I noticed a small discussion about the issue of what the significance of saying/(not saying) 'gg' should be in yaqoob's blog BM @ ICCup by Noobs. I tried looking around for a thread dedicated to this, but couldn't find one, especially since search doesn't allow you to look for the two letter word 'gg'.
There seems to be a lot of disagreement about when to say gg, and what it means when you don't say gg. I'm going to outline my thoughts, and allow people with a contrary viewpoint to explain their beliefs.
Going from my limited experience... 'gg' has become an important part of a Starcraft match. Nobody enjoys losing, regardless of if you played well or not, but it's become habit to say 'gg' and expect a 'gg' from your opponent. If the conversation goes exactly like this, it can serve to lessen the load of losing. At least you lost to a gm opponent. If the opponent refuses to respond to your 'gg' with a 'gg' or responds back with a rude comment/insult etc, it's safe to say that they are being bm, unless you hacked or were very rude yourself (there was one time when I played a pvp on pgt on paranoid android and I was losing and typed 'gg' and he responded 'bg'. I asked what he meant, and he said "bad game" and I was forced to shrug it off and leave).
But that's as far as it should go, I believe. If I'm playing vs yubee, and I am winning, and he suddenly leaves, that doesn't mean he was bm. He doesn't have to 'gg'. In my opinion, the 'gg' is for the loser... not the winner. BM is in the court of the winner and how they respond to the loser. I think winners tend to have a bit of an overinflated view of their own importance, and expect something more of the loser. But that's not how it should be.
There is an exception. Suppose I play a few games with yubee every week... and we generally run ~50% wins/losses. I type out after every game I lose. Then, one game, he uses some cheese, or I play like crap, or what have you, and I don't type out before I altqq. Yeah that's a bit bm because I've built up the history of typing out vs him. But keep in mind, it's only a bit bm, and if that's the worst thing I do, compared to what many losers on ICCup do (read blog mentioned at beginning) then that's fine. No point in getting bent out of shape about a small act of bm amongst a large amount of bm.
As Shauni was beginning to do in the aformentioned blog, I'm going to outline some circumstances where I though you should or should not need to type out after losing a game.
Cases where you do not need to type out: 1) Random ladder games. It's not a bad idea to type out since there are a lot of good players on there who are taking their time to play you and aren't complaining about it. I really appreciate when an A level player plays me going through D/D+/C- ranks, and so I try my best to be as mannered as possible... so use your judgment here.
2) Random public games. With the severe amount of bm'ing that goes on here, whether or not you 'gg' when you lose is completely unimportant.
3) Any game against yubee.
Cases where you should type out: a) A scheduled match, such as in a proleague, clan league, on a program such at tl-attack/bnet-attack/etc. Whenever you enter an official gaming entity (including WCG) you have to play the game, and obey the silly rules of etiquette. Saying 'gg' is probably part of it.
b) Playing with someone who is much much better than you. I already mentioned this earlier, but I just want to emphasize it. I don't think this should be necessary, but the circumstances really do suggest you type out, especially since it's usually in the spotlight.
In conclusion, I don't believe it's about whether or not you type out, but how mannered you act in lieu of typing out. If I don't type out and leave the game, I damn well better be mannered in the channel. Similarly, typing out doesn't suddenly give you a license to be totally bm. Be very wary about making a huge list of excuses for why you lost, in an attempt to explain how you should have won. I've been guilty of that in the past, and I realize it's a no-in situation.
I'm sure I didn't touch upon every possible case, or was a bit unclear/underdeveloped in my explanations, so I'm hoping to illicit some discussion. But please please please don't make a post like:
When you lose a game, it's known by everyone that it's bm to leave without typing out. Nothing will change this.
On August 19 2008 06:18 Pwntrucci[sR] wrote: I say gg all the time but i alt qq instantly after, It causes me physical pain to see my opponent type gg back
Yes I neglected to mention... the issue of whether or not to stick around after typing out. Personally, I've recently started to do ggaltqq in one fluid motion... and this seems to work the best to minimize chances for bm.
say it when your opponent is doing you a favor by playing you
but now i think i should just say it all the time, since so many people make their happiness depend on it, and hitting 4 keys isn't much off my 300+ apm hands ;o i think it's silly to make your happiness depend on something like that, but it's so strong a belief now, and i just want everyone to be happy ^.^
I have a friend who is really good, and I always say gg to him and my other friends because, well, you're friends right? So no matter what, it's a good game (even if I did pull all sorts of gay shit against my friends occasionally, 3 hatch allin speedlings, 5 pool, 9/9 gate rush, rine and scv rush, dt rush, joyo rush, you name it, and I've done it.) because you're friends and you are taking the time to play a game you both enjoy.
Also, if someone is obviously a lot better than you, just type gg to acknowledge it. (lol, dt rushing Xeris is the lulz).
But if it's someone on iccup that I don't even know and they just randomly cheese me or something, I'm not going to type gg. Hell, I don't even type gg that much in longer games unless I feel that it really was a good back and forth game. At least I never type, (like many terrans, "arbiters are imba, protosses can't win without them".)\
I don't understand why people can't type GG after a match, regardless if it was a win or loss. But even so, I feel terribly embarrassed whn I see the GG back for some reason
I agree with micronesia 100%.I rarely type gg in random iccup games. And when I do, I leave instantly as Pwntrucci[sR] said.
What I DO find bm is when you opponent feels he's winning and types gg to you, like asking you to surrender/leave. When that happens I feel the urge to make the win as hard as possible to my opponent. That includes planting pylons all over the map and alt-tabbing out of BW. Hell, I've even managed to win a game like that every once in a while.
On a particular game a few months ago. I suicided my whole army trying to break in a fortified terran main/natural (PvT Python). Just after my army died the guy typed "gg" and proceeded to move out. I managed to survive with two fresh expansions and took the island, where I built a stargate and a fleet beacon. It was the greatest feeling in the world when the guy ran dry and I killed his last expo with 6 carriers. He typed something like "you lucky pussy" and left
On August 19 2008 06:31 Mutalisk wrote: I always type GG, no matter what. And I really think that the people that dont type it have a childish behavior.
This is what I'm talking about. You think people should type out no matter what. That's what I believe is childish.
I always say gg no matter what, just to be polite I guess. People always say it's just a stranger over the interet and there's no point in being polite or whatever but I don't want to worsen someone's gaming experience.
EDIT: I also agree that the winner calling gg is super super bm. idc if I'm playing a guy that's way out of my league and he's up 5 bases to one, that's just a jackass thing to do.
On August 19 2008 06:32 Darth_Ihsahn wrote: I agree with micronesia 100%.I rarely type gg in random iccup games. And when I do, I leave instantly as Pwntrucci[sR] said.
What I DO find bm is when you opponent feels he's winning and types gg to you, like asking you to surrender/leave. When that happens I feel the urge to make the win as hard as possible to my opponent. That includes planting pylons all over the map and alt-tabbing out of BW. Hell, I've even managed to win a game like that every once in a while.
On a particular game a few months ago. I suicided my whole army trying to break in a fortified terran main/natural (PvT Python). Just after my army died the guy typed "gg" and proceeded to move out. I managed to survive with two fresh expansions and took the island, where I built a stargate and a fleet beacon. It was the greatest feeling in the world when the guy ran dry and I killed his last expo with 6 carriers. He typed something like "you lucky pussy" and left
Another good point I neglected to mention. I hate it when people who are winning type 'gg' preemptively. Yes I find that to be bm.
Edit: Although be careful... if you type something while you are losing and they immediately respond with 'gg' it could be an accident...
I try to allways type out gg. for me its the difference between playing humans or against ai...
Sometimes its hard to type out when you lose to 5 pool after you scouted it or something... But I try to do it as often as I can.If the opponent is bm fr no reason I dont type out and just quit the game.
i think gg should be typed when you lose, however sometimes im upset at myself for whatever reason and i leave before saying it, however i always say it in the channel if this is the case, i don't think its that bad to leave without saying it and then saying it in the channel.
I dont say it in iccup either, but the only time i really type there is to tell my opponent to leave when they have no chance lol
I feel that some people feel that they've had a very bad game, or you did something cheesy and it was very micro intensive on their part and they messed up some, and they don't feel like it was a good game, and or are mad at their opponent so they don't type gg before they quit. I wouldn't say it's bad mannered because its just as much your time as it is theirs. I haven't experianced many people that don't gg, except a few on iccup, but it is usually due to a vult rush or failed cheese attempt by them that causes it.
I understand they had a bad game and it doesn't really matter to me. I have quit once or twice without gg'ing, but I try to keep the mindset that the opponent is trying, and they worked for the win, so they diserve a gg at the end because they beat me, but as I said before, sometimes a 2 gate proxi into dt rush really pisses you off, and you don't feel that the opponents skill had anything to do with the win.
Saying gg is really up to the player, and if he feels he didn't have a good game, than I don't find it bm to not say gg. Sometimes the person not gg'ing is nice after they've failed a cheese and you win, giving you the satisfaction in knowing how much he was relying on that rush to work, and that you had such a good game that he was mad enough to leave without it.
If I gg, and I don't see one immediatly, I'll wait about 5 seconds, do something silly like saviors hydra micro against bisu (assuming he is macroing or microing or busy moving his army or something), and if it doesn't come then ill just leave and make sure I try harder the next game for a win, or atleast a gg.
I agree with gg'ing every game vs more skilled opponents though, because they took the time to play you and you should respect your elders (better than you) and its kind of like a thank you at the end before you leave.
"Bad manner" to which op is relating is pretty rare for me, personally. I learned to "gg" after losing, respond with "gg" after loser types it first and majority of people I play says "gg". Its a very established bw-etiquete in my eyes. If game was a really good game, opponent did something awesome I word it directly, in a different way from casual "gg". These two letters are like "hi" and "bye", aren't they? Many people will call lack of one of these rude, I'd suggets using it. "BM" is marginal, why relate to it and break a nice habit.
I've only not used gg once when i got a savior vs fbh sig. I was playing on troy and i 5 pooled the terran and locked him in i took 3/4 of the map instantly and was clearly ahead. I mounted early raids agnist his island expos ,one being quite secuffful taking out all his expos with muta and devs but he just slowly took the bottom half of the map and had shit load of bc and sv i killed off all my drones cause i had like 7k mins gas at one point and made a 1-0 control group of half devs half muta's and i still couldn't dismout him from that freaking position eventually i ran out of min/gas trying to destroy this guy and just said "This is jacked" and left.
I always type gg nowadays when I lose. I think it's respectful and polite - although cheese is gay, it's a strategical option and tactic that shouldn't stop you from saying gg. Even if they aren't better than you, when they win they prove themselves the victor by playing better than you in the game, and therefore (although it may not always be a gg, nowadays gg does not really refer towards the game being good but more acknowledging your opponent defeating you) you should be polite at the end of the game. Also, for me at least, whenever I see someone leave without saying anything I find it a bit rude, it feels like the loser can't accept the fact that they lost (but that's just my view of it, other people definitely have different perspectives). gg nowadays is more of an established thing to do after a loss in Starcraft imo. When it actually is a good game, however, I like to stick around and review/talk with the other guy after the game, and most of the times they feel it was a good game too and are willing to discuss.
Anyways, gg is held in different opinions by people, and the reasons you listed are nice micro, so there's no right or wrong way to do it.
On August 19 2008 06:45 Pafnucy wrote: "Bad manner" to which op is relating is pretty rare for me, personally. I learned to "gg" after losing, respond with "gg" after loser types it first and majority of people I play says "gg". Its a very established bw-etiquete in my eyes. If game was a really good game, opponent did something awesome I word it directly, in a different way from casual "gg". These two letters are like "hi" and "bye", aren't they? Many people will call lack of one of these rude, I'd suggets using it. "BM" is marginal, why relate to it and break a nice habit.
I'm not saying it's wrong for you to always say 'gg' and have a habit like that. But I also think it's wrong for players to feel pressured to say it. You are right that many people will call lack of one of these rude (although not evidenced by the nature of the replies so far) but I don't think that alone is a good enough reason for us to agree upon the conclusion that not typing out = poorly mannered.
On August 19 2008 06:37 Aux1 wrote: i think gg should be typed when you lose,
Can you elaborate on why this is? A lot of people share this opinion, but I have yet to see a good line of reasoning...
its just acknowledging the fact that your opponent bested you in this game, nobody wins every game they play, so its not like its shameful to lose.
I have no problem not saying in in iccup, but i think that when yo know your opponent or you're playing a friendly game it should be said.
I agree that specifically not acknowledging your opponent bested you in a game is rude (which I explained to some extent in the OP). However, I don't take that to mean that not typing out is a lack of acknowledgment.. and I believe that's where many of the naysayers make a mistake.
Why should you have to acknowledge anything about your game? Too often there are circumstances, and taking offense because people act differently according to the circumstances is just a pain.
It doesnt bother me at all if someone didnt say GG. It just leads me to the assumption the person didnt like the outcome of the game. If it is a friend I am playing, I will go after him and ask why he didnt say gg. Just to straight things out, maybe cheer him up.
What I really hate though, is when Im losing and someone says gg before I do. That is really annoying, and usually I either disconnect, or start making the game longer. I find it insulting, since I interpret it as the player telling me to leave the game. But on my side of the screen, its my own judgment that counts, and I will leave when I feel like it. If its a friend of mine, I usually dont get bother much, I know them better.
Hmm I guess to obtain maximum happyness in this GG business maybe follow this rule: "When it comes to GGs, try to give more of it and expect little of it"
That way when you lose a game you try to gg it out so your opponent feels happy, and when you win a game don't expect a GG so you don't get angry. You can't force your opponent to GG, sometimes ppl get upset when losing and don't want to GG, so you should understand that and don't expect one.
I really try to say gg every time I play someone, but sometimes there are situations where it really is hard to type that lol. Like when I'm playing random people I will always say gg, if they bm or not, but if it's someone who I have some sort of history with, sometimes it can be hard for me to say it. The say I see it, just being nice in telling your opponent that they are the better player, and that you've officially given up.
It seems to be something of the opposite for me compared to other people. When I'm playing some guy on iCCup and I lose, I will always say gg, even though I will probably never see them again. When I'm playing someone I know very well and I really hate, it seems hard to give them those two letters. I don't know it seems hard to explain lol.
Example: I'm playing with NrG.GrN or NrG.Hyuga or any other team member I'm really tight with and have a good relationship with, and game with alot. 98% of the time I will say gg regardless of how the game went. If one of these guys 4pools me, it probably won't matter to me at all.
But if I'm playing someone I know very well, like NrG.RaNgEd, and have had bm issues in the past with, or have some sort of grudge with, it seems really hard for me to type those two letters because whenever I play him, it doesn't seem like I'm just practicing, it's like the finals of a tournament and the entire job is to establish my dominance. Of course, I don't have a good record against this guy and I still don't see eye to eye with him, but I always look forward to playing with him. I hate everything about him, except for the fact that he's a good player, and that's always a good thing when finding someone to play.
Don't get me wrong, 9.5/10 of my teammates are really tight with me and I am a generally nice guy to people I don't know, but sometimes theres that guy who constantly rubs you the wrong way, and it's really hard to say gg to that kind of person.
On August 19 2008 07:00 Valentine wrote: The say I see it, just being nice in telling your opponent that they are the better player, and that you've officially given up.
Ah, this brings up another issue of typing out and then continuing to play. Don't you hate that? When people type out, I respond back with a very quick 'gg' and then keep playing as though they haven't given up, because too often they just go back to micro/macro -_-a
Um I feel very bad if I managed to beat opponent and says 'gg' and he still waits me to say it (I don't talk inside game at all because I lose my concentration AND there are people who abuse this and goes drops while you are trying to type gg back or something different). So for me if they just quit its okay if they quickly type and leave, I don't really mind.
BUT what is BADMANNER:
- whispering 'gg' after opponent left - of course winner says 'gg' before loser - typing something like 'gl hf' early/middle of game, for example, you managed to hurt his/her economy major way and you are in huge lead. - at least those :D
GG is like shaking hands after a match. If it's casual between friends it's unecessary but still nice to inform your opponent he played better than you and the game is over. In a competitive setting with any sort of respect for oneanother it should be used. Even casually I still prefer if the person says at least something before they leave, or I get the feeling they're angry, think they're better than me, don't respect me, etc. Maybe that's irrational but that's how I feel.
I type gg every single game. I show respect not only to my opponent, but also to myself. He had to play a good game to beat me, outsmart me (This IS including ceese rushes) or outplay me, or he just gave more effort int the game than me.
And if I am winning, I show respect to the loser. He tried and lost. He played a game with me. I want to show that I enjoy it (as I do every Starcraft game)
Thats why we both deserve to exchange the good game sign.
I think you should gg as the loser, but I don't think the winner has to say it. GGing as a loser is sort of paying your respect to the better opponent, admitting they played well and respectably. The only time the loser should not gg is, well, when the game is terrible. I mean losing to a lame strategy, hit and run tactics...anything that could make you really frustrated, I don't think you have to say gg for, because both the loser and the winner wouldn't really expect to give or receive respect in a bullshit game.
On August 19 2008 07:05 Chill wrote: GG is like shaking hands after a match.
On August 19 2008 07:08 Raidern wrote: gg is like shaking hands after a tennis match, you just do it.
Well when it's a league or major event, it's pretty common for hands to get shaken. In the US Open for tennis, I do notice the players always shake hands. When I played on a basketball league, we all lined up to shake hands after the game. This is consistent with the OP.
