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1) don't you feel that lately korean pros, especially Flash, are bunker rushing zergs much more often?
(Flash vs Jaedong in OSL, Flash vs Kwanro in MSL, Flash vs Calm in PL)
2) If so, why now? Are zergs doing anything different lately that would make BR more viable? Is it the maps? What?
3) Some ppl seem to dismiss bunker rushes as easy to counter once you understand how, but at least Flash's are proving effective. What did JD, Kwanro and Calm do wrong facing Flash's BRs?
Here's the 3 games mentioned above:
Jaedong
+ Show Spoiler +
Kwanro
+ Show Spoiler +
Calm
+ Show Spoiler +
- -- --- ---- EDIT 1 ---- --- -- -
Hi again, thanks for all your answers. I've read all your posts and I'll try to summarize your ideas here and add comments:
Your answers to my question 1:
No one seems to disagree that BRs are more common lately but a few believe this is a Flash only trend.
Your answers to my question 2:
1) Flash needs more strategies due to lots of BoX
2) Flash needs to hide a few late game strategies for critical moments due to lots of BoX
3) Flash may need to cut practice time due to lots of BoX
4) Flash is making an effort to become more unpredictable
5) Flash making more mind games lately
6) Flash is actually 7rax bunker rushing instead of 8rax, making it more effective until zergs adapt
7) Zerg scouting got worse and/or more predictable or maybe it's terrans/Flash who got better at dodging zergs tipical scouting
8) Early overlord sniping due to maps or better tactics made BR more effective.
9) Shorter rush distance on latest maps
10) Zergs got greedier, this is a natural metagame adjustment.
???) It's working, so why not?. IQ, such a valuable commodity...
My comments:
1, 2 and 3 imply that the high load of BoX atm is the driving force for Flash but he is not the 1st terran to face several BoX vs zerg and I don't recall others, such as Fantasy, going so heavy on BRs. Could it be that Flash's game is still quite predictable if you remove the BRs, unlike Fantasy or Leta?
4 makes sense but what I dont get is that if BRs can be this effective then other terrans should be doing them as well much more often. Do zergs 12 hatch more often against Flash than against other terran?
5 also makes sense to me, he is a more mature player now and maybe he noticed how distressed zergs can get when they loose an important game to a BR. He does mention Luxury's case.
6, if it's true, could explain it too. But that means this rate of success wont last much longer. We'll see.
7 is hard to believe but maybe it's part of 10: greedier zergs sacrificing scouting to get better econ.
8 is probably true, and even mentioned by Flash, but is very situational
9 is this true?
10 if true, why did zergs get greedier?
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It seems to be working which is probably why hes doing it
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I wish jaedong stuck with 9 pool.
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Maybe they shouldn't 12 hatch vs someone like Flash...
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Flash has a lot of games to prepare for, this reduces that amount.
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5930 Posts
Look at the circumstances.
Flash vs Jaedong:
Flash was already one game up. There is no reason why Flash shouldn't have done a really technical cheese. Should it work, will result in a 2-0 victory over a very good ZvT player.
Flash vs Kwanro:
OSL finals were like two days after this series. I don't think Flash put too much thought into this series and was probably quite lucky Kwanro went guardians twice, thus handing him easy victories.
Flash vs Calm:
MSL finals is in what? 3 days? Flash knew Calm wouldn't drone scout and would probably be going 12 hatch so he was pretty much certain the bunker rush would work.
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2 hatch muta done by any B korean zerg is the most difficult thing to fight
and Jaedong/Calm/Shine[kal] (idunno about Kwanro's micro) makes that B level korean look like he's playing on east with extra high lat.
Flash lost that one game on HBR vs calm in their OSL because 4 speedlings killed a turret, letting calm's mutas have a much wider area of influence as well as more angles of attack.
