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PvZ Shields Upgrade, look again!

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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1 2 Next All
boredcouch
Profile Joined May 2008
United States110 Posts
September 12 2009 11:30 GMT
#1
Many people think that shield upgrades are useless. I am here to show you that as a toss user against zerg, the shield can be your best ally! I know many of you do upgrade shield already, but this is to make you perhaps consider it even sooner! The main reason that people dislike the shield upgrade is because they take full damage from all types of attacks. However, many people also disregard the power of REGENERATION!

From research I’ve done I will show you that getting the shield upgrade is well worth it! I will go thru one example to show how many more hits they can take when you get that amazing shield upgrade! Now, we will test this theory on a unit used in almost every pvz: the zergling!

As we know, some people have complained about the “imbalanced” nature of the zergling in the pvz matchup. However, the shield upgrade can help combat this menace to the toss user.

The zergling has a cooldown of 8 and when upgraded to adrenal glands, has an astonishing cooldown of 6! These numbers are 15ths of seconds. For simplicity sake, let’s assume the zergling we fight has no attack upgrades but has the adrenal upgrade Now lets get into some math yo!

Vs. non upgrade Zealot – 100hp 60 shield, 1 armor

Normal convention tells us that you just take 60 shield, divide that by 5, then 100 hp and divide that 4, and WHOILA we get 37 hits to kill a zealot as a zergling! However, we are too SMART for that. Protoss shield regenerates at a rate of 35/15! Thus the zergling will hit the zealot 5 times, and REGENERATE one shield point before hitting it again. This process repeats a few times. Thus, taking the armor and shield into account, the true amount of hits it takes for one zergling to kill a zealot is actually:

100 hp, 60 shield
-30 shield (6 zergling hits at 0, 6,12, 18, 24, 30), timer:30/15
100 hp 30 shield
+1 shield regen, timer:35/15
100 hp, 31 shield
- 30 shield (6 zergling hits at 36, 42, 48, 54, 60, 66), timer:66/15
100 hp, 1 shield
+1 shield regen, timer: 70/15
100 hp, 1 shield
- 23 hp, -1 shield (6 zergling hits at 72, 78, 84, 90, 96, 102), timer 102/15
77 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer: 105/15
77 hp, 1 shield
- 23 hp, -1 shield (6 zergling hits at 108, 114, 120, 126, 132, 138), timer 138/15
54 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer 140/15
54 hp, 1 shield
-23 hp, -1 shield (6 zergling hits at , 144, 150, 156,162, 168, 174), timer 174/15
31 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer 175/15
31 hp, 1 shield
-23 hp, -1 shield (6 zergling hits at 180, 186, 192, 198, 204, 210) timer 210/15
8 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer 210/15
8 hp, 1 shield
3 hits to death!

Thus, the true amount of hits it takes for a zergling to kill a zealot is 39 hits! Using this same logic, we can see the hidden effects of the shield upgrade – SHIELD REGENERATION! Each time you get regenerate a point in shield, you also get the shield upgrade as a damage reduction as well! To the naked eye a zealot with a shield upgrade would take 60/4+100/4= 40 hits to kill now! BUT we know better…

100 hp, 60 shield
-24 shield, (6 zergling hits at 0, 6,12, 18, 24, 30), timer:30/15
100 hp, 36 shield
+1 shield regen, timer:35/15
100 hp, 36 shield
-24 shield (6 zergling hits at 36, 42, 48, 54, 60, 66), timer:66/15
100 hp, 12 shield
+1 shield regen, timer: 70/15
100 hp, 13 shield
- 10 hp, -13 shield (6 zergling hits at 72, 78, 84, 90, 96, 102) this is where it gets a bit more complicated because at one hit, the zealot gets the benefit of both the shield upgrade and his natural armor upgrade! timer 102/15
90 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer: 105/15
90 hp, 1 shield
- 22 hp, -1 shield (6 zergling hits at 108, 114, 120, 126, 132, 138), timer 138/15
68 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer 140/15
68 hp, 1 shield
-22 hp, -1 shield (6 zergling hits at , 144, 150, 156,162, 168, 174), timer 174/15
46 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer 175/15
46 hp, 1 shield
-22 hp, -1 shield (6 zergling hits at 180, 186, 192, 198, 204, 210), timer 210/15
24 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer 210/15
24 hp, 1 shield
-22 hp, -1 shield (5 zergling hits at 216, 222, 228, 234, 240), timer 240/15
2 hp, 0 shield
+1 shield regen, timer 245/15
2hp, 1 shield
1 hit to death!