But the only place where I don't agree is that this means you should always gg. A 5-15 minute match vs someone you don't know in a competition where you don't meet is hardly the same as a 90-120 minute match which you will do only a few the entire week. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands... but I think it's overkill to expect it to always happen in every competition.
On August 19 2008 07:14 ScarFace wrote: I think you should gg as the loser, but I don't think the winner has to say it. GGing as a loser is sort of paying your respect to the better opponent, admitting they played well and respectably.
Why should the loser be held to guidelines that the winner isn't held to? That aside, I don't see why the loser should have to 'pay your respect' to the better opponent (as I mentioned in the OP). If you lose, and leave without making a fuss, and don't complain or claim you made mistakes, that should be good enough. If you want to pay further respects (especially vs a significantly more skilled/known player) then feel free.
The only time the loser should not gg is, well, when the game is terrible. I mean losing to a lame strategy, hit and run tactics...anything that could make you really frustrated, I don't think you have to say gg for, because both the loser and the winner wouldn't really expect to give or receive respect in a bullshit game.
I think it's risky to say you should gg at some times in casual games, but not at other times. It's a fine line and people are bound to get offended. The two ways to avoid this are either to always type out, or just not attach as much meaning to it, and as you can tell I prefer the latter solution.
"glhf" before a match and "ggaltqq" after for me (usually, anyway). Many iccup opponents I play it's "go" before and nothing after. To be honest, I don't really care... just don't hide pylons all over the map. I've had people type out with "you're really bad" and other insults... a lack of a "gg" is nothing.
On August 19 2008 07:25 Tadzio00 wrote: "glhf" before a match and "ggaltqq" after for me (usually, anyway). Many iccup opponents I play it's "go" before and nothing after. To be honest, I don't really care... just don't hide pylons all over the map. I've had people type out with "you're really bad" and other insults... a lack of a "gg" is nothing.
Fair.
Although, there is that rare case where hiding pylons is justified in my opinion, but that's a judgment call.
I always say, "gg," or, "GG." It's just a reflex. As to whether or not they deserve the praise doesn't matter to me much. If it was a good straight up game where I just got outplayed, maybe I'll say something like, "Good Game," before leaving.
I think on the internet, where you are usually insulted, a little bit of manner, deserved or not, feels good.
On August 19 2008 07:05 LemOn wrote: I type gg every single game. I show respect not only to my opponent, but also to myself. He had to play a good game to beat me, outsmart me (This IS including ceese rushes) or outplay me, or he just gave more effort int the game than me.
And if I am winning, I show respect to the loser. He tried and lost. He played a game with me. I want to show that I enjoy it (as I do every Starcraft game)
Thats why we both deserve to exchange the good game sign.
On August 19 2008 07:08 Raidern wrote: gg is like shaking hands after a tennis match, you just do it.
Well when it's a league or major event, it's pretty common for hands to get shaken. In the US Open for tennis, I do notice the players always shake hands. When I played on a basketball league, we all lined up to shake hands after the game. This is consistent with the OP.
But the only place where I don't agree is that this means you should always gg. A 5-15 minute match vs someone you don't know in a competition where you don't meet is hardly the same as a 90-120 minute match which you will do only a few the entire week. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands... but I think it's overkill to expect it to always happen in every competition.
I disagree; you should be respectful to all your opponents. It's just common courtesy. In fact you should gg moreso to people you don't know than those you do, just as you would be more polite to people you haven't met than your friends.
On August 19 2008 07:05 Chill wrote: GG is like shaking hands after a match.
On August 19 2008 07:08 Raidern wrote: gg is like shaking hands after a tennis match, you just do it.
Well when it's a league or major event, it's pretty common for hands to get shaken. In the US Open for tennis, I do notice the players always shake hands. When I played on a basketball league, we all lined up to shake hands after the game. This is consistent with the OP.
But the only place where I don't agree is that this means you should always gg. A 5-15 minute match vs someone you don't know in a competition where you don't meet is hardly the same as a 90-120 minute match which you will do only a few the entire week. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands... but I think it's overkill to expect it to always happen in every competition.
I disagree; you should be respectful to all your opponents. It's just common courtesy.
I also agree that you should be respectful to all your opponents. Yes, it is common courtesy. The issue is how you should be respectful, and that is up for discussion.
Edit: you don't always show respect/courtesy the same way...
On August 19 2008 07:05 Chill wrote: GG is like shaking hands after a match.
On August 19 2008 07:08 Raidern wrote: gg is like shaking hands after a tennis match, you just do it.
Well when it's a league or major event, it's pretty common for hands to get shaken. In the US Open for tennis, I do notice the players always shake hands. When I played on a basketball league, we all lined up to shake hands after the game. This is consistent with the OP.
But the only place where I don't agree is that this means you should always gg. A 5-15 minute match vs someone you don't know in a competition where you don't meet is hardly the same as a 90-120 minute match which you will do only a few the entire week. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands... but I think it's overkill to expect it to always happen in every competition.
I disagree; you should be respectful to all your opponents. It's just common courtesy.
I also agree that you should be respectful to all your opponents. Yes, it is common courtesy. The issue is how you should be respectful, and that is up for discussion.
Would you finish a board game and leave the room without saying anything? That is how I imagine a game of StarCraft ending with the opponent leaving.
On August 19 2008 07:25 Tadzio00 wrote: "glhf" before a match and "ggaltqq" after for me (usually, anyway). Many iccup opponents I play it's "go" before and nothing after. To be honest, I don't really care... just don't hide pylons all over the map. I've had people type out with "you're really bad" and other insults... a lack of a "gg" is nothing.
Fair.
Although, there is that rare case where hiding pylons is justified in my opinion, but that's a judgment call.
I've only played one game I can remember where my opponent was justified in hiding pylons. But it can happen, yeah.
On August 19 2008 07:05 Chill wrote: GG is like shaking hands after a match.
On August 19 2008 07:08 Raidern wrote: gg is like shaking hands after a tennis match, you just do it.
Well when it's a league or major event, it's pretty common for hands to get shaken. In the US Open for tennis, I do notice the players always shake hands. When I played on a basketball league, we all lined up to shake hands after the game. This is consistent with the OP.
But the only place where I don't agree is that this means you should always gg. A 5-15 minute match vs someone you don't know in a competition where you don't meet is hardly the same as a 90-120 minute match which you will do only a few the entire week. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands... but I think it's overkill to expect it to always happen in every competition.
I disagree; you should be respectful to all your opponents. It's just common courtesy.
I also agree that you should be respectful to all your opponents. Yes, it is common courtesy. The issue is how you should be respectful, and that is up for discussion.
Would you finish a board game and leave the room without saying anything? That is how I imagine a game of StarCraft ending with the opponent leaving.
I assume by board game you mean chess/go/etc? I apply the same logic there as I do with sc. If it's a low level ladder game where the winner gains points and the loser loses points, then you should conduct yourself by not doing anything bm/mean, but I don't believe that means you have to do something to congratulate your opponent on their win. It's nice, but I think it's wrong to be offended if the opponent doesn't do it.
On August 19 2008 07:05 Chill wrote: GG is like shaking hands after a match.
On August 19 2008 07:08 Raidern wrote: gg is like shaking hands after a tennis match, you just do it.
Well when it's a league or major event, it's pretty common for hands to get shaken. In the US Open for tennis, I do notice the players always shake hands. When I played on a basketball league, we all lined up to shake hands after the game. This is consistent with the OP.
But the only place where I don't agree is that this means you should always gg. A 5-15 minute match vs someone you don't know in a competition where you don't meet is hardly the same as a 90-120 minute match which you will do only a few the entire week. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands... but I think it's overkill to expect it to always happen in every competition.
I disagree; you should be respectful to all your opponents. It's just common courtesy.
I also agree that you should be respectful to all your opponents. Yes, it is common courtesy. The issue is how you should be respectful, and that is up for discussion.
Would you finish a board game and leave the room without saying anything? That is how I imagine a game of StarCraft ending with the opponent leaving.
I assume by board game you mean chess/go/etc? I apply the same logic there as I do with sc. If it's a low level ladder game where the winner gains points and the loser loses points, then you should conduct yourself by not doing anything bm/mean, but I don't believe that means you have to do something to congratulate your opponent on their win. It's nice, but I think it's wrong to be offended if the opponent doesn't do it.
That's what I said. Competitive level - shake hands (gg) Friends - say something forfeiting / discussing the match / congratulating (gg or something signifying the game is over)
You wouldn't just resign your king and then look away from your friend and not say anything...
On August 19 2008 07:25 Tadzio00 wrote: "glhf" before a match and "ggaltqq" after for me (usually, anyway). Many iccup opponents I play it's "go" before and nothing after. To be honest, I don't really care... just don't hide pylons all over the map. I've had people type out with "you're really bad" and other insults... a lack of a "gg" is nothing.
Fair.
Although, there is that rare case where hiding pylons is justified in my opinion, but that's a judgment call.
I think you just absolved any integrity your opinion may have had.
On August 19 2008 06:31 Mutalisk wrote: I always type GG, no matter what. And I really think that the people that dont type it have a childish behavior.
I completely agree here. Not saying gg is like not saying thank you. Its good manners. If someone doesn't gg me I assume that they are upset and think they shouldnt have lost. Its childish. Get some manners and gg. It makes you look like a baby if you dont.
It just doesn't feel right if I don't type gg, I think of it as saying "nice game, I accept this loss". I think even in ladder games, gg should be typed but apparently a lot of people don't think so since I rarely see it at ICCup. You are competing for points at a fair game with your opponent in a ladder, so i see it as a form of respect. In random pub games however, you aren't really playing for anything except for fun, so I understand why nobody types it out.
On August 19 2008 07:05 Chill wrote: GG is like shaking hands after a match.
On August 19 2008 07:08 Raidern wrote: gg is like shaking hands after a tennis match, you just do it.
Well when it's a league or major event, it's pretty common for hands to get shaken. In the US Open for tennis, I do notice the players always shake hands. When I played on a basketball league, we all lined up to shake hands after the game. This is consistent with the OP.
But the only place where I don't agree is that this means you should always gg. A 5-15 minute match vs someone you don't know in a competition where you don't meet is hardly the same as a 90-120 minute match which you will do only a few the entire week. There's nothing wrong with shaking hands... but I think it's overkill to expect it to always happen in every competition.
I disagree; you should be respectful to all your opponents. It's just common courtesy.
I also agree that you should be respectful to all your opponents. Yes, it is common courtesy. The issue is how you should be respectful, and that is up for discussion.
Would you finish a board game and leave the room without saying anything? That is how I imagine a game of StarCraft ending with the opponent leaving.
I assume by board game you mean chess/go/etc? I apply the same logic there as I do with sc. If it's a low level ladder game where the winner gains points and the loser loses points, then you should conduct yourself by not doing anything bm/mean, but I don't believe that means you have to do something to congratulate your opponent on their win. It's nice, but I think it's wrong to be offended if the opponent doesn't do it.
That's what I said. Competitive level - shake hands (gg) Friends - say something forfeiting / discussing the match / congratulating (gg or something signifying the game is over)
You wouldn't just resign your king and then look away from your friend and not say anything...
We had a bit of a vocabulary collision so I'll try to clarify. If you are playing with your 'friends' then that's a separate issue from playing people you don't know. I'd rather talk about the latter (more applicable). Competitive level comes in two varieties (random low level[D/C] iccup matches vs tournaments/leagues/proleages/etc)... In the case of high level high visibility competition I agree with you... in the case of low level competition I don't. The place where we disagree (that actually matters) is just regarding random pub play and low level iccup and similar style games. It's easier to agree to disagree than argue it out, since I think it will be fruitless, but if you feel differently then... by all means.
On August 19 2008 07:25 Tadzio00 wrote: "glhf" before a match and "ggaltqq" after for me (usually, anyway). Many iccup opponents I play it's "go" before and nothing after. To be honest, I don't really care... just don't hide pylons all over the map. I've had people type out with "you're really bad" and other insults... a lack of a "gg" is nothing.
Fair.
Although, there is that rare case where hiding pylons is justified in my opinion, but that's a judgment call.
I think you just absolved any integrity your opinion may have had.
You did that the first time you ever responded to one of my posts lol... but I tried to be pretty mannered about it. Anyway, if the opponent is better than you but is being really bm, and you drag out the win... sure you are being a pain in the ass, but they deserve it. Most people wouldn't bother to hide pylons or alt+tab or whatever, and it's a fine line because... who are you to judge whether or not the guy deserves it... but there definitely can be cases where it is deserved. To claim otherwise requires explanation.
On August 19 2008 06:31 Mutalisk wrote: I always type GG, no matter what. And I really think that the people that dont type it have a childish behavior.
I completely agree here. Not saying gg is like not saying thank you. Its good manners. If someone doesn't gg me I assume that they are upset and think they shouldnt have lost. Its childish. Get some manners and gg. It makes you look like a baby if you dont.
edit: gg is a way of gracefully accepting a lose.
I basically I have the same response for you as I did for Mutalisk. You are the one being childish. You feel entitled to a 'thank you' if you win? There's nothing wrong with saying something nice, but leave the poor loser alone. Don't blame them for your assumptions.
i always type gg to strangers, whether i get bunkered or 5 pooled or whatever, no matter how frustrated i am, just because i feel it's a responsibility to show respect to my opponent whether i like him or not. it encourages gm and fairplay to show respect. it's the same as a handshake after a sporting event, in a sport like tennis you'll see it after like every single match. it's very healthy for the competition aspect imo
sometimes when i'm playing against a close friend or TL member and i get cheesed or rushed i'll type "bitch!!!!" and leave but other than i always G-_-G
On August 19 2008 07:54 yubee wrote: i always type gg to strangers, whether i get bunkered or 5 pooled or whatever, no matter how frustrated i am, just because i feel it's a responsibility to show respect to my opponent whether i like him or not. it encourages gm and fairplay to show respect. it's the same as a handshake after a sporting event, in a sport like tennis you'll see it after like every single match. it's very healthy for the competition aspect imo
Well you are certainly entitled to type out as much as you want. It's my personal belief that the developed system of expectation regarding what you 'need' to do to show you are gm creates more bm than it avoids... but I wasn't going to try to argue that.
sometimes when i'm playing against a close friend or TL member and i get cheesed or rushed i'll type "bitch!!!!" and leave but other than i always G-_-G
No, hiding pylons is always ludicrous if your opponent isn't going to enjoy it too (I can't think of any cases where he would). If he pissed you off, you can just leave and refuse to play with him anymore. There's no reason to lower yourself to his level. Hiding pylons is basically making it seem to your opponent like you have some hidden expo somewhere, or army, and you still have a chance in the game. If he's very smart and not stubborn, once he knows for sure you've got no chance to win and you're just wasting both of your times, he'll leave. Honestly "he was a douche first!" is a childish argument and you should know that.
PS:
You did that the first time you ever responded to one of my posts lol...
I want to know what that post was Perhaps I was an idiot and I've grown.
On August 19 2008 07:57 PsycHOTemplar wrote: No, hiding pylons is always ludicrous if your opponent isn't going to enjoy it too (I can't think of any cases where he would). If he pissed you off, you can just leave and refuse to play with him anymore. There's no reason to lower yourself to his level. Hiding pylons is basically making it seem to your opponent like you have some hidden expo somewhere, or army, and you still have a chance in the game. If he's very smart and not stubborn, once he knows for sure you've got no chance to win and you're just wasting both of your times, he'll leave. Honestly "he was a douche first!" is a childish argument and you should know that.
You did that the first time you ever responded to one of my posts lol...
I want to know what that post was Perhaps I was an idiot and I've grown.
If he wants his points... he'll play the game. Because he was bm, he has to suffer. It discourages him from being bm. It's not a matter of you being childish (which is why I said it's tricky because there is a fine line, and I'm not condoning this behavior necessarily)
Edit: btw in a pub, if they are hiding pylons I'll just leave once I've assured my victory so you are right about that.
On August 19 2008 07:49 micronesia wrote: Anyway, if the opponent is better than you but is being really bm, and you drag out the win... sure you are being a pain in the ass, but they deserve it. Most people wouldn't bother to hide pylons or alt+tab or whatever, and it's a fine line because... who are you to judge whether or not the guy deserves it... but there definitely can be cases where it is deserved. To claim otherwise requires explanation.
wait... you're saying you can be justified, manners-wise, in hiding pylons to prolong a loss? I wouldn't agree. Even if your opponent is BM, hiding pylons isn't gm or even neutral mannered... if hiding a pylon has no reasonable chance of providing you a win, it's BM. Doesn't matter who your opponent is.
The game I mentioned where I thought it was justified, my opponent and I were in an elimination race, and by hiding a pylon he turned a sure loss into an agonizing (for me) win.
On August 19 2008 07:49 micronesia wrote: Anyway, if the opponent is better than you but is being really bm, and you drag out the win... sure you are being a pain in the ass, but they deserve it. Most people wouldn't bother to hide pylons or alt+tab or whatever, and it's a fine line because... who are you to judge whether or not the guy deserves it... but there definitely can be cases where it is deserved. To claim otherwise requires explanation.
wait... you're saying you can be justified, manners-wise, in hiding pylons to prolong a loss? I wouldn't agree. Even if your opponent is BM, hiding pylons isn't gm or even neutral mannered... if hiding a pylon has no reasonable chance of providing you a win, it's BM. Doesn't matter who your opponent is.
