Thank you for voting guys! If you checked out the first thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360503, then you should know that there is going to be an eSports Hall of Fame commemorating BW legends for all their effort so that their legacies can live on forever, and that people got to vote for who deserved to be on it.
After tallying up the results, the final twenty who will be rewarded for their contributions have been announced! The date for the ceremony has been set for September 22nd, at the same place where the 2012 SK Planet ProLeague grand finals will be held.
still a bit sad no modern era zerg except JD (gorush and july played recent but are not that modern era in origin/style) is on the list. Especially the last zerg OSL champions besides jaedong in effort and ggplay had got like 45%.
I'm so pleased to see GoRush in this list. He's so often overlooked but he was soooooooooooo incredibly good. Not a single person on this list you can argue against.
On September 15 2012 05:14 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: sAviOr
Are you really that surprised?
You can be sad without being surprised. Based on in-game merit there's no denying he should be there. His exclusion is understandable, but seeing a list like this after the end of Korean professional Brood War and lamenting the exclusion of one of its greats only makes sense, even if the reasoning for that exclusion is understood. Savior was one of the best to ever play the game, even if Ma Jae Yoon was an idiot/douchebag/whatever insult you want to throw at him.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I think this is honestly the best list. People who cry for Zero and Effort and the like... Find one name on the list you would replace them with and explain why. No one who knows the value of these names would remove them imo.
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
It's the hall of fame, not the record of who has the most accomplishments. Savior doesn't deserve the honor of being apart of the hall of fame.
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I just want to remind every Savior supporter that this is eSports Hall of Fame, not Best Players Ever and not Most Dominant Players Ever and not Most SL Titles list. Cheating is against sportsmanship, just as much as doping, and therefore he has no place in a hall of fame dedicated to the SPORT HE CHEATED IN. People who get caught doping get their medals taken away. Savior lost everything when he cheated. That is ALL. There really can be no debate about this.
Weird that the least successful race has the most people in the hall of fame. Overall I would have liked it if they inducted a select few every year like professional sports instead of all at once.
On September 15 2012 05:36 setzer wrote: Weird that the least successful race has the most people in the hall of fame. Overall I would have liked it if they inducted a select few every year like professional sports instead of all at once.
Maybe they'll have tiered entry? Like year 1 = 20 graduates, 1st class. Year 2 = 10/20/30 graduates, 2nd class. Etc.
As far as the race thing, it makes sense exactly for the reason you mentioned - due to the fact that no dominating force came about, the dominance in what is effectively 1/3rd of the game was spread over more people, for a variety of reasons and over the same period of time as fewer people in other races.
All the people who deserved to get in got in so I'm happy with the list. Pleasantly surprised Grrr got in. Glad to see his accomplishments haven't been forgotten. Can anyone shed some light for me on Gorush? With only a single MSL win I wouldn't have figured him to have made the 60% cut off line.
On September 15 2012 03:56 N.geNuity wrote: poor zero lol.
still a bit sad no modern era zerg except JD (gorush and july played recent but are not that modern era in origin/style) is on the list. Especially the last zerg OSL champions besides jaedong in effort and ggplay had got like 45%.
The awesome moment when you still know every single 1 of them. BROOD WAR FOR EVER!!! altho im kinda sad none of the CJ Zergs made it... =/ (excluding sAviOr for obvious reason... dont wanna argue about that... T^T)
I like how they used the whitest picture they could find of Grrr so the contrast is hilarious between all the Koreans and him. It looks like they bleached his face.
Every single Protoss on the list there is a legend, and deserves to be there. The 3 Kings, 2 Neo Kings, the best of the Dragons, and Grrrr... Its hard for me to even compare their legacy with someone like Zero, although I suppose you can make a case for Effort.
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I just want to remind every Savior supporter that this is eSports Hall of Fame, not Best Players Ever and not Most Dominant Players Ever and not Most SL Titles list. Cheating is against sportsmanship, just as much as doping, and therefore he has no place in a hall of fame dedicated to the SPORT HE CHEATED IN. People who get caught doping get their medals taken away. Savior lost everything when he cheated. That is ALL. There really can be no debate about this.
Don't compare cheating and match fixing. He earned all his wins.
its such a happy and sad post at the same time Thinking about all the great players but then BW is coming to an end hopefully we can have a nice hall of fame for all the star2 players when that comes to an end
On September 15 2012 11:53 Sentenal wrote: Every single Protoss on the list there is a legend, and deserves to be there. The 3 Kings, 2 Neo Kings, the best of the Dragons, and Grrrr... Its hard for me to even compare their legacy with someone like Zero, although I suppose you can make a case for Effort.
