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Criteria:
- players need to be regarded among the best players in both BW and Sc2 during at least a certain period of time (by performing well in or winning tournaments, etc.)
What would you say? Put it this way: if Flash scores 100 in BW, as the greatest BW player, how much does he score in Sc2 compared to the greatest Sc2 player? And which players score the most cumulatively? In other words, who is the most universal players in BW/Sc2 combined?
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Soulkey is probably about 95 in BW, and was 95 in SC2. He comes to mind, same with rain, a champion in both games.
To be honest, most top sc2 pro players were very good bw players already on pro teams when sc2 came out. Some of them were very young, so didn't reach their full potential in BW yet. Guys like Stats, sOo, Innovation, Dear, sOs etc. would've undoubteldy been amazing bw players if they kept on playing the game more. So the list is really long of great players in both games, just hard to measure their peak.
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Jaedong: Arguably the greatest BW zerg player ever, would have won countless titles if it weren't for Flash. He was over his peak when he made the switch and still almost won WCS. Just imagine if he hadn't had all those second places and won those tournaments.
Rain was pretty good in both games.
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Honorable mention: Idra :-)
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Did everyone forget Stats? His name should come up first before Rain. He was KT's 2nd best player arguably during the last years of the BW KeSPA era which were the most competitive years of BW. Stats was better than Rain during that period. Rain was only a god in BW when the amateur leagues started. Also, Stats accomplished more than Rain did in SC2.
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NonY - favorite US protoss since TSL1
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gotta be between Soulkey and Rain, for sure.
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Bisutopia19044 Posts
On October 02 2020 04:05 M3t4PhYzX wrote: gotta be between Soulkey and Rain, for sure. This,
And for Terran Ty(baby) ranks top across both games.
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Isnt that every SC:BW programer that seriously went into SC2?
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On October 02 2020 01:57 StuDToSs wrote: Did everyone forget Stats? His name should come up first before Rain. He was KT's 2nd best player arguably during the last years of the BW KeSPA era which were the most competitive years of BW. Stats was better than Rain during that period. Rain was only a god in BW when the amateur leagues started. Also, Stats accomplished more than Rain did in SC2. I agree, don't see how it can be anyone but Stats.
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Bogus who is Innavotion now was also good at the end of KeSPA era which is similar story to TY BaBy, although BaBy was more oldschool and sucessfull in BW. I remember soO started reaching top 8 in BW tournaments and reached ro4 in OSL which is huge and now he's considered one of the best zergs of SC2, if not all 2nd places he could become GOAT. FanTaSy also had interesting and sucessfull run barely not qualifying into top 16 Blizzcon seed on SC2 although it's nowhere compared his late KeSPA number one terran BW peak.
Bogus BW 70%, SC2 100%. BaBy BW 75%, SC2 95%. sOO 80%, SC2 95%. Fantasy BW 95%, SC2 75%.
I don't wanna give Bogus and BaBy lower than 70% sucess for BW because they were up and coming terrans and who knows what heights they could achieve if SC2 didn't come out. Maybe they even could topple FlaSh himself.
Bonus: my IMO about TBLS:
FlaSh BW 1000%, SC2 85%. Jaedong BW100%, SC2 90%. Stork BW 95%, SC2 65%. Bisu BW 95%, SC2 0%.
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Serral. Actually, its Jaedong easily and its not close. You can make it harder depending on how you weight teamleagues but that quickly becomes a mess because not all players competed in teamleagues in SC2, the Kespa issue, hybrid proleague and all that. But if we just look at tournament results its clearly Jaedong.
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TheWinD
Pretty sure MVP beat FlaSh in BW and then was great at SC2 so there's that...
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On October 02 2020 01:06 M2 wrote: Honorable mention: Idra :-) Unfortunately for us all, Idra's skill of idiocy is transferable between games.
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I would say Rain, Jaedong, Soulkey, INnoVation, soO, Stats, Flash, Hydra, ForGG, TY, Fantasy were all pretty good at both games.
I think if Jaedong was younger, he could have been one of the best SC2 players. He was great in 2013 but that was already after he was past his BW peak years (2008-2010) and was no longer as clutch. I think he lost almost every final he was in ever since early 2010 (9/11 and the two that he won were in the smaller tournaments).