Thus while conventional wisdom has your zealot surviving 40 zergling hits, in reality it is 42!!!!!!!!!! This number represents about a 7.6 % increase in the actual life of your zealot {(42-39)/39)} and a 5% jump from the former calculation! Note that this does not take into account the aspects of having multiple zerglings attack you at once, or micromanagement with your own zealots, but it at least gives us a rough estimation of how much stronger you are after the shield upgrade!

Other reasons to consider this upgrade pvz:
1. For units with more shields (dragoons, reavers, ARCHONS), this hidden disparity will jump even greater!
2. All of your buildings will take more hits from zerglings (CANNONS ANYONE?)!
3. With the upgrade, perhaps you can utilize SHIELD BATTERIES more effectively.

Well, I hope these reasons give you more reason to upgrade shields! This has always bothered me and I finally did the math for one specific, but very relevant example. If you guys want to do it for every situation and unit you can, but I think this gives enough reason for tosses to consider it.

Discuss! Did I do anything wrong? It’s late..
starcraft is the greatest game ever
Dametri
Profile Joined September 2005
United States726 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-12 11:44:29
September 12 2009 11:37 GMT
#2
Correct, but pretty well known.
The real reason people don't upgrade shields is that it's more expensive than other upgrades and takes an additional forge to complete. Note that having 1 more armor upgrade than your opponent has zerg claws is even more beneficial to zealot vs zling (dmg/attack on health reduced to a meager 3)

It IS probably true that it's an underused upgrade, but mainly because shields are torn through very quickly once your opponent gets enough weapon upgrades, and you need shield ups to make sure half your units' health doesn't instantly melt.

Also you use ! a little too much
i once had sex with a dog,twice -z7-TranCe
foppa
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada451 Posts
September 12 2009 11:48 GMT
#3
I don't think you did anything wrong in your calculations although I am just gonna believe because I am too lazy to check.

200/200 - 300/300 - 400/400 the upgrade is very very expensive and modern pvz I do not think it is possible to go triple forge which would be the only case I would get this upgrade early. there is no way it is more useful than weapons in modern pvz because zerg starts with the ranged attacked upgrade not carapace. having the weapons upgrade makes sure zerg can't just make a stupid amount of upgraded lings (the most cost efficient unit and most imba). as for your second forge which would be going for armor (which protects protoss units health points), i would not commit it to shields because most protoss units have way more health than shields. although it doesn't regenerate it is still better! going from 20 to 25 hits on health points. shields upgrades are only important in late game when you are going for mass archon!
i can take you
Re-Play-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Dominican Republic825 Posts
September 12 2009 12:09 GMT
#4
i will try it ty for this
P1: Best rank? P2:1st time iccup, P1:really? P1 looks at the account of P2 WOW B+ last season ^^
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44286 Posts
September 12 2009 12:26 GMT
#5
I go 1-0, 2-1. 3-1-1.3-2-2, 3-3-3 PvZ generally. That's dual forge after the first +1 attack because I find the +3 shields useful against zergling base sniping. It's scary how easily 3-3 cracklings melt cannons but a shield upgrade helps with that a bit. Same with archons. Also in 200/200 battles the shields are more than worth their cost because resources in the bank don't provide any advantage on the battlefield.

At the op, hydras do 10 to shields which makes the shield armour less important. It's mainly useful against lings in my opinion.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
boredcouch
Profile Joined May 2008
United States110 Posts
September 12 2009 12:36 GMT
#6
Ah, but the hydralisk has a cooldown of 15, and thus you will regenerate much more shield and get the added effect of the shield upgrade even more! Essentially, every 2 and 1/3 times the hydra shoots, you will regain a shield point.
starcraft is the greatest game ever
sashkata
Profile Joined September 2008
Bulgaria3241 Posts
September 12 2009 12:42 GMT
#7
On September 12 2009 20:48 foppa wrote:
200/200 - 300/300 - 400/400 the upgrade is very very expensive and modern pvz I do not think it is possible to go triple forge which would be the only case I would get this upgrade early.