The game I mentioned where I thought it was justified, my opponent and I were in an elimination race, and by hiding a pylon he turned a sure loss into an agonizing (for me) win.
If the post directly above yours does not satisfy you, then please explain how I can further my point.
for me, it's the most basic of courtesies in a starcraft game. there's only two points where you have to interact with your opponent - 'gl hf' pregame and 'gg' afterwards, basically acknowledging that someone exists on the other side.
your odds are simply too good with the tiny, tiny cost to type gg for the potential benefits of not seeming like a dick or offending someone.
i'm used to all the people who don't gg and have endless reasons for it by now though, and i just gotta say even if you're my friend and i never say anything about it it certainly doesn't help anyone's respect for you.
here's my post about this in the thread linked in the OP: + Show Spoiler +
On August 19 2008 00:06 Kwark wrote: I believe you should always say gg. It's just to acknowledge that it was a fair game and therefore their win is thanks to good decisions on their part. To me not saying gg is like saying "you won but I'm better, you got lucky".
But what if it wasn't? What if you lose to a D- player doing a 4pool and you messing up? You still say gg? I just don't think it's very important on ladders. I always 'gg' in official games - clanleagues and tours - but on a ladder I'd prefer not to. I think it's because of the lack of knowledge who I'm playing. What if you played a known hacker like Dino on a smurf? I sure as hell wouldn't risk typing 'gg' to someone like Dino.
how much of your pride does it cost you to type gg? isn't it always going to pay off in the long run to be polite and concede with dignity? i don't get how you people are so wrapped up in yourselves that even as a member of tlnet who knows how the game works, knows what makes a good community like ours, and knows how bm only hurts our game, you can still find some shitty excuse to not say an innocent pair of letters.
i've played a lot of games where i'm ahead all game, lose, feel like complete shit but still bring myself to gg, only to see the other guy say 'wow i got lucky, good game' and talk about the game a bit. it's infinitely better to see that than just leave and steam about it.
Well tennis is bad example because they might play together training games and only ones who see those games are players and perhaps coaches. Do they shake hands there or not? not always, its just practice. I have always seem them shaking when watching games @ TV, but practice games hmm...
Your point is taken, but it's wrong. Hiding pylons to bug your opponent is BM. If you think it's justifiable to be BM to another BM player (eye-for-an-eye), fine, but don't pretend its not BM.
I type GG after every single match that i lose no exception and i altqq right after. IDK its exactly like saying you win to me. I don't really care if someone says GG back when i win or if they say GG when i lose, i say gg cause i want to and thats what i do. Also when i say gg its like i'm admitting to myself that they are better than me and that i need to do better next time. Is it just me or do you guys have that moment right before you gg where you are like "damn...." They usually show it on the Progamers faces when they are about to lose and that is exactly how i feel.
The only thing i think is really annoying is when people say gg when they are winning. Its like rubbing it in that you lost and telling you to get out faster. Normally i don't do anything but if they are really a jerk sometimes i might float all my buildings and alt tab out of the game just to make them work harder for the win.
On August 19 2008 08:06 Tinithor wrote: Also when i say gg its like i'm admitting to myself that they are better than me and that i need to do better next time.
On August 19 2008 08:04 intrigue wrote: for me, it's the most basic of courtesies in a starcraft game. there's only two points where you have to interact with your opponent - 'gl hf' pregame and 'gg' afterwards, basically acknowledging that someone exists on the other side.
Yeah. I do think you should acknowledge your opponent (at the beginning of the game specifically). Even with a language barrier you can still be polite with a few letters/words. I just disagree that you 'have to' respond at the end of the game. I believe that's completely arbitrary and unnecessary so long as you are polite from the beginning and don't do anything specifically bm.
your odds are simply too good with the tiny, tiny cost to type gg for the potential benefits of not seeming like a dick or offending someone.
i'm used to all the people who don't gg and have endless reasons for it by now though, and i just gotta say even if you're my friend and i never say anything about it it certainly doesn't help anyone's respect for you.
The easiest solution to this issue is to always 'gg'. Nobody will get offended by that decision. But that doesn't make it right to consider it bm to not 'gg'. This is a balance between principles and going with the flow, and I often lean too far towards principles.
Regarding respect among friends... I only think skipping gg is a problem if it is conjunction with something else. If he doesn't 'gg' and then complains about something, he really should have at least typed out (and should tone back his other behavior as I mentioned I've had a problem with [and we all have to some extent]). But if he doesn't type out (as he normally doesn't) and then acts perfectly fine otherwise, it's wrong to take offense. Those who allow the 'gg' alone to determine respect level might be worrying about the wrong thing despite having the right intention.
i propose a new "handshake" when you want to show manner even though you've been beaten down so badly that you've been shamed from ever appearing on b.net again.
"pp" "wut pp?" "pimpest plays, you owned me so hard i bow down to you" "o" "X has left the game."
also, what if you type ff and they think you meant ffs or type fg and meant fag or type fh and meant full house or typed tg and meant thank god or typed gb and meant game boy or type gv and meant global village english centres, etc. and then left right after. bm !! hahaha
What if instead of saying "gg" you just say "g". It will signify your surrender and the end of the game but will not specify if it was trully a good game. If you lost a terrible game and are extremely disappointed it would be acceptable and even logical to just say "g". In fact I believe that saying "g" could be customary and used for typing out in every game.
On August 19 2008 08:06 Tadzio00 wrote: Your point is taken, but it's wrong. Hiding pylons to bug your opponent is BM. If you think it's justifiable to be BM to another BM player (eye-for-an-eye), fine, but don't pretend its not BM.
You are not getting my point. This isn't eye for an eye, and I'm not saying hiding pylons can be gm.
The goal is to reduce the occurrences of bm in the future... and forcing the guy to hunt down pylons because he was insulting for no reason discourages him. The Ghandi/Mother Teresa/whoever approach is to only use positive things to accomplish this goal... but that's not realistic on the internet.
On August 19 2008 08:06 Tinithor wrote: I type GG after every single match that i lose no exception and i altqq right after. IDK its exactly like saying you win to me. I don't really care if someone says GG back when i win or if they say GG when i lose, i say gg cause i want to and thats what i do. Also when i say gg its like i'm admitting to myself that they are better than me and that i need to do better next time. Is it just me or do you guys have that moment right before you gg where you are like "damn...." They usually show it on the Progamers faces when they are about to lose and that is exactly how i feel.
The only thing i think is really annoying is when people say gg when they are winning. Its like rubbing it in that you lost and telling you to get out faster. Normally i don't do anything but if they are really a jerk sometimes i might float all my buildings and alt tab out of the game just to make them work harder for the win.
Perfectly reasonable. However I don't think it's right for the winner to expect the loser to do something because he is acknowledging that the opponent is better, or that he needs to do better next time. Also, the way you acknowledge you lost is by leaving the game without forcing the opponent to hunt down every building. I don't consider a vocal acknowledgment a necessity.
On August 19 2008 08:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I type gg when I lose no matter what, and sometimes it annoys me when the other person doesn't say it back.
It also annoys me when they don't say something like "glhf" before the game starts.
I think this is fairly common. I just think it's wrong to get annoyed because you are assuming there is a negative meaning to this, when there doesn't have to be.
On August 19 2008 08:18 Tinithor wrote: Well its mostly a matter of opinion. People who expect alot from other people are gonna get dissapointed alot though.
I recommend you subscribe to the Nony school of thought on this matter (in the first page of replies).
I'll always say gg when I lose, because - apart from force of habit - I do really regard every game I play as good. It might not be amazing, exciting or even much fun, but in the end I'll have gained some experience and hopefully developed a little more as a player.
The exception is when I'm insulted/flamed in game while I'm losing (and I do count my opponent giving an "i won, leave" gg as an insult). I'll often even go to some lengths to force him to spend as much time finishing me off as possible while I'm alt-tabbed fuming. I'd much rather have some class and simply gg as usual without responding to his flames, but it's a tough habit to break.
It doesn't bother me if my opponent leaves without a gg. I feel obliged to gg when I lose since that's the standard I've set for myself; I certainly don't expect everyone I play to have set that same standard.
On August 19 2008 09:04 1337o wrote: What about the people who say "gg" before the game? To me it sounds like they're being cocky, but maybe they're trying to be good mannered?
I think you are just misunderstanding what they mean. It's not meant to be cocky in my experience. Sometimes I type 'gl hf' but more recently I just type 'gg' and I don' t mean anything negative by it.
I dunno, if I get my ass totally handed to me, is it REALLY a gg? Maybe it's because I come from a different playing background, where if your opponent says gg in a game where he totally kicks your ass, it's considered arrogant and rude because it wasn't a good game.
On August 19 2008 09:04 1337o wrote: What about the people who say "gg" before the game? To me it sounds like they're being cocky, but maybe they're trying to be good mannered?
na that came from the koreans and their broken english.. they're basically wishing you guys to have a good game. I use it too since a lot of koreans dono what gl/hf is =\ how about typing gg after a game in korean font which ends up meaning haha instead of WW which is good game
On August 19 2008 06:18 Pwntrucci[sR] wrote: I say gg all the time but i alt qq instantly after, It causes me physical pain to see my opponent type gg back
Yes I neglected to mention... the issue of whether or not to stick around after typing out. Personally, I've recently started to do ggaltqq in one fluid motion... and this seems to work the best to minimize chances for bm.
Wtf ? Just say gg when you lose. I mean do you see any guy who doesn't embrace their hand after a soccer match or a tennis game ? There are exceptions but like what ? 0.01% ? This is just stupid to just leave and not saying it weither you played bad or not because saying gg would also mean that your opponent simply played better be it that it was lucky or not. It's part of the game ffs. When i'm playing against you for example i don't care if i've played bad or not, if i lose it's simply because he was more prepared / stressless (spelling ?) / whatever reason you can find. If you felt you played bad and then feel like you don't have to tell it then it's just childish behavior. Simple as that.
I feel bad, so i'm playing bad, does it mean that i shouldn't say gg because our opponent was feeling a little better than us ? No. It's not their fault if their mind were happier than us and thus allowed them to play better. By this logic, i don't see any reason to not say him gg because he just won the game ?
I'm pretty sure the ones who don't say it, are either, not competitive player in a RL sports, or simply they're so fucking bm, and doesn't assume their loses. I don't care if you were being distracted by a girlfriend, a cat hell even an insect that goes throught your eye, it's part of the game. If you're really being distracted then just get rid of it ffs.
On August 19 2008 09:34 RaiZ wrote: Wtf ? Just say gg when you lose. I mean do you see any guy who doesn't embrace their hand after a soccer match or a tennis game ? There are exceptions but like what ? 0.01% ? This is just stupid to just leave and not saying it weither you played bad or not because saying gg would also mean that your opponent simply played better be it that it was lucky or not. It's part of the game ffs. When i'm playing against you for example i don't care if i've played bad or not, if i lose it's simply because he was more prepared / stressless (spelling ?) / whatever reason you can find. If you felt you played bad and then feel like you don't have to tell it then it's just childish behavior. Simple as that.
I feel bad, so i'm playing bad, does it mean that i shouldn't say gg because our opponent was feeling a little better than us ? No. It's not their fault if their mind were happier than us and thus allowed them to play better. By this logic, i don't see any reason to not say him gg because he just won the game ?
I'm pretty sure the ones who don't say it, are either, not competitive player in a RL sports, or simply they're so fucking bm, and doesn't assume their loses. I don't care if you were being distracted by a girlfriend, a cat hell even an insect that goes throught your eye, it's part of the game. If you're really being distracted then just get rid of it ffs.
Your entire argument hinges upon your apparent belief that the only reason not to gg is to contest that it was a good game. That is not necessarily true. The issue being discussed is whether or not there exists actual legitimate reasons for being relatively obligated to gg. I think people who require it are just being greedy.
I've never ever felt offended when my opponent did not say "gg". I don't understand why so many peoples' satisfaction hinges on two characters. That is just fail. I don't even know where to begin.
No, it's not part of the game. It's some stupid arbitrary rule you pulled out of your arse that the game has no knowledge of whatsoever. So your opponent left without GG'ing? Harden the fuck up.
By the way, I always say "well played" or "nice win" or "gg". But if my opponent doesn't, how is that my business? How is he obligated? I especially don't want him to say it if he doesn't mean it. I'd rather him altqq than patronise me with some pretentious bullshit that's only said in an effort to appease the most sensitive of retards.
Seriously dude, how old are you ? It's within nature to say gg when you lose, i don't care if the game was good or not because gg by its definition is now something like shaking hands after a sport's game. Simple as that.
You'll always see when someone get out of the field without giving a single shaking hand he'll become a bad mannered person, simply because he doesn't want to admit his loss. How hard is that to understand ?
So i fell offended by nature when i'm winning games against ppl that just leave without any reason. If you think it's stupid then i don't know what to say to you.
It's even worse when someones say : Lol re ? God this is even more deppressing. Would've been way better if he said gg re ?
You have all the right to not say "good morning" if you don't think it's a really good morning. But every sane human being on the planet WILL think you're bad mannered :p
Much the same way as shaking hands after a game or bowing after a bout in some martial arts. I think the idea is to provide some kind of closure to the game.
During those games you spend the entire time trying to undermine or overcome your opponent. Generally you will subconciously dehumanise them as just 'an opponent' rather than as a fellow human being while you are focused. Saying gg provides the closure indicating the end to this mentality, eg since the game is over. It is meant to indicate a sorta no hard feelings attitude, 'we just played a game where we tried to kill each other's stuff, but it's not personal'.
I'm with Chill on this one, just leaving a game feels abrupt, like a chess player just standing up and leaving the table without resigning their king.
On the other hands, playing with friends is one of the few times i don't bother gg, although i mostly do it out of habit anyway. Since your probably going to talk to them in channel anyway, it's not like the last impression you leave with them is you leaving a game abruptly.
On August 19 2008 09:57 RaiZ wrote: Seriously dude, how old are you ? It's within nature to say gg when you lose, i don't care if the game was good or not because gg by its definition is now something like shaking hands after a sport's game. Simple as that.
You'll always see when someone get out of the field without giving a single shaking hand he'll become a bad mannered person, simply because he doesn't want to admit his loss. How hard is that to understand ?
So i fell offended by nature when i'm winning games against ppl that just leave without any reason. If you think it's stupid then i don't know what to say to you.
It's even worse when someones say : Lol re ? God this is even more deppressing. Would've been way better if he said gg re ?
Hi 'dude'. I'm 21. Out on the field (I played football for 9 years) I would always shake hands with every other player after the game. I like it, I enjoy the sportsmanship. All I'm saying is, that if one of the guys on the opposing team decides NOT to shake my hand, well that's his decision. I'm not going to get sand all in my vagina just because some guy doesn't want to shake hands, and neither should you. And no, they don't leave without any reason, they leave because they lost. Just take the win and go play another, don't sit and dwell on it like it's some unfinished business.
I say GG to my opponents every 20 seconds while throwing smiles at them, to let them know I am their friend and they can play me without feeling bad manner. So every 20 seconds I say one of these gg gg =) gg :D GG > gG O_O)/'') GG =O gg
I don't get why my opponents think i'm bad manner, I say gg
For me personally i've always said gg when the game is over if i lost, and if i won i wait for them to say gg before i do, if they don't then i won't. i say gg/gl before the match just to say 'have a good game and good luck', just another form of good sportsmanship imo.
as for people not saying it, i could care less. i find it more of a personal preference rather than a unwritten rule that you have to do everygame. personally i do it, and some others don't, and i'm not offended if they don't do it, or consider it bad manner. bad manner is when they say 'rofl you suck' and leave.
No, it's not part of the game. It's some stupid arbitrary rule you pulled out of your arse that the game has no knowledge of whatsoever. So your opponent left without GG'ing? Harden the fuck up.
Well I think the idea is more that between veteran SC players (people who obviously know saying 'gg' is customary), someone considerate of another player's feelings might sense something is wrong if they don't type 'gg.' It doesn't inherently mean they're upset or whatever, but it usually does, which is where confusion comes from. It's also abrupt to just leave without saying anything (and thus awkward).
At D ranks, it's no skin off my nose that people haven't learned 'gg' is customary, but at higher levels, not saying it is like just being a rebel without a cause. Common. It's miscommunication and the person who just leaves knows that. There's no reason not to say it, and it's always better than not saying it, whether you believe not saying it isn't inherently bad or not. It's like getting supply depot on 8 instead of 9. It's not gonna break you, but 9 is better.
On August 19 2008 06:18 Pwntrucci[sR] wrote: I say gg all the time but i alt qq instantly after, It causes me physical pain to see my opponent type gg back
On August 19 2008 09:57 RaiZ wrote: Seriously dude, how old are you ? It's within nature to say gg when you lose, i don't care if the game was good or not because gg by its definition is now something like shaking hands after a sport's game. Simple as that.
You'll always see when someone get out of the field without giving a single shaking hand he'll become a bad mannered person, simply because he doesn't want to admit his loss. How hard is that to understand ?
So i fell offended by nature when i'm winning games against ppl that just leave without any reason. If you think it's stupid then i don't know what to say to you.
It's even worse when someones say : Lol re ? God this is even more deppressing. Would've been way better if he said gg re ?
If you are going to be rude at least make an argument that can hold water.
It's within nature to say gg when you lose? What the heck does that even mean? Taken an unwritten rule as given, and referring to it as nature, is not a good way to convince anyone of anything. Again, you are making a mistake several people have made when you assume the reason why you don't say 'gg' is because it wasn't a good game.... wtf I wish everyone would stop thinking that!