There is a reason that you had a list of titles for people.... then grrr. As cool as grrr is, no one would be considering him if he wasn't a foreigner. There isn't anyone I felt got left off the list that should be ahead of him, but I don't think that someone should be on the list just because they aren't korean.
I'm also not a fan of chojja or kingdom being on there. I think that the players that don't have multiple titles should either have a whole mess of silvers (yellow, fantasy, and stork) or have ridiculously long careers and very strong proleague showings (gorush, anytime and xellos). I'm kind of on the fence on those last three as well. At least there was no one I felt that should be on the list that got left off.
On September 15 2012 11:53 Sentenal wrote: Every single Protoss on the list there is a legend, and deserves to be there. The 3 Kings, 2 Neo Kings, the best of the Dragons, and Grrrr... Its hard for me to even compare their legacy with someone like Zero, although I suppose you can make a case for Effort.
There is a reason that you had a list of titles for people.... then grrr. As cool as grrr is, no one would be considering him if he wasn't a foreigner. There isn't anyone I felt got left off the list that should be ahead of him, but I don't think that someone should be on the list just because they aren't korean.
I'm also not a fan of chojja or kingdom being on there. I think that the players that don't have multiple titles should either have a whole mess of silvers (yellow, fantasy, and stork) or have ridiculously long careers and very strong proleague showings (gorush, anytime and xellos). I'm kind of on the fence on those last three as well. At least there was no one I felt that should be on the list that got left off.
But you are talking in comparison to someone like Zero or Effort, right? Effort has 1 OSL, and Zero has nothing. Anytime has an OSL gold and an OSL Silver, not to mention his status as one of the 3 Neo Kings. Grrr... also has an OSL gold, not to mention hes like one of the original good Protosses (basically, hes like the pre-pre-modern BW representative there), and the only non-Korean OSL winner.
Of that list, I think you could make a case for Effort over like Xellos or Gorush... Maybe Chojja? But I think that most everyone else is pretty legit for being in the Hall of Fame.
On September 15 2012 11:53 Sentenal wrote: Every single Protoss on the list there is a legend, and deserves to be there. The 3 Kings, 2 Neo Kings, the best of the Dragons, and Grrrr... Its hard for me to even compare their legacy with someone like Zero, although I suppose you can make a case for Effort.
There is a reason that you had a list of titles for people.... then grrr. As cool as grrr is, no one would be considering him if he wasn't a foreigner. There isn't anyone I felt got left off the list that should be ahead of him, but I don't think that someone should be on the list just because they aren't korean.
I'm also not a fan of chojja or kingdom being on there. I think that the players that don't have multiple titles should either have a whole mess of silvers (yellow, fantasy, and stork) or have ridiculously long careers and very strong proleague showings (gorush, anytime and xellos). I'm kind of on the fence on those last three as well. At least there was no one I felt that should be on the list that got left off.
But you are talking in comparison to someone like Zero or Effort, right? Effort has 1 OSL, and Zero has nothing. Anytime has an OSL gold and an OSL Silver, not to mention his status as one of the 3 Neo Kings. Grrr... also has an OSL gold, not to mention hes like one of the original good Protosses (basically, hes like the pre-pre-modern BW representative there), and the only non-Korean OSL winner.
Of that list, I think you could make a case for Effort over like Xellos or Gorush... Maybe Chojja? But I think that most everyone else is pretty legit for being in the Hall of Fame.
No. I like chojja, xellos, anytime, ect. over anyone else. I don't want them replaced, I want the list smaller.
On September 15 2012 11:53 Sentenal wrote: Every single Protoss on the list there is a legend, and deserves to be there. The 3 Kings, 2 Neo Kings, the best of the Dragons, and Grrrr... Its hard for me to even compare their legacy with someone like Zero, although I suppose you can make a case for Effort.
There is a reason that you had a list of titles for people.... then grrr. As cool as grrr is, no one would be considering him if he wasn't a foreigner. There isn't anyone I felt got left off the list that should be ahead of him, but I don't think that someone should be on the list just because they aren't korean.
I'm also not a fan of chojja or kingdom being on there. I think that the players that don't have multiple titles should either have a whole mess of silvers (yellow, fantasy, and stork) or have ridiculously long careers and very strong proleague showings (gorush, anytime and xellos). I'm kind of on the fence on those last three as well. At least there was no one I felt that should be on the list that got left off.
What's your criteria for 'a whole mess of silvers?' Chojja has 3, 1 less than Stork and Fantasy, to go along with his MSL gold. He was also the #1 Kespa ranked player for a while. Would be a shame if he were the only one to have done so yet not made the hall of fame (except Savior ofc). I say Chojja gets in.
