EPTOn August 15 2011 19:53 wassbix wrote:
SC2 is absolutely a non-factor in Korea right now and honestly I don't see it growing much.
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On August 15 2011 05:34 Wrongspeedy wrote:
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I agree there is no reason for establish Korean BW pro's to switch to Sc2 right now, but that may change by the time the next two expansions come out. The game will be changing too much, and like you said, its still not big compared to BW during its peak in Korea. But its bigger than you act. You make fun of Sc2-IM beds when Flash probably still sleeps in a bunk bed (and I know for a fact he did just a year or 2 ago). You say NASL can't afford plane tickets when they cleary offered teams $2,000 a player as a travel stipend (I think $1,000 for the tickets alone, then they guaranteed the Koreans $1000 in prize money on top of a 1/16 chance to win 40k). There is more too that disagreement than not enough money for plane tickets. I bet you IM and Slayers will both be sending players to NASL. Cause they aren't stupid and they have some of the best players. And on mechanics, why can't they transfer directly over? You can change the hotkeys. You can put overlords on O. You can make `, F1, F2, F3, F4, Z, G all unit control groups if you want. There is no limit to what you can do almost, meaning that if you want to use BW hotkeys you only have get used to making the new units (then actually using them, where skill only comes with experience)
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On August 14 2011 21:28 Ribbon wrote:
World Rank is a bit weird because a diamond leaguer can have 1200 points and a platinum can have 1500 and there's some guesswork in "conversion rates", especially cross-server
I'm sure that, if he really wanted to, he could get in Code A eventually. But not in 3 weeks. His mechanics don't transfer over "automatically". He has to retrain his mind before he can properly utilize his hands.
forgg has been in Grandmasters for a few months without any indication of going pro, for instance. I'm sure there are plenty of active BW players who play it just as a game that is fun and don't mention it.
I would be surprised if any notable BW pros switched. It'd either be old people, or B-teamers who think they could make it big if only X, Y, Z. I don't think Losira played a single televised BW game before switching, nor did MMA, and Puma was a "practice bonjwa" with few results in the booth. No A-teamers are going to switch, especially not established ones like, say, Sea or Fantasy (and whenever I see someone say "Flash in SC2" I'm hurt emotionally and physically). No Letas, either.
My rule of thumb is: "If it's someone I've heard of, he's too big to switch"
. Korean SC2 is WAAAAAAAY smaller than BW to the point where it depends on the foreign scene to survive. EG.Puma and our own Liquid'Hero left Korean teams because they felt it'd be more productive to play on foreign teams. The scene is run by SC2Con, which protects the rights of the players for denying them any form of additional income besides the "meat 3 days a week" you get at Startale and prize money. The only people who switched at either old and worthless or so insignificant they could have been murdered while still BW players and there wouldn't even be a thread about it (Quick! What BW team was Losira on?).
And while it's true that SC2's prospects are somewhat bright, it's basically just a log to grab on to next to the waterfall of failure right now. Why would anyone with even enh success in BW make the switch (seriously, NaDa)? It's not an appealing alternative. It's a second chance. An extra life. It's a game for Flash to play when his hands fall off, and he's just kind of feebly wapping away at the keyboard with his wrist stumps, and we watch in shame as he wets himself and wins a GSL.
I mean, for fuck's sake, two separate SC2 teams are sponsored by Korean chicken joints, and another two SC2 teams are sponsored by other SC2 teams (fOu/FXO and MVP/Complexity). SC2Con is boycotting NASL because they can't afford plane tickets. The highest salary in SC2 is 12.5% what Flash makes (31k to 250k). MVP's beds are so close together that they're basically one uberbed for everyone.
No one's going to switch that anyone would miss. iloveoov's butler, maybe.
Most of them are also friends and stuff. I think Puma was one of Flash's training partners in BW (Artosis called him a "practice bonjwa"). These people know each other.
Edit: I'm not making up the "meat 3 days a week", by the way. Startale actually does that.
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On August 14 2011 17:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:
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I'm in Diamond in NA (top 8 usually) and I looked up his world rank compared to mine. He has a higher world rank than me while in Platinum. I think with his mechanics it is possible to get that good in a short amount of time (you can even pick hotkeys in sc2). But it really depends on how serious he is about it, and how much time he spends practicing. He really does need to spend 8-10 hours everyday playing to get that good. Hopefully he really commits.
