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United States33418 Posts
Credit to Elky for the theory and Naz for the odds. Thanks to 4.aiur and explosive for pointing out stuff I missed.
Nada played Yellow on OGN today and lost. Nada played very strange, so poor that you might think that Nada gave Yellow a free win. Nada and Yellow are on the same team KTF, for those of you who don't know!
Anyway, here was the situation in Group C before the game.
Nal_rA: 2-0 (defeated yellow and chojja)
Nada: 1-0 (defeated Chojja)
Yellow: 0-1 (lost to nal_ra)
Chojja 0-2 (lost to nada and nal_ra)
If Yellow had lost to Nada, Nada would have gotten into the second round without a doubt. However, Yellow would have been eliminated.
KTF's optimal scenario is both their players going to the next round. The situation after the game!
Nal_rA: 2-0 (defeated yellow and chojja)
Nada: 1-1 (defeated Chojja, lost to Yellow)
Yellow: 1-1 (defeated Nada, lost to nal_ra)
Chojja 0-2 (lost to nada and nal_ra)
Two players qualify for the next round. The only way both Nada and Yellow to go on is for Nada to defeat Nal_rA, while Yellow beats Chojja. Then ra, nada, and yellow will be tied on top at 2-1. A series of tie-breakers will be played, where the format is each of the 3 players playing a game a piece against each other. The top two players would go on to the next round.
To manage that, both nada and yellow would have to defeat Nal_ra, making him 0-2. Then Nada and Yellow would be 1st and 2nd by default, regardless of which player is 2-0 and which player is 1-1.
If the two KTF players played last, they could force another tie (and another tiebreaker) in the case that one of them defeated Nal_ra and the other failed to (nal_ra 1-1, KTF players 0-1 and 1-0).
Anyway, it would be hard to achieve that scenario. Nada > Nal_ra, then Yellow > Chojja for atie, then nada > nal_ra and yellow > nal_ra in the tiebreakers. But at worst, at least one of the KTF players would enter the next round if they manage to get a tie.
As for the other cases! Nada plays nal_ra next week. If he wins as KTF wants, but Yellow loses to Chojja the week after, they still get at least nada in the next round.
If Nada loses to nal_ra next week, and Yellow defeats Chojja, then Yellow would be in the next round. It's fine for KTF since one of their players qualifies. It's also possible that the original plan was for Nada to throw the game with Yellow to give them both a chance to qualify. In the case Nada was in danger of being eliminated, Yellow would kindly throw a game for him in return. So if Nada lost to rA, Yellow might lose vs Chojja as well to force the below scenario.
If Nada loses to ra next week, and Yellow loses to Chojja the week after, we get a 3 way tie again. But this time, it would be at the bottom, at 1-2. In the case of a 3 way tie at the bottom, KTF's chances at getting at least one player in are good, even without free wins. Chojja would have to pull 2-0 vs both players, which would be very hard. In the case Chojja goes 0-2, KTF even gets to pick which player they want in the next round (who will take the fall).
So instead of one assured slot in the next round, KTF might be going for the small chance that both of their players could make the next round. And in case they fail at that scenario, the chance that at least one of them will go to the next round is still quite good!
Ok, nitpick and perhaps someone who has too much time calculate exact odds ^_^.
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Hey I already posted this 
(Well, at least the possible scenarios hehe)
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Heh. I would probobly do that if my teammate and me would go on to the next round. 
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United States33418 Posts
no rule that says "you must do your best" :O
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Nada also sucked vs Nal_Ra earlier in that whatever league that was. The result for that was "also" decided before the game?
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It would be funny if Nada really lost in purpose; and then Ra > Nada and Yellow > Chojja. Nada would be 3rd with no tie and would get mad 
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United States33418 Posts
if nada lost on purpose, it was for the good of the entire team. The chance that both he and Yellow will get in is very small. If he lost to yellow, he's accepting that he might not qualify but Yellow will in his place
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if this is true, then nada is an very mannered guy :O.