You are comparing a team sport (probably in a somewhat high level competition) to a low level game for fun or D/C on iccup.... they don't compare.
You feel offended because of your assumptions... not because they are bm. It's rude make someone else do something meaningless in order for you to feel happy, and then complain when they don't comply.
I agree with you about the last thing. There are 10001 ways to be rude during/after a game.
Don't you hate it when you type gg but you f10ed and left so fast your gg just sits there unsent. A couple of my friends think i am mad at them (cause i always gg) but really i just f10 to fast.
On August 19 2008 10:09 MYM.Testie wrote: I say GG to my opponents every 20 seconds while throwing smiles at them, to let them know I am their friend and they can play me without feeling bad manner. So every 20 seconds I say one of these gg gg =) gg :D GG > gG O_O)/'') GG =O gg
I don't get why my opponents think i'm bad manner, I say gg
Most of your losses are vs Korean progamers so this is a non-issue for you XD
I always GG unless my opponent was BM. I'm not particularly good at SC, so I always try to adopt a learner's attitude...I never assume anything, and never EVER trash talk.
I think it's kind of weak to get any kind of self satisfaction and even a self confidence boost out of winning an SC game on bnet, or even for most iccup players. It's SC. If it really makes your day, then I'll let you to it.
Last thing...personally, I think it's a bit rude for the winner to gg first...I think it's up to the loser to tap out, and the winner in kind responds.
I think I've said gg in 99.99% of all the games I've ever played and quit right after. I hate people who don't say gg and then give the excuse "I don't say gg when it's not a good game." I would like to murder those people.
On August 19 2008 10:55 zulu_nation8 wrote: I think I've said gg in 99.99% of all the games I've ever played and quit right after. I hate people who don't say gg and then give the excuse "I don't say gg when it's not a good game." I would like to murder those people.
I don't have a problem with this... just so long as you recognize that there are people who don't type out, but actually don't use that silly reasoning...
I always type gg even if it wasn't a gg, and if I really thought it was a gg I'll say "nice job" or something of the sort
To me, gg is like a handshake, or a "I give." Chill mentioned this before. If you were playing chess with someone (live, not online), and the guy check mated you, would you just walk away without saying anything about the game? Not sure if that would be considered rude, but I would consider it awkward if you just left the room.
What do you do after losing in a board game like chess or go or whatever? I always say something, maybe a "Ahh, you win" or "Ahh, you got me with that move." I just see silence as a weird way to end a game
I'm not offended or anything if someone doesn't type gg, but I do have this feeling of emptiness. Not as awkward as if someone just lost at chess and left the room silently, but a similar, less weird, version of that
The words gg represent your acknowledgement that Starcraft is a game of skill, that the winner is decided by the choices made by the players and that your choices were better than his. Whether it was cheese, allin or some really lame strategy like picking terran doesn't matter. Ultimately when you lose a game of Starcraft it is always because they outplayed you. There is always a decision you could have made that would have won you the game, had you been good enough to make it. Saying gg is admitting to your opponent that they won fairly and that you respect that win. Regardless of context, you should say it. No exceptions.
Oh, and I also say good luck have fun before games of squash and good game after each of them. Fortunately my squash partner understands my Starcraft obsession so he tolerates it. He's starting to do it too.
On August 19 2008 11:15 Kwark wrote: The words gg represent your acknowledgement that Starcraft is a game of skill, that the winner is decided by the choices made by the players and that your choices were better than his. Whether it was cheese, allin or some really lame strategy like picking terran doesn't matter. Ultimately when you lose a game of Starcraft it is always because they outplayed you. There is always a decision you could have made that would have won you the game, had you been good enough to make it. Saying gg is admitting to your opponent that they won fairly and that you respect that win. Regardless of context, you should say it. No exceptions.
You attach a lot of meaning to your 'gg'. When I say 'gg' I don't mean that. Therefore, when I don't say it, I'm not specifically denying that.
You are entitled to think whatever you want about the meaning of 'gg' when you choose to say it. I think your line of reasoning is perfectly reasonable for why you feel motivated to always say it, regardless of context.
But it sounds like you are assuming that the reason why people don't say gg is because it wasn't a good game (such as because they made a mistake). This is not the case, and was not implied in the OP.
Edit: lol about squash
Edit2: Your reasoning works well to backup the claim that you should follow the 'gg' etiquette in major events or vs players who are doing you a 'favor' etc.
I generally type GG unless the opponent is being BM or cheesed me like a 5pool or something, or if they change race at the last minute and the game didn't show. Otherwise I type GG to let them know I'm giving up and acknowledge that they won the game by outplaying me.
As someone mentioned with the face to face chess example you don't just walk away unless you're a sore loser. You admit defeat and then leave. Walking away without a word smacks of petulance to me. I don't chase people up or hassle them if they don't gg. I just don't re them.
On August 19 2008 11:21 Kwark wrote: As someone mentioned with the face to face chess example you don't just walk away unless you're a sore loser. You admit defeat and then leave. Walking away without a word smacks of petulance to me. I don't chase people up or hassle them if they don't gg. I just don't re them.
If I ever play starcraft at a lan or another IRL event, I will always do something analogous to 'gg' and you are right about that.
koreans on pubs, say gg before the game starts. annoys the fuck out of me.
evne though i know it's just incorrectly used, and theres no possible way it could be used coherently before the game ends (or begins for that matter), my mind still tries to extract some sort of sense out of it... which is hte process by which i get annoyed.
for example, i thot "is it supposed to mean, 'lets have a good game?''
absolutely not, its jsut plain WRONG to say gg before the game starts. yet it's so prevalent. and i can't resist but try to force it to make sense and end up with crap.
So saying something analogous to gg in real life (like saying "I give") is akin to saying gg in Starcraft
Saying something in real life is a more powerful version of saying gg, and playing someone face to face is more powerful than playing them online
I agree with you about the arbitrary attachment people have to the word "gg," but not saying "gg" is like a less powerful version of leaving the room in chess. It won't hurt me or anything, I just feel a tiny bit weird
edited like 4 times cuz I messed up my more's and lesses
Like someone had said that you always say gg - even to random pubs, what if that random pub was lastshadow or something? If you didn't say gg is that fine? Lol. (this is if it's his smurf and it ends up being found out).
I do not buy into the idea of gg being a courtesy or anything, because I do not see it as one. Typing out those two letters is simply the 'loser' throwing in the towel so to speak, the full stop which typemarks the end of the game. Hence all of my losses have those two letters used at the end, but it isn't as if I feel anything when an opponent refuses to type them out. People get angry with their losses after all.
Half the problem with the use of the term is the different interpretations people have of it. Some see it as an implication the game was good, others simply see it as the signpost for the loser admitting defeat.
On August 19 2008 11:36 Camlito wrote: Like someone had said that you always say gg - even to random pubs, what if that random pub was lastshadow or something? If you didn't say gg is that fine? Lol. (this is if it's his smurf and it ends up being found out).
It's tough to know in a random pub- for a random pub, everyone applies their own rules.
For me personally, I always say gg for the same reason as above. Whoever the other person, is, in fact, taking the time out to play me. Good or bad, but if I gg it means that I'm the one who lost, and they almost always deserve it. If they didn't deserve it, they wouldn't have won.
I think that there may be something in the statement/etiquette about admitting that starcraft is a game of skill, but especially in pubs it cannot matter that much (you're not usually going to see the other person again ever).
On August 19 2008 11:14 Purind wrote: I always type gg even if it wasn't a gg, and if I really thought it was a gg I'll say "nice job" or something of the sort
To me, gg is like a handshake, or a "I give." Chill mentioned this before. If you were playing chess with someone (live, not online), and the guy check mated you, would you just walk away without saying anything about the game? Not sure if that would be considered rude, but I would consider it awkward if you just left the room.
What do you do after losing in a board game like chess or go or whatever? I always say something, maybe a "Ahh, you win" or "Ahh, you got me with that move." I just see silence as a weird way to end a game
I'm not offended or anything if someone doesn't type gg, but I do have this feeling of emptiness. Not as awkward as if someone just lost at chess and left the room silently, but a similar, less weird, version of that
I'm ranked top 100 in the United States for my age group in chess. and I have this to say. In a real tournament, especially money tournaments, shaking hands after the game is almost compulsory. Really BM people ask for draws when they are obviously losing or walk off without a handshake. As for online games, I leave most of the time without a gg and most people do it. We're just online to get some practice, not to become some chivalrous knight defending a fair damsel.
I don't type it. Maybe they will hate me. Honestly I hope they do, because the ones who do are annoying assholes, and maybe they'll stay away because I didn't type it. If so, great. If they start some flame war with me instead, that's also great because then I can either, use them for entertainment, or if that's not working, I always can squelch. It's all win/win. Why type it, unless I need to suck up to someone so they will play me more? Sometimes that's the case, but then again it's more likely they'll respect you more for not sucking up, or want to play you out of spite because you don't type it, etc. etc. All in all, how the fuck can we care? I just want to play broodwar. I'll type pussy pussy applesauce if I want to.
I tell you what, guys, how about we petition Blizzard to add five lines of code to BW in their next patch, the effect being that if someone leaves the game without sending a phrase containing "gg" in it, the opponent's computer automatically fabricates the message for them. That way, bleeding-hearts who feel the need to have an ASCII repetition staring them in the face can have it, and those who are less needy in terms of closure
Personally, I don't think typing out is really anything deep, like lessening the pain of losing or something. For me, it's more of a custom and a way to conclude the game than actually saying "good game". I always type out and respond with 'gg' when my opponent types out, regardless of whether I thought it was a good game or not. I don't consider it bm if people leave without gg'ing and I really don't see any reason to. I think it's better not to look too far into it.
On August 19 2008 11:57 Captain wrote: I tell you what, guys, how about we petition Blizzard to add five lines of code to BW in their next patch, the effect being that if someone leaves the game without sending a phrase containing "gg" in it, the opponent's computer automatically fabricates the message for them. That way, bleeding-hearts who feel the need to have an ASCII repetition staring them in the face can have it, and those who are less needy in terms of closure
Lol! Well I'm trying to be polite to the traditionalists :p
typing GG has become a habit for me no matter the outcome of the game personally i dont really care if people type out, what kinda irritates me is when people say GG and then not leave for another 10 minutes
Just say gg, having these "rules" about when you say it is hilariously stupid.
"My ethical code states that the game must be over 10 minutes, and there must have been at least 3 close confrontations, no cheese is to be involved, I must have gotten at least 8 hours of sleep the preceding night and had breakfast in the morning, and if I suspect you of hacking I surely will not say gg."
I can't even comprehend why anyone wouldn't just say "gg" every time. It means resignation "you beat me." The notion that "I will not say gg if it was not a gg" is silly.
as some people said, saying GG is like a handshake.. its never bm to say gg when you are losing or to respond to a losers gg.
its just like tennis.. and no it doesn't have to be a broadcasted sport. in my beer league hockey games both teams shake hands, same in for fun league tennis matches - its just good sportsmanship.
On August 19 2008 12:35 Ancestral wrote: How is this 7 pages.
Just say gg, having these "rules" about when you say it is hilariously stupid.
"My ethical code states that the game must be over 10 minutes, and there must have been at least 3 close confrontations, no cheese is to be involved, I must have gotten at least 8 hours of sleep the preceding night and had breakfast in the morning, and if I suspect you of hacking I surely will not say gg."
I can't even comprehend why anyone wouldn't just say "gg" every time. It means resignation "you beat me." The notion that "I will not say gg if it was not a gg" is silly.
Amazing how person after person thinks the reason to not say 'gg' is because it wasn't a good game -_-a.
Ancestral, the reason why this is 7 pages is because there are two conflicting schools of thought, and both are fairly reasonable. Why should we just say gg? Why can't we say gg when we feel like it? Are you going to take offense? You shouldn't. I agree with you that we shouldn't set up these complex rules, and that's why I like the simple explanation that you should gg in major events, or when you are playing someone much better and more experienced than you. Not that hard to do honestly.
In all fairness, when my opponent doesn't say gg, I don't cry or kick the desk or throw controllers across the room like I did when I played SNES back in the day.
And even when they hide buildings, I just think it's hilarious. I guess as a person who has always said gg, in all circumstances, I wonder why people can't just do the same. But before I played StarCraft, I watched it, and they always said gg, so in my brain it is most reasonable.
I always try my best to say gg to zerg and terran players. I tend to respect terran players the most like in TvT's theres like a 95% chance i'll call gg if i lose. For TvZ's there's like a 85%, and that 15% is if i lose to 4pools, 5pools...etc. And lastly for TvP, i almost never say gg when i lose to DT rush's, bulldogs, dt drops... occasionally reaver drops. My TvP ratio is like 40% considering a lot of toss's cheese on iccup.
Oh as far as people who hide pylons and stuff around the map, I actually enjoy it (unless I'm in some big rush or something which never really happens). Honestly it just gives me more time to soak in the win and have that good winning feeling even longer. Also I usually just chat on /f m for a bit while I hunt shit down. Knowing that I am a more manner person and they are just delaying their loss for some reason feels good for me : ] More time to soak in the glory.
On August 19 2008 12:56 A3iL3r0n wrote: I say get the fuck over yourself. You already won. If your opponent doesn't gg, well don't get all righteous. Jesus. Who gives a fuck.
I'd say don't get all righteous but also don't get all angry if you think it isn't necessary and people contend it is. Like you said, "who gives a fuck?"
For me GG only signifies the end of the match, and is just the loser admitting defeat. I always say it when I lose even though its not an actual good game since for me it just doesnt mean what it actually means.
Man its just being polite to say gg, like if you play a footy or soccer match you always go to the other side shake hands and say good game, its the same in sc. Its just respect for the other player weather its a win or a loss, dosent matter weater the guy cheese you or you thought it was a good game, its just polite to do something so simple
On August 19 2008 10:02 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Much the same way as shaking hands after a game or bowing after a bout in some martial arts. I think the idea is to provide some kind of closure to the game.
During those games you spend the entire time trying to undermine or overcome your opponent. Generally you will subconciously dehumanise them as just 'an opponent' rather than as a fellow human being while you are focused. Saying gg provides the closure indicating the end to this mentality, eg since the game is over. It is meant to indicate a sorta no hard feelings attitude, 'we just played a game where we tried to kill each other's stuff, but it's not personal'.
I'm with Chill on this one, just leaving a game feels abrupt, like a chess player just standing up and leaving the table without resigning their king.
On the other hands, playing with friends is one of the few times i don't bother gg, although i mostly do it out of habit anyway. Since your probably going to talk to them in channel anyway, it's not like the last impression you leave with them is you leaving a game abruptly.
QFT. In-game you're doing your best to defeat your opponent. But back in the real-world, you have nothing against this person. Saying GG signifies that you recognize it's just a game and that you're back in the real-world mindset. The secondary meaning of "I give up" is RTS specific.
On August 19 2008 07:14 ScarFace wrote: I think you should gg as the loser, but I don't think the winner has to say it. GGing as a loser is sort of paying your respect to the better opponent, admitting they played well and respectably.
Why should the loser be held to guidelines that the winner isn't held to? That aside, I don't see why the loser should have to 'pay your respect' to the better opponent (as I mentioned in the OP). If you lose, and leave without making a fuss, and don't complain or claim you made mistakes, that should be good enough. If you want to pay further respects (especially vs a significantly more skilled/known player) then feel free.
The winner shouldn't do anything because he won, he is dominant, its natural for those beaten in submission to pay their respects, acknowledge their betters. A game is no different, if you don't do it, its considered bad, its a universal truth.
The only time the loser should not gg is, well, when the game is terrible. I mean losing to a lame strategy, hit and run tactics...anything that could make you really frustrated, I don't think you have to say gg for, because both the loser and the winner wouldn't really expect to give or receive respect in a bullshit game.
On August 19 2008 07:19 micronesia wrote:I think it's risky to say you should gg at some times in casual games, but not at other times. It's a fine line and people are bound to get offended. The two ways to avoid this are either to always type out, or just not attach as much meaning to it, and as you can tell I prefer the latter solution.
How can it be risky? It's a game. Someones gets offended, boo hoo.
On August 19 2008 07:14 ScarFace wrote: I think you should gg as the loser, but I don't think the winner has to say it. GGing as a loser is sort of paying your respect to the better opponent, admitting they played well and respectably.
Why should the loser be held to guidelines that the winner isn't held to? That aside, I don't see why the loser should have to 'pay your respect' to the better opponent (as I mentioned in the OP). If you lose, and leave without making a fuss, and don't complain or claim you made mistakes, that should be good enough. If you want to pay further respects (especially vs a significantly more skilled/known player) then feel free.
The winner shouldn't do anything because he won, he is dominant, its natural for those beaten in submission to pay their respects, acknowledge their betters. A game is no different, if you don't do it, its considered bad, its a universal truth.
The only time the loser should not gg is, well, when the game is terrible. I mean losing to a lame strategy, hit and run tactics...anything that could make you really frustrated, I don't think you have to say gg for, because both the loser and the winner wouldn't really expect to give or receive respect in a bullshit game.
On August 19 2008 07:19 micronesia wrote:I think it's risky to say you should gg at some times in casual games, but not at other times. It's a fine line and people are bound to get offended. The two ways to avoid this are either to always type out, or just not attach as much meaning to it, and as you can tell I prefer the latter solution.
