a lot (when your first scout is getting low on HP, send it to his mineral line, take an scv from your main and order it to mine from his minerals, that way he'll pass through any units and get in, at the same time you can send your scv back home, it might survive). Another important thing to do is count pylons, and see if anything seems late, if his build looks normal try to see if he has the normal amount of units.. either he's saving for a fast expo or he's making his tech buildings somewhere else. Scout well as you really wouldn't want to invest a lot in turrets vs a fast expo.. Sometimes a protoss player will put their 2nd pylon somewhere random on the map (hidden), just to scare the terran. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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PlayJunior
Armenia833 Posts
FA, its almost a TvP guide. Anyhow, its 100 times better than the one written by exalted which is so much advertised in TL.net. Really, great post. | ||
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Diablo666
United States306 Posts
i was about to ask a few question regarding TvP (my worst MU) and you almost answered it :D | ||
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LastWish
2015 Posts
One more thing, if the protoss is preventing u from moving out with lots of goons/dt's to slow down your expand while building his own, starport may come handy with 4 vulture drop into his main. This may punish too agressive protoss builds. | ||
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Ice_MY
Malaysia164 Posts
By the way since we're in TvP I thought I'd ask this: When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react? Pull all your SCVs away and let your tanks blast at the reaver or? | ||
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FalliNinLove
Slovakia865 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On December 21 2005 06:58 Ice_MY wrote: Wow thanks alot FA By the way since we're in TvP I thought I'd ask this: When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react? Pull all your SCVs away and let your tanks blast at the reaver or? Run scvs away, but click stop on the last one so that the scarab is blocked =] Run tanks away from scarabs (if you do this, it will take 3 scarabs instead of 2 to kill it). | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 21 2005 08:12 FrozenArbiter wrote: Run scvs away, but click stop on the last one so that the scarab is blocked =] Run tanks away from scarabs (if you do this, it will take 3 scarabs instead of 2 to kill it). Won't stopping the SCV just make you lose that SCV instead of having the scarab dud out and kill nothing? And also allow the Reaver to fire its next round earlier than it would have if you had let the scarab dud? | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 21 2005 06:58 Ice_MY wrote: When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react? You shouldn't be reacting to a Reaver being dropped in your mineral line, you should be reacting to a shuttle approaching your mineral line. Glance at your minimap more frequently. And hit shift+tab at the beginning of your first game of every session so that all of your opponents will appear bright red on it. Not only is the red easier to see, but you'll be trained to spot that red in your minimap, because it's always red red red | ||
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On December 21 2005 05:01 PlayJunior wrote: I read the post. FA, its almost a TvP guide. Anyhow, its 100 times better than the one written by exalted which is so much advertised in TL.net. Really, great post. Thank you, dipshit. Ok, just read FA's post. It's very good to describe the Midas[gm] build that everyone uses on Luna, however, if he goes 2 gate range before robotics facility, you do not want to chase him too far, becuase he will be able to meet you in the middle and slaughter you. This is when you need to make a bunker at your natural choke. This FD terran is very good becuase it shows a lot of power, while at heart being a 1fac cc, however, this only propels you into the midgame, where you need to take it from there with either an expand to your mineral only or a fast timing rush, becuase he will inevitably double expand in response to your Midas. Since you can't really play a midgame with starport, I would suggest if they are close positions, to mass and take him out with the timing rush, and if not, get two armories, push out to your mineral only, max, and then start pushing in. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
1fac cc regular 1fac cc midas[gm] style 2fac nada build 2fac gundam 2fac tank | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On December 21 2005 09:40 exalted wrote: Thank you, dipshit. Ok, just read FA's post. It's very good to describe the Midas[gm] build that everyone uses on Luna, however, if he goes 2 gate range before robotics facility, you do not want to chase him too far, becuase he will be able to meet you in the middle and slaughter you. This is when you need to make a bunker at your natural choke. This FD terran is very good becuase it shows a lot of power, while at heart being a 1fac cc, however, this only propels you into the midgame, where you need to take it from there with either an expand to your mineral only or a fast timing rush, becuase he will inevitably double expand in response to your Midas. Since you can't really play a midgame with starport, I would suggest if they are close positions, to mass and take him out with the timing rush, and if not, get two armories, push out to your mineral only, max, and then start pushing in. IMO if the toss goes 2 gate before range (which is what most of my post assumed) and you can chase him far out, it doesn't really matter if he slaughters you because he's COMPLETELY blind, maybe your vulture went around and there's mines behind him, maybe your vulture just put them defensively, maybe they are in the middle of the map.. Generally, if you 2 gate and are forced to run too far away yet you were making a lot of dragoons (and not just making 4 then expanding) the game becomes very annoying ;o Anyway, I don't double expand vs that strat personally.. I think it's risky. And since I prefer an earlier nex (4 goons then nex if I know he's doing that build) my first expo is not far behind his at all. | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
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TeRRan`UseR
Canada692 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On December 21 2005 10:52 TeRRan`UseR wrote: Something I want to try is get only 2 marines (save 100-150 minerals). Most toss players assume you have 4 of 5 under the rax (which you should float over top your ramp) and most of the time don't even attempt to break it. Well, you basically die if they do ;p | ||
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amoxicilline
France1124 Posts
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Grass.nS)
United States121 Posts
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