On September 15 2012 13:20 tryummm wrote: I really think Effort should have been included. Or maybe even Soulkey. And I absolutely disagree with Grr (As he had under a 50% win percentage).
Hydra has a better claim to HoF than Effort. Effort screwed his chances by retiring in his prime. Soulkey isn't even close, he never even made the Ro8 in the individual leagues. That being said I agree with Jaedong being the only modern era zerg to be included. That's how dominant he was.
On September 15 2012 13:20 tryummm wrote: I really think Effort should have been included. Or maybe even Soulkey. And I absolutely disagree with Grr (As he had under a 50% win percentage).
Grrr was an innovator though. He wasn't that great, but revolutionized strategy during these early years.
On September 15 2012 13:20 tryummm wrote: I really think Effort should have been included. Or maybe even Soulkey. And I absolutely disagree with Grr (As he had under a 50% win percentage).
Grrr should be definitely be in because he is one of the early pioneer of korean bw scene and a innovator as well. Personally I feel none of the modern zergs deserve to be in but JD. Effort was looking like a future hall of famer and on the rise but decided to randomly retire out of nowhere.
On September 15 2012 14:58 DMXD wrote: Grrr should be definitely be in because he is one of the early pioneer of korean bw scene and a innovator as well. Personally I feel none of the modern zergs deserve to be in but JD. Effort was looking like a future hall of famer and on the rise but decided to randomly retire out of nowhere.
On September 15 2012 14:58 DMXD wrote: Grrr should be definitely be in because he is one of the early pioneer of korean bw scene and a innovator as well. Personally I feel none of the modern zergs deserve to be in but JD. Effort was looking like a future hall of famer and on the rise but decided to randomly retire out of nowhere.
and then he came back and was still really good
Effort didnt really do anything legendary so.. I dont even know why should he be on this list ?
nevermind, I bet its just the fanboyism speaking through some people
I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
On September 15 2012 15:08 masterbreti wrote: I didn't see a exact location. Will the public be able to attend? if so who wants to make a mini-TL meetup for it?
If I find a location, I will most definitely edit it in later
On September 15 2012 15:37 iSCOUT4u wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Ddang?
If I had to pick a standard terran who never made it to an OSL or MSL final to include in the hall of fame, Midas wouldn't even be my first choice.
On September 15 2012 15:48 skrotcyk wrote: I don't see why it's called "eSports Hall of Fame"
It should be called "Brood War Hall of Fame" if anything
These people mastered their ESPORT broodwar more than any other person has mastered a competitive game. Think about it what other game had that long of a run with serious competitions. Maybe some shooters like CS or Quake or an RTS like WC3 and perhaps some old school RTS like AOE2, but even with mastering their own games they didn't have the competition pool of BW.
On September 15 2012 05:36 Holgerius wrote: Make it the ''Hall of Infamy'' and I'd accept Savior in there. In a Hall of Fame, no fucking way.
"Hole of shame" sounds more funny for me ;P
On September 15 2012 13:42 Sentenal wrote: I think any modern Zerg not named "Effort" or obviously Jaedong has no claim at all to being on the list. Hydra? Soulkey? Are you kidding me?
How about Calm? He hasnt been really impresive in PL, but in individuals he had 1 MSL gold and multiple semi-final appearances, that is a lot of acomplishment, much more than Effort had. Even if we think it's a little "overperformance" for a player of his skill.
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I just want to remind every Savior supporter that this is eSports Hall of Fame, not Best Players Ever and not Most Dominant Players Ever and not Most SL Titles list. Cheating is against sportsmanship, just as much as doping, and therefore he has no place in a hall of fame dedicated to the SPORT HE CHEATED IN. People who get caught doping get their medals taken away. Savior lost everything when he cheated. That is ALL. There really can be no debate about this.
If it's about fame, he should be in it, period. He is one of the greatest and, one every single level, one of the key figure in the history of that game. If you don't want Savior, make a "hall of the nice guys" or whatever.
And it's not like Savior won his titles by cheating. Then I would understand, the same way that yeah, if you make a hall of fame of cycling, then, no Armstrong because the way he achieved what he achieved was not legit.
Mind you, Savior hasn't even dropped a single game on purpose. Inside the boot, as a brood war player he has always been 100% legit. His criminal activities as a match fixer are regretable, you can very well hate him for that, but that's just another story. Now, a list of the greatest zerg without Savior looks like a list of the best heavyweight boxers without Mike Tyson. It just makes no sense at all.
