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On June 07 2020 08:06 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 03:46 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:On June 07 2020 01:36 mrc wrote:how about auto-ban for people with1 mmr?  As I said earlier noobs are really not the problem. If the system knows someone is a noob there is still a chance to balance the teams and have a game. I would rather ban unranked players (less than 4 balanced matches). Most of the unbalanced matches I've played are not balanced because of some new player who is either much better or much worse than expected. And you can't really asses MMR out of stats alone. So this problem will happen over and over. I'm thinking of a command that will allow any ranked player to ban all unranked players. I also thought about banning people with little stats. Like people with 10 matches. Not only they are unranked so there is very little knowledge of their skill in BGH and APM but also there is very little information in the stats. With those players it is very difficult to guess their MMR. For me this would be a problem, because I am someone who has basically not played on Europe at all on my current accounts (have been making new accounts and deleting old ones due to BSL and other events/tournaments), so I have like 10 games on my account. Also, really struggling to get into a BGH bot game, partially because of time zone difference as well as high demand (except when the bot is not working). So, it feels like if players can ban based on these factors, it's like a window of people joining this "ladder"/community is "closing" if that makes sense.
Yeah, I don't want to close this system to people but here is the point. With new/unranked players this system doesn't really work. It's kinda pointless. When I join game with 100% ranked players I pretty much know what to expect. It's not perfect I think that MMR points are not super accurate and matching can be improved and I work on this but with unranked players it's basically like any unbalanced game.
To get at least 10 custom games you need like 3 h of playing. To get 4 ranked games it shouldn't take more than couple hours as well. The idea in bgh mmr is that you allow others to see how good you are and in exchange you see how good they are so the game can be balanced. If you don't provide that info I think it is fair for players who are ranked to ban you.
On June 09 2020 01:24 Crazy Citizen wrote:Hello. Firstly, thank you for making this bot Is there a way to report team-killers? I had a match where a player killed his 2 allies and then, either, left the game or allied the enemy. The team killer and the 3 enemies all got +MMR https://imgur.com/a/TbBF8a1I have the replay file too, if needs-be. "Finlandno1Zerg" was the offending player. Essentially, a player can wait a few minutes, avoid the enemy and 4v2, then the 4 players all gain MMR. Also if anyone can explain the psychology of trolls like this, I would be very interested ^^
I saw the replay, although it might have been corrupted. I guess that he attacked you cause he didn't like the fact that you cannoned up and didn't help when a teammate got killed only to make carriers later in the game. To be honest I also don't like when teammates do that.
For now there is no mechanism for banning but I'll check if I can detect teamkillers from replays. If that's possible, I will add command to ban recent teamkillers.
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On June 09 2020 17:40 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 08:06 Jealous wrote:On June 07 2020 03:46 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:On June 07 2020 01:36 mrc wrote:how about auto-ban for people with1 mmr? As I said earlier noobs are really not the problem. If the system knows someone is a noob there is still a chance to balance the teams and have a game. I would rather ban unranked players (less than 4 balanced matches). Most of the unbalanced matches I've played are not balanced because of some new player who is either much better or much worse than expected. And you can't really asses MMR out of stats alone. So this problem will happen over and over. I'm thinking of a command that will allow any ranked player to ban all unranked players. I also thought about banning people with little stats. Like people with 10 matches. Not only they are unranked so there is very little knowledge of their skill in BGH and APM but also there is very little information in the stats. With those players it is very difficult to guess their MMR. For me this would be a problem, because I am someone who has basically not played on Europe at all on my current accounts (have been making new accounts and deleting old ones due to BSL and other events/tournaments), so I have like 10 games on my account. Also, really struggling to get into a BGH bot game, partially because of time zone difference as well as high demand (except when the bot is not working). So, it feels like if players can ban based on these factors, it's like a window of people joining this "ladder"/community is "closing" if that makes sense. Yeah, I don't want to close this system to people but here is the point. With new/unranked players this system doesn't really work. It's kinda pointless. When I join game with 100% ranked players I pretty much know what to expect. It's not perfect I think that MMR points are not super accurate and matching can be improved and I work on this but with unranked players it's basically like any unbalanced game. To get at least 10 custom games you need like 3 h of playing. To get 4 ranked games it shouldn't take more than couple hours as well. The idea in bgh mmr is that you allow others to see how good you are and in exchange you see how good they are so the game can be balanced. If you don't provide that info I think it is fair for players who are ranked to ban you.
