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saw this on fomos the other day and it made me sad so i thought i'd share. =\
its an interview with savior after the recent cj entus vs samsung khan proleague match with the highly anticipated 3rd match btw savior and fbh. some of the things savior says really made me think damn how could he get to this point where he just seems so deflated for lack of a better word ;o altho i do think there does seem to be somewhat of a bright side too in how he's choosing to approach this i guess... anyway here it is. feel free to discuss. (im only going to translate the actual interview and forget about the intro stuff that just says what and when the match happened etc)
+ Show Spoiler [Original interview in korean] +CJ 마재윤이 또 다시 삼성전자 이성은에게 아쉬운 패배를 기록하고 말았다.
1일 오후 6시 30분 용산 e스포츠 상설경기장에서 열린 신한은행 프로리그 08-09 2라운드 1주차 3경기에서 마재윤은 3세트에서 이성은에게 패했다.
다음은 마재윤과의 일문일답.
- 또 다시 아쉽게 패하고 말았는데
▲ 지난번 경기도 그렇고 이번 경기도 그렇고 유리한 정도를 넘어서 질 수 없는 경기였는데 이렇게 된 것을 보면 이제는 인정하지 않을 수 없는 것 같다. 이성은 선수를 만나서 말리는 바람에 졌다기 보다 이성은 선수가 잘하는 것 같고, 이제는 마음을 편하게 먹는 것이 낫겠다는 생각이 든다. 괜히 맞붙어서 만나는 것 보다 지는 것을 인정하고 일단 피한 후에 나중에 때가 됐을 때 맞붙는 것이 좋을 것 같기도 하다. 오늘 경기로 확실한 차이를 느꼈다.
- 저글링-러커 포위 공격 컨트롤이 아쉬웠는데
▲ 그 공격 때문에 졌다. 많이 창피할 정도로 컨트롤이 아마추어 수준에도 못 미쳤다. 아쉬움도 많이 남는다. 솔직히 그 싸움은 보통 아마추어나 준프로만 되더라도 이기는 상황이었다. 그 컨트롤에 대해서는 할말이 없다.
- 이성은전 6연패에 상대전적도 2승 8패가 됐는데
▲ 상대전적은 전혀 신경 쓰지 않을 생각이다. 무작정 이기려고만 하다 보니 알게 모르게 부담이 컸던 것 같다. 감독님이 3세트에 배치하실 때 어느 정도 의도를 파악했지만 그에 미치지 못한 실력이 문제라고 생각한다. 앞으로 차차 노력해야 할 문제라고 생각하고, 앞으로는 이성은 선수를 당분간 만나지 않는 것이 원상 복귀하는데 도움이 될 것 같다. 앞을 내다 봐서는 그게 훨씬 효율적인 방법이라고 생각한다. 괜히 경기 내외적으로 고생이 컸기 때문에 이제는 달리 생각을 해야 할 것 같다.
- 특별히 오늘 경기에 대해 하고 싶은 말이 있다면
▲ 굉장히 많은 관심을 받았다. 월요일 오후임에도 불구하고 많은 팬들이 오셔서 응원을 해주셨는데 많이 실망스런 경기를 보여드려 죄송스럽다. 연습을 도와주면서 테란 선수들과 이야기도 많이 하고 도움도 많이 받았는데 미안하다. 깔끔하게 3:0으로 이겼더라면 좋았을 텐데 경기에서 승리하긴 했지만 팀원들에게도 미안하다.
lovesh73@fomos.co.kr
+ Show Spoiler [translation] +- You lost regrettably again
▲ After this loss like the last loss that came after facing a favorable situation that was a match I couldn't lose, I feel like I can't not recognize it now. I don't think I was stopped by Lee Sung Eun (fbh)'s force but that he's just a good player, and now I think that it would be best to just gather myself calmly about it. I think that it might be best to not recklessly face him anymore and acknowlegde my loss first, and then after avoiding it, meet him again when the time is right. I felt the clear difference (between us) through today's match.
- Your zergling-lurker attack control felt regrettable
▲ I lost because of that attack. It was embarrasing to the point that it wasn't even up to an amateur's level of control. I feel a lot of lingering regret over it. To be honest that fight was one that even an amateur or a newbie pro would've won. I don't have anything to say about that control.