Grr and Kingdom are out of place imo... Don't see why they should get in and Effort not. Though Kingdom's accomplishments as coach must be considered too. Other than that lovely list.
And also to the people saying Zero and Soulkey: wtf? This isn't a fanboy's list of fame.
On September 15 2012 15:37 iSCOUT4u wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Ddang?
If I had to pick a standard terran who never made it to an OSL or MSL final to include in the hall of fame, Midas wouldn't even be my first choice.
Super good TvP and only one to rival Savior slightly, choking hard doesn't help his case though I don't really see what XellOs did that was so special to get him on that list. I'm not against it though I love XellOs <3
On September 15 2012 15:37 iSCOUT4u wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Ddang?
If I had to pick a standard terran who never made it to an OSL or MSL final to include in the hall of fame, Midas wouldn't even be my first choice.
I don't see who would deserve it more than Midas or Iris...
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I just want to remind every Savior supporter that this is eSports Hall of Fame, not Best Players Ever and not Most Dominant Players Ever and not Most SL Titles list. Cheating is against sportsmanship, just as much as doping, and therefore he has no place in a hall of fame dedicated to the SPORT HE CHEATED IN. People who get caught doping get their medals taken away. Savior lost everything when he cheated. That is ALL. There really can be no debate about this.
If it's about fame, he should be in it, period. He is one of the greatest and, one every single level, one of the key figure in the history of that game. If you don't want Savior, make a "hall of the nice guys" or whatever.
And it's not like Savior won his titles by cheating. Then I would understand, the same way that yeah, if you make a hall of fame of cycling, then, no Armstrong because the way he achieved what he achieved was not legit.
Mind you, Savior hasn't even dropped a single game on purpose. Inside the boot, as a brood war player he has always been 100% legit. His criminal activities as a match fixer are regretable, you can very well hate him for that, but that's just another story. Now, a list of the greatest zerg without Savior looks like a list of the best heavyweight boxers without Mike Tyson. It just makes no sense at all.
The 'e-sports Hall of Fame' will commemorate the many progamers who acquired many achievements and plant the players' honor and self-esteem along with enchancing their images in a hall that will uplift them.
On September 15 2012 15:48 skrotcyk wrote: I don't see why it's called "eSports Hall of Fame"
It should be called "Brood War Hall of Fame" if anything
These people mastered their ESPORT broodwar more than any other person has mastered a competitive game. Think about it what other game had that long of a run with serious competitions. Maybe some shooters like CS or Quake or an RTS like WC3 and perhaps some old school RTS like AOE2, but even with mastering their own games they didn't have the competition pool of BW.
I know this is a BW forum and you guys won't acknowledge it but... Moon
On September 15 2012 15:48 skrotcyk wrote: I don't see why it's called "eSports Hall of Fame"
It should be called "Brood War Hall of Fame" if anything
These people mastered their ESPORT broodwar more than any other person has mastered a competitive game. Think about it what other game had that long of a run with serious competitions. Maybe some shooters like CS or Quake or an RTS like WC3 and perhaps some old school RTS like AOE2, but even with mastering their own games they didn't have the competition pool of BW.
I know this is a BW forum and you guys won't acknowledge it but... Moon
I and quite a few other I believe totally agree that Moon would deserve it =)
On September 15 2012 02:41 SeeKeR wrote: After tallying up the results, the final twenty who will be rewarded for their contributions have been announced! The date for the ceremony has been set for September 22nd, at the same place where the 2012 SK Planet ProLeague grand finals will be held.
That means they will all be together on the stage right? If so, the epicness of the pictures will be off charts
I'm still waiting for this "According to a report from FOMOS (online professional game media), he's living a life as ordinary staff of a company, but he said that he could return to the professional game field after the launching of StarCraft II" come one grrr
On September 15 2012 22:37 InsidiA wrote: I'm still waiting for this "According to a report from FOMOS (online professional game media), he's living a life as ordinary staff of a company, but he said that he could return to the professional game field after the launching of StarCraft II" come one grrr
grrr tried out for GSL Open 1 and didn't make it, so I guess he gave that up.
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I just want to remind every Savior supporter that this is eSports Hall of Fame, not Best Players Ever and not Most Dominant Players Ever and not Most SL Titles list. Cheating is against sportsmanship, just as much as doping, and therefore he has no place in a hall of fame dedicated to the SPORT HE CHEATED IN. People who get caught doping get their medals taken away. Savior lost everything when he cheated. That is ALL. There really can be no debate about this.
If it's about fame, he should be in it, period. He is one of the greatest and, one every single level, one of the key figure in the history of that game. If you don't want Savior, make a "hall of the nice guys" or whatever.