Stork did a build like that on Andro in the PL Playoffs. But yeah, sheild upgrade is good for late game.
inertinept
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Bangladesh1195 Posts
September 12 2009 14:55 GMT
#8
as kwark said, shield upgrade is mainly used against crackling sniping bases lategame/archons being stronger in big battles

example: 5 cannons 1 reaver 1 ht vs 20-25 lings

cannons survive long enough for maybe 1-2 more reaver shots, and when trying to snipe the reaver, a simple shield battery can help him stay alive for decades.
With a gust of wind, perhaps.
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
September 29 2009 19:11 GMT
#9
i just had to post this for armor upgrades



stork uses shield upgrades for archons making them beastssssss
Beyond the Game
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5660 Posts
September 29 2009 19:20 GMT
#10
On September 12 2009 20:37 Dametri wrote:
Also you use ! a little too much


bored i love your enthusiasm ^^
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28893 Posts
September 29 2009 19:25 GMT
#11
shield upgrade rocks exactly for the reason you gave.. if you have a zealot with 3 armor and 3 shield, every time it has 0 shield but regenerates 1 shield point while attacked by zerglings, the zergling attack will deal 1 damage.
it's bad for the reason someone suggested - it's really expensive. there are times in the game where you just don't have 400/400 to shell out for the third shield upgrade - but few things irk me more than watching someone have 3 armor and 0 shield after 30 minutes of play.
Moderator
mastuh
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States64 Posts
September 29 2009 19:31 GMT
#12
the problem is that when you are getting hit by multiple units the shield regen doesn't proc as many times. try calculating it with 2 or 3 lings attacking the zealot.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-29 19:37:33
September 29 2009 19:36 GMT
#13
On September 12 2009 21:26 Kwark wrote:
I go 1-0, 2-1. 3-1-1.3-2-2, 3-3-3 PvZ generally. That's dual forge after the first +1 attack because I find the +3 shields useful against zergling base sniping. It's scary how easily 3-3 cracklings melt cannons but a shield upgrade helps with that a bit. Same with archons. Also in 200/200 battles the shields are more than worth their cost because resources in the bank don't provide any advantage on the battlefield.

At the op, hydras do 10 to shields which makes the shield armour less important. It's mainly useful against lings in my opinion.


I do this as well except I generally (accidentally and out of habit) go 1-0, 2-1, 3-0-1, 3-1-2, 3-2-3, 3-3-3. As you can tell the short-term benefits may be better but I'm not optimizing the use of my forges having to use another upgrade cycle to get to 3-3-3. Sadly games never make it to the point where I really need 3-3-3, but I should probably switch to your system Kwark
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28893 Posts
September 29 2009 19:37 GMT
#14
yea the calculations are off by quite a bit, zealots in a major battle will normally be pounded by multiple zerglings. but still, the fact that every time your zealot or whatever is at 1 shield, they essentially get double armour upgrades, is awesome.
Moderator
boredcouch
Profile Joined May 2008
United States110 Posts
September 29 2009 20:01 GMT
#15
"Note that this does not take into account the aspects of having multiple zerglings attack you at once, or micromanagement with your own zealots, but it at least gives us a rough estimation of how much stronger you are after the shield upgrade!"

I already put that in. It also doesn't factor in when you are microing your zealots...
starcraft is the greatest game ever
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4839 Posts
September 29 2009 20:02 GMT
#16
Clearly the correct solution is to go Sair/Reaver --> Sair/Reaver/Carrier or Sair/Reaver/HT/Archon to maximize your plasma shields.
My strategy is to fork people.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11607 Posts
September 29 2009 20:37 GMT
#17
yea the calculations are off by quite a bit, zealots in a major battle will normally be pounded by multiple zerglings.


This true- it will be a very rare day that a zealot will last as long as the OP's calculations say- thus making far less useful.

One thing I've never understood, because no-one ever talks about shield upgrades (including liquidpedia). What do they do? Are they like armour- damage reduction? And by how much +1, then +2 and +3?
ModeratorWake me up when Trump's term is finished. Slava Ukraini.
DefMatrixUltra
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1992 Posts
September 29 2009 20:39 GMT
#18
The main I problem I see was addressed by Kwark. Shields take full damage from every source no matter what (before upgrades, of course). So you never get your size advantages. Taking armor makes your size advantages even stronger (Zealot vs. Hydra).

I think the expense and the loss of size advantages makes this a build-specific decision.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28893 Posts
September 29 2009 20:43 GMT
#19
yes, they are exactly like armour upgrades, they remove damage. so if you have +3 shield upgrades, all hits that damage the shield deal 3 damage less. where it becomes interesting is when you have a unit with less shield left than the reduced damage of the opponent unit, in this case the protoss unit benefits from both the shield and armour upgrade against the very same shot. this can actually be even better in say, pvt than pvz though, and is why you should make sure to upgrade shield if you are going carrier.. a 3/3/3 carrier will in fact occasionally reduce a goliath's attack by _20_ damage. ;p
Moderator
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
September 29 2009 21:07 GMT
#20
You shouldn't forget to mention the other reasons why shields are great in lategame pvz:

- Plague
- Archon
- Cannon/Nexus
- Corsair
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
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