- It is now a 6 game losing streak against Lee Sung Eun and 2-8 all time
▲ I plan to not think about the record between us. I think that the pressure grew to be too big because I was only thinking about winning too much. I had an inkling of the situation when the manager (head coach) put me in the 3rd match but I think my inability to show my skills fully against him is a problem. I think it is a problem that I will have to work at steadily, and I think that not meeting Lee Sung Eun for the meantime will be helpful towards my getting back to my former form. Looking forward, I think that this is a much better way. Because I unnecessarily just suffered a lot through these matches, I think I will have to start thinking differently.
- If there is anything in particular you want to say about today's match
▲ (The match) received a great deal of attention. I feel sorry that even when so many fans came to cheer for me in this match even on a Monday afternoon game, I showed such a disappointing match. I'm sorry (it was like this) when I talked a lot with and received a lot of help from my terran teammates. It would've been better to win it decisively 3:0 and even though our team still won the match, I am sorry to my other teammates.
after reading it again while translating it, i feel even worse =(
and please excuse my rough translation i kind of just did it quickly on the fly ><
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ok i will watch the match now
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thanks for the interview
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"newbie pro" made me chuckle. Thanks for the translation. Don't worry. 2009 is a far way away.
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atleast he knows where he went wrong and is going about it accordingly. Really didnt wanna see him loose again though, hes been doing a lot better recently but still is a couple levels under what he use to be
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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Braavos36401 Posts
i'm actually optimistic after reading this, the sooner he faces reality about his deficiencies (read: stops watching old vods of himself and starts practicing) the sooner he can start a comeback. in this interview savior showed a lot of pragmatic analysis about his own abilities and showed he's committed to and thinking about improving. all of these are good things. it's going to be a slow process people, if he ever returns to form, it certainly won't be overnight. it may seem like this one FBH game is a big deal but it's just one game in the grand scheme of things.
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United States7166 Posts
definitely.. all signs show his determination and drive to improve and I'm confident he can do it and become great once again
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After this loss like the last loss that came after facing a favorable situation that was a match I couldn't lose, I feel like I can't not recognize it now
hands down the most confusing thing i've ever read
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
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I think sometimes we forget that these progamers are really young - I mean even seasoned vets are often only in their early 20s or late teens. Pretty easy to imagine it would take Savior this long to realize that he can't stubbornly "will" himself to victory FBH, but it's a really good sign that he has realized it.
Savior still got potential ... like he said, even an amateur could have pulled off the sandwich, and he very well could have won the game if he had. Like, if you took another player with FBH's exact skill level and put Savior in that game, he very well could have won. I would go as far as to say he probably would have won - that sandwich would have delayed FBH a lot, let Savior maintain some map control, and basically do so many other things. So, he got to that point against one of the best TvZ players out there, which is a lot better than he did the last few times....
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On December 03 2008 19:59 Tropics wrote:
After this loss like the last loss that came after facing a favorable situation that was a match I couldn't lose, I feel like I can't not recognize it now
hands down the most confusing thing i've ever read
Wth does that phrase supposed to mean?
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Well, at least he's willing to recognize that FBH is way better than him. Think of that as a huge achievement for a guy who was blinded by his past-bonjwaness.
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I think im taking savior out of my fantasy msl right now.
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On December 03 2008 20:25 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 19:59 Tropics wrote:
After this loss like the last loss that came after facing a favorable situation that was a match I couldn't lose, I feel like I can't not recognize it now
hands down the most confusing thing i've ever read Wth does that phrase supposed to mean?
Probably that after losing so many games where he had a lead but blew it, he can't ignore his problem anymore.
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What can I say? I really like sAviOr, I feel sad that he had lost, but the advantage of Firebathero is just too much now, it is all in the brain now, is mental.
I hope not to see a retirement from sAviOr. He is just a legend.
Good job to Firebathero by the way.
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Wow FBH is in his head. In order to recover he has to avoid him? Thinking that, if he should run up against him unavoidably for some reason (like in a starleague), he's screwed.
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It is probably the right attitude. FBH has his number obviously. Just like any half decent protoss has FBH's number. Everyone has a weakness. I just hope sAviOr can overcome his one day.