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Well lemme tell you this - now that Nada lost to Yellow, just the way KTF "made a way for their both players to proceed to the next stage", even though the odds you're talking about (nada beating ra, yellow beating chojja, then both of them beating ra) are quite unlikely, they also risked even ONE of them going to the next stage - and this is just as theoretical:
if Nada loses to nal_ra, as many people believe he would, Chojja would be able to go to the next stage if he beats yellow (not such an impossible task -_-) and then Yellow\Nada\Chojja would be tied with 1\3, and would play a series of tiebreaks, in which Chojja might win and then go to the next stage with Nal_rA.
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lol i didnt read the article all the way thru sorry ~
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United States33418 Posts
On August 22 2003 18:59 Cresfy wrote:
Well lemme tell you this - now that Nada lost to Yellow, just the way KTF "made a way for their both players to proceed to the next stage", even though the odds you're talking about (nada beating ra, yellow beating chojja, then both of them beating ra) are quite unlikely, they also risked even ONE of them going to the next stage - and this is just as theoretical:
if Nada loses to nal_ra, as many people believe he would, Chojja would be able to go to the next stage if he beats yellow (not such an impossible task -_-) and then Yellow\Nada\Chojja would be tied with 1\3, and would play a series of tiebreaks, in which Chojja might win and then go to the next stage with Nal_rA.
covered the tie at the bottom :O. Said KTF has a very good chance at sending at least of their players. That's as unlikely as both nada and yellow going on.
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Dealer
Sweden1368 Posts
"risking"
The odds that Chojja would beat Yellow twice and Nada once in a row is FAR more unlikely than that yellow > chojja, nada > nalra, yellow > nalra, nada > nalra =]
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On August 22 2003 18:48 NpG)Explosive wrote: It would be funny if Nada really lost in purpose; and then Ra > Nada and Yellow > Chojja. Nada would be 3rd with no tie and would get mad In exchange for "throwing" this game, perhaps Yellow agrees to throw the match to Chojja if rA beats Nada. That way Nada cannot be eliminated. The favor is returned and both of them would still be alive for a tiebreaker for the last spot.
This actually all makes sense to me. I'm almost convinced that it's true. I'm turning into a KTF hater.
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United States33418 Posts
haha I should post this on some korean site^_^
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Well, Chojja is in SouL...I don't think he'd get in on all this scheming business. He's probably pissed about losing twice and would like to salvage at least a little bit of self confidence...
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United States33418 Posts
On August 22 2003 19:21 GundamVX wrote:
Well, Chojja is in SouL...I don't think he'd get in on all this scheming business. He's probably pissed about losing twice and would like to salvage at least a little bit of self confidence...
never said he was involved :O
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On August 22 2003 19:10 4.Aiur wrote: Show nested quote +On August 22 2003 18:48 NpG)Explosive wrote: It would be funny if Nada really lost in purpose; and then Ra > Nada and Yellow > Chojja. Nada would be 3rd with no tie and would get mad In exchange for "throwing" this game, perhaps Yellow agrees to throw the match to Chojja if rA beats Nada. That way Nada cannot be eliminated. The favor is returned and both of them would still be alive for a tiebreaker for the last spot. This actually all makes sense to me. I'm almost convinced that it's true. I'm turning into a KTF hater.
Agree witht the whole thing.
On a side note I don't think Nada has much of a chance vs Nal_Ra. Nal_Ra is just kicking so much ass, and it's Paradoxxx.
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u left out the government conspiracy part wax ;p. This sort of shenadigans has happened in formula 1 b4 so y not BW i ask!
:7
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ejai63
United States2101 Posts
did nada really play that poorly??
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Sweden33719 Posts
No~ He wasn't playing good but yellow could just as well have died when he broke down the sunks AND float *edit* facted :0
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Conclusion ---> If 2 players of the same team are in the same group, they should play the game between each other on the 1st week.
(same goes for tie-breakers)
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Beamo - they really should make that some kind of rule or sumptin.
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I just saw that vod and i really believe that Nada lost on purpose, thats just unsportly in my opinion. I wouldnt have done that even if its "good" for the team, it must be really irritating to sit there and play bad and make it look like it was a true win.
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I think too many ppl are jumping on the nalra bandwagon. Nada has been owning players for alot longer, Nalra has JUST ascended into the top ranks of progaming(not the"top", i mean the super gosus ). Stop saying he will automatically kick Nada and Yellows ass. Both of them are very capable of raping the living fuck out of Nalra(especially Nada).