And it's not like Savior won his titles by cheating. Then I would understand, the same way that yeah, if you make a hall of fame of cycling, then, no Armstrong because the way he achieved what he achieved was not legit.
Mind you, Savior hasn't even dropped a single game on purpose. Inside the boot, as a brood war player he has always been 100% legit. His criminal activities as a match fixer are regretable, you can very well hate him for that, but that's just another story. Now, a list of the greatest zerg without Savior looks like a list of the best heavyweight boxers without Mike Tyson. It just makes no sense at all.
It makes no sense putting someone who had a major hand in killing the sport in its hall of fame... Savior is INfamous and took a massive shit on the integrity and hard work of the gamers who came before and after him. There's no way he deserves to be honoured in anything like this.
... All this sAviOr talk makes me sick... As much of a Ma Jae Yoon fanboy I am, I agree with the others who say that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. Guys cmon, he cheated. He did something bad, and something that probably killed Starcraft Brood War. At least, the cheating scandal did impact the Brood War scene quite a bit.
And for those who say he should be there, I'd love to see him up there as well, but fact is, he doesn't deserve to be up there. Let's say that someone like Tim Duncan, or Kobe Bryant, or any big superstar was caught CHEATING or using STEROIDS or something. Do they deserve to be up on that list for NBA HoF. Hell no. You know the old saying... Cheaters never prosper? Well, there's one thing that they'll never prosper in, getting into the HoF.
So stop bitching about sAviOr not in. Maybe he shouldn't have cheated. Ever thought of that?
On September 15 2012 15:37 iSCOUT4u wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Ddang?
If I had to pick a standard terran who never made it to an OSL or MSL final to include in the hall of fame, Midas wouldn't even be my first choice.
Super good TvP and only one to rival Savior slightly, choking hard doesn't help his case though I don't really see what XellOs did that was so special to get him on that list. I'm not against it though I love XellOs <3
He was the one that made CJ Entus basically up from the G.O. days with his personal tournament winnings.
+ the handsomness.
Xellos is the most handsome nerd ever and yes he wiped the floor with NaDa, Bisu, AND BoxeR
On September 15 2012 23:30 FlaShFTW wrote: ... All this sAviOr talk makes me sick... As much of a Ma Jae Yoon fanboy I am, I agree with the others who say that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. Guys cmon, he cheated. He did something bad, and something that probably killed Starcraft Brood War. At least, the cheating scandal did impact the Brood War scene quite a bit.
And for those who say he should be there, I'd love to see him up there as well, but fact is, he doesn't deserve to be up there. Let's say that someone like Tim Duncan, or Kobe Bryant, or any big superstar was caught CHEATING or using STEROIDS or something. Do they deserve to be up on that list for NBA HoF. Hell no. You know the old saying... Cheaters never prosper? Well, there's one thing that they'll never prosper in, getting into the HoF.
So stop bitching about sAviOr not in. Maybe he shouldn't have cheated. Ever thought of that?
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I have to echo this poster's thoughts.
Sad to see people who can't distinguish between the player and the person. ;_; Then again maybe I'm the odd one out here since the only thing that matters to me is skill :s
On September 15 2012 23:30 FlaShFTW wrote: ... All this sAviOr talk makes me sick... As much of a Ma Jae Yoon fanboy I am, I agree with the others who say that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. Guys cmon, he cheated. He did something bad, and something that probably killed Starcraft Brood War. At least, the cheating scandal did impact the Brood War scene quite a bit.
And for those who say he should be there, I'd love to see him up there as well, but fact is, he doesn't deserve to be up there. Let's say that someone like Tim Duncan, or Kobe Bryant, or any big superstar was caught CHEATING or using STEROIDS or something. Do they deserve to be up on that list for NBA HoF. Hell no. You know the old saying... Cheaters never prosper? Well, there's one thing that they'll never prosper in, getting into the HoF.
So stop bitching about sAviOr not in. Maybe he shouldn't have cheated. Ever thought of that?
sAviOr did not cheat... he lost matches for money after hitting his peak. (iloveoov said in one of his interviews it could be due to the fact that sAviOr had gotten really bored in that period of time) Every single one of his wins was legitimate, because he was that motherfucking good, which is why he deserves to be here more than half of the people on the list. ~_~
I'm guessing SaviOr didn't make it because he's a dick? Still, if the poll is for hall of famers controversy has to be put aside. He really should be in here.
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I have to echo this poster's thoughts.