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He shouldnt feel that bad about it though, FBH isnt exactly a bad TvZ player. He should forget about the guy for now and practice his ZvT until he could beat most terrans. Once he achieves that, then its probably possible for him to beat FBH. Even JD lost to the guy ya know.
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I think it referred to that game5 where he lost and FBH did the first dance. He really let that game get away.
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Finally a good interview!
It's good to see a pro-gamer not being ridiculously over-cocky, and mature enough to admit his own weakness.
Savior's decision to avoid FBH for a while is also a very good one. He get pwnd psyhologically by this boy and therefore just can't win.
We'll see. Savior is a clever guy, I have good hopes for him.
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thanks for the translation
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The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.
The second and final step to recovery is smashing that problem in the face with epic defiler control.
Lee Seung Eun had better watch his back in 2009.
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Braavos36401 Posts
yeah firebathero better watch yo watch yo watch yo back
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the ling/lurker flank timing was off, his bottom force got almost eliminated before his top force arrived. Very bad timing, indeed a newbie pro would have pulled that off decently.
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LOL~ I'm so glad Savior is sickly disappointed with himself.
He should be. That was a terrible attack.
I don't think he has to worry too much as long as he doesn't just noobify like that game. His form has been good lately.
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translation:
I'd like to not face my rapist for a while. I still smell of rape.
I've been a Savior fan since the beginning, but dude's got issues to sort out. For starters, stop being so sorry!!!!
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 03 2008 22:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Finally a good interview!
It's good to see a pro-gamer not being ridiculously over-cocky, and mature enough to admit his own weakness.
Savior's decision to avoid FBH for a while is also a very good one. He get pwnd psyhologically by this boy and therefore just can't win.
We'll see. Savior is a clever guy, I have good hopes for him.
First we say Koreans are too humble
and now we say Koreans are too overconfident
goddamnit what the hell do you guys want
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That was a nice interview. Good to see that Savior is still trying to improve himself and whatnot~
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 03 2008 22:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Finally a good interview!
It's good to see a pro-gamer not being ridiculously over-cocky, and mature enough to admit his own weakness.
Savior's decision to avoid FBH for a while is also a very good one. He get pwnd psyhologically by this boy and therefore just can't win.
We'll see. Savior is a clever guy, I have good hopes for him.
they are almost never over-cocky in interviews what are you talking about
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Probably the best thing for him. He should stop obsessing with beating FBH and just try get his old self overall back. Even if he could regain his old form, there is no guarantee he will be able to beat FBH consistently. There have always been cases of some progamers losing always to a certain rival they were supposed to be able to beat in their current shape.
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On December 04 2008 03:23 astalkulo wrote:
When is 2009 in Korea?
about 1 yr after 2008 in Korea
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Go Savior GO!
I know u will kill everybody except FBH 
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On December 03 2008 20:25 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2008 19:59 Tropics wrote:
After this loss like the last loss that came after facing a favorable situation that was a match I couldn't lose, I feel like I can't not recognize it now
hands down the most confusing thing i've ever read Wth does that phrase supposed to mean?
lol sorry for my bad tl =x
its supposed to mean like he can't ignore this now after this loss, that similar to his last loss against fbh, came in a match where he felt he had the upper hand at first and it was a match he felt he couldn't lose in but somehow fucked up and ended up losing somehow. is that a little better/more clear? >>
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That was awesome to read even though it was sad.
Its great to see his mature acceptance of his shortcomings and an iron determination to overcome them. The first step to recovery is admiting you have a problem and I think that is what we are seeing here. He knows his situation now, and I think he can get out of it.
I wasn't around to see him dominating all through his prime(though I'd watched VODs), but watching him now, and reading his interviews makes me a bigger fan than ever.
Savior fighting!
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
It's a sad thing when a progamer admits someone else is a better than he is... he will never have any self confidence anymore... he will soon see everyone, not just FBH now, as a better player than he is... he just crossed the line... only thing that awaits him is retirement...