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On August 22 2003 19:42 FrozenArbiter wrote:
No~ He wasn't playing good but yellow could just as well have died when he broke down the sunks AND float *edit* facted :0
he would have died if nada hadn't wasted so many rines/bats. and nada didn't really keep on teching at that time (after he lost his attack force he had like 12 units and not even a starport). he didn't even manage to build vults early enough. he had the time to kill every single drone there was. don't think that is something very typical for nada. i should watch the vod a second time tho.
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i'm pretty convinced that this is all a load of crap and nada just got his ass kicked, but beamo's rule should stil be implemented for safety
did you guys see the vod? the view switches to 1st-person view for nada for a short moment. What, it looked to you guys like he was losing on purpose? ... because i missed the part where nada sucked ass. Losing to yellow = playing like a newb? come on ...
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grotfang nobody said losing to yellow is playing like a newb
when you are trying to argue a point dont assume that the other side is retarded
as wax pointed out it makes a lot of sense for nada to lose
it is still very easy for him to make it
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On August 22 2003 20:26 Grotfang wrote:
i'm pretty convinced that this is all a load of crap and nada just got his ass kicked, but beamo's rule should stil be implemented for safety
did you guys see the vod? the view switches to 1st-person view for nada for a short moment. What, it looked to you guys like he was losing on purpose? ... because i missed the part where nada sucked ass. Losing to yellow = playing like a newb? come on ...
player a attacks player b with m&m. he loses about 6 marines + medics to a couple of lings. shortly after that, player b attacks with some lurks and lings and player a has got around 12 m&ms and no tech to defend. not even a bunker. player a dies.
does that sound like a match between 2 pros?
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STUPID NADA DIDN'T BEAT YELLOW MADE ME 3/4 SO FAR 
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True story: I expected Nada to give yellow the win so I voted for yellow. Uh huh. Yup, I saw it coming a mile a way.
No lie. 
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i dont see how the odds of yellow and nada both making it are so little. its the same odds of nal_ra and chojja advancing if u think about it.
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Well Ace, the bottom line right now is Nal_rA has raped yellow and Nada recently, and he is only going to get stronger.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
It is a conspiracy to make Yellow win an OGN. Even if there is a tie breaker, chances that both go into the finals aren't high at all. Even though there is still a good chance one will make it through, I think everyone sympathizes for Yellow.
How many people DONT want yellow to win an OGN??? Even many zerg haters feel Yellow deserved it more than Xellos.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
who does Yellow practice with on a regular basis anyways?
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United States37500 Posts
Nal_rA shall advance to the second round!!~
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
I just saw the vod, nada didn't lose on purpose.
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I don't think he lost on purpose either.
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The part were Nada leaves his base with marines only, SECONDS before his medics pop out and walks in Yellows lings which he KNEW WERE THERE was soOoooOo fishy imo.
I think he gave away the game there, losing so many rines in early game can be deciding. Allowing Yellow to power more without having to fear a crushing MMF attack.
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I think he gave it away
he has given away games before and today he had all the more reason to do so again.
plus leaving your base with marines while 1 second later you'd have medics with them?
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I think he just didn't like the fact he could eliminate his team partner and didn't manage/want to play his best...
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On August 22 2003 20:31 mindspike wrote: Grotfang nobody said losing to yellow is playing like a newb
when you are trying to argue a point dont assume that the other side is retarded
You're right, next time i'll give you more credit sorry. But i'm pretty sure i heard multiple people say "nada played so chobo omfg" and other remarks like that
On August 22 2003 20:51 Asta wrote:
player a attacks player b with m&m. he loses about 6 marines + medics to a couple of lings. shortly after that, player b attacks with some lurks and lings and player a has got around 12 m&ms and no tech to defend. not even a bunker. player a dies.
does that sound like a match between 2 pros?