Relying on external metrics like custom games and ladder MMR seems like a flawed approach that leaves an opening for abuse. If I knew that in order to participate in BGH 3v3s, now as a casual player who no longer ladders or competes, that I need a certain # of regular ladder games or custom games, I would just join/queue and leave after 2 minutes and likely get placed below my skill simply because there was an artificial hurdle for me to jump just to get into the game.
I much prefer the idea you had before, which is one game for ranked players only, and one game for ranked AND unranked players. I think that is a better way to create the type of environment you are looking for, without closing the window of accessibility for new players like myself (still haven't been able to catch a game  ).
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Norway26631 Posts
I don't think the system really needs revisions. The stats/apm are flawed indicators, but they're better than nothing, and if someone hasn't played enough games to be placed fairly, then going based on those is fine. We also shouldn't close off the ladder to new players, as we want it to grow.
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On June 09 2020 23:21 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2020 17:40 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:On June 07 2020 08:06 Jealous wrote:On June 07 2020 03:46 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:On June 07 2020 01:36 mrc wrote:how about auto-ban for people with1 mmr? As I said earlier noobs are really not the problem. If the system knows someone is a noob there is still a chance to balance the teams and have a game. I would rather ban unranked players (less than 4 balanced matches). Most of the unbalanced matches I've played are not balanced because of some new player who is either much better or much worse than expected. And you can't really asses MMR out of stats alone. So this problem will happen over and over. I'm thinking of a command that will allow any ranked player to ban all unranked players. I also thought about banning people with little stats. Like people with 10 matches. Not only they are unranked so there is very little knowledge of their skill in BGH and APM but also there is very little information in the stats. With those players it is very difficult to guess their MMR. For me this would be a problem, because I am someone who has basically not played on Europe at all on my current accounts (have been making new accounts and deleting old ones due to BSL and other events/tournaments), so I have like 10 games on my account. Also, really struggling to get into a BGH bot game, partially because of time zone difference as well as high demand (except when the bot is not working). So, it feels like if players can ban based on these factors, it's like a window of people joining this "ladder"/community is "closing" if that makes sense. Yeah, I don't want to close this system to people but here is the point. With new/unranked players this system doesn't really work. It's kinda pointless. When I join game with 100% ranked players I pretty much know what to expect. It's not perfect I think that MMR points are not super accurate and matching can be improved and I work on this but with unranked players it's basically like any unbalanced game. To get at least 10 custom games you need like 3 h of playing. To get 4 ranked games it shouldn't take more than couple hours as well. The idea in bgh mmr is that you allow others to see how good you are and in exchange you see how good they are so the game can be balanced. If you don't provide that info I think it is fair for players who are ranked to ban you. Relying on external metrics like custom games and ladder MMR seems like a flawed approach that leaves an opening for abuse. If I knew that in order to participate in BGH 3v3s, now as a casual player who no longer ladders or competes, that I need a certain # of regular ladder games or custom games, I would just join/queue and leave after 2 minutes and likely get placed below my skill simply because there was an artificial hurdle for me to jump just to get into the game. I much prefer the idea you had before, which is one game for ranked players only, and one game for ranked AND unranked players. I think that is a better way to create the type of environment you are looking for, without closing the window of accessibility for new players like myself (still haven't been able to catch a game ).
When I refer to MMR I mean bgh mmr. I don't know / have access to ladder mmr so it's not used. The reason I have to rely on external metrics such as APM or custom games is because many players have played only few balanced games so bghmmr system knows nothing about them.
Once a player has more games in the system external metrics become less and less important.
On June 10 2020 07:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the system really needs revisions. The stats/apm are flawed indicators, but they're better than nothing, and if someone hasn't played enough games to be placed fairly, then going based on those is fine. We also shouldn't close off the ladder to new players, as we want it to grow.
With more games I have way more data to correct parameters of the system. I now have about 4k ranked games in DB vs few hundreds when I've setup system in the first place. So I will likely tune system to be more accurate. I know people don't like this as it changes the points, but I doubt those revisions will completely change the Leaderboard.
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Norway26631 Posts
the leaderboard looks fine the way it is...