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 04 2008 03:51 FConnectionUK wrote:
It's a sad thing when a progamer admits someone else is a better than he is... he will never have any self confidence anymore... he will soon see everyone, not just FBH now, as a better player than he is... he just crossed the line... only thing that awaits him is retirement...
not surprising you think this given that you are a huge FBH fan. acknowledging someone is better than you right now is far different than saying i can never beat him in the future. maybe savior will retire, maybe not. i don't think the turning point is a single interview when he acknowledges that firebathero was better on a particular day.
of course FBH was better: he won. is denial and delusional self-confidence a better path? savior said he screwed up the attack like a newbie did. it implies he would've won if he executed better. no excuses, he didn't attack correctly, but its not like he gave up all hope at the countdown. savior had an opportunity to win and he saw that.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
haha newbie pro. It's semi-pro 
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It was mostly mental thing for Savior that made him lose his shape. He was never lacking practice or effort. From what I know, CJ is a very well structured and disciplined team whose coach just doesn't tolerate lazy players even if it is the mighty Savior. Given that it is mostly mental aspect of the game that drove Savior where he is now, I agree that it is good idea for him to avoid a player who is detrimental to his current weakened mental state until he recovers himself. That will help in making his recovery time shorter.
I heard CJ's headcoach (Cho Ghew Nam) sent Savior to team b for a short period of time. This is common practice in every other sports for managers in dealing with their star players who is in slump to motivate them to do better. I personally think that this succeeded in making Savior want to do better, but that it was rather his confidence than his will that lost him matches. Now we see he tried to have Savior in match 3 which is ideal placement to boost a player's confidence if Savior is able to win it to make it 3:0 to become a finisher(hero) for the day. I just feel tremendous effort by the CJ coach to bring Savior back. Savior will be definitely back with this kind of support.
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I think I'm more of a fan of CJ Coach than CJ players. ROFL
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
On December 04 2008 03:54 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 03:51 FConnectionUK wrote:
It's a sad thing when a progamer admits someone else is a better than he is... he will never have any self confidence anymore... he will soon see everyone, not just FBH now, as a better player than he is... he just crossed the line... only thing that awaits him is retirement... not surprising you think this given that you are a huge FBH fan. acknowledging someone is better than you right now is far different than saying i can never beat him in the future. maybe savior will retire, maybe not. i don't think the turning point is a single interview when he acknowledges that firebathero was better on a particular day. of course FBH was better: he won. is denial and delusional self-confidence a better path? savior said he screwed up the attack like a newbie did. it implies he would've won if he executed better. no excuses, he didn't attack correctly, but its not like he gave up all hope at the countdown. savior had an opportunity to win and he saw that.
Savior lost 7 consecutive matches against FBH. Never has he won once. And let's not even mention FBH's gruesome 'Savior-confident-killer' ceremony dances that followed.
This is not Savior just acknowledging FBH is a better player than he is. Savior was forced to acknowledge it. He's been broken. This is possibly the worst way of having your confident drowned. Maybe you can't see it, being Team Savior Lovers , but this pattern had been seen before in the likes of our previous heroes such as Garimto and Yell0w.
But yes, he can make a comeback. And it will be that much greater. However, the chances of Savior recovering (at least while FBH is still playing) doesn't seem so high.
Edit: This interview can be recognized as the turning point because this interview shows us so much what Savior is going through.
When you lose a game, there's just no easy way out. To be a contender, you need to mind control yourself by having delusional self-confidence or an excuse for every loss. Especially when you lose 7 games in a row. IMO, Savior, denying to do both, can no longer be a contender for eposrts.
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On December 03 2008 19:35 Hot_Bid wrote:
i'm actually optimistic after reading this, the sooner he faces reality about his deficiencies (read: stops watching old vods of himself and starts practicing) the sooner he can start a comeback. in this interview savior showed a lot of pragmatic analysis about his own abilities and showed he's committed to and thinking about improving. all of these are good things. it's going to be a slow process people, if he ever returns to form it certainly won't be overnight. it may seem like this one FBH game is a big deal but it's just one game in the grand scheme of things.
I think the main point here is exactly that he dont have to return to form, he has to evolve, saviors slump started when 3 hatch muta into hive was stoped and fast expo from toss became the "normal" so "returning to form" leads to nowhere. If he wants to keep playing starcraft he has to rebuild, from 0 if needed, right now his old good days are just a giant stone on his back.