How can it be risky? It's a game. Someones gets offended, boo hoo.
The winner is held to lower standards of gm? Lol wtf that's not how a mannered game should be.
Why should the loser have to submit? That's not why you gg... it's not to admit that they are better... it's to admit that the game is over... and possibly that you appreciate the manner...
You're saying 'boo hoo' about people getting offended.... and yet the one who's getting offended is you... when I don't type out. LOL
saying GG is very important. it's saying you surrender, it's being respectful, it's showing youre not just so pissed you just leave right away in a rush. if youre playing a game and all of a sudden your opponent just leaves out of nowhere, the game doesnt have a nice closure to it. it doesn't feel as much of a win that way.. especially if there's the possibilty the person left for other reasons than giving up. it also shows what kind of person the loser is
just type gg you faggots what's the big fucking deal. oh well it wasnt a gg blahblahblah. its common courtesy, acknowledgment, and a sign of respect motherfucker its not hard.
On August 19 2008 07:14 ScarFace wrote: I think you should gg as the loser, but I don't think the winner has to say it. GGing as a loser is sort of paying your respect to the better opponent, admitting they played well and respectably.
Why should the loser be held to guidelines that the winner isn't held to? That aside, I don't see why the loser should have to 'pay your respect' to the better opponent (as I mentioned in the OP). If you lose, and leave without making a fuss, and don't complain or claim you made mistakes, that should be good enough. If you want to pay further respects (especially vs a significantly more skilled/known player) then feel free.
The winner shouldn't do anything because he won, he is dominant, its natural for those beaten in submission to pay their respects, acknowledge their betters. A game is no different, if you don't do it, its considered bad, its a universal truth.
The only time the loser should not gg is, well, when the game is terrible. I mean losing to a lame strategy, hit and run tactics...anything that could make you really frustrated, I don't think you have to say gg for, because both the loser and the winner wouldn't really expect to give or receive respect in a bullshit game.
On August 19 2008 07:19 micronesia wrote:I think it's risky to say you should gg at some times in casual games, but not at other times. It's a fine line and people are bound to get offended. The two ways to avoid this are either to always type out, or just not attach as much meaning to it, and as you can tell I prefer the latter solution.
How can it be risky? It's a game. Someones gets offended, boo hoo.
The winner is held to lower standards of gm? Lol wtf that's not how a mannered game should be.
Why should the loser have to submit? That's not why you gg... it's not to admit that they are better... it's to admit that the game is over... and possibly that you appreciate the manner...
You're saying 'boo hoo' about people getting offended.... and yet the one who's getting offended is you... when I don't type out. LOL
Who says im offended when you don't type out? I just see the ways thing 'should' be, and posted my thoughts on them. GGing is giving respect to the person who is better than you, admitting you lost legitimately and acknowledging that he played better than you. Not gging shows the opposite. Simple.
I usually call gg no matter what happens. Even when I lose I still call it simply because its good sportsmanship. However, I get pissed when someone calls gg for me. Like they assume I lost so they ask like "gg?"
On August 19 2008 14:02 Zelniq wrote: saying GG is very important. it's saying you surrender, it's being respectful, it's showing youre not just so pissed you just leave right away in a rush. if youre playing a game and all of a sudden your opponent just leaves out of nowhere, the game doesnt have a nice closure to it. it doesn't feel as much of a win that way.. especially if there's the possibilty the person left for other reasons than giving up. it also shows what kind of person the loser is
Actually, leaving says you surrender :p
You are saying you should gg to prove you are not pissed off... but why should you have to? Guilty until proven innocent? You need a gg for closure? I don't think it's necessary at all.
On August 19 2008 14:02 mahnini wrote: just type gg you faggots what's the big fucking deal. oh well it wasnt a gg blahblahblah. its common courtesy, acknowledgment, and a sign of respect motherfucker its not hard.
Congratulations mahnini on being the 20th person to pretend the only reason to not type out 'gg' is because 'it wasn't a gg'
I agree, typing out 'gg' isn't hard. Obviously that's not what this discussion is about -_-a
On August 19 2008 07:14 ScarFace wrote: I think you should gg as the loser, but I don't think the winner has to say it. GGing as a loser is sort of paying your respect to the better opponent, admitting they played well and respectably.
Why should the loser be held to guidelines that the winner isn't held to? That aside, I don't see why the loser should have to 'pay your respect' to the better opponent (as I mentioned in the OP). If you lose, and leave without making a fuss, and don't complain or claim you made mistakes, that should be good enough. If you want to pay further respects (especially vs a significantly more skilled/known player) then feel free.
The winner shouldn't do anything because he won, he is dominant, its natural for those beaten in submission to pay their respects, acknowledge their betters. A game is no different, if you don't do it, its considered bad, its a universal truth.
The only time the loser should not gg is, well, when the game is terrible. I mean losing to a lame strategy, hit and run tactics...anything that could make you really frustrated, I don't think you have to say gg for, because both the loser and the winner wouldn't really expect to give or receive respect in a bullshit game.
On August 19 2008 07:19 micronesia wrote:I think it's risky to say you should gg at some times in casual games, but not at other times. It's a fine line and people are bound to get offended. The two ways to avoid this are either to always type out, or just not attach as much meaning to it, and as you can tell I prefer the latter solution.
How can it be risky? It's a game. Someones gets offended, boo hoo.
The winner is held to lower standards of gm? Lol wtf that's not how a mannered game should be.
Why should the loser have to submit? That's not why you gg... it's not to admit that they are better... it's to admit that the game is over... and possibly that you appreciate the manner...
You're saying 'boo hoo' about people getting offended.... and yet the one who's getting offended is you... when I don't type out. LOL
Who says im offended when you don't type out? I just see the ways thing 'should' be, and posted my thoughts on them. GGing is giving respect to the person who is better than you, admitting you lost legitimately and acknowledging that he played better than you. Not gging shows the opposite. Simple.
No, you see things the way you think they should be... and you don't seem to be aware of the fact that the way you think things should be is not necessarily the way they actually are.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
b.net was born with diablo 1. With diablo 1 came the biggest trash talking nerdfest the world has ever seen. Since then SC has become the 'manner' game where people interpret "gg" as manner.
IMO saying gl hf gg isn't manner, it's more like habit. It's like when i get to work at 8 AM and someone walks up to me in a cheery voice and says "GOOD MORNING." I want to fucking strangle them on the spot, but to not look like a complete dick face i say good morning and try to get away from them as soon as possible. Does that make me an asshole? Maybe, but i'd like to think that I just don't like to be talked to when I'm tired and would prefer to be left alone, however, I've learned from past experience that people say they want you to be honest but more often than not they want you to be what they want you to be.
Maybe I'm the only one but to me, saying GG because it's "polite" and not because it was a good game is retarded.
On August 19 2008 14:02 mahnini wrote: just type gg you faggots what's the big fucking deal. oh well it wasnt a gg blahblahblah. its common courtesy, acknowledgment, and a sign of respect motherfucker its not hard.
Congratulations mahnini on being the 20th person to pretend the only reason to not type out 'gg' is because 'it wasn't a gg'
I agree, typing out 'gg' isn't hard. Obviously that's not what this discussion is about -_-a
If someone doesn't say GG then I don't take much issue with that, but when it's so little effort to maintain what many consider as good etiquette then you might as well do it.
On August 19 2008 10:02 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Much the same way as shaking hands after a game or bowing after a bout in some martial arts. I think the idea is to provide some kind of closure to the game.
During those games you spend the entire time trying to undermine or overcome your opponent. Generally you will subconciously dehumanise them as just 'an opponent' rather than as a fellow human being while you are focused. Saying gg provides the closure indicating the end to this mentality, eg since the game is over. It is meant to indicate a sorta no hard feelings attitude, 'we just played a game where we tried to kill each other's stuff, but it's not personal'.
I'm with Chill on this one, just leaving a game feels abrupt, like a chess player just standing up and leaving the table without resigning their king.
On the other hands, playing with friends is one of the few times i don't bother gg, although i mostly do it out of habit anyway. Since your probably going to talk to them in channel anyway, it's not like the last impression you leave with them is you leaving a game abruptly.
QFT. In-game you're doing your best to defeat your opponent. But back in the real-world, you have nothing against this person. Saying GG signifies that you recognize it's just a game and that you're back in the real-world mindset. The secondary meaning of "I give up" is RTS specific.
Well said. It also helps prevent yourself from becoming too attached to the game. Being angry at having played badly, or because you were cheesed, doesn't help anything.
On August 19 2008 14:02 mahnini wrote: just type gg you faggots what's the big fucking deal. oh well it wasnt a gg blahblahblah. its common courtesy, acknowledgment, and a sign of respect motherfucker its not hard.
Congratulations mahnini on being the 20th person to pretend the only reason to not type out 'gg' is because 'it wasn't a gg'
I agree, typing out 'gg' isn't hard. Obviously that's not what this discussion is about -_-a
Um, what's the reason then?
Because there's no logical reason to type out other than to satisfy the illogical desire of the opponent who won...
No, you see things the way you think they should be... and you don't seem to be aware of the fact that the way you think things should be is not necessarily the way they actually are.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
What are you babbling about exactly? GGing is admitting you were outplayed, whether you acknowledge it or not, it is paying respects to a superior opponent- whether they be superior in general or simply bested you in that game. It's all about the subconscious interpretation of such a message, its like being bested in battle and bowing before your conquerer.
On August 19 2008 14:02 mahnini wrote: just type gg you faggots what's the big fucking deal. oh well it wasnt a gg blahblahblah. its common courtesy, acknowledgment, and a sign of respect motherfucker its not hard.
Congratulations mahnini on being the 20th person to pretend the only reason to not type out 'gg' is because 'it wasn't a gg'
I agree, typing out 'gg' isn't hard. Obviously that's not what this discussion is about -_-a
Um, what's the reason then?
Because there's no logical reason to type out other than to satisfy the illogical desire of the opponent who won...
On August 19 2008 14:02 mahnini wrote: just type gg you faggots what's the big fucking deal. oh well it wasnt a gg blahblahblah. its common courtesy, acknowledgment, and a sign of respect motherfucker its not hard.
No, you see things the way you think they should be... and you don't seem to be aware of the fact that the way you think things should be is not necessarily the way they actually are.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
What are you babbling about exactly? GGing is admitting you were outplayed, whether you acknowledge it or not, it is paying respects to a superior opponent- whether they be superior in general or simply bested you in that game. It's all about the subconscious interpretation of such a message, its like being bested in battle and bowing before your conquerer.
Babbling? You just completely changed your stance and tried to pass it off as though you have been consistent. Anyway, you seem to think the loser has a responsibility to bow to the winner. That's horrifyingly disgusting.+ Show Spoiler +
Yes I am using the word bow metaphorically, don't intentionally misunderstand this.
My standards: GG - If I feel my opponent beat me fair and square and deserves the win "GG" - If i feel the opponent had to gay me and im a sarcastic crybaby T_T "F U" - If your tot)cloud( and cheese me @ a D rank game :@!
On August 19 2008 15:38 SkepTicAL wrote: My standards: GG - If I feel my opponent beat me fair and square and deserves the win "GG" - If i feel the opponent had to gay me and im a sarcastic crybaby T_T "F U" - If your tot)cloud( and cheese me @ a D rank game :@!
Lol.
When I was playing Sea[Shield] on tlattack I was going to say:
- I type GG if it was actually a good game, we both tried (or at least i did and he still won) - instances where it wont = worker stack, i wasn't feeling well and couldnt play my best, my mouse jams (i had a ball mouse) and i misclick my army into death, i get some popup in the middle of a game which screws me over, etc - when i dont gg for some reason or another(as described above) and leave, then after the game they say 'gg' it pisses me off, because i feel inclined to say it back, even though it wasen't a good game - i will always say gg back if they do, even if i won because they were in one of my 'didnt gg because some reason or another' circumstances, unless they say gg then leave without giving me time to gg back, because it give me the impression they are embarassed and didnt want to see me 'gg' back.
I say gg almost all the time unless i get cheesed pretty hard. Sometimes i have to force myself to type gg when i lose the game for myself by some stupid mistake or something but still... you should almost always type out =\
On August 19 2008 15:38 SkepTicAL wrote: My standards: GG - If I feel my opponent beat me fair and square and deserves the win "GG" - If i feel the opponent had to gay me and im a sarcastic crybaby T_T "F U" - If your tot)cloud( and cheese me @ a D rank game :@!
Lol.
When I was playing Sea[Shield] on tlattack I was going to say:
gg TOO GOOD YOU PRO?
But I resisted the temptation.
Reminds me of this like hacker zerg map spam text in the begging
U LADDER HIGH? GOSU? etc etc was a fun map but eventually me and my friends figured out how to beat the comp
Typing 'gg' is like shaking hands after tennis game, u'll do it even if u were crushed etc... I cant understand these ppl here who skip it, as u can see here many ppl here whats to see it, so is it so hard to type 2 letters...
On August 19 2008 09:57 RaiZ wrote: Seriously dude, how old are you ? It's within nature to say gg when you lose, i don't care if the game was good or not because gg by its definition is now something like shaking hands after a sport's game. Simple as that.
You'll always see when someone get out of the field without giving a single shaking hand he'll become a bad mannered person, simply because he doesn't want to admit his loss. How hard is that to understand ?
So i fell offended by nature when i'm winning games against ppl that just leave without any reason. If you think it's stupid then i don't know what to say to you.
It's even worse when someones say : Lol re ? God this is even more deppressing. Would've been way better if he said gg re ?
If you are going to be rude at least make an argument that can hold water.
It's within nature to say gg when you lose? What the heck does that even mean? Taken an unwritten rule as given, and referring to it as nature, is not a good way to convince anyone of anything. Again, you are making a mistake several people have made when you assume the reason why you don't say 'gg' is because it wasn't a good game.... wtf I wish everyone would stop thinking that!
You are comparing a team sport (probably in a somewhat high level competition) to a low level game for fun or D/C on iccup.... they don't compare.
You feel offended because of your assumptions... not because they are bm. It's rude make someone else do something meaningless in order for you to feel happy, and then complain when they don't comply.
I agree with you about the last thing. There are 10001 ways to be rude during/after a game.
My amateur level tennisgames back in 2000, we shaked hands after the game... So I would compare... Ppl like u, who know that some ppl get upset when opponent dosent say 'GG', yet u dont do it... I would say u r potential a-hole...
Also when someone leaves without saying GG I generally assume they are angry with the game. Not that its really important, its just the view I have. But it doesnt seem like people leave without a GG all that often to me.
I don't feel it's always necessary to say gg, because I take it for it's literal meaning. To please the people who just want a response after a game, you could simply say, "that's game", then leave. I think it's not so much the gg they want, but the satisfaction that you know the game has come to an end. Or you could thank them for the game, if they're much better than you.
I always type gg when I lose no matter what (It's a habit by now ). I don't really care if my opponent doesn't type gg. In that position, I'm more focused on the fact that I won .
Also, when I type out gg, I don't wait for him to do the same. I just leave. If I were the winner, I wouldn't want him to hang around after he had said gg
I generally say gg after games, though it's understandable if the other person leaves without saying it, as I do sometimes also if I'm pissed at myself or something for playing bad. As long as there's no other bm stuff going on I don't mind if someone says it or not.
On August 19 2008 17:39 dream-_- wrote: Its rude because its considered rude, its polite because its considered polite.
Truth.
This is a side-topic, but I'm curious, what are the etiquette standards in other games?
I used to play a multiplayer tetris game called Tetrinet a lot. There'd be a 1 second delay between dropping pieces so each game would last about... I dunno say 2-3 minutes. At the end of every game, it was customary to say gg, even though the same group of people (up to 6) will be sticking around and playing more games, which would start pretty much immediately. Most of the time people wouldn't say anything before leaving the server though when they were done playing.
Then they released an updated version called Tetrifast that removed the piece delay, so you could go somewhere around 3x the speed of the original game, and average game times dropped to like 30 seconds or something. Games would still start almost immediately after. In Tetrifast I stopped saying gg after every game (as did maybe 2/3rds of the other players), since everyone saying gg every 31 seconds gets pretty annoying. The tetrifast community also was smaller, since all the noobs would basically get instantly thrashed (imagine someone starting out in SC, learning what the units are, and going straight to ICCUP). So everyone kind of knew of all the other players, although it wasn't very chatty typically. So what I did there instead was not to say "gg" after every game, but say "good games" or something before leaving the server (and stick around a bit to give others a chance to return the favour). Not everyone would say anything would leaving though.
So I'm not really sure what theories to draw from this. There's no clear relationship between saying "gg" more and community size or whether or not you're leaving. How does it work in other game communities?
On August 19 2008 17:39 dream-_- wrote: Its rude because its considered rude, its polite because its considered polite.
Truth.
This is a side-topic, but I'm curious, what are the etiquette standards in other games?
I used to play a multiplayer tetris game called Tetrinet a lot. There'd be a 1 second delay between dropping pieces so each game would last about... I dunno say 2-3 minutes. At the end of every game, it was customary to say gg, even though the same group of people (up to 6) will be sticking around and playing more games, which would start pretty much immediately. Most of the time people wouldn't say anything before leaving the server though when they were done playing.