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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2204 Posts
Are replays going to be released? I know this was asked before, and you said you're not sure if players would agree, but these are 3v3 replays, they aren't private, each game is owned by at least 7 ppl (bot included).
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Can You add current rank (A, B, C, etc.) on "Player XXXXX matches" site?
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Seems like when people join too fast, the bot can't close slots 4 and 8? Then it doesn't open obs slot, and stays in the first slot forever?
Might want to make it remake the game every few minutes to prevent this from happening.
Edit: nvm, it seems it fixed itself after a minute
Can we not find some trusted person on EU and US to host more of these? Seems there's a good demand for it.
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On June 20 2020 21:08 kurrrak wrote:
Can You add current rank (A, B, C, etc.) on "Player XXXXX matches" site?
Just added this. For now the styling is basic. I might style it better in the future.
On June 26 2020 22:16 quirinus wrote:
Seems like when people join too fast, the bot can't close slots 4 and 8? Then it doesn't open obs slot, and stays in the first slot forever?
Might want to make it remake the game every few minutes to prevent this from happening.
Edit: nvm, it seems it fixed itself after a minute
Can we not find some trusted person on EU and US to host more of these? Seems there's a good demand for it.
Bot can close slots and kick people out but sometimes it is stuck. I try to reset it every couple hours but still sometimes this happens.
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Are there now 4 bots on EU? The game title says "bot 4".
Also, you might want to make a Patreon or a donation link. I know I'd send some of my $ your way. I'm not sure how this works with Blizz ToS though.
Maybe use part of that money to expand to the US server, or hire someone to run/develop things for you.
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On July 06 2020 21:14 quirinus wrote:
Are there now 4 bots on EU? The game title says "bot 4".
Also, you might want to make a Patreon or a donation link. I know I'd send some of my $ your way. I'm not sure how this works with Blizz ToS though.
Maybe use part of that money to expand to the US server, or hire someone to run/develop things for you.
Well sometimes people try trick players to join normal games pretending to be the bot. I've seen a guy with nick BghMmrBot_EU9 and also game names that suggest that they are bot made. Usually there are 2 bot running: BghMmrBot_EU1 ( D3ADR3TARD#2308 ) and BghMmrBot_EU2 ( BghLeagueBot#2231). There is also third bot BghMmrBot_EU3 but I don't use it often. The best thing to do if you want to play balanced games is sending friend request to both bots. Then you will always see when balanced game is made. I try to accept the requests as soon as I see them.
Also, before the game the bot will print current stats of all players as on http://www.bghmmr.eu/. If you don't see this either the bot is stuck or it's not a genuine game.
Because of constant struggle with Xephyr/VirtualGl I've now rewritten some of the code to avoid using those. So now the stability of the system has dropped somehow. But I think that in a longer run this setup will be more stable once I make all the scripts and so on. I even tried running 3 bots at once and it worked but since there are so few people playing now I stick to 2 bots for better stability.
I would like to thank all people who offer to run the bots, help with development or financial support for the project. For now its just a one person non-profit project.
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The bot started banning one of my nicks for every game I am trying to play. It does not seem to be possible to get out of this loop. Even a day later, both bots would ban me. Not even a single explanation is given why this is happening. The author of the bot is unreachable not responding to messages. I do not think this is respectful and considerate behavior. I would not be able to encourage anyone to play with the bot's games if it is acting like this.
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Also, the way the bot counts the points could hopefully be improved.
For example, I often see players jumping in with 2 wins and 1 loss as 1200-1300 points, whereas veterans with about 70 wins and 70 losses around 200-300 MMR points. It does not make much sense.
Also, new players are highly overrated before they show their worth, often starting between 500-1000 points. Players should start from low points if not 0. And then climb up.
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Eu1 bot is having problems starting games...
I have been in some games were he doesnt start the game depsite all players being there and all have races ...
IT also doesnt balance the game, aswell as not starting ...
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On July 18 2020 06:03 lpapp wrote:
The bot started banning one of my nicks for every game I am trying to play. It does not seem to be possible to get out of this loop. Even a day later, both bots would ban me. Not even a single explanation is given why this is happening. The author of the bot is unreachable not responding to messages. I do not think this is respectful and considerate behavior. I would not be able to encourage anyone to play with the bot's games if it is acting like this.