Well yeah, i honestly do think nada was trying. You're forgetting what happened between "shortly after that".. nada mada a double attack move bursting through yellow's sunken colonies with his m&m, while at the same time building up vultures to threaten the other drones.. yellow just handled it in an incredible way killing all of those marines with some freshly spawned zerglings and instantly retreating all of his drones from the vulture threat instead of losing mass drones
I don't know how nada thinks during a game, i wish i did, but let's just say.. nada was expecting his m&m to survive longer and didn't feel like blowing his cash on defenses? maybe he was so busy microing and thinking of the best target to attack with his troops that he didn't anticipate losing them all and having to defend his base? (he didn't even have an expansion yet i think, then you're not exactly thinking about getting bunkers to avoid getting killed..)
all of this stuff sounds much more reasonable than nada losing on purpose imho
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On August 22 2003 23:18 [pG]Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I think he gave it away
he has given away games before and today he had all the more reason to do so again.
plus leaving your base with marines while 1 second later you'd have medics with them?
ok so that's basicly the really fishy move.. but maybe he just misjudged (he probably only saw the lings in a flash) how many zerglings it were, and he thought "i'll get myself a few free lings before they run away"
medics don't make that much difference when fighting zlings do they?
when i see those progamers play, it doesn't appear to me as if they're the most patient people in the world
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you know that:
someone can TRY, and play GOOD, while still giving a game away on purpose
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hell, maybe i'm just wrong.. i wish we could hit the "REVEAL THE TRUTH"-button right about now and see who was right
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Haha, yeah. The rule Beamo made kicks ass, it should seriously be put in.
Also, I officially don't like KTF now, bastards. Ruined my Liquibet.
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NaDa and Yellow are close friends from what ive seen(cafe's etc) and heard. I wouldn't be suprised if NaDa lost on purpose or if it was vice versa. Look ive seen NaDa play at least as much as all of you and probably more for some of you. The marines dying to so little lings, and the micro was ATROCIOUS, and so let me put it in clear for you. NaDa doesn't make mistakes like that, this would be the first time ever probably EVER seen him make a mistake like that. Then after he broke through the sunkens I thought it was like he walked right into the lings. It was just way to "fishy" and non NaDa like. Oh well we will see what happens, it may prove to be his folly.
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Hmmm...
I didn't make that rule up
It's used in table tennis competitions for exemple when people from the same club are in the same group.
And I'm sure most individual sports where the players belong to a club or a team have the same rule. Even at low compitition level
Now all Nal_Ra has to do is kick Nada's ass next week. He'll ne sure to be qualified and we'll be able to see if yellow throws the game away vs Chojja or not
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whatever the plan was between the nada and yellow, they better pray it works out, if not, nada will be crying when hes outthe first round again :O
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beamo: I know tournaments that are round robin or swiss pairing formats usually have a rule that each player must play their hardest to win every match, without regard to other players rankings or position.
Otherwise you would have the situation of someone tempted to throw a match to a friend, if they are already guaranteed a particular place, or to throw a match to a weak player, if my doing so it might knock out a strong player from a later stage.
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On August 23 2003 00:45 Gryffindor_us wrote:
NaDa and Yellow are close friends from what ive seen(cafe's etc) and heard. I wouldn't be suprised if NaDa lost on purpose or if it was vice versa. Look ive seen NaDa play at least as much as all of you and probably more for some of you. The marines dying to so little lings, and the micro was ATROCIOUS, and so let me put it in clear for you. NaDa doesn't make mistakes like that, this would be the first time ever probably EVER seen him make a mistake like that. Then after he broke through the sunkens I thought it was like he walked right into the lings. It was just way to "fishy" and non NaDa like. Oh well we will see what happens, it may prove to be his folly.
Friends or no friends it's still bullshit. It fucks over the fans who wanted to see a good game. And it fucks over the other players who do the best they can and then have to play still more games because otherones were being rigged.
I essentially blame two people for this:
- Nada, he is being so GM it is killing him. I hope Nal_Ra beats him and then Nada is eliminated from the first round again. Whether or not you want to think BoxeR is a bastard for it or not he does whatever it takes to win when he feels like doing so. Another reason why he is the Terran Emperor and Nada is not.
- I think KTF might have played a part in this. It is possible that they wanted Nada and YellOw to advance so their players would appear more. If this is true than 'fuck KTF, fuck them up their stupid asses.'
The other reason I am pissed is because I voted for Nada in Liquibet. Nada should have raped YellOw so bad...
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your liquibet points are irrelevant.
stuff like this happens in tournaments all the time.
it's no big deal.
they still put on a decent game for the fans.
it's nada's risk to take.
if he gets eliminated, he'll have nobody to blame but himself.
there is no I in team.