Sad to see people who can't distinguish between the player and the person. ;_; Then again maybe I'm the odd one out here since the only thing that matters to me is skill :s
On September 15 2012 23:30 FlaShFTW wrote: ... All this sAviOr talk makes me sick... As much of a Ma Jae Yoon fanboy I am, I agree with the others who say that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. Guys cmon, he cheated. He did something bad, and something that probably killed Starcraft Brood War. At least, the cheating scandal did impact the Brood War scene quite a bit.
And for those who say he should be there, I'd love to see him up there as well, but fact is, he doesn't deserve to be up there. Let's say that someone like Tim Duncan, or Kobe Bryant, or any big superstar was caught CHEATING or using STEROIDS or something. Do they deserve to be up on that list for NBA HoF. Hell no. You know the old saying... Cheaters never prosper? Well, there's one thing that they'll never prosper in, getting into the HoF.
So stop bitching about sAviOr not in. Maybe he shouldn't have cheated. Ever thought of that?
sAviOr did not cheat... he lost matches for money after hitting his peak. (iloveoov said in one of his interviews it could be due to the fact that sAviOr had gotten really bored in that period of time) Every single one of his wins was legitimate, because he was that motherfucking good, which is why he deserves to be here more than half of the people on the list. ~_~
I think you and others would reconsider this position if you talked to every player enshrined and every person who has worked years and years to bring BW and e-sports to the level it is at right now.
On September 15 2012 05:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: And Savior is not there.
/list.
Ok, Savior is a bad guy, he cheated, whatever you want, but he has been the most dominant zerg, one of the five or so best players ever, the first to be called bonjwa and the initiator of zerg modern thinking. And definitly the most influential player on zerg's general theory, strategy, build orders and tactics.
But oh, let's pretend he didn't exist because huuu herm, he cheated, you know...
I guess it doesn't matter that compared to him, three quarters of those players have achieved almost nothing...
I have to echo this poster's thoughts.
Sad to see people who can't distinguish between the player and the person. ;_; Then again maybe I'm the odd one out here since the only thing that matters to me is skill :s
On September 15 2012 23:30 FlaShFTW wrote: ... All this sAviOr talk makes me sick... As much of a Ma Jae Yoon fanboy I am, I agree with the others who say that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. Guys cmon, he cheated. He did something bad, and something that probably killed Starcraft Brood War. At least, the cheating scandal did impact the Brood War scene quite a bit.
And for those who say he should be there, I'd love to see him up there as well, but fact is, he doesn't deserve to be up there. Let's say that someone like Tim Duncan, or Kobe Bryant, or any big superstar was caught CHEATING or using STEROIDS or something. Do they deserve to be up on that list for NBA HoF. Hell no. You know the old saying... Cheaters never prosper? Well, there's one thing that they'll never prosper in, getting into the HoF.
So stop bitching about sAviOr not in. Maybe he shouldn't have cheated. Ever thought of that?
sAviOr did not cheat... he lost matches for money after hitting his peak. (iloveoov said in one of his interviews it could be due to the fact that sAviOr had gotten really bored in that period of time) Every single one of his wins was legitimate, because he was that motherfucking good, which is why he deserves to be here more than half of the people on the list. ~_~
I think you and others would reconsider this position if you talked to every player enshrined and every person who has worked years and years to bring BW and e-sports to the level it is at right now.
exactly my thoughts. you have to think about the work that the players made, people like boxer and yellow, nada, iloveoov, the players that got bw to where it is today. savior basically killed like 3/4 of that earn in one situation. sponsors pulling out can also be contributed to the scandal which in-turn makes the impact even bigger. the only real things that helped the fall of bw was kpop (RIP MSL ) and sc2.
On September 15 2012 15:37 iSCOUT4u wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Ddang?
If I had to pick a standard terran who never made it to an OSL or MSL final to include in the hall of fame, Midas wouldn't even be my first choice.
I don't see who would deserve it more than Midas or Iris...
On September 16 2012 01:04 Harem wrote: this isn't a savior thread
Honestly we're merely talking about the integrity of the list in a civilised manner that doesn't bash any of the players. :s
Even suggesting that savior should be placed alongside these players is an insult to every single one of them. This is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of "this guy won some starcraft games." To suggest that savior deserves this achievement is just dumb.
Happy to see Kingdom being voted in. In my opinion he deserves it, OSL gold, MSL silver, crucial to T1's early Proleague success with a bunch of important wins in finals. The fact that he also made top4 in Hanbitsoft OSL and top4 in Pringles-1 MSL, 5 years in-between, is hella impressive.
On September 16 2012 03:38 xxpack09 wrote: Even suggesting that savior should be placed alongside these players is an insult to every single one of them. This is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of "this guy won some starcraft games." To suggest that savior deserves this achievement is just dumb.