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ooo thats sad.....o well I really think though that its firebathero's overall skill in tvz more then the psychological effects on Savior that made him lose although the micro of that battle was.....im not gonna swear. I will just say its not good
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On December 04 2008 05:20 Racenilatr wrote:
ooo thats sad.....o well I really think though that its firebathero's overall skill in tvz more then the psychological effects on Savior that made him lose although the micro of that battle was.....im not gonna swear. I will just say its not good
I agree with this totally. His TvZ is top tier so no shame losing to him at all.
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 04 2008 04:18 FConnectionUK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 03:54 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 03:51 FConnectionUK wrote:
It's a sad thing when a progamer admits someone else is a better than he is... he will never have any self confidence anymore... he will soon see everyone, not just FBH now, as a better player than he is... he just crossed the line... only thing that awaits him is retirement... not surprising you think this given that you are a huge FBH fan. acknowledging someone is better than you right now is far different than saying i can never beat him in the future. maybe savior will retire, maybe not. i don't think the turning point is a single interview when he acknowledges that firebathero was better on a particular day. of course FBH was better: he won. is denial and delusional self-confidence a better path? savior said he screwed up the attack like a newbie did. it implies he would've won if he executed better. no excuses, he didn't attack correctly, but its not like he gave up all hope at the countdown. savior had an opportunity to win and he saw that. Savior lost 7 consecutive matches against FBH. Never has he won once. And let's not even mention FBH's gruesome 'Savior-confident-killer' ceremony dances that followed. This is not Savior just acknowledging FBH is a better player than he is. Savior was forced to acknowledge it. He's been broken. This is possibly the worst way of having your confident drowned. Maybe you can't see it, being Team Savior Lovers , but this pattern had been seen before in the likes of our previous heroes such as Garimto and Yell0w. But yes, he can make a comeback. And it will be that much greater. However, the chances of Savior recovering (at least while FBH is still playing) doesn't seem so high. Edit: This interview can be recognized as the turning point because this interview shows us so much what Savior is going through. When you lose a game, there's just no easy way out. To be a contender, you need to mind control yourself by having delusional self-confidence or an excuse for every loss. Especially when you lose 7 games in a row. IMO, Savior, denying to do both, can no longer be a contender for eposrts.
my point is this interview and this game is far removed already from the point of no return for savior. you make it seem like he was confident every single time up to this time. this is just the first time he's outwardly said it. i know thats somewhat significant, but imo its better to change up his approach than to continue doing what he did after each of the previous six losses, no? i mean he can't really do worse.
if you read my posts about savior in the past year or so, you'll realize i'm the last person to be blinded by false optimism for some miraculous comeback. i was extremely pessimistic watching his qualifier games for the previous msl even though he qualified, and while encouraged by his blizzcon games, have yet to see a standard tv zvt win yet. yes, i'm a huge savior fan, but that does not make me blind.
the situation with fbh is obviously not optimal, but i think savior's attitude in this interview is just... different. yes, it's bad to lose your confidence, but what he's been doing hasn't been working. change, any change, at this point is good. maybe it'll lead him to retirement, maybe it'll lead him back to one final run. who knows? but the same old same old wasn't working, so any alternative to me is progress.
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lol, pretty true about the flank, it should have been gg easily
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On December 03 2008 19:19 Orome wrote:thanks for the interview
:<
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for all you guys thinking fbh would have lost if savior flanked better. thats not ture. fbh has some sick terran micro and i wouldnt be surprised if he fought off a better flank as well.
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Oh god, that flank made me bang my head upon my desk repeatedly.
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Yeah that was poor timing by Savior, he really woulda gotten it if he won that.
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I am a fan of fbh, but I think savior WILL win the next match, hes probably training ZvT like crazy now.
And if were lucky, he'll do a pelvic thrust right in fbh's face.
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Poor savior. =(
You'll get him someday. =(
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On December 04 2008 07:02 ramen247 wrote:
for all you guys thinking fbh would have lost if savior flanked better. thats not ture. fbh has some sick terran micro and i wouldnt be surprised if he fought off a better flank as well.