Then they released an updated version called Tetrifast that removed the piece delay, so you could go somewhere around 3x the speed of the original game, and average game times dropped to like 30 seconds or something. Games would still start almost immediately after. In Tetrifast I stopped saying gg after every game (as did maybe 2/3rds of the other players), since everyone saying gg every 31 seconds gets pretty annoying. The tetrifast community also was smaller, since all the noobs would basically get instantly thrashed (imagine someone starting out in SC, learning what the units are, and going straight to ICCUP). So everyone kind of knew of all the other players, although it wasn't very chatty typically. So what I did there instead was not to say "gg" after every game, but say "good games" or something before leaving the server (and stick around a bit to give others a chance to return the favour). Not everyone would say anything would leaving though.
So I'm not really sure what theories to draw from this. There's no clear relationship between saying "gg" more and community size or whether or not you're leaving. How does it work in other game communities?
I play Guild Wars GvG competitively, where there's on average maybe 200-300 or so active guilds with 8 players on a team (though lately the community has been getting smaller and smaller) and usually you'll get 3-5 people out of 8 on each team saying gg after games. There's a lot more trash talking between guilds that don't like each other though after games too, and it's not uncommon to have no one on the losing team say gg after they lose, usually because they're probably busy arguing with each other about what went wrong on ventrilo. In the tournament playoffs at the end of each month you get more people gging each other though, since it's a higher standard of playing then. It's never really considered bm in that game to not say gg though, but a lot of people still do out of habit or just to be good mannered.
On August 19 2008 20:46 nttea wrote: saying GG is like shaking hands after a tennis game, you're just sposed to do it DAMNIT! but the occasional ragequit has it's charms too
only this is virtual so pple tend 2 neglect manner/etiqutte
This thread makes me just wanna be really bm for no reason in particular. Yeah, it's somewhat lame if people don't say it, but it certainly doesn't warrent a bunch of people bitching about it like it's the end of the world.
The only time I think you look like an assclown if you don't do it would be if you're in a cw, showmatch or something high skilled that people are watching. Who cares if some D chobo ragequit your ass. If you're in the semis for TSL and your opponent calls you a fag and quits, yeah, then I can see getting your panties in a twist.
edit: I'd like to add that any idiot who doesn't leave or gg or whatever then they're very clearly behind deserves to have their face rubbed into the ground. If you're not gonna acknowledge defeat in some manner when I've killed your most of your shit and you're done, I'm going to say GG, probably about 12 times, with a few LOLZ! thrown in.
I think it's just respectful. Despite the literal meaning of "good game", typing gg carries so much more meaning than that - it's a highly condensed way of saying "thank you", "I appreciate the game", and so on. It conveys a sense of having played in good faith and serves to acknowledge the same in your opponent. Manners and platitudes are silly things like that - they're said so often that they seem to be arbitrary and without meaning, but really they convey a general mindset which, when surrounded by such mindsets, we perhaps take for granted.
Consider the following - if you always type gg I'm sure nobody will bat an eye, but every time you don't type gg you always leave your opponent wondering why you didn't type gg - which of the above symbolic meanings were you attempting to deliberately not convey? Did you not enjoy the game? Did I do something to offend you? Do you think I was hacking? What? So if one feels that there is little of use conveyed by gg, then the question can simply be turned on its head. If it doesn't mean much to type gg then what does it mean NOT to type gg. By virtue of gg being such a platitude I think that not typing gg is a more powerful statement than typing gg. Curious how such constructs work.
Bah. I can't help but feel ashamed by the attitude along tl.bw players... :[
On August 19 2008 12:47 micronesia wrote: You are comparing a team sport (probably in a somewhat high level competition) to a low level game for fun or D/C on iccup.... they don't compare.
Huh ? Sorry mister but we DO compare. We DO shake hand even when it's a low lvl competition. We DO shake hands after a practice game. The way you mean it litteraly means that you don't want to say good bye to a person leaving. It's called being rude. In Starcraft it's called being BM.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
So what ? There's no reasons to not say it because they just outplayed for maybe their first time in a lifetime. Also saying gg is by no mean saying like your opponent deserve to be respectfull, no. I said it once, i'll say it again, saying gg is admitting your lose because your opponent were just more carefull. Simple. I don't care if they are truest pathetic losers, or almighty uber gods, it's just within nature to say gg when you lose.
Because there's no logical reason to type out other than to satisfy the illogical desire of the opponent who won...
Is it just coming out of your you-know-what ? How is it to satisfy the desire of the opponent ? It's your mind that say it not ours. There's no fucking way that would satisfy our ego or whatever you call it, it's called being good mannered. Simple.
I prefer to say "fuck you dog mother chobo cunt" or something along those lines. It makes it very clear how I feel and leaves nothing to interpretation in any case.
Conversely, though I think it is in good taste to "GG" back if the loser "GG's" you. Simply because you won, so you should be gracious. But that's as far as I will go. Trying to enact some sort of social penalty solely based on whether someone GG's or not is ridiculous. If you think that you have some sort of superior moral standing because you GG, then you need to re-evaluate your life.
Going back to my earlier point, if someone loses to you and does not GG, I can't conceive of why that would be BM. You already had your way with them in the game. Furthermore, you are expecting them to concede to your silly-and-meaningless standard of having them acknowledge in a friendly way that they lost, or you will call them BM. You've already won, case closed.
On August 20 2008 02:15 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: It's not the goddamn end of the world if someone doesn't type gg to you. Why is it even such a big deal?
If you have ever been on a sports team, and the game is over, what did you do? You shook hands and would say "good game" or what have you in your native language. It is common courtesy and respect to both yourself and your opponent. When you leave without saying "gg" it feels like you are instead saying it was not a good game because you were not the winning player. How selfish and ignorant is that?
Whenever I'm in any game, if it be 3v3 Zero Clutter no Rules, or a Clan War, or at the WCG, I always type "gg" because it shows manners and respect. I'm not some selfish ass fuckface who doesn't realize that loses are more valuable than wins. When you lose, you can learn how you lost, and what to change in the future to make yourself a better player. When you win, you can just say, "I played well". Instead, you can learn and become a much better player.
Its a game on the internet sure, but what you do on the internet can create real life reactions too.
I would much rather go to a LAN and meet people who I used to play with online and be friends right off the bat, instead of going there and explain why I'm being an asshole on the "internet". The internet is just a portal to the rest of the world, it lets you interact with other REAL people, all who have REAL feelings, and REAL emotions. Why do you think at WCG 07 Mondragon, iNControl, Nyoken, etc... got along so well so quick? Or the TeamLiquid meet up at WWI in Paris? It's because they were polite, and respected each other online, and were able to carry that over to in person.
Starcraft is no different, don't do something online you wouldn't do in real life.
Also, why do you think so many teams online, rely so deeply on manners? It's because manners are way more professional. So many teams including Excello, Meet Your Makers, Templars of Twilight, (my own team Revoltados), etc... declare that you must be mannered. When you are not showing good manners, and showing haste and childish behaviors, you can give the whole team a bad impression. For instance look at X17. Also, your sponsors are going to be getting the impression as well and you may as well lose their support.
If you just say "fuck you faggot" or whatever you say after you lose, go join X17 and you can be bad mannered to everyone you want, because that's the impression everyone already has of them. I can guarantee no one will invite you to anything, if it be invite tournaments, teams, etc... if you do not seem professional in the least bit.
Manners is the way to go, and "gg" is just a small part in it, but it means so much in the end.
On August 19 2008 12:47 micronesia wrote: You are comparing a team sport (probably in a somewhat high level competition) to a low level game for fun or D/C on iccup.... they don't compare.
Huh ? Sorry mister but we DO compare. We DO shake hand even when it's a low lvl competition. We DO shake hands after a practice game. The way you mean it litteraly means that you don't want to say good bye to a person leaving. It's called being rude. In Starcraft it's called being BM.
Why do we compare? What do you mean we do shake hands even when it's a low level competition? Throughout most of my life, handshaking has only occurred after high level or well-planned competitions. What are you drawing your conclusions from?
Why do you give a shit if someone you know who you played a fair game with for 10-15 minutes on the internet doesn't want to say goodbye? You are holding Starcraft to a much higher standard than anything... and shouldn't. BM IRL and BM on the internet are very different unfortunately.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
So what ? There's no reasons to not say it because they just outplayed for maybe their first time in a lifetime. Also saying gg is by no mean saying like your opponent deserve to be respectfull, no. I said it once, i'll say it again, saying gg is admitting your lose because your opponent were just more carefull. Simple. I don't care if they are truest pathetic losers, or almighty uber gods, it's just within nature to say gg when you lose.
Your teleological thinking serves nobody. I understand the motivations behind respecting your opponent. I knew before this thread began that you can lose to someone who simply outplayed you in that one particular game (by definition). You are shooting back at me the claim that gg is admitting your loss. Leaving the game and not forcing them to kill your buildings does that. GG is redundant and therefore unnecessary. And don't tell me I should say GG because it is "within nature" because that's the most useless argument I've seen yet (aside from the other cases of it earlier in the thread).
Because there's no logical reason to type out other than to satisfy the illogical desire of the opponent who won...
Is it just coming out of your you-know-what ? How is it to satisfy the desire of the opponent ? It's your mind that say it not ours. There's no fucking way that would satisfy our ego or whatever you call it, it's called being good mannered. Simple.
No, you see things the way you think they should be... and you don't seem to be aware of the fact that the way you think things should be is not necessarily the way they actually are.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
What are you babbling about exactly? GGing is admitting you were outplayed, whether you acknowledge it or not, it is paying respects to a superior opponent- whether they be superior in general or simply bested you in that game. It's all about the subconscious interpretation of such a message, its like being bested in battle and bowing before your conquerer.
Babbling? You just completely changed your stance and tried to pass it off as though you have been consistent. Anyway, you seem to think the loser has a responsibility to bow to the winner. That's horrifyingly disgusting.+ Show Spoiler +
Yes I am using the word bow metaphorically, don't intentionally misunderstand this.
No...I have been saying the same thing all along, actually.
Edit: How is 'bowing' disgusting? Its just a sign of respect over a good game, be it competitive or friendly.
No, you see things the way you think they should be... and you don't seem to be aware of the fact that the way you think things should be is not necessarily the way they actually are.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
What are you babbling about exactly? GGing is admitting you were outplayed, whether you acknowledge it or not, it is paying respects to a superior opponent- whether they be superior in general or simply bested you in that game. It's all about the subconscious interpretation of such a message, its like being bested in battle and bowing before your conquerer.
Babbling? You just completely changed your stance and tried to pass it off as though you have been consistent. Anyway, you seem to think the loser has a responsibility to bow to the winner. That's horrifyingly disgusting.+ Show Spoiler +
Yes I am using the word bow metaphorically, don't intentionally misunderstand this.
No...I have been saying the same thing all along, actually.
Oh well if you are stating that obvious claim then it is true by default.
More importantly, the disagreement was not about the topic of this thread, and it seems that you don't have further wishes to discuss it, so hopefully this thread has more or less run its course.
On August 20 2008 02:02 RaiZ wrote: Bah. I can't help but feel ashamed by the attitude along tl.bw players... :[
On August 19 2008 12:47 micronesia wrote: You are comparing a team sport (probably in a somewhat high level competition) to a low level game for fun or D/C on iccup.... they don't compare.
Huh ? Sorry mister but we DO compare. We DO shake hand even when it's a low lvl competition. We DO shake hands after a practice game. The way you mean it litteraly means that you don't want to say good bye to a person leaving. It's called being rude. In Starcraft it's called being BM.
Why do we compare? What do you mean we do shake hands even when it's a low level competition? Throughout most of my life, handshaking has only occurred after high level or well-planned competitions. What are you drawing your conclusions from?
Why do you give a shit if someone you know who you played a fair game with for 10-15 minutes on the internet doesn't want to say goodbye? You are holding Starcraft to a much higher standard than anything... and shouldn't. BM IRL and BM on the internet are very different unfortunately.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
So what ? There's no reasons to not say it because they just outplayed for maybe their first time in a lifetime. Also saying gg is by no mean saying like your opponent deserve to be respectfull, no. I said it once, i'll say it again, saying gg is admitting your lose because your opponent were just more carefull. Simple. I don't care if they are truest pathetic losers, or almighty uber gods, it's just within nature to say gg when you lose.
Your teleological thinking serves nobody. I understand the motivations behind respecting your opponent. I knew before this thread began that you can lose to someone who simply outplayed you in that one particular game (by definition). You are shooting back at me the claim that gg is admitting your loss. Leaving the game and not forcing them to kill your buildings does that. GG is redundant and therefore unnecessary. And don't tell me I should say GG because it is "within nature" because that's the most useless argument I've seen yet (aside from the other cases of it earlier in the thread).
Because there's no logical reason to type out other than to satisfy the illogical desire of the opponent who won...
Is it just coming out of your you-know-what ? How is it to satisfy the desire of the opponent ? It's your mind that say it not ours. There's no fucking way that would satisfy our ego or whatever you call it, it's called being good mannered. Simple.
Edit: couldn't resist that last part for some reason... guess it's been too many pages of this...
I have played floorball, basketball, table tennis, beer drinking contest... And every single time there is a gesture at the end that would be equivavent to the 'gg'. Even after 2x10 min on the lowest level after playing the biggest assholes in the world, you at least shake hands.
And Micronesia, above anything else, by saying gg most people mean the same as in other sports. 'good game/ thanks for playing'.
You show respect to your opponent and appreciate his (or the teams) presence in the game, without which it could not happen at all. This is the spirit of any sport, and I don't see why Starcraft should be anything different.
Raiz may try to glorify the meaning of the good game phrase too much, but it should be the comon courtesy and basic manners to type out no matter what.
On August 20 2008 02:02 RaiZ wrote: Bah. I can't help but feel ashamed by the attitude along tl.bw players... :[
On August 19 2008 12:47 micronesia wrote: You are comparing a team sport (probably in a somewhat high level competition) to a low level game for fun or D/C on iccup.... they don't compare.
Huh ? Sorry mister but we DO compare. We DO shake hand even when it's a low lvl competition. We DO shake hands after a practice game. The way you mean it litteraly means that you don't want to say good bye to a person leaving. It's called being rude. In Starcraft it's called being BM.
Why do we compare? What do you mean we do shake hands even when it's a low level competition? Throughout most of my life, handshaking has only occurred after high level or well-planned competitions. What are you drawing your conclusions from?
Why do you give a shit if someone you know who you played a fair game with for 10-15 minutes on the internet doesn't want to say goodbye? You are holding Starcraft to a much higher standard than anything... and shouldn't. BM IRL and BM on the internet are very different unfortunately.
You are also oversimplifying by saying GGing is giving respect to the person 'who is better than you' since many losses are to people who are worse than you. That's not the issue. As for admitting you lost... leaving the game does that quite sufficiently. The only way to not admit you lost is either to force your opponent to eliminate buildings, or to say something bm. Your logic fails unless someone already subscribes to your school of thought.
So what ? There's no reasons to not say it because they just outplayed for maybe their first time in a lifetime. Also saying gg is by no mean saying like your opponent deserve to be respectfull, no. I said it once, i'll say it again, saying gg is admitting your lose because your opponent were just more carefull. Simple. I don't care if they are truest pathetic losers, or almighty uber gods, it's just within nature to say gg when you lose.
Your teleological thinking serves nobody. I understand the motivations behind respecting your opponent. I knew before this thread began that you can lose to someone who simply outplayed you in that one particular game (by definition). You are shooting back at me the claim that gg is admitting your loss. Leaving the game and not forcing them to kill your buildings does that. GG is redundant and therefore unnecessary. And don't tell me I should say GG because it is "within nature" because that's the most useless argument I've seen yet (aside from the other cases of it earlier in the thread).
Because there's no logical reason to type out other than to satisfy the illogical desire of the opponent who won...
Is it just coming out of your you-know-what ? How is it to satisfy the desire of the opponent ? It's your mind that say it not ours. There's no fucking way that would satisfy our ego or whatever you call it, it's called being good mannered. Simple.
Edit: couldn't resist that last part for some reason... guess it's been too many pages of this...
I have played floorball, basketball, table tennis, beer drinking contest... And every single time there is a gesture at the end that would be equivavent to the 'gg'. Even after 2x10 min on the lowest level after playing the biggest assholes in the world, you at least shake hands.
And Micronesia, above anything else, by saying gg most people mean the same as in other sports. 'good game/ thanks for playing'.
You show respect to your opponent and appreciate his (or the teams) presence in the game, without which it could not happen at all. This is the spirit of any sport, and I don't see why Starcraft should be anything different.
Raiz may try to glorify the meaning of the good game phrase too much, but it should be the comon courtesy and basic manners to type out no matter what.
Edit: Grammar
This brings up an issue I was just discussing with Diagomi in pm. How much does this vary from country to country? Were you in the USA?
On August 19 2008 06:30 evanthebouncy! wrote: I nvr say GG unless I feel it is a GG. If it is a GG I say it, if I don't feel it's a GG i won't say it. That fair? >_>
If you lose, you say gg, no matter who it is against or how you lost, simple as that. Say what you want, but if you're not saying gg you're a sore loser, I don't see anyone denying this. Get some goddamn balls, say gg when you lose, the end.
On August 20 2008 04:56 arb wrote: Usually better to GG at like high level shit though i do it sometimes unless they BM or something.
Example : Storming your overlords because they're far enough ahead to waste storms.
Example : I DT RUSH YU DIDNT CPEXT LOL GG NEWB"
This is when i reply with a "Fuck your mother asshole" and leave.
Grow up.
On August 20 2008 02:02 village_idiot wrote: Whenever I lose I get incredibly angry, so I hardly ever gg.