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On August 14 2011 15:59 Ribbon wrote:
Well, yeah, I'm sure that after a few months of hard practice he'll be pretty good. It's not that he's a failure as a person or anything. I can see him getting to Code B (top 500 on ladder) in three weeks if he plays full-time with coaching, but it took DongRaeGu like 5 tries to do it. I don't see it happening for Yellow in such a short time.
Unless he tries the fast way and plays in MLG to skip Code A entirely. That'd be weird.
Also,KR Gold != NA Diamond. The top 500 or so people on the KRTW server >>>>>>> The top 500 on NALA (because they're pros playing seriously for Code B), but it doesn't go down the line that much.
Vultures have zero build time and are free. They were exaggerating, dude. Everyone and their dogs knew Yellow would play Zerg. The finals of the last GSL had a Zerg beat another Zerg and win the GSL without dropping a single set. Zerg players just need to defend well, is all.
Which is actually Yellow's other problem. He needs to learn to defend rushes. Pro Zerg have gotten pretty good at getting rushed and taking little-to-no damage. In SC2, bunker rushes are actually standard TvZ. Most Zerg just make 2-4 lings and hold it off with drones so that they only lose mining time and maybe a drone if they're not careful. Yellow needs to learn to defend a bunker rush with 4 drones (because that's how other pro zergs do it). Then he needs to learn to defend a 4 gate. Then how to defend the 3 Void Ray into 2gate Phoenix. Then a sentry-based 6gate. Then BF hellions. Etc etc etc.
Even just standard pressure can kill you if you don't react to it properly. Pro Zergs can, because they've had a year of metagame. If I were playing Yellow in Code A, I'd do a timing attack that has fallen out of favor, like the MC push or the sC 8rax all-in (not "rax on 8". "Make 8 rax with reactors and make rally 15 marines at a time to your opponent'sbase"). The game where sC did that against Losira (free VOD for set 1, the set in question) was pretty awesome (and a good example of why just because you CAN have your army on 1 hotkey doesn't mean you SHOULD. Count how many infestors A-move up to the marines with the lings and die), but can Yellow learn to do tat in three weeks, in addition to all the other shit he has to learn?
I don't think he can.
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On August 14 2011 08:52 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Watch the project A video. He has does not know enough about the game to be good. He never made roaches vs Hellions (Even though he did vs banshees -_-', and then boxer let him win). He doesn't even know what all the units do. He didn't research baneling speed the game he made banelings, then did a game where he made no banelings at all. And even with that he is a higher rated player in 10 or so games than most Diamond NA players. Yeah he is fucking terrible/end sarcasm. Give him time, he played actually pretty smart against BoxeR for someone who didn't know wtf he was doing. His BW mechanics will allow him to macro and micro Sc2 impeccably, and probably better than BoxeR or Nestea, but Sc2 is a much different game strategically (different units, different abilities, different maps, different meta-game) and it also plays much different (with unit pathing, building placement, -everything). Feck they were even playing in 3D. Who plays progames in 3D...??? With 3D Glasses..........
On August 14 2011 05:46 Ribbon wrote:
Nada's been consistently advancing from his group, and made it to the Ro4 back in May (somehow losing to 10% vs Zerg Inca and giving us a painfully one-sided Inca/Nestea finals). I could see him breaking out and winning one, and I would not even be slightly surprised if he won MLG Raleigh.
But Yellow?
Here are some more free VODs
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65859 (Part 1)
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65860 (Part 2)
That's the Boxer-Yellow showmatch. That game was played a week ago. No one expected someone who played the game casually for a month to actually beast even a struggling pro. But Yellow seemed determine to refute the "C- in ICCUP = Masters in SC2" idea by being in gold league and playing like it. Yellow is bad at SC2. He is bafflingly bad. He is literally worse than I am, and I'm terrible. Yeah, it was a showmatch, but Yellow got humiliated so hard the publicity stunt backfired.
Sorry, but no way he's making Code A when players like IMSeed can't. Not in a month.