Agree. Character matters. What if one of those players had committed a grave felony after their playing days such as rape or murder? You wouldn't want him in the hall of fame.
Other hall of fames routinely deny or rescind induction for character reasons and this hall of fame is no exception.
Dono why people hate on Giyom. He was the best player for like a year, and he deserves to be there IMO. He helped pave the way for others. Also, sAviOr definitely doesn't deserve to be there because it's largely him and the betting scandal which ended BW in Korea.
I like these results. no savior is sad of course though!
On September 15 2012 20:07 sharkie wrote: Grr and Kingdom are out of place imo... Don't see why they should get in and Effort not. Though Kingdom's accomplishments as coach must be considered too. Other than that lovely list.
And also to the people saying Zero and Soulkey: wtf? This isn't a fanboy's list of fame.
This is 100% a good list, and there is no one that's not on this list that i think deserves to be on here. Very very happy that they decided to vote those three additional people in.
Midas, Iris, Effort, Calm, Sea etc. - none of them had even close to the impact to the game that these players on the list have had. Fanboyism aside, this is an objectively good ranking of a Hall of Fame in terms of impact to the game. These are the players that have left their mark in the history of professional Broodwar...
For ChRh, I really don't think he did enough. He just simply wasn't at the same level that his peers from the same age were at - he was a good player, but not the best, or even close to it. TheMarine was a very average player, making next to no impact on individual leagues and only playing some team leagues. A lot of his fame came retroactively from his work as a caster. In terms of gameplay, I think it's fine that he's not on this list.
I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
On September 23 2012 23:49 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
For those saying noone would remember Grrrr... if he wasn't a foreigner - he was the best in the world at one point and revolutionised the way the game was played at the time. I would have liked to see TheMarine make the list, over Kingdom I guess but I wouldn't argue with anyone who disagreed. It's a great representation of the giants of the game.
On September 23 2012 23:49 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Grrr vs Zerglee (i think) where he uses maelstrom on ultra/ling to come back into the game blew my mind when i was a kid, doesnt matter that he's a non-korean. Everybody who witnessed that game have to agree that he deserves the hall of fame. Not to mention that he was #1 in the world for a while
On September 23 2012 23:49 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Well he did win an OSL, and did some innovative stuff. Being a foreigner definitely helps, but I think he deserves a spot.
Savior was a great player. I don't disagree with that, and am not going to take any of those wins away from him. But he doesn't deserve a spot here. Someone who hurt the integrity of a sport doesn't deserve the same kind of fame this HoF offers. Sure, he'll be in top5 for best BW players ever, but not a HoF. He's one of the reasons that put a premature end to Korean televised BW.
On September 23 2012 23:49 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Well he did win an OSL, and did some innovative stuff. Being a foreigner definitely helps, but I think he deserves a spot.
Savior was a great player. I don't disagree with that, and am not going to take any of those wins away from him. But he doesn't deserve a spot here. Someone who hurt the integrity of a sport doesn't deserve the same kind of fame this HoF offers. Sure, he'll be in top5 for best BW players ever, but not a HoF. He's one of the reasons that put a premature end to Korean televised BW.
He not only won an OSL, he won the very first OSL. At least it seems to be the tournament that OGN reguards as the first OSL. Plus he did quite a bit of stuff in the pre-StarLeague days. He was definitively one of the best players of his era.
Agreed on SaviOr, he's part of the reason pro BW died so he frankly has no place being honoured in a hall of fame.
Edit: also, Midas has never even made the finals of an individual league. Hard to argue for him over Grrrr...
On September 23 2012 23:49 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Yeah winning the first OSL ever is definitely not a big deal.
On September 23 2012 23:49 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I don't really agree with Kingdom or Grrr. As someone already said if Grrr wasn't a foreinger nobody would remember him today. I would have included Midas.
Yeah winning the first OSL ever is definitely not a big deal.
Also worth to note, that Korea was pretty serious about starcraft since release, so a foreigner coming up and wrecking shit for half a year was a big deal. You gotta give props where its due.
Iris,Midas,Sea,Mind,Zero(first of all players who ever microed 2 controll groups of mutas),Calm,effort,hojjae,Kwanro,much and where the is kal? Lomo the cutest of all brood war players THe Rock, the hardest of all players furthermore :fakeyellow,luxury,hawsin,leta,light,upmagic,baby,hiya,horang2, best,free ggaemo ( the most underestimated player of all !! ) Cuteboy( underestimated as well) and where is sunglasses Elky and VGundam. best foreigner ever : Testie [pG]Fisheye and [fff]DaLaiLameR
and the one and only FAIL BAD HAIR NO aka Firebathero not forgetting the only pro i ever played ( and once one ) : Firefist
On September 24 2012 12:17 Wedge wrote: Man, what a great lineup.