I usually say something like "faggot" or just plain "fag", maybe "homocunt".
Christ.
Saying gg is a matter of self-control, if you can't even bring up to say gg when you lost no matter the consequences you're lacking self control. I have never played a game of sc where I didn't say gg, it's like an unwritten rule, it contributes to good sportsmanship in the game. Go ahead and break it, but I will never have any respect for you.
On August 19 2008 06:30 evanthebouncy! wrote: I nvr say GG unless I feel it is a GG. If it is a GG I say it, if I don't feel it's a GG i won't say it. That fair? >_>
this.
Yeah I imagine it's more like you guys say gg whenever you win and rarely when you lose.
Besides, why would you shake someone's hand after a tennis match if he owned your ass, right? It wasn't a good game might as well refuse, OH wait you do it anyway because you're probably too much of a pussy to refuse in real life. You guys aren't even doing this out of princible you're just doing it because you know you won't be confronted about it anyway so you just let yourself go without any self control, making yourself look like a total tool to your opponent.
On August 19 2008 06:30 evanthebouncy! wrote: I nvr say GG unless I feel it is a GG. If it is a GG I say it, if I don't feel it's a GG i won't say it. That fair? >_>
this.
Yeah I imagine it's more like you guys say gg whenever you win and rarely when you lose.
Besides, why would you shake someone's hand after a tennis match if he owned your ass, right? It wasn't a good game might as well refuse, OH wait you do it anyway because you're probably too much of a pussy to refuse in real life. You guys aren't even doing this out of princible you're just doing it because you know you won't be confronted about it anyway so you just let yourself go without any self control, making yourself look like a total tool to your opponent.
Grow the fuck up guys.
Its just 2 letters.... i really doesnt matter that much.... (and its not like i don't say GG, i do every game, but you are just taking it sooooo out of proportion)
If I win and people do not say gg and just leave ... I whisper then and say gg ..
To me it is very important to say it, because other players will feel confortable to play you again if they know you are Gm ..
Also I do not like when people is ahead and they say gg to you .. like forcing you to surrender .. thats BM as shit .. In that cases I say .. "ok gg " plus some insult .. Even if I know I can get back in to the game, I just don't like playing with BM's.
On August 19 2008 06:30 evanthebouncy! wrote: I nvr say GG unless I feel it is a GG. If it is a GG I say it, if I don't feel it's a GG i won't say it. That fair? >_>
this.
Yeah I imagine it's more like you guys say gg whenever you win and rarely when you lose.
Besides, why would you shake someone's hand after a tennis match if he owned your ass, right? It wasn't a good game might as well refuse, OH wait you do it anyway because you're probably too much of a pussy to refuse in real life. You guys aren't even doing this out of princible you're just doing it because you know you won't be confronted about it anyway so you just let yourself go without any self control, making yourself look like a total tool to your opponent.
Grow the fuck up guys.
Its just 2 letters.... i really doesnt matter that much.... (and its not like i don't say GG, i do every game, but you are just taking it sooooo out of proportion)
I disagree, I'm not taking it out of proportion I'm merely stating what saying gg exactly means. Do you think the case where the Canadian female fencer went ballistic was taken out of proportion? I don't think so. I think it's fair to lose your respect for someone if he can't bring up the decency to show respect after a match, just like I would do for them, unconditionally.
Saying gg is just 2 letters is the same as saying a handshake after a match is a purely physical gesture. That's bullshit and you know it.
On August 20 2008 04:12 micronesia wrote: Why do you give a shit if someone you know who you played a fair game with for 10-15 minutes on the internet doesn't want to say goodbye? You are holding Starcraft to a much higher standard than anything... and shouldn't. BM IRL and BM on the internet are very different unfortunately.
This is the problem with the topic, right here. You seem to accept that what would be a bad-mannered action in real life ought to be okay given the online circumstances.
I reject this claim. If I play a set of tennis with you, and you refuse to shake my hand afterwards, I will be offended. The fact that you are unwilling to devote such minimal effort on your part to uphold a tradition of respect amongst players indicates to me that you scorn the spirit of the game, that you care only for your own victory or loss.
And I expect similar courtesy online. I see no reason why the fact that our competition is online means that etiquette is rendered irrelevant. After all, the implications of your refusal to shake hands or say GG have nothing to do with Battle.net - they speak to your character.
I won't come after you and sue you, just like I won't beat you up after tennis if you don't shake my hand. You have the right not to say GG. But I won't continue to play with you, because to me you are as disrespectful as someone who fakes line calls (in tennis) or someone who uses Oblivion (in Starcraft).
Micronesia, maybe we didn't grown up with the same logical mind about the hand shaking part, but what you need to know is that internet allows you to play against ppl everywhere in the world. By this logic we can admit that it's like playing on lan right ? I don't know for you but here in europe i've rarely seen any losers refusing shaking their hands to the winners even when they were so pissed about their loses in lans. They accept to shake their hands and then let's talk about "what if..." but they finally concedes their games. I don't know why it'd not be the case for the internet aswell. Sure i can simply ignore these bm childs, but we're in a thread on a website where i've been reading for 7 years (or so don't remember) and so far i felt like i could contribute about this behavior. Now they can have some ppl to disagree with me, i don't care it's their right, but at least i can share my thoughts and hopefully i'm not the only one to think about it.
So to summarize it (spelling ?), i just ignore ppl who doesn't say gg when they leave and if they ask re i'm just like get the $%^& out and then go to somwhere else. Nothing more nothing less. I'm just so tired to explain because i know that you'll all understand when you'll grow up.
arb: if he's ahead enough to start storming your overlords, its perfectly valid for him to do so. if you're still in the game because you think you can come back, then you should be happy he's wasting storms. If you're still in the game while you think you've already lost, what the fuck are you doing not gging out? seriously.
On August 20 2008 06:03 Obsserver wrote: I say gg... even to hackers ..
Being Good maner is culture ...
If I win and people do not say gg and just leave ... I whisper then and say gg ..
To me it is very important to say it, because other players will feel confortable to play you again if they know you are Gm ..
Also I do not like when people is ahead and they say gg to you .. like forcing you to surrender .. thats BM as shit .. In that cases I say .. "ok gg " plus some insult .. Even if I know I can get back in to the game, I just don't like playing with BM's.
Its considered bad manner if you whisper after you win opponent (i mean if he left without gg or saying it before he left quickly). But maybe you get somekind of satisfaction by whispering it?
If you were playing a tennis match against a player who cussed you out every time you won a point and taunted you whenever he was ahead, I don't see why one would be expected to shake his hand afterwards.
Micronesia I am born and raised in the United States
I have played soccer for 14 years, Baseball for 8 years, Basketball for 7 years, Tennis for 2 years, and I was on the swim team for 3 years.
After every single practice, game, competition, what have you we always shook hands and said good game. It's respect and courtesy. Don't be an ignorant asshole, and pay your dues.
I feel so tempted by all these people blowing it out of proportion to start a thread like the "Who's Who Season 5 ICCUP" thread. Except it'll be titled, "Who doesn't say gg after every single game so you can flame him and eat his babies" thread.
Saying gg regardless of what happens defeats the whole purpose imo. I say gg if I feel its a good game, I dont if people are building supply depots in my base just because they can.
But what decides it most is if someone joins my game, I say "hi" and "glhf" and I dont even get a "go" back. Its just annoying couse you dont even know if they're ready, and sometimes they quit 20 sec after its hosted, and thats just annoying.
If they're not polite, I dont see a reason to be polite back.
I've played thousands of games, in over half of the wins I haven't received gg. Question remains: why the hell would I or anyone care? If I feel like I won in a fair game, I don't need anyone telling me it was a good game, specially if it wasn't. I use GG in literal meaning, it stands for special occasion when game actually had some competition in it, not just handicapping one by cheesing. If I'd say it both times: after 3min of getting 4pooled and after 30min back and forth battle, I wouldn't be honest. It's good when it's good.
Between strangers, I feel absolutely no difference between opponent quitting with or without saying something. I actually enjoy it more when someone quits with something more or less classical oneliner "go rape ur mother tarded fag", brings slight amusement at least If they say nothing that's cool. If they say gg and actually start waiting until I respond, that feels like a waste of time to me.
If it's some official game like televised one in Korea or important league I understand it may be common manner which is actually expected of you. Comparing this to some real sports where it's habit to do handshakings etc isn't right since for every sports it's strickly related to the specific sport and its culture. Not shaking hands after tennis is obviously badmannered, same for skipping the chain of shakings after hockey match. But do you see every contestant separately going to congratulate the winner of a swimming or running races? Usually few do, but the chances are they usually are either training partners, from same country or themselves medallionists. So basically they're complimented by people they know the best out of the bunch which brings this game, Starcraft, to my mind: I may slightly care about gg's only when facing people I know, but absolutely never when I know absolutely nothing about the opponent. If I don't know somebody's name, residence, gender or anything, does it matter whether they say nothing (neutral) or something nice (positive)? You might just aswell say it's bad mannered to walk in the street and not say "hello" to everyone you walk by. It takes no effort, it can have no negative effects, still not many do it.
edit: For the record I agree with OP. For (pro)league type of match it's different. When you likely knew at least something of your opponent, he's not a stranger anymore, and since you may have a reason to expect to meet the person again it's cool to ensure you aren't in bad terms for future. Also the other example where you know the opponent is way better, you might just say gg out of respect for either his skills, or to bother using his time bashing you. But the odds are this person is playing you only because you know him already and you weren't strangers to begin with
On August 20 2008 04:12 micronesia wrote: Why do you give a shit if someone you know who you played a fair game with for 10-15 minutes on the internet doesn't want to say goodbye? You are holding Starcraft to a much higher standard than anything... and shouldn't. BM IRL and BM on the internet are very different unfortunately.
This is the problem with the topic, right here. You seem to accept that what would be a bad-mannered action in real life ought to be okay given the online circumstances.
I reject this claim. If I play a set of tennis with you, and you refuse to shake my hand afterwards, I will be offended. The fact that you are unwilling to devote such minimal effort on your part to uphold a tradition of respect amongst players indicates to me that you scorn the spirit of the game, that you care only for your own victory or loss.
And I expect similar courtesy online. I see no reason why the fact that our competition is online means that etiquette is rendered irrelevant. After all, the implications of your refusal to shake hands or say GG have nothing to do with Battle.net - they speak to your character.
I won't come after you and sue you, just like I won't beat you up after tennis if you don't shake my hand. You have the right not to say GG. But I won't continue to play with you, because to me you are as disrespectful as someone who fakes line calls (in tennis) or someone who uses Oblivion (in Starcraft).
I wouldn't refuse to shake someone's hand, if that wasn't already obvious from knowing me for a while (I have never 'refused to shake someone's hand before for that matter).
However, I don't agree with the claim that etiquette IRL is exactly the same as etiquette on the internet. If they are not exactly the same, then we can discuss the degree to which they are different, but that becomes subjective, thus you can't auto-refute what I was saying.
On August 20 2008 06:30 RaiZ wrote: Micronesia, maybe we didn't grown up with the same logical mind about the hand shaking part, but what you need to know is that internet allows you to play against ppl everywhere in the world. By this logic we can admit that it's like playing on lan right ? I don't know for you but here in europe i've rarely seen any losers refusing shaking their hands to the winners even when they were so pissed about their loses in lans. They accept to shake their hands and then let's talk about "what if..." but they finally concedes their games. I don't know why it'd not be the case for the internet aswell. Sure i can simply ignore these bm childs, but we're in a thread on a website where i've been reading for 7 years (or so don't remember) and so far i felt like i could contribute about this behavior. Now they can have some ppl to disagree with me, i don't care it's their right, but at least i can share my thoughts and hopefully i'm not the only one to think about it.
So to summarize it (spelling ?), i just ignore ppl who doesn't say gg when they leave and if they ask re i'm just like get the $%^& out and then go to somwhere else. Nothing more nothing less. I'm just so tired to explain because i know that you'll all understand when you'll grow up.
I appreciate that you are putting things more diplomatically than earlier. I just feel like you are misrepresenting me on several fronts. This is getting too tedious.
On August 20 2008 08:19 CaucasianAsian wrote: Micronesia I am born and raised in the United States
I have played soccer for 14 years, Baseball for 8 years, Basketball for 7 years, Tennis for 2 years, and I was on the swim team for 3 years.
After every single practice, game, competition, what have you we always shook hands and said good game. It's respect and courtesy. Don't be an ignorant asshole, and pay your dues.
CaucasianAsian after every game of basketball/soccer/etc I played as a kid (while involved in leagues/teams), we did the same thing. Unfortunately that is not relevant to the discussion unless you are trying to agree with me. Although if you are trying to agree with me, then calling me an ignorant asshole does not make sense.
RaiZ, I can be happy and treat someone with respect whether they say gg to me or not.
You get unhappy and treat someone with disrespect if they do not say gg.
In that way, I have better manners than you do, regardless of whether you or I say gg when we lose. I can't fathom how you'd defend the attitude of "I'll only be respectful if he is"...
To everyone in this thread: if you have read the varieties of interpretations of this gesture and still insist on clinging to your own definition and applying it to everyone, as if everyone has that same definition in mind, and then you draw conclusions about those people based on the gesture, then you are being ridiculous. The gesture is clearly not well-defined and its nothing short of arrogance on your part to act as though your definition is the right one, especially if you go so far as to be deliberately disrespectful to a person based on it.
And on a sidenote, swimmers and track athletes do not have a post-race gesture or saying which they perform to every other athlete in the race. At most, a few athletes will make a gesture to a few other athletes, but the majority of the field simply goes their separate ways at the end of the race. Observe it yourself in the Olympics. I swam and ran competitively for 12 years without ever feeling disrespected just because of an absence of these gestures and I never had someone tell me they felt disrespected by me because I didn't perform them.
Obviously GG does not mean the same thing to everyone. However the general meaning is there.
Again you can ignore it completely and refuse to say it if you don't consider the game to be a 'good' one, however doing so you must keep in mind that there are people out there who will consider it rude.
If that doesn't bother you, fine. Its up to the individual.
On August 20 2008 09:56 dream-_- wrote: Obviously GG does not mean the same thing to everyone. However the general meaning is there.
Again you can ignore it completely and refuse to say it if you don't consider the game to be a 'good' one, however doing so you must keep in mind that there are people out there who will consider it rude.
If that doesn't bother you, fine. Its up to the individual.
You are the first person to mistakenly assume that the only reason not to 'gg' is because you thought it wasn't a good game!
I wish it would be "thanks for playing" instead of "good game" since so many retards put too much thought into what the words mean. GG is what you type after a game you loss as a sign of respect. NO, there are no different interpretations. There are however elitist asses who believe they're above the rest of the community. Why else would you make up another meaning of the words just for yourself? Why bother come up with a reason not to type GG when it literaly takes under a second to do it and shows that you aren't a sore loser?
God I just hate people who belive they have to be different in every single thing in life just to get attention. I don't care if you say GG or not, just don't pretend that you aren't an asshole when you don't type it.
On August 20 2008 09:42 NonY[rC] wrote: To everyone in this thread: if you have read the varieties of interpretations of this gesture and still insist on clinging to your own definition and applying it to everyone, as if everyone has that same definition in mind, and then you draw conclusions about those people based on the gesture, then you are being ridiculous. The gesture is clearly not well-defined and its nothing short of arrogance on your part to act as though your definition is the right one, especially if you go so far as to be deliberately disrespectful to a person based on it.
Okay, let us say there are different interpretations.
Then why do you say that you would say GG in a broadcasted game no matter what? When people are watching on TV you suddenly get rid of all your oh so holy standards of only typing GG occationaly? Why is that?
On August 20 2008 09:42 NonY[rC] wrote: To everyone in this thread: if you have read the varieties of interpretations of this gesture and still insist on clinging to your own definition and applying it to everyone, as if everyone has that same definition in mind, and then you draw conclusions about those people based on the gesture, then you are being ridiculous. The gesture is clearly not well-defined and its nothing short of arrogance on your part to act as though your definition is the right one, especially if you go so far as to be deliberately disrespectful to a person based on it.
Okay, let us say there are different interpretations.
Then why do you say that you would say GG in a broadcasted game no matter what? When people are watching on TV you suddenly get rid of all your oh so holy standards of only typing GG occationaly? Why is that?
I just remember WEG II (WC3 tournament), TV tournament. Game was SK.Elakeduck (SWE) vs Xiaot (CHN), game ends and elakeduck just quits without typing anything. I guess he was playing training game :D. Then again he was considered WC3 bad boy. Its like watching Firebathero, what will elakeduck do next? Will he do something dramatic etc? (elakeduck did quit wc3 career long time ago)
Dear God just close this thread. The people who had decent points to make have made them. The frequency of good stuff is decreasing leading to an increase in crap.
Very things things that have been said have been compelling enough to change anyone's mind... and that all but defeats the purpose of a discussion.
the best example was already said here. Imagine a public park where people play chess with other unknowns. Imagine how rude would be...you there playing with some random guy and suddenly he get himself up and walk away without saying nothing.
why would u feel bad about that? i think its because that game only happens because of your participation, and walking away like that show zero gratitude for the time you "lost" to play with him.
that's why in some sports like tennis or soccer, basktball the act of shaking hands always occur. its because the game only happen if the player itself is there. (or the team)
in athetics or swimming, there is more than one competitors, so the ausence of some human being would not make any difference, hence, there is not that urge or feeling of shaking hand. that's why on a marathon you dont feel like shaking hands of 100000000 competitors.
and to empathize this point of view, when is a 1v1 or group vs group in athetics or swimming, they do shake hands.
back to starcraft, when people leave without saying GG for me is like..ok whatever, i played with you but now i wanna leave so i leave and if i wanna play again i just create another game and well leave whenever i want and dont care about you. that's why i feel myself disrepected.
imagine if there were only you and another person who plays starcraft. I doubt you would treat him like that because you would want to treat him with respect to be able to keep playing. (i know you can left the game and talk with him in chat but that's not the point because when im referring to "leaving" is like no contact after the game).
