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I dont like the 3hatch build orders ZvT, but I would like to learn how to use them properly.
My problem are terrans who contain me with bunkers. And then slowly send tanks.
If I go muta (and 3hatch is a general muta bo?) Im really fucked. First of all they slowly start to eradicate my sunken line (even if I build them as if I was guardian rushing, it doesnt help that much).
I can gather like 9mutas + some lings (10-12? maybe I shouldnt power so much? and make more lings?) and try to destroy the contain, but if he stops scv production he can invest in turrets and add some bats (not many tanks).
Most people will say that I should muta harass, but still he usually stops making scvs and turrets the main. Even if I kill some depots or make him lift barracks, he still is destroying my sunks and can destroy my natural and raze the main (usually the terrans go do or die mode, in pro replays Ive seen them go back... why? -_-).
What to do? Ive tried massing lings and it had mixed results, I could clear part of the contain, but it would lead to a situation with me having no army vs a terran with some (which makes it hard to expand and gives him the advantage).
I dont know, maybe I should try going hydra, but wont the terran just turbo newbie my cliff (or even make the gay factory on cliff? some people like containing).
If I decide to go hydra, I should make drop first, but Im not sure what's the general BO.
Someone said that the contain strat is unstopable? I just shouldnt use it? Are the terrans playing wrong and not containing, or maybe I should mass lings? o_O
Ive tried some 3hatch hydra BOs, but they dont work too well on maps with cliffs (but seem to be great on bifrost).
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seriosuly i been wondering the same thing.cause i like 3 hatch alot.in the reps i saw alot of z's dont sunk as hard and get lots of lings idunno.what i like to do is steal t's gas so i can slow their tech down and should be able to defend.but yea terran contain is a bitch.espcially proxy fac it works well. and i never know what to do 
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why not play with doing the drop and lurk upgrades at same time, drop lurk(also do the trick by going 1 drone to island expand with the ovie) to harass main then upgrade movement to overlords (by now or u should leave 1 lurk in sunkens or the terran should return to his main to save his main thus making u able to go expand) as long as u have upgrade movement, go mass drops and then do your game cause u will have expos.
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if you're going 3 hatch muta/ling you'll have quite some time to make mass drones -,- just stop powering at some point and start making lings so you'll have like 20-24 lings while you're waiting for your spire to finish (you need to make those lings in case he drops anyways).. then start making mutas until you have enough shitz.. if he's pushing you with tanks, just make some extra sunks to stall him from shooting your hatch. Oh.. and use your first muta's to cut off his reinforcements!
when i'm going 3hatch i always try to steal terran's gas, that way you can slow his tech down a bit + you know if he's moving out with his first rines to do some damage at your exp/drones.. if he doesn't kill his gas first, he'll be on his way to your base.. so he'll have late gas, mostly you can assume he goes 2cc then ;p
If you expect him to go fast tankpush (when he takes his gas earlygame already) just start making lings earlier already so you can take his force down before he actually builds bunks and shit.
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YES YES, can someone tell me now I WAS WRONG? can someone now re-call my topic?
8882 i'le solve your problem.... try 3 hacth and MASS LINGS, when terran comes to your base you should have around 30 lings, if you atack him with a very small macro-managment you should finish his tropps before he builds bunkers,
IF HE IS ABLE TO BUILD BUNKERS OUTSIDE YOUR NATURAL YOU'RE DEAD ESPECIALLY IF ITS LT....
DO NOT SAY MASS MUTA IS THE SOLUTION BECAUSE IT IS NOT!, ANY GOOD decent terran will make around 3-4-5 turrets in his mineral line, and if he sees more mutas, he will add a bunker, that way, he will start slow pushing you and GG...
ps: if you go fast lurk, = dead, if you go 2 hatch lurk, maybe you can finish him, (depends on the game) if you go 3 hatch ling+ lurk, you're dead,,, if you 3 hatch mass lings, you 90% finish him...
I HAVE LIKE 3 REPLAYS, of each case im telling you about..
i also have a replay with a nice move, 27-30 lings burrowed, when the terran came to build me bunkers.. i just unburrow and killed everything... he couldn't even kill me 10 lings..
gl hf~
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OH and btw if you're going 3 hatch lings, be sure to make spawing pool before the second hand or sometimes its even better before the first hatch,,,,, then dont stop creating lings,
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3-4-5 turrets is nothing vs 12 mutalisk, just GO mass muta, kill his fucking cc, gg the game, build 8-10 sunks in your natural if you have to, DON"T lose it, gg him. Bunker is more of an issue but you can also try picking off his tank, he'll only have 1-2 so its not as if your sunks are going down asap.