As for Flash, I think a lot of people say he would have been stronger with protoss and I am not sure if that is true because I don't have great knowledge about SC2 meta. In general though, I don't think SC2 really suits his skillset as much as BW. A lot of his strengths in BW aren't as useful in SC2 and his very few weaknesses are punished more in SC2. I would also say it seemed to me he was not very lucky in SC2 tournaments either. His SC2 career kind of resembles Stats/Sea's BW career.
July also made a GSL final (his longevity in esports is honestly incredible) and Last made an SC2 OSL semifinal + ro8 in MLG where he lost to Life 2-3 so he he had a lot of potential in SC2.
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China6285 Posts
When it comes to the best Soulkey, Jaedong, Innovation and Rain for sure.
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On October 02 2020 07:09 Jealous wrote: TheWinD
Pretty sure MVP beat FlaSh in BW and then was great at SC2 so there's that...
Is there any single win that's ever been more over-referenced than MVP winning a single game in a best of five against Flash? I thought it was a joke meme because people knew how silly it was to reference a single game out of a BO5 as an accomplishment. Over time, maybe some people forgot the joke?
The funniest part is MVP barely won that game. Countless BW players took at least one game off of Flash, but MVP was such a mediocre BW player that him even get that one game was considered a memorable accomplishment. MVP dragged out a TvT to coinflip Battlecruiser territory. Flash stomped him in the next three games in less total time than the first game took.
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I have serious issues with this whole "Rain was a god in bw" narrative.
He was an excelent player in the amateur era, backed by a near unbeatable PvP and a very very solid PvZ. He won 1 KSL and 1 ASL (this one mostly on the back of his PvP in a full Protoss everywhere season). He placed well in several other ASLs but never reached that fear factor from that one season.
He did very well during that time span where maps were very P favoured (giving him the opportunity to play his best MU by far very often), but dont let that power rank/elo rank on the sidebar of TL fool you, that has not been updated in a lifetime.
I see this as a caster overhype kind of situation I guess.
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On October 02 2020 19:36 KobraKay wrote: I have serious issues with this whole "Rain was a god in bw" narrative.
He was an excelent player in the amateur era, backed by a near unbeatable PvP and a very very solid PvZ. He won 1 KSL and 1 ASL (this one mostly on the back of his PvP in a full Protoss everywhere season). He placed well in several other ASLs but never reached that fear factor from that one season.
He did very well during that time span where maps were very P favoured (giving him the opportunity to play his best MU by far very often), but dont let that power rank/elo rank on the sidebar of TL fool you, that has not been updated in a lifetime.
I see this as a caster overhype kind of situation I guess.
He has a lot of hype in part because I think he was considered the best player in practice SK Telecom practice sessions. He said in an interview that he gained a lot of apm upon returning from SC2 so he might've even improved, despite already having been considered a top talent. Also, I suggest you watch his fpvod. Might be one of the most impressive out there. As for the map pool, I do agree his ASL win had a clearly P-favoured map pool but having look at his other high placements, I don't think the other map pools were very protoss favoured (they all seemed pretty balanced to me).
TBF, I do think Tastosis were a bit biased and hyped him a lot in the earlier tournaments. It was a bit misplaced at the time because Rain actually was not doing super well in his first few ASLs. In hindsight though, he has won an ASL and a KSL so he did eventually live up to (and probably exceeded) the expectations placed upon him. Also, his PvP is not actually that special in sponbang matches so I would partially attribute some of his PvP tournament success to being a good tournament performer.
Overall, I think it is fair to say he is one of the most talented programers across both games.
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Rain also won Rookie of the Year in KeSPA era so he was no slouch.
@darktreb: I think you're the one who forgot.
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On October 02 2020 20:38 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2020 19:36 KobraKay wrote: I have serious issues with this whole "Rain was a god in bw" narrative.
He was an excelent player in the amateur era, backed by a near unbeatable PvP and a very very solid PvZ. He won 1 KSL and 1 ASL (this one mostly on the back of his PvP in a full Protoss everywhere season). He placed well in several other ASLs but never reached that fear factor from that one season.
He did very well during that time span where maps were very P favoured (giving him the opportunity to play his best MU by far very often), but dont let that power rank/elo rank on the sidebar of TL fool you, that has not been updated in a lifetime.