It's a very stressful situation
but bunker rushing can reverse that by demoralizing the zerg
&
Muta pressure done after an ovie snipe -> bunker rush is all-in:
you lose 4 drones and those mutas wont be up until well over 6 minutes, even if you're diong it only from 2 hatch
any 1 base muta play wont get you the numbers to kill the terran
in short: you bunker rush, you have a good chance of dealing enough damage to prevent any super fast 2 hatch muta for that one game.
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Honestly, I think it has more to do with cutting practice time and not revealing TvZ strategies than anything else.
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Haha actually I think with Flash he practiced that to death. One of his interviews showed he wanted to cheese a full OSL match.
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Well, I'm guessing it has to do with mixing things up so that he doesn't become a one trick pony. Because he has a precedent of bunker rushing, some zergs might be afraid enough to 9 pool; when they do and he doesn't bunker rush, then flash has a huge econ lead in that game.
On the other hand, if he does bunker rush while someone expecting it went 9 pool, then lol >_<
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 21 2010 11:51 SilverA123 wrote:
2 hatch muta done by any B korean zerg is the most difficult thing to fight
and Jaedong/Calm/Shine[kal] (idunno about Kwanro's micro) makes that B level korean look like he's playing on east with extra high lat.
Flash lost that one game on HBR vs calm in their OSL because 4 speedlings killed a turret, letting calm's mutas have a much wider area of influence as well as more angles of attack.
It's a very stressful situation
but bunker rushing can reverse that by demoralizing the zerg
&
Muta pressure done after an ovie snipe -> bunker rush is all-in:
you lose 4 drones and those mutas wont be up until well over 6 minutes, even if you're diong it only from 2 hatch
any 1 base muta play wont get you the numbers to kill the terran
in short: you bunker rush, you have a good chance of dealing enough damage to prevent any super fast 2 hatch muta for that one game.
 wow i never thought about that! that would explain the more strategic reasoning for a bunker rush than lack of practice time.
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Calgary26004 Posts
I don't get why people weren't bunker rushing more often. Its >50% win vs 12 hatch, which is extremely likely. In fact it's almost illogical not to bunker rush someone of equal skill.
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I've always wondered why Terrans don't bunker rush all the time. IT looks like Flash was wondering the same thing, haha.
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The reasons are quite obvious actually. Flash was/is playing BoX regularly in StarLeagues atm, so he has to keep his play diverse and his opponents on their toes. This way he doesn't reveal anything useful to his StarLeague opponents either striking fear into their hearts instead.
Facing a 1/3 cheese and 2/3 anal rape player is probably every progamer's worst nightmare.
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cuz he'd been putting down the bunker as a fake for 6 months.
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On January 21 2010 11:57 Navi wrote:
Well, I'm guessing it has to do with mixing things up so that he doesn't become a one trick pony. Because he has a precedent of bunker rushing, some zergs might be afraid enough to 9 pool; when they do and he doesn't bunker rush, then flash has a huge econ lead in that game.
On the other hand, if he does bunker rush while someone expecting it went 9 pool, then lol >_<
I actually totally agree with this. Last time Flash was this kickass people started beating him cuz they figured out how to beat the thing he did every goddamned game. Flash learned from that and isnt doing it again.
Edit: That and the "not revealing the real badassery" plan
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Another thing i like about bunker rushing is that it can go in multiple directions. Ive seen Flash fake bunker rush before because he was hoping the zerg would over react, and if they do it can put the terran in a very good position.
But i hate it when it happens to me. So much.
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Idk, bunker rush is stupid effective. It's single-handly the reason why I 12pool every game
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on a more meta level, it's bad for players to know what you're going to do. it's ok if they think they know what you're going to do, but if you actually do it with no variation, it's bad. in light of this, it's easy to see that flash started bunkering after he'd established 1 marine expand -> 2 rax into either early offense, or +1. cheese rax breaks the pattern completely, and also allows him to fake bunker again, giving him yet another opportunity for an easy win.
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Well, the game where Flash bunker rushed Jaedong, Jaedong not only went 12hatch against 7rax, but he also lost his first overlord which seriously screws you up. There really was no way Jaedong could have survived once he lost that overlord.
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EPT