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The only problem where this is an issue is especially with 3hatch and he opens factory first, in which he has the option of fast drop or tank drop, both which are deadly vs 3hatch because of delayed tech. Since this is what you are referring to, your best bet is mutaling to take down that contain.
On April 08 2005 19:34 loloko2 wrote:
OH and btw if you're going 3 hatch lings, be sure to make spawing pool before the second hand or sometimes its even better before the first hatch,,,,, then dont stop creating lings,
What the fuck? Pool before hatch if you're going 3 hatch lings? Like it makes a difference? Stop posting in the strategy forum please. Since you're on the forums right now, /msg exalted on useast, lets game.
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16981 Posts
On April 08 2005 19:30 loloko2 wrote:
YES YES, can someone tell me now I WAS WRONG? can someone now re-call my topic?
8882 i'le solve your problem.... try 3 hacth and MASS LINGS, when terran comes to your base you should have around 30 lings, if you atack him with a very small macro-managment you should finish his tropps before he builds bunkers,
IF HE IS ABLE TO BUILD BUNKERS OUTSIDE YOUR NATURAL YOU'RE DEAD ESPECIALLY IF ITS LT....
DO NOT SAY MASS MUTA IS THE SOLUTION BECAUSE IT IS NOT!, ANY GOOD decent terran will make around 3-4-5 turrets in his mineral line, and if he sees more mutas, he will add a bunker, that way, he will start slow pushing you and GG...
ps: if you go fast lurk, = dead, if you go 2 hatch lurk, maybe you can finish him, (depends on the game) if you go 3 hatch ling+ lurk, you're dead,,, if you 3 hatch mass lings, you 90% finish him...
I HAVE LIKE 3 REPLAYS, of each case im telling you about..
i also have a replay with a nice move, 27-30 lings burrowed, when the terran came to build me bunkers.. i just unburrow and killed everything... he couldn't even kill me 10 lings..
gl hf~
1. If the Terran scouts your bases and sees slow gas/slow lair, the Terran will add FIrebats every time as he should assume large amounts of Zerglings.
2. A control group MM and SCV/Bunker > 2 control group lings.
3. Mutalisk is the solution. That or slow drop him which almost never works. Just focus the Turrets. 12 Mutalisks would have to be stopped by an obscene amount of turrets. Take exalted's advice.
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exalted i already told you im not f$cking playing with you never, you keep being BM to me and critize any job, TRY PLAYING VS A GOOD TERRAN being ZERG and you will REALIZE its not as SIMPLE as you THINK ok?, ask 8882 he has a good idea of what im saying....
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Yea i know, and its ok if you purpose any other strats, and tell me why is not gonna work, i accept it, i am a human i make mistakes, but that is VERY different than come and tell your work is shit and will never have a use like exalted did with my thread.
ps: when you get 12 mutas i already took your natural, not joking.. then i go everything for everything, so we'll see who kills the other first, you with your 12 mutas, with my buildings flying away... or me with 1-2 tank and 12 marine + 3 medic and 2 fb....
IT DEPENDS ON THE GAME, doing that strat with TERRAN will NOT work always as any strat.... and sometimes zerg will be able to kill TERRAN containment easily, depends on alot of factors, like speed, in wut you spent your eco.. positions in map, luck, micro...
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On April 08 2005 20:05 loloko2 wrote:
Yea i know, and its ok if you purpose any other strats, and tell me why is not gonna work, i accept it, i am a human i make mistakes, but that is VERY different than come and tell your work is shit and will never have a use like exalted did with my thread.
ps: when you get 12 mutas i already took your natural, not joking.. then i go everything for everything, so we'll see who kills the other first, you with your 12 mutas, with my buildings flying away... or me with 1-2 tank and 12 marine + 3 medic and 2 fb....
