EPTOn February 02 2017 14:18 Jealous wrote:
Mods used to actually do something about it in the past, though.
Mods used to actually do something about it in the past, though.
I bet past mods were all terran
[BW][Afreeca] Top 5 Players January 2017 - Page 4
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
I bet past mods were all terran | ||
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hitthat
Poland2349 Posts
On February 02 2017 03:50 Jae Zedong wrote: Zergs get nuked in ZvT, Protosses get nuked in PvZ. Meanwhile Terran's only "bad" matchup is pretty close to 50-50%. Zerg found in both MUs. But it's a terran a problem here? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
e: Rain's PvZ record actually doesn't seem bad, but he has 4 losses with no win vs effOrt lol | ||
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AdelSC123
France362 Posts
On February 02 2017 12:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: Wow rain not bad. Except his PvZ  | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25658 Posts
Usually you guys in the BW forum didn't balance whine as much  | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
Like you guys realize Flash and Last are badly skewing the vT win rates, and they have approximately the same win rates in TvT as they do in TvZ and TvP - meaning it's a result of the players being OP, not the race? The data only shows that players do poorly against Flash and Last, not vs. Terran in general. Yank their games against those two players and everyone's win rate vs Terran looks completely reasonable. | ||
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friendbg
Bulgaria576 Posts
On February 02 2017 21:17 KadaverBB wrote: Usually you guys in the BW forum didn't balance whine as much I see it more as good old fashioned trash talk rather than balance whine. | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
On February 03 2017 01:03 JungleTerrain wrote: Just a question but who was the most accomplished ZvTer in history and what was his winrate? You've touched upon a very important point here. There has never been a ZvT specialist. ZvT specialist meaning having significantly higher winrates in ZvT than other matchups (apart from short bursts of dominance when new builds are discovered). We have TvZ specialists, ZvP, TvP, PvT, hell even PvZ (Bisu). But there has never been a Zerg successfully being a ZvT specialist at the highest level over long periods of time. Closest we've had during the last 10 years was when Jaedong broke onto the scene, but that honeymoon was soon over. Ever since then ZvT has been Jaedong's worst matchup just like virtually any other Zerg ever. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5899 Posts
 YellOw[ArnC]'s He even kicked Flash out of the MSL of 2008 by defeating him 2 times in a row. (I think that's just before Flash became the ultimate weapon. However still Flash and Flash was good before winning medals too.) | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
Boxer era player. A legend who was good at 1 base plays but lost 10 of his last 15 ZvTs. There's a reason I said "last 10 years" because at some point it's like a different game. But fair point. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On February 03 2017 01:38 Jae Zedong wrote: Boxer era player. A legend who was good at 1 base plays but lost 10 of his last 15 ZvTs. There's a reason I said "last 10 years" because at some point it's like a different game. But fair point. You're mistaking Yellow for Yarnc. Yarnc was a much more modern-era player. But yeah. Compare the number of TvZ specialists to the number of ZvT specialists. | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On February 03 2017 01:13 Jae Zedong wrote: You've touched upon a very important point here. There has never been a ZvT specialist. ZvT specialist meaning having significantly higher winrates in ZvT than other matchups (apart from short bursts of dominance when new builds are discovered). We have TvZ specialists, ZvP, TvP, PvT, hell even PvZ (Bisu). But there has never been a Zerg successfully being a ZvT specialist at the highest level over long periods of time. Closest we've had during the last 10 years was when Jaedong broke onto the scene, but that honeymoon was soon over. Ever since then ZvT has been Jaedong's worst matchup just like virtually any other Zerg ever. Incorrect. Savior's best MU by far was ZvT. ZvZ: 58% ZvP: 55% ZvT: 66% From 2004-2007 he averaged a 72% win ratio vs. Terran and a 61.5% win ratio vs. everything else. Savior reached bonjwa status on the back of his vT specifically. And yes if you're looking for a more modern player Yarnc is a good example. See above, Yarnc is not Yellow. On February 03 2017 01:07 kogeT wrote: Jaedong with 63% winrate. Savior 66%! | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
Jaedong's ZvZ and ZvP are insane, he only lost a single BO5 ZvP in his entire career. If ZvT wasn't in the game I'm pretty sure he'd be heralded as the unrivalled eternal bonjwa to out-bonjwa all other bonjwas who ever played the game. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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tedster
984 Posts
On February 03 2017 02:22 Jae Zedong wrote: Y'all got a few nice counter examples, but most of them are over the 10 year mark and the bottom line still stands: ZvT is friggin hard and there's barely a Zerg in the modern era who doesn't have disproportionately bad results in it. ZvT specialists are barely even a thing, and that's saying something. Compare it to the number of other specialists. Terrans are always the thorn in Zerg's side. Jaedong's ZvZ and ZvP are insane, he only lost a single BO5 ZvP in his entire career. If ZvT wasn't in the game I'm pretty sure he'd be heralded as the unrivalled eternal bonjwa to out-bonjwa all other bonjwas who ever played the game. Savior and Yarnc are both under your arbitrary 10 year line. Plus everything from about 2012 on doesn't even really count if we're talking about pro records. If you're literally only talking about "Modern" zergs then Yarnc definitely fits the bill. You're absolutely right that Terran is not commonly a zerg player's best matchup but it's dishonest to claim that no zergs existed who dominated Terrans. It happened, and they were not fluke players with tiny sample sizes. | ||
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Jealous
10365 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On February 03 2017 01:54 tedster wrote: Incorrect. Savior's best MU by far was ZvT. ZvZ: 58% ZvP: 55% ZvT: 66% From 2004-2007 he averaged a 72% win ratio vs. Terran and a 61.5% win ratio vs. everything else. Savior reached bonjwa status on the back of his vT specifically. And yes if you're looking for a more modern player Yarnc is a good example. See above, Yarnc is not Yellow. I'm checking TLPD and Savior's numbers between January 1st 2004 and January 1st 2008 are ZvT: 96-65 (59.63%) ZvZ: 54-39 (58.06%) ZvP: 77-30 (71.96%) So I don't get where your numbers are coming from. On February 03 2017 03:00 Jealous wrote: Just look at his name to understand why he does this in so many threads. There is no convincing a devout Zerg like him. It's much easier to cry imba than it is to improve yourself or admit that you're wrong. Cmon dude you're contributing less than the guys you're talking about. There ARE legitimate balance discussions that can be had. There is no competitive game/sport in which balancing odds and making things fair isn't a huge part of the discussion. There are notable imbalances in the game right now and there's nothing wrong with just talking about it. | ||
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