Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 53

On December 25 2011 04:15 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:

Wtf? You have range vs 3 hatch muta, and you have it started vs 2. 3h muta comes around 6:30-6:45 can't remember 2h.

Edit: to clarify that's around when they hatch, not reach your base.

On December 25 2011 15:35 Golgotha wrote:
1. Been watching PL and in TvZ, many times I see Zerg scrambling to get lurkers to stop the Bio push. Well, they go for mutas first but mutas dont really do much since the T has turrets and the marines are all bunched up and hard to snipe one by one.
They realize mutas are not being effective so they scramble for lurkers like madmen.


Why not just go straight for 2 base lurker/ling and push the T back since they wont have vessel by then. The muta tech delays the lurker and makes the bio push scary.

Or am I missing the point of muta play?

I understand why you go muta first in PvZ to stop the sairs and snipe the templars.


2. If muta tech first is best in ZvT, then is there ever a time where going lurker first is better? Like would it be better to go lurker against a meching terran (mass goliath with tanks, and even vults)?

Thanks!

On December 25 2011 16:44 Phyrigian wrote:


muta first is to hold back the terran and to snipe small clumps of mm. 2 hatch lurker ling would be kinda all in because no drones. all terran would have to do is scout and throw down 3 bunkers, wait for a tank and gg. you are completely missing the point of muta play. the mutas are made to establish the 3rd gas for the zerg and to have carapace and lurkers on the way and to scout the terrans tech route. if you went lurker first (which is common) you'd have to do damage because you're not exactly holding the terran back the same way because with a decent mm spread the terran can break the lurkers at the front, and can stall with a few bunkers. 3 hatch lurker is common at D level play and is still viable at top, but theres just your reasoning. lurkers vs meching terran would be worse then mutas, for sure, a tank would just shut it down.

I'm sorry, I didn't explain that to the full extent it made sense in my head and it wasn't very clear, but I hope you couldn't understand to a reasonable extent!

On December 25 2011 16:58 phyren wrote:


The point of mutas is different depending on how early you get them, but basically the idea is to get map control and harass. Terran has to build the turrets and keep the marines back to defend. During this time zerg is able to expand and get a third gas that will allow lurker production as well as hive tech.

If you go straight for lurkers and the terran realizes it, then terran can move out and contain you and/or just defend with bunkers. Lurkers take a lot of damage while burrowing, so you need to have a decent mass of them to try to push across the map as well as plenty of lings. Committing to this many units without the third can be all in (2 hatch lurkers) or just very aggressive (3 hatch). Also, terran doesn't have to spend several hundred minerals on turrets and gets to have a pristine economy.

Mutas usually aren't used to stop sair play. Scourge do that decently well. In fact, protoss will get sairs specifically to kill mass mutas.

I like to go lurker first against 1 basing terrans. Lurkers do better in a head on engagement than mutas and force scans that are limited off 1 comsat. Lurkers are almost always terrible against mech. They can be good as a timing, since meching players will delay academy and can lose the game to a fast lurker rush. Also, they are basically invincible under a dark swarm, so they can be useful to hold chokes in a late game. That said, mutas are paradoxically the best choice against mech. Terran has to keep making goliaths and turrets, and the mutas are gas heavy leaving minerals to mass expand. Then you switch into hydras, and terran can't move out without tanks.

On December 25 2011 17:06 Golgotha wrote:


thanks for the explanation. it seems like mutas are better at keeping the terran in base? that is what everyone is telling me so far. Keep the terran in base while you get your 3rd up. I do understand what you are saying about tanks shutting down lurkers, but after spire tech you go for lurkers to shut down tanks anyway! Everyone goes lurker in TvZ. Why not just get them sooner?

But now I see that mutas make it so that you can get an economic advantage with the threat of mutas. Lurkers cannot do this as well as mutas.

I always thought that you could keep the terran in base with lurkers at his front ( lurker contain ) while I expo behind that. but i do see how that is pretty much do or die if I am on two base.

3 base lurker sounds good though. It would stop the mid game push and I can spread out my lurkers so he would have to scan like mad or wait for a vessel if I spread my lurkers. Pretty much what I've been doing so far, cuz I am really bad with mutas and lurkers make me feel safe.

On December 25 2011 09:33 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
What does that mean, d level zergs have slower mutas or d lvl terran don't get range on time? I don't follow. If you don't have range vs 3h muta then you're doing something very wrong.

On December 25 2011 18:06 JMave wrote:


3 hatch lurkers isn''t bad. the reason why most high level players go for mutalisks rather than lurkers is because of the scouting advantage and the ability to apply mid-game pressure. it may not seem like a lot but at that particular timing, having to add on that extra few turrets before you have a good scv count and economic flow running makes a very big difference to your marine count since your additional rax will be delayed. the spire tech also gives you the option to move into guardians against the mech timing and to get scourges against the first vessel.

3 hatch lurker allows him to cut corners and he can easily delay the vessel slightly for tank siege and your timing attack will be easily crushed. i have written a short build write up about going for fake 2 hatch lurker to deflect the early marine push for a fast 3rd gas that moves into a very fast hive.

On December 26 2011 05:13 Golgotha wrote:


hey can you post that build? sounds wonderful for my playstyle.

On December 26 2011 09:42 Golgotha wrote:
ty ty!

question:
I read about how to stop cannon rushers, specifically when they do it BEHIND the natural mineral line! ARGH!

But what is this mineral jump trick that they speak of? Without it I cannot get 3-4 workers on each cannon. Can someone teach me how to do this? Itching to start shutting the BS down