I see this as a caster overhype kind of situation I guess. He has a lot of hype in part because I think he was considered the best player in practice SK Telecom practice sessions. He said in an interview that he gained a lot of apm upon returning from SC2 so he might've even improved, despite already having been considered a top talent. Also, I suggest you watch his fpvod. Might be one of the most impressive out there. As for the map pool, I do agree his ASL win had a clearly P-favoured map pool but having look at his other high placements, I don't think the other map pools were very protoss favoured (they all seemed pretty balanced to me). TBF, I do think Tastosis were a bit biased and hyped him a lot in the earlier tournaments. It was a bit misplaced at the time because Rain actually was not doing super well in his first few ASLs. In hindsight though, he has won an ASL and a KSL so he did eventually live up to (and probably exceeded) the expectations placed upon him. Also, his PvP is not actually that special in sponbang matches so I would partially attribute some of his PvP tournament success to being a good tournament performer. Overall, I think it is fair to say he is one of the most talented programers across both games.
oh dont get me wrong, I was not bashing Rain. He was an amazing player in both games and def a contender in the context of this thread!
My only issue is with the "god" calling in regards to BW. Amazing and elite? sure. God? nope, that is Flash alone up there
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On October 02 2020 04:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2020 01:57 StuDToSs wrote: Did everyone forget Stats? His name should come up first before Rain. He was KT's 2nd best player arguably during the last years of the BW KeSPA era which were the most competitive years of BW. Stats was better than Rain during that period. Rain was only a god in BW when the amateur leagues started. Also, Stats accomplished more than Rain did in SC2. I agree, don't see how it can be anyone but Stats. I think when people place Rain above Stats, it's mostly based on (i) Rain was still an up-and-comer when KeSPA moved to hybrid PL (kinda subjective how you weigh potential talent, and how much weight his post-KeSPA results carry in predicting his hypothetical BW potential), and (ii) Rain was more dominant than Stats when both were playing SC2 (also somewhat subjective)
It seems like a pretty subjective comparison. I think that the camp that pushes Rain/SK/Bogus is giving more credit to peak/potential than longevity/results. For instance, Stats was a very strong SC2 player but didn't start winning championships until 2016, when Rain/SK had already left the scene (and both when they were still arguably championship-caliber players). And all three of Rain/SK/Bogus were still on the rise when BW ended.
Stats and JD have to be considered in a very different light. I would argue JD + SC2 seemed like it had the least potential across all five of Stats/Rain/SK/Bogus/JD + BW/SC2, since even during his many second place finishes, a lot of the actual gameplay felt less-than-convincing, supported by his subsequent lack of results and retirement, so if you're rating the players on "largest smaller X-factor across the two games" I think you have to drop JD, and maybe Stats. On the other hand, if you're rating on "largest smaller number of results across the two games" then JD has to take that by a long shot. If you're rating on "highest lower skill ceiling shown across the two games" then Stats has to take the cake, since his actual demonstrated BW play is more convincing than JD's SC2 play imo.
I don't think this is authoritative, and many might disagree with me, but I think it's clear that different criteria will produce different rankings. My subjective bias skews towards Rain though <3
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United States9668 Posts
Off the top of my head, Boxer did ok in the beginning, July did ok.
Jaedong is the one I think of most when I think of success in both games.
Soulkey doesn't quite have the brass from BW but he was massively successful in SC2.
Stats and TY were both really good. Bogus was alright but insane in SC2.
FlaSh had that one blip where he was insane, and always a reasonable proleague player in sc2, but never a consistent individual performer.
Rain is fine, post-kespa ratings are always a bit skewed imo with how good players are so I don't consider his BW achievements as impressive as they are on paper.
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How about Hydra?
BW: Won MSL, top Starleague contender SC2: WCS Champion, decent Proleague regular
At least Top 5.
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Jaedong, Soulkey and Rain comes into mind when it comes to the ones who had the most top finishes on both games.
There was also a time that Flash did well on sc2(i think it was the same time Life started going up)
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ZergBong (NesTea) 69% BW / 99% SC2
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On October 03 2020 20:16 goody153 wrote: Jaedong, Soulkey and Rain comes into mind when it comes to the ones who had the most top finishes on both games.
There was also a time that Flash did well on sc2(i think it was the same time Life started going up) Flash won an IEM vs a prime Zest.
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I feel Jaedong is very close to Flash in BW, but considerably better in Sc2. Jaedong here.
I also feel that zergs and protoss are generally more successful than terrans.
But all in all, I feel that Rain may be the one. I guess most would say that he was better in Sc2 than BW, but I feel he is an incredible talent and at the pinnacle of both games (Soulkey comes close). Willing to work to prove it week-in, week-out, can be discussed.
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