Well, yes I banned you. I see a lot of toxic behavior among players but you really stand out. If you want others to display respectful and considerate behavior towards you you should also behave like this.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FAppjqh.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Zp2AudI.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YAnXRK8.jpg)
That's just from your last few games. I could find way more but I think you get the point. I usually don't react to people talking shit in games but since you do it all the time I decided to add auto ban to the system.
As for contacting bot accounts. Those accounts are constantly in use to create games, It's better to write in this thread than send messages to the bots.
On July 18 2020 06:06 lpapp wrote:
Also, the way the bot counts the points could hopefully be improved.
For example, I often see players jumping in with 2 wins and 1 loss as 1200-1300 points, whereas veterans with about 70 wins and 70 losses around 200-300 MMR points. It does not make much sense.
Also, new players are highly overrated before they show their worth, often starting between 500-1000 points. Players should start from low points if not 0. And then climb up.
Yes, the system can be improved but I disagree in terms on what is the problem. Fresh accounts with less than 5 custom games usually get very little points and that leads to smurfing - good players pretending to be noobs. There is no solution to this other than ban fresh accounts but for now its not implemented as there are few people playing in the first place.
In order to get more than 1000 points in a few matches you have to either have really good custom game stats or have played balanced games with very good apm. I don't think that those players are the reason that games are unbalanced.
But yes the system needs update. There are way more players who player more than 100 games and system needs to be readjusted to this.
On July 19 2020 01:10 Leonix wrote:
Eu1 bot is having problems starting games...
I have been in some games were he doesnt start the game depsite all players being there and all have races ...
IT also doesnt balance the game, aswell as not starting ...
I know. I am experiencing this bug bugs.freedesktop.org and sometimes GPU hangs. I tried starting system with different kernel parameters and I hope this will work. If not I might be forced to change GPU for nvidia because this seems to be the problem with driver/kernel module for AMD cards.
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France1872 Posts
Great stuff!
This needs to be made for regular 2v2s too!
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On July 19 2020 22:15 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2020 06:03 lpapp wrote:
The bot started banning one of my nicks for every game I am trying to play. It does not seem to be possible to get out of this loop. Even a day later, both bots would ban me. Not even a single explanation is given why this is happening. The author of the bot is unreachable not responding to messages. I do not think this is respectful and considerate behavior. I would not be able to encourage anyone to play with the bot's games if it is acting like this. Well, yes I banned you. I see a lot of toxic behavior among players but you really stand out. If you want others to display respectful and considerate behavior towards you you should also behave like this. That's just from your last few games. I could find way more but I think you get the point. I usually don't react to people talking shit in games but since you do it all the time I decided to add auto ban to the system.
Lmfao #exposed so hard. Shame on you, lpapp.
On July 18 2020 06:03 lpapp wrote:
I do not think this is respectful and considerate behavior. I would not be able to encourage anyone to play with the bot's games if it is acting like this.
L O L Such hypocrisy.
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On July 18 2020 06:03 lpapp wrote:
The bot started banning one of my nicks for every game I am trying to play. It does not seem to be possible to get out of this loop. Even a day later, both bots would ban me. Not even a single explanation is given why this is happening. The author of the bot is unreachable not responding to messages. I do not think this is respectful and considerate behavior. I would not be able to encourage anyone to play with the bot's games if it is acting like this.
You must know the reason yourself
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Thank you for your answer and explanation.
I agree with you that the overall atmosphere of battlenet could be better. People could be warned and talked to change this when unacceptable. Battlenet is full of this.
However, I still disagree with banning people without warning. If you do not let people know about this, they will not change. Maybe, immediate inconsiderate reactions are not considerate to inconsiderate messages.
I am happy to change this, which I mainly picked up because people used to talk to me like that when I was a noob. I do not want to go into technicalities, but I have developed a bullet proof jacket for these over time. Even now that I tried to play nice, I had a team mate swearing at me when, in fact, he was not playing so well according to apm and scores. I assume he did not get banned. But yeah, it is not an excuse though for sure. I agree about that.
But banning without any prior warning or notice is still not the best way to go. Everyone should get a chance.
Having said that, I do sincerely apologise for my messages and will try to avoid them in the future. Thank you for your work.
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I do not think it is a good idea not to allow new accounts to play. Not everyone will purchase the paid version to play ranked games. They should be able to play with the free version.
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EPT