Such history and memories
Ya. You can make an argument that some people are missing, but everyone on that list is one of the all time great.
Edit: btw, didn't Grrr... technically win his OSL playing random? That would make him the only player ever to win a major tournement in either BW or WoL playing random (or race picking), no? Liquipedia lists him as playing random, but the OSL 10 year aniversary video listed him under random.
On September 24 2012 12:17 Wedge wrote: Man, what a great lineup.
Such history and memories
Ya. You can make an argument that some people are missing, but everyone on that list is one of the all time great.
Edit: btw, didn't Grrr... technically win his OSL playing random? That would make him the only player ever to win a major tournement in either BW or WoL playing random (or race picking), no? Liquipedia lists him as playing random, but the OSL 10 year aniversary video listed him under random.
I think he did, actually, although he was known for his Protoss. Need a BW history buff to confirm.
It was a neat little ceremony they had, but the setup for the Hall of Fame itself is just as cheap and cheesy as you would expect from KeSPA. The Hall of Fame is just some egregiously blown up stock photos(Grrr's photo looked like a thumbnail that they tried to turn into something 2' tall) with a list of accomplishments underneath. I was hoping they'd hang around after the match to meet with fans, but I don't even know if they stayed to watch. Makes me wonder if they made Grrr fly himself out here for 15 minutes of stuff, lol.
Also got to watch them play HotS before the ceremony with T8. Boxer(who for some reason seems to be making 'T-shirt over dress shirt and tie' into a fashion statement) was making jokes the whole time he played. Bisu and Flash were sitting next to each other(and they spent most of the time talking to each other, even during the ceremony and the Violet memorial stuff). The Dong mostly hung around his team and there was a lot of shoulder rubbing and arms around each other from the older players, with July being particularly bro-like in his suit.
On September 24 2012 18:22 Dansickle wrote: It was a neat little ceremony they had, but the setup for the Hall of Fame itself is just as cheap and cheesy as you would expect from KeSPA. The Hall of Fame is just some egregiously blown up stock photos(Grrr's photo looked like a thumbnail that they tried to turn into something 2' tall) with a list of accomplishments underneath. I was hoping they'd hang around after the match to meet with fans, but I don't even know if they stayed to watch. Makes me wonder if they made Grrr fly himself out here for 15 minutes of stuff, lol.
Grrr was at the Tving OSL final, so I assume he just stayed in Korea till now
On September 24 2012 18:22 Dansickle wrote: It was a neat little ceremony they had, but the setup for the Hall of Fame itself is just as cheap and cheesy as you would expect from KeSPA. The Hall of Fame is just some egregiously blown up stock photos(Grrr's photo looked like a thumbnail that they tried to turn into something 2' tall) with a list of accomplishments underneath. I was hoping they'd hang around after the match to meet with fans, but I don't even know if they stayed to watch. Makes me wonder if they made Grrr fly himself out here for 15 minutes of stuff, lol.
Grrr was at the Tving OSL final, so I assume he just stayed in Korea till now
Great list. <3 Bisu, Nal_rA and Mantoss fighting! Its nice to see these players getting some final recognition yet its sad to see this list at the same time. And JangBi for getting that final Protoss victory. Forever written in stone.
On September 24 2012 18:22 Dansickle wrote: It was a neat little ceremony they had, but the setup for the Hall of Fame itself is just as cheap and cheesy as you would expect from KeSPA. The Hall of Fame is just some egregiously blown up stock photos(Grrr's photo looked like a thumbnail that they tried to turn into something 2' tall) with a list of accomplishments underneath. I was hoping they'd hang around after the match to meet with fans, but I don't even know if they stayed to watch. Makes me wonder if they made Grrr fly himself out here for 15 minutes of stuff, lol.
Grrr was at the Tving OSL final, so I assume he just stayed in Korea till now
Last time I had heard Grr lives in Korea.
Yeah afaik he's a software developer in korea or something similar, but that was from a natgeo documentary that's already a few years old.
Fantastic list, surprising how many Protoss legends there really are. I guess Midas, Sea and EffOrt + Show Spoiler +
and Iris %)
(CJ fanboy inside me still sticking out) could make cases, but it's understandable if they don't make it (extended break periods, lack of innovation/results especially compared to the current representatives.)
EPT
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BoxeR
YellOw
Reach
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SaviOr
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