IT DEPENDS ON THE GAME, doing that strat with TERRAN will NOT work always as any strat.... and sometimes zerg will be able to kill TERRAN containment easily, depends on alot of factors, like speed, in wut you spent your eco.. positions in map, luck, micro...
so according to you the only really good way to counter that strat is a 3hatch ling (bad eco+late tech)... meaning that if he took fast gas for anything else (drop/fast upgrades/fast vessel/wraiths/or whatever ya need gas for) you'll always die -_-. Or if he scans your shit/scouts it with an scv, he'll just make sure he takes some extra bats with him.. then you're dead meat too.
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July uses 3 hatch quite frecuently you should look for a rep pack of him.
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I used to have problems when opening with 3 hatch vs terrans who open with tank rush until I saw what yellow does when he 3 hatches. When using a 2 hatch lair build, you lair at about 18 control which allows you to kill a tank rush. Unless you are positive that the Terran is opening with fast CC, you must lair at about the same time with a 3 hatch build as you would with a 2 hatch build, even though it means playing with a slight supply deficit due to unused larva. If you don't, a quick, well-executed tank rush should kill you every time unless you use some kind of risky ling build.
If you are positive that he's fast CCing, you need not worry about tank rush and can make the extra drones before lair to give you a little extra material. So unless you spawn at 12, went pool before hatch, or just know he will fast CC, don't go 3 hatch because it will end up being less efficient than 2 hatch when facing a build that involves gas and lets Terran tech.
I swear to god this is the best answer to your question, if some strategy forum regular comes along and tells you to do otherwise, don't listen to them! Take the advice that I ripped off from Hong Jin Ho!
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can some other ppl answer thins question cause it just seems more like opinion right now. although aca does sound like he knows what hes talking about 
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u guys should put up some replays to prove ur points...
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8882 i could give u some replays that i made this cheese strat in some games with the double dropping lurks. just pm me your email
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when spire is morphing make speed up for lings and 12-15 ling and put them outside ur main...
when he contains u use about 10 muta + ~20 lings from 2 sides that will crush the t... also u can stop reinforcements with this ling until u have muta an try to get in his main when he leaves first time and slow down his containment...
imo most sucky thing when u go 3 hatch is fast wraith+cliffdrop :/
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i'll have to go with exalted on this one
his tank number will be minimal, use muta mobility to pick them off and buy yourself time if you have to
dont lose your gas expansion and you will be able to make a LOT of mutas... way more than 3 or 4 turrets can defend
a terran who is so focused on his contain as to build bunkers will probably be weak at home, lurker doom drop could be another viable option
bottom line is if you can't break the contain go around it
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dont build os many drones. u should have 2 groups of lings, 1 group of mutas. make sure they dont reinforce their containment by cutting them off with mutas while ur massing up. if they build a ton of bunkers and turrets at the containment, then kill his main. if he has a ton of turrets at his main, kill his containment. he CANT protect both well enough to kill your expo before u can break the contain, AND protect his main unless you fucked up early.
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On April 08 2005 20:05 loloko2 wrote:
Yea i know, and its ok if you purpose any other strats, and tell me why is not gonna work, i accept it, i am a human i make mistakes, but that is VERY different than come and tell your work is shit and will never have a use like exalted did with my thread.
ps: when you get 12 mutas i already took your natural, not joking.. then i go everything for everything, so we'll see who kills the other first, you with your 12 mutas, with my buildings flying away... or me with 1-2 tank and 12 marine + 3 medic and 2 fb....
IT DEPENDS ON THE GAME, doing that strat with TERRAN will NOT work always as any strat.... and sometimes zerg will be able to kill TERRAN containment easily, depends on alot of factors, like speed, in wut you spent your eco.. positions in map, luck, micro...
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
12 MUTES >> 12 MARINE + 3 MEDIC + 2 FB BUDDY
edit: lokoko2 nice dodge, "your" stupid, stop posting in strategy forum
Aca - your advice definitely seems interesting, naturally you're going to have to lair after though - 12 hatch 11 pool 14 gas...as opposed to 12 hatch 11 pool 14 hatch...then what - 13 gas? Tank rush is definitely very strong no doubt, but it's definitely not "lokoko2unstoppable", especially when you know he's going for it with proper scouting and timing. Don't hesitate to wall hard with sunkens to buy more time, again, it's only 1 tank - kills pretty damned slowly.