To me, it's simply a game ender. If I win, it's what breaks the 15 minutes of tense concentration, and it eases my nerves in a way. If I lose it's what gives the game a definite finish and I can move on to the next. Sometimes, when people just leave, I'm left wondering if they really felt they lost or had to catch a bus. "GG" simply concludes the match and gives you the very specific feeling of a complete match, like a good split makes you open up with a little smile.
My happiness doesn't depend on it, but it's certainly a nice wrap and it makes you feel like you played another human being. It's about the only form of communication you'll produce in a match of StarCraft (aside from the match itself), and for the reasons mentioned I don't think it's a shot in the dark. And all this on sale for just 4 keys out of the 2000 I press in a 10 minute StarCraft match.
I'm sure there are other subjective reasons for appreciating a simple GG, but this pretty much states the basics for me.
Also for the sports like swimming or running, there is less actual interaction in game between the competitors.
In ball games or sc, you are competing directly against your opponent, and need to take into consideration what your opposition is doing.
Theoretically in a race the interaction isn't actually nessecary. Ideally you would want to run/swim the fastest possible time irrespective of what your opponent is doing, i guess you could argue that with ball games like basketball or soccer, or with sc, there is no game without your opponent (unless you play against comp....)
whereas, theoretically, the 'race' can still happen, you will merely be racing against time.
Manners are generally created as not to offend anyone. You take off your hat when you enter a house to show respect to the owner. You generally don't insult anyone so as not to make them upset. You say GG because it has generally been accepted as a norm. It cannot hurt anything, so why not say it?
boohoo they didn't say gg. as long as they don't make the effort to insult and deride you, who cares?
i'm sure we all go through life without people saying bye sometimes.
and if they're bad mannered, take them for what they are: immature. and it's they're offending you and dissing you in person. total cyber, text based communication.
Plus, when you're in a tournament, when it can really rack up your nerves, most ppl will have manners. not hating on the topic, but 12 pages. quite a lot taking the topic in consideration imo.
in conclusion, my general feeling is: nice observation that it's expected, and not doing it can be rude, but in the end, it's not a big deal. lets stop making such a big fuss over it.
I totally agree with your point about gg becoming expected. I never really thought about it before, but it does just seem like when a person loses, hell say gg, and then leave. If that doesn't happen it seems like perhaps they are all pissy they lost, when in fact they could've just thought it was a mediocre game because of how they played.
On August 20 2008 09:42 NonY[rC] wrote: RaiZ, I can be happy and treat someone with respect whether they say gg to me or not.
You get unhappy and treat someone with disrespect if they do not say gg.
In that way, I have better manners than you do, regardless of whether you or I say gg when we lose. I can't fathom how you'd defend the attitude of "I'll only be respectful if he is"...
Well when i was young it really pissed me, but now that i understand there's still immature ppl playing this godly game, well i just ignore them. I don't care, now i'm not like omfg you didn't say it, SAY IT OR I'M GONNA SCREW YOU SO PAINFULLY WHEN I'LL SEE YOU IRL YOU CRYBABY NERD (I know it has already occured back in vannilla sc, god that was so much fun though). It's just that i don't understand why they don't want to type only 2 letters before leaving, i mean come on how hard is that, i'm not making you suck my toe or whatever you name it.
If it makes me direspectfull because of the "attitude" you mention, well so be it. However it won't ever happen because i always say gg and so i don't know where i'll be BM :p
When you start to think about saying "gg" after the game its the point for me where I know i lost. I dont think about the game anymore like micro here, macro there.... its over, i give up and I let my opponent know that by saying gg.
This combined with my earlier reason of saying "gg" because you play a human and not an AI that doesnt care are the reasons I try to always say "gg" When a game is really good but the opponent is much better and owns me I say "gg yo"
On August 20 2008 12:03 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Also for the sports like swimming or running, there is less actual interaction in game between the competitors.
In ball games or sc, you are competing directly against your opponent, and need to take into consideration what your opposition is doing.
Theoretically in a race the interaction isn't actually nessecary. Ideally you would want to run/swim the fastest possible time irrespective of what your opponent is doing, i guess you could argue that with ball games like basketball or soccer, or with sc, there is no game without your opponent (unless you play against comp....)
whereas, theoretically, the 'race' can still happen, you will merely be racing against time.
I just realized NonY said the same thing I just said.
Frits stop your damn crying. Childish.
Do me a favor. Read what you said again and count all the fallacies you just made. After that, look at yourself in mirror and then ask yourself, are you really the bigger man?
Oh the irony!
This topic (if you could even call it that) has been discussed many times on these forums as a sub-topic. At least four times from my recollection. I'm surprised the Mods kept it open for this long, but then again it never really had a thread of it's own.
There is no written rule that says any player has to type "GG" at the end of any game. Simple fact.
So don't lecture me about proper gaming etiquette.
Create as many fallacies as you want.
Just because a Pro does it doesn't mean everyone has to do it. Hell, on many occasions Pros don't even do it.
"GG" only gained steam after the early days.
If the game were close and interesting of course I would say something like good game. No one is entitled to say it.
Everyone has their own values and beliefs. Just because their system doesn't appease to yours makes theirs anymore right or wrong from yours.
There are many other ways of being manner, or showing good sportsmanship.
On August 21 2008 00:26 Showtime! wrote: Frits stop your damn crying. Look at yourself in mirror and then ask yourself, are you really the bigger man? Stop being so childish.
Read what you just said again. Oh the irony!
This topic (if you could even call it that) has been discussed many times here as a sub-topic. At least four times. I'm surprised the Mods let it stay open for this long, but then again it never truly had a thread of it's own.
There is no written rule that says any player has to type "GG" at the end of any game. Simple fact.
So don't lecture me about proper gaming etiquette.
Create as many fallacies as you want.
Just because a Pro does it doesn't mean everyone has to do it. Hell, on many occasions Pros don't even do it.
"GG" only gained steam after the early days.
If the game were close and interesting of course I would say something like good game. No one is entitled to say it.
Everyone has their own values and beliefs. Just because their system doesn't appease to yours makes theirs anymore right or wrong from yours.
There are many other ways of being manner, or showing good sportsmanship.
Many of you are crying about nothing.
On a side note, this thread is solid gold.
Err i think you miss the whole point, the thread is about whether or not it is bm to not say gg, not whether or not people are justified of being offended when others don't say it.
There is no rule saying that we need to respond when people say hello, or good morning either, it IS still considered bad manners if you don't respond.
Quite frankly, I don't give a crap whether or not people say it to me, mostly because i don't give a crap if people are bm, i've come to expect it of humanity in general. But it still doesn't change the fact that it IS bm, the fact that I'm not overly fussed(or even if i were) about it is entirely irrelevant.
On August 20 2008 09:56 dream-_- wrote: Obviously GG does not mean the same thing to everyone. However the general meaning is there.
Again you can ignore it completely and refuse to say it if you don't consider the game to be a 'good' one, however doing so you must keep in mind that there are people out there who will consider it rude.
If that doesn't bother you, fine. Its up to the individual.
You are the first person to mistakenly assume that the only reason not to 'gg' is because you thought it wasn't a good game!
That really wasn't the point. Manners, like money, is a social construction. Money has value because people agree that it has value. Certain practices are considered good manners because people believe that it's good manners. Saying "gg", I think, at least judging by the responses in this thread, has reached that status in starcraft. If you don't say it, then, like it or not, that's probably bad mannered, if for no reason other than that your opponent is going to consider it bad mannered (Of course, there's exceptions when your opponent was bad mannered). Even if you don't agree on its role as etiquette, you surely know that many other people do agree.
GG is for me very close to shaking hands after a chess match (the loser initiates it). But if shaking hands is pretty much perfect thing to do after a match to congratulate your opponent (you don't even have to say anything), the GG is not. For me it's what everyone does to be more like gosus (I suspect they started the tradition?), but if gosus can claim their games to be "good", more than 95% of us can not. But there is the need for a game conclusion so what else can we say? Thanks for the game (TFG) is more natural for me and does not include lying about the game quality in most cases but who would understand that? So much better to just GG and get it over with.
On August 21 2008 02:12 Cheerio wrote: GG is for me very close to shaking hands after a chess match (the loser initiates it). But if shaking hands is pretty much perfect thing to do after a match to congratulate your opponent (you don't even have to say anything), the GG is not. For me it's what everyone does to be more like gosus (I suspect they started the tradition?), but if gosus can claim their games to be "good", more than 95% of us can not. But there is the need for a game conclusion so what else can we say? Thanks for the game (TFG) is more natural for me and does not include lying about the game quality in most cases but who would understand that? So much better to just GG and get it over with.
Thanks for the discussion guys )
I am 99 % sure gosus didn't start to say GG just cause they thought they played such a great game. You honestly think that initially gamers said GG gradually more often the better they became? Also saying good game is not only in BW, it's in poker and a lot of other games and I can't say I've seen people nitpick on the meaning of the words before. I just don't see the reason to try and make a new meaning of the words when today it IS a sign of respect in the proffesional scene. It's nice to have a quick way of leaving the game fast and at the same time showing a sign of respect. Why would anyone want to change that?
Also it's interesting nony hasn't responded to why he would type GG in a broadcasted game, but not in TSL. The only reason I can find is that he knows that his career would literaly be over with the blink of an eye if he didn't type GG vs Boxer in a broadcasted game i.e. he knows deep inside his way of interpret the words is ridicilous.
On August 21 2008 02:35 Krigstar wrote: Also it's interesting nony hasn't responded to why he would type GG in a broadcasted game, but not in TSL. The only reason I can find is that he knows that his career would literaly be over with the blink of an eye if he didn't type GG vs Boxer in a broadcasted game i.e. he knows deep inside his way of interpret the words is ridicilous.
I don't know the 100% exact context of what you're talking about, but in the TSL broadcasted games there were no gg's given because they were all commentated replays. I don't think any TSL live games were actually broadcasted because of lag issues and stuff.
Edit: I did not realize that there were so many bm ragequitters on tl.net.
I think there's a lot of good thoughts in this thread...I for one always say it. Here's a question though - do you guys find it bad mannered to not leave within a couple seconds of saying "gg?" I always thought when you said it it was you conceding victory, and I sometimes like to mess around a little more before leaving. However, I can see how it would get annoying if someone kept playing and drew out the game too much longer. Thoughts?
Seriously guys, there's nothing to discuss about gg: it stands for "good game"--some people take this literally, some type it before they surrender--responding to it in kind is popular and polite. It can also be used to be arrogant when you feel the game is over in your favor. That's about it.
I usually type "fag" before I surrender. followed by /dnd fag
Talking about disrespect: I also think it's disrespectful when people fight till the last building. It's like playing till your king is in checkmate positing when the game is already comletely decided, which is disrespectful (unless it's two comlete newbies play) because it means you are questioning your opponent's ability to achieve the very basic task. So under some circumstances (like the opponent loses all his bases exept on an island and starts teching to cariers when you have 4 bases already) it's acceptable to you to say GG, as your opponent has already shown disrespect and the actual game has ALREADY ended. Not to mention some retards hoping for you to drop out or being late for smthing important.
On August 21 2008 17:39 Centric wrote: I think there's a lot of good thoughts in this thread...I for one always say it. Here's a question though - do you guys find it bad mannered to not leave within a couple seconds of saying "gg?" I always thought when you said it it was you conceding victory, and I sometimes like to mess around a little more before leaving. However, I can see how it would get annoying if someone kept playing and drew out the game too much longer. Thoughts?
i think when a gg happen is when both know who is the winner. in that case for me its ok. when i gg i stay a while too analyzing the game, etc..
but if someone gg´s in the middle of nothing and u´re unsure if u really won is kinda bm
I agree with ppl saying that its bm too type *gg* to somone when you are winning, before they have said it. Ppl that do this deserves to have to run around and kill all buildsings\etc.. its a very bm thing to do =/
On August 21 2008 02:35 Krigstar wrote: Also it's interesting nony hasn't responded to why he would type GG in a broadcasted game, but not in TSL. The only reason I can find is that he knows that his career would literaly be over with the blink of an eye if he didn't type GG vs Boxer in a broadcasted game i.e. he knows deep inside his way of interpret the words is ridicilous.
Is it not because the TSL casts were from replays therefore you can't see what the players typed?
When I lose a game I just go "gg" then Alt+q+q as fast as possible and get on with the next game.
it's amazing how many people don't bother to read the discussions in the thread and then make an aggressively toned post.
anyways seeing as there's nothing new to bring to this topic and people are just repeating (or ignoring) the same arguments, i'll just +1 the view that i agree with.
i don't think it's important to say gg in random pub games. seeing as many analogies have been used in this thread, here's mine: i think of random pub games the same way i think of "hook ups". you're here to hook up, i'm here to hook up, neither of us are looking for an emotional attachment, so let's just do the business and then go our separate ways. two consenting adults, no harm done, both parties get satisfaction.
but if i'm playing someone i know then i'll always do the ggaltqq. i think the argument here is resemblant of an argument that might occur over whether "hook ups" are ethical or whether the only way adults should come together is under the auspices of formal dating. my view on "hook ups" is the same as here, consenting adults should be allowed to choose whichever philosophy they want, it's no skin off my back.
but yeah, ggaltqq is a good idea if your playing someone you know or if it's in a formal setting
EDIT: like if i'm playing anybody from TL i'm definitely gg'ing
what are the disadvantages of saying gg? 1. typing 4 keys is such a pain 2. my pride hurts if I submit peacefully 3. WTF THAT N00B CHEEZED ME HE DOESNT DESERVE MY 2 LETTERZ
advantages? 1. keeps people happy slappy 2. stick with status quo! honestly who wants to be different 3. those 4 keys ups your apm! now i can go from 32 to 33! FUCK YEAH 4. gg doesnt have to mean good game after all, you can get creative
as good manners, i think the loser should always type gg before leaving. not doing so is just rude. i play alotta games where i get pissed i lost esp if i was winning a lot and then just let it slip but i still always say gg before leaving. its just common courtesy.
whats even worse is when the winner says gg first its like lol... way to be a dick.
Ok if some crap happened because my ling got stuck with eachother while a probe sneaked in my base while i tried 2 hatch all in hydra, i wont say GG.
BECAUSE IT WASNT A GG.
If it was a gg, long ass game where i tried my best but still lost, i will say it When some guy tries to 4 pool you while u went 12 hatch, i also say gg. When i lost 12 mutas because my hotkey button froze or some nortan virus crap came up, i dont say gg.
I only type gg if I pull some move that would anger my opponent, because then it's like icing on the cake. Otherwise why would I say it, it's like shaking people's hands, except these are people who play starcraft. Would you shake some nerd's sweaty mouse hand, or his bathroom hand, etc.?
It's never a good game. it's not a gg. and it's not over till i leave, and so why should i type gg unless it's to buy time or at least annoy whoever is unfortunate enough to think they'll get a real game out of me. if i can't waste their time and beat them, i can at least waste their time, and if not, at least maybe anger them. gg.
edit: seriously guys, why type gg when you are about to leave? that's like taking an air freshner into your coffin, kind of. as in, you aren't going to really be there, so who cares whether the gg is in the game or not. besides text disappears in like 3 secs anyways, and the opponent is gone too.
best use of gg: to make them think you surrender. i use it particularly if i think the guy is about to drop hack me to see if i can eliminate him before he finally decides to alt tab. you know, when they are begging for a win or an ally or a draw etc.? i am like, sure hold on one sec i got some lemonade. i'll ally sec. sec. oops. gg?
On August 22 2008 14:45 LazarusSpeaks wrote: I only type gg if I pull some move that would anger my opponent, because then it's like icing on the cake. Otherwise why would I say it, it's like shaking people's hands, except these are people who play starcraft. Would you shake some nerd's sweaty mouse hand, or his bathroom hand, etc.?
It's never a good game. it's not a gg. and it's not over till i leave, and so why should i type gg unless it's to buy time or at least annoy whoever is unfortunate enough to think they'll get a real game out of me. if i can't waste their time and beat them, i can at least waste their time, and if not, at least maybe anger them. gg.
edit: seriously guys, why type gg when you are about to leave? that's like taking an air freshner into your coffin, kind of. as in, you aren't going to really be there, so who cares whether the gg is in the game or not. besides text disappears in like 3 secs anyways, and the opponent is gone too.
best use of gg: to make them think you surrender. i use it particularly if i think the guy is about to drop hack me to see if i can eliminate him before he finally decides to alt tab. you know, when they are begging for a win or an ally or a draw etc.? i am like, sure hold on one sec i got some lemonade. i'll ally sec. sec. oops. gg?
oh and i hack on iccup. d- hacker.
Idk if this was a joke post but it was real funny.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i27.tinypic.com/21jrklx.jpg)
). I don't really care if my opponent doesn't type gg. In that position, I'm more focused on the fact that I won 