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United States37500 Posts
Agreed. Heh, Casper's on a roll today.
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Hey Nazgul, have you ever threw a game in the leagues yet?
Just wonderin how it feels to be ... a thrower gamer.. i dont know the right word..
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I agree with Reaper's last post. It's gay if players don't try their hardest every game no matter what.
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Sorry Wax, the part about Chojja being involved was from another post.
There are a lot of reasons why I feel that NaDa threw the game.
1) KTF management is strict
I've heard numerous times that the management of KTF is strict. It very well could've been decided that NaDa was to lose to Yellow (by the manager), and these players would have no way of disagreeing.
2) NaDa and Yellow are close & Yellow is NaDa's senior
I've heard this numerous times before, and also Yellow is NaDa's 'senior' on the team. It would be considered BM for NaDa to crush Yellow knowing that it would eliminate him from the tournament. You just don't do that to a close senior (in Korea, that is).
3) They are practice partners
They probably practiced how Yellow would beat NaDa without making it look like NaDa threw away the game completely. They had a week to prepare for this game, very well could've scripted a scenario at the office.
4) Moving out w/ marines w/o medics
Even the commentators said that moving out w/o medics was a bad idea. They said they couldn't understand why he did that, and I couldn't understand either. After NaDa made that 'mistake' he micro'd his marines so that they didn't all die (although they could've) which means he's capable of better play and could've done better if he wanted to. Cancelling his second barracks was also fishy as it was almost finished (although he might've wanted it to be secret and had his cover blown by the overlord). The floating factory was also a questionable tactic. The late starport and no tank support also left many people wondering, 'Why?'.
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On August 23 2003 03:22 AlaNtIs wrote:
Hey Nazgul, have you ever threw a game in the leagues yet?
Just wonderin how it feels to be ... a thrower gamer.. i dont know the right word..
Game thrower?
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hehe i was thinking the same thing.Yea this game was totally un nada like he prolly threw the game but it doesnt matter b/c he will qualify b/c if anything they can keep throwing games to keep each other alive;)
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4/4 in Liquid Bet for me. LOLOLOLOLOL.
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On August 22 2003 21:23 Ion)Positive wrote: True story: I expected Nada to give yellow the win so I voted for yellow. Uh huh. Yup, I saw it coming a mile a way. No lie.
Same. I even posted "I hope they made an agreement to let Yellow win" before the match hehe.
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On August 23 2003 04:16 GundamVX wrote:
Sorry Wax, the part about Chojja being involved was from another post.
There are a lot of reasons why I feel that NaDa threw the game.
1) KTF management is strict
I've heard numerous times that the management of KTF is strict. It very well could've been decided that NaDa was to lose to Yellow (by the manager), and these players would have no way of disagreeing.
2) NaDa and Yellow are close & Yellow is NaDa's senior
I've heard this numerous times before, and also Yellow is NaDa's 'senior' on the team. It would be considered BM for NaDa to crush Yellow knowing that it would eliminate him from the tournament. You just don't do that to a close senior (in Korea, that is).
3) They are practice partners
They probably practiced how Yellow would beat NaDa without making it look like NaDa threw away the game completely. They had a week to prepare for this game, very well could've scripted a scenario at the office.
4) Moving out w/ marines w/o medics
Even the commentators said that moving out w/o medics was a bad idea. They said they couldn't understand why he did that, and I couldn't understand either. After NaDa made that 'mistake' he micro'd his marines so that they didn't all die (although they could've) which means he's capable of better play and could've done better if he wanted to. Cancelling his second barracks was also fishy as it was almost finished (although he might've wanted it to be secret and had his cover blown by the overlord). The floating factory was also a questionable tactic. The late starport and no tank support also left many people wondering, 'Why?'.
1. Read Mynock's interview with Elky and learn why they are assholes. Nada should leave KTF and join another Team (maybe Hanbit or AMD), but I think he should get the fuck out of KTF. To me they are turning into another IS.