You can't micro your way out of a complete lurk/ling surround. You can't run from it, and lateral movement doesn't help (die to lings). I don't see how focus fire could have saved him if both sides of the attack came at the same time.
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On December 04 2008 07:02 ramen247 wrote:
for all you guys thinking fbh would have lost if savior flanked better. thats not ture. fbh has some sick terran micro and i wouldnt be surprised if he fought off a better flank as well.
Have you played ZvT? 10 lurkers with ling support rapes that kind of an army easily if you just select all the lurkers and click somewhere to the middle of the clump with them.
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funny thing i still havent watched the game yet. i saw the 1st 2 matches and the last match but i was watching em after i knew cj won but savior lost so i just couldnt bring myself to watch it yet >< (yes i am a really huge and stupid fanboy =(() so i dont even know what theyre talking about when they talk about the horrible micro lol i guess i have to watch it now... ><
and i agree that while initially i thought this seemed like a really bad sign from savior in acknowledging his inferiority at the moment that would indicate he has lost a lot of confidence (which is bad since i think you need to have some confidence in yourself to be able to win tough games), but like hot bid said i think its a positive thing that he's trying to think differently and approach this differently because that is definitely what he needs to do. the regular 3 hatch play that he made so popular doesnt work as well anymore and as people in the community are mentioning recently, the standard zerg play has been changing to a 2 hatch offensive build followed by 3rd hatch at expo. i still believe with some work, savior can return to being dominant. what was so great about him back in his prime was above all his game sense and overall strategy/game plan that took into account how to play out and manage the entire game not just the early or mid or late game etc. and thats something that cant exactly be learned (altho i suppose it comes with more practice but only to an extent).
that kinda rambled on i think but anyway i guess what im trying to say is that his determination to overcome these problems that he recognizes in his play is a good thing and hopefully it will lead him to adapt his play and his mentality to greater heights. as hot bid said this kind of change could lead to him getting better or on the other end, retiring after a long struggle (which is a scary thought), but it'll be anyone's guess which.
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Sometimes a weaker player beats a stronger one. That's how this rivalry started. Perhaps Savior will get lucky and have an underdog win against FBH in the future.
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Haha, so owned by FBH
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Actually, as someone that has guided competitive players for a long time, what Savior said is perfect. He's now accepting his loss and thus we can now look into why he lost. This path means he can ignore the fact that it is FBH and examine the actually issues with his play.
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FBH jsut has a monster TvZ. After his win against Jaedong I don't think any who looked at it logically would have expected Savior to win.
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FBH is a TvZ beast, especially in his game vs jaedong. But, this game wasn't his skill, but saviors terrible control, man... did u see that attack? can anyone say premature ejaculation???
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Poor savior
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On December 04 2008 13:33 fearus wrote:
FBH jsut has a monster TvZ. After his win against Jaedong I don't think any who looked at it logically would have expected Savior to win.
Dude, it wasn't FBH's win.
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Savior should stop playing, looks like he isnt ment to comeback, juding his awful play
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I still believe. I don't believe he will be untouchable like his former self, but I believe that in a couple of months he could become a solid zerg, at least similar to Effort's current level. From there on, I don't know if he will take it to the next level where the likes of Luxury, yarnc, or JD(at least the JD of a month ago) are. But I still believe he could become an invaluable piece for CJ again.
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On December 04 2008 19:18 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 13:33 fearus wrote:
FBH jsut has a monster TvZ. After his win against Jaedong I don't think any who looked at it logically would have expected Savior to win. Dude, it wasn't FBH's win.
Dude, what?
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On December 04 2008 22:34 fearus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 19:18 Shikyo wrote:On December 04 2008 13:33 fearus wrote:
FBH jsut has a monster TvZ. After his win against Jaedong I don't think any who looked at it logically would have expected Savior to win. Dude, it wasn't FBH's win. Dude, what?
I think what he means is that it wanst FBH's win... it was SaviOr's loss... SaviOr was way to noobie that game and nervous.. Did you see how he threw away that big attack "Noobie Pro" "Amateur" coulda done better than him he stated himself...
In the other hand, How can he be so nervous? I mean the best Z ever? that has been through OSLs/MSLs etc? I guess FBH crotch dance really got to him ^_^
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EPT