(In this situation, being on close positions is actually advantageous so that you have faster distance if you need to come back and own the contain and whatnot. Especially if he does something stupid like build bunkers, when he does "rush into your natural" when you have say, maybe 2 sunks left, he'll have at least:
-75x3 for turrets in main (if not more)
-350-400 for 4 marines in bunker
-200 for 2 bunkers at choke
-~200 for harass damage (hitting things that comes out of his barracks, whatnot)
+ countless scv damage
You'll want lings to kill that small army he has left that he sends in, so get ling speed, but only start really pumping lings when you're out of gas from mutalisk.
p.s. lokoko2 chobo user
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preferably mutas... but if u want lurks it could work, upgrade drop and counter his base.. or put lurks outside his base to kill reinforcement or maybe unload lings outside your base then trap his containment... prob is your clif, maybe wraiths, or a drop at your main just watch out..
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dont start pumping lings before your spire finishes. save larvae for mutas, but after that keep making drones when you are out of gas. you need them for sunks and to keep solid econ. keep massing up mutas. try to kill or damage tanks, attack from over a cliff and move off after one volley if its well defended, keep doing this till its dead. use mutas to cut off reinforcements. when your ovie on cliff sees another round of tank/mm coming to reinforce go kill it with muta. eventually you should mass up enough muta to break out, or if you lose too many mutas trying to pick off tanks you'll die. if you do manage to do it properly make a round of speedlings, destroy the contain and either go kill him or expo, depending on how defended he is.
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United States10774 Posts
Well, i attack the contain with 10 mutas and around 24 lings at least..dont just power on drones so hard, constantly accumulate lings.
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On April 09 2005 07:00 Attacke wrote:
8882 are teh noob!
Nooo !
For LT like maps I agree with Aca, you have to tech pretty early to counter containment or cliffing. Lings (with upgrade(s)) and later mutas work vs containment, if you don't allow him to get a bunker up or kill all tanks moving to your base, but if he does not contain you could have a big problem catching up with his eco.
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muta is the obvious choice if u 3hat. Maybe if u start massing lings early u can also stop it, but its definitly tricky and not always the best idea, givin that if u dont surround right, he can litterally bullfight the lings with only marines, and if he has a firebat ur sodomized. Muta is best choice by far imo. Tho i guess u could try fast broodling (get a couple queens) and keep setting up sunks/ while cutting off reinforcements with muta. Ive never seen it done but it might work o.0. Someone go try it asap :D
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ya does anyone have a rep of a nicely done 3hatch opening vs terran that would be nice
but i am learnin quite abit from your guy's post , i know the 3hatch openin vs toss is deadly
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Someone post that game breakdown vs Gundam a few months back. #1 in the bo5
Breakdown uses Mutas to pick off reinforcements until he has enough amss to break the contain.
Nice game, lil different than on LT but it should give u a good idea of what do to.
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On April 08 2005 19:07 [GiTM]-Ace wrote:seriosuly i been wondering the same thing.cause i like 3 hatch alot.in the reps i saw alot of z's dont sunk as hard and get lots of lings idunno.what i like to do is steal t's gas so i can slow their tech down and should be able to defend.but yea terran contain is a bitch.espcially proxy fac it works well. and i never know what to do
if they scout you 3 hatch and u steal their gas that means fast expand. guard rush gogo? :O hehe or just mass lurker ling
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When u 3 hatch it is for two reasons: good econ, high unit count.
when u 3 hatch u generally dont need too many sunkens just mass lings or switch up to dra early. large ling count is suppost to A keep him at home in teh event taht u might counter and b that u might have a bigger force tahn him with the 3 hatch pumping ling/dra. if somehow he does seem to overpower you " whitch is an unlikely case unless he has quite a few bats an meds" get lair and second gas as fast as u can and tech lurk/ling or muta/ling when u push him away take a few more expos, and if none of u get this go watch a vod of yellow lately  he uses more 3 hatch than almost any zerg and has gotten quite good at 3 hatch muta/ling. but then again maby its just cuz hes yellow .
Hope i helped u out a lil.
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u guys should know 1 thing , u don need 30 drones to power muta ling , remember that in z vs z , with 9 drones on mins and 3 on gas u can muta ling perfectly. The best way to counter any tech bos with 3 hatch is having like 8 drones on main + 3 on gas , + like 4 drones in mins + 3 in the other gas , maybe 5 or 6 depends ur quickness , with that , u fast enough and have the neccesary economy for many lings and mutas.
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EPT