2. Nada did it before in the Panasonic OGN.
3. They did a damn bad job then considering how obvious it was that it was rigged.
4. See above.
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Best zerg in the world beats a terran... Yeah, it was fixed
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If Xellos and Boxer can own Yellow, it follows that Nada should as well!@
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 23 2003 09:15 i_R_nEWbiE wrote:
If Xellos and Boxer can own Yellow, it follows that Nada should as well!@
Own? Boxer vs Yellow coca cola starleague 2001.
Score: 3-2 in boxers favour.
Xellos vs Yellow Olympus starleague 2003.
Score 3-2 in xellos favour.
THAT is not own -_-
And reaper stop sounding like you know EVERYTHING? Your posts... so arrogant ;(
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When they viewed a part of the replay after the game, they showed Nada cancelling his hidden rax before Yellows lord was even in his sight, right? Or did i just misjudge the SCV sight range :S
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No way they could collabarate that live.
Nada musta have seen the lord.
Could some elaborate a bit more on nada leaving just before medics?
I see a lot player do this. They head in there nat just before medics.
Then the medics catchup then they move out further.
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gfd ... if nada didnt do that shit i would be 8-0 in my picks since making a new account.
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Canada5062 Posts
Waxangel did a very good job of going through the various scenarios - but I'm puzzled by his conclusions.
Wax basically concludes that even if Nada lost on purpose, KTF's chances of advancing at least ONE player is about as unlikely as getting BOTH of them in. I can't disagree more. I don't have time to go into the probabilities, but trust me KTF lost very little by having Nada lose to Yellow. What they essentially did by throwing the Nada v Yellow game was to get re-matches for Nada and Yellow v players they are fairly certain they can beat.
And Wax, you need to consider some things before you start making callous comments like "well, there are no rules that you have to try." If SC is going to be taken seriously it can't allow games to be thrown. If you can't see the reasons why, then I have no idea why you're even a fan.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
mensrea, I don't understand why you are always so harsch towards Waxangel.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
Of course Wax doesnt mean that it's ok to not try if he says something like 'well there are no rules that you have to try' , he is just moving himself into what the players could've thought.
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I think Wax has good reasons to say everything he said in his post. I'm sure he has considered certain things before reaching his conclusion and they're his opinions You're so subtly vindictive it's starting to sound pathetic.
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oops i was talking to Mensrea btw
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Canada5062 Posts
On August 23 2003 20:00 IntoTheDrain wrote:
I think Wax has good reasons to say everything he said in his post. I'm sure he has considered certain things before reaching his conclusion and they're his opinions You're so subtly vindictive it's starting to sound pathetic.
1) This particular exchange between me and Wax started because of a misunderstanding - which has now been cleared up thx to Bill Gates-powered technology.
2) Stay out of other people's conversations. You don't know the full story. As it is now, you're the one who sounds pathetic.
3) You wanna see vindictive, try me again and see what happens.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
If you post something on a forum it's ment to be discussed by many ppl on the forum , that's all I wanna add to that.
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United States37500 Posts
Such hostilities mensrea... this is so not like you.
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Canada5062 Posts
ret,
I understand your concern. And, of course, you are right: things posted on the forum are meant to be discussed by all. I stand corrected.
But, IntoTheDrain has been a heckler for a long time (since my BW.com days). What he posts may sound innocent enough to everyone else, but is quite the opposite in fact. I my reasons to ask him to stay out of my "conversation" with Wax. Anyway, there's a history behind this and I can only ask that you trust my judgment on this and give me the benefit of the doubt.
And, I prefer not to discuss in public your questions about me and Wax. It's no big deal and we laugh about it every once in a while - usually after we've called each other a bunch of dirty names. Suffice it to say tho that the "harshness" does not flow just one way. If you're REALLY, REALLY curious and just HAVE TO KNOW - then get my msn from someone and I'll oblige.
Take care.
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Sweden33719 Posts
MESSAGE ME FOR REA's MSN! HIGHEST BIDDER!
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United States33418 Posts
lunar cycles have determined that mensrea and I will get along for the while being
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Sweden33719 Posts
Lies :O Did he pay you many monies? Or was it the other way around? :O Or perhaps he payed in natura?
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Canada5062 Posts
Wax and I have both decided to throw our fight. :O
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Sweden33719 Posts
WTF, I WANT FIGHT :O!
BLOOD GUTS AND LONG FLAME POSTS!!!!!!!11
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EPT