On August 14 2011 05:20 xMiragex wrote:
NaDa is the best out of those named (in BW in recent times), he hardly practices (by pro standards) AFAIK. He's really consistent in Code S (correct me if im wrong). yellow was doing well at the end of his BW career, specially considering how long ago he started. Yellow is going to be really strong in sc2, a GSL winner? Maybe but i'd give it 3 seasons before making a relatively accurate prediction.
On August 14 2011 04:31 loazis wrote:
No, they won't.
On August 14 2011 02:57 Black[CAT] wrote:
They will, in due time
On August 14 2011 02:42 SenorChang wrote:
By that logic, NaDa, Boxer and July should have won GSL titles with ease already :p
It's a different game yo!
On August 13 2011 23:37 Turenne wrote:
lol yeah, it is.If a no namer like Zergbong can completely dominate SC2 then Yellow will win GSL's with ease. Actually, I think he'll be back with BW when he wants a challenge soon enough.
On August 13 2011 23:05 Fenrax wrote:
wow wow wow
yellow aside, i just found out that zergbong is pwning everyone at SC2? switching from pot to soda pop seems to help. Or is the level of SC2 actually that bad?
wow wow wow
yellow aside, i just found out that zergbong is pwning everyone at SC2? switching from pot to soda pop seems to help. Or is the level of SC2 actually that bad?
lol yeah, it is.If a no namer like Zergbong can completely dominate SC2 then Yellow will win GSL's with ease. Actually, I think he'll be back with BW when he wants a challenge soon enough.
By that logic, NaDa, Boxer and July should have won GSL titles with ease already :p
It's a different game yo!
They will, in due time
No, they won't.
NaDa is the best out of those named (in BW in recent times), he hardly practices (by pro standards) AFAIK. He's really consistent in Code S (correct me if im wrong). yellow was doing well at the end of his BW career, specially considering how long ago he started. Yellow is going to be really strong in sc2, a GSL winner? Maybe but i'd give it 3 seasons before making a relatively accurate prediction.
Nada's been consistently advancing from his group, and made it to the Ro4 back in May (somehow losing to 10% vs Zerg Inca and giving us a painfully one-sided Inca/Nestea finals). I could see him breaking out and winning one, and I would not even be slightly surprised if he won MLG Raleigh.
But Yellow?
Here are some more free VODs
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65859 (Part 1)
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65860 (Part 2)
That's the Boxer-Yellow showmatch. That game was played a week ago. No one expected someone who played the game casually for a month to actually beast even a struggling pro. But Yellow seemed determine to refute the "C- in ICCUP = Masters in SC2" idea by being in gold league and playing like it. Yellow is bad at SC2. He is bafflingly bad. He is literally worse than I am, and I'm terrible. Yeah, it was a showmatch, but Yellow got humiliated so hard the publicity stunt backfired.
Sorry, but no way he's making Code A when players like IMSeed can't. Not in a month.
Watch the project A video. He has does not know enough about the game to be good. He never made roaches vs Hellions (Even though he did vs banshees -_-', and then boxer let him win). He doesn't even know what all the units do. He didn't research baneling speed the game he made banelings, then did a game where he made no banelings at all. And even with that he is a higher rated player in 10 or so games than most Diamond NA players. Yeah he is fucking terrible/end sarcasm. Give him time, he played actually pretty smart against BoxeR for someone who didn't know wtf he was doing. His BW mechanics will allow him to macro and micro Sc2 impeccably, and probably better than BoxeR or Nestea, but Sc2 is a much different game strategically (different units, different abilities, different maps, different meta-game) and it also plays much different (with unit pathing, building placement, -everything). Feck they were even playing in 3D. Who plays progames in 3D...??? With 3D Glasses..........
Well, yeah, I'm sure that after a few months of hard practice he'll be pretty good. It's not that he's a failure as a person or anything. I can see him getting to Code B (top 500 on ladder) in three weeks if he plays full-time with coaching, but it took DongRaeGu like 5 tries to do it. I don't see it happening for Yellow in such a short time.
Unless he tries the fast way and plays in MLG to skip Code A entirely. That'd be weird.
Also,KR Gold != NA Diamond. The top 500 or so people on the KRTW server >>>>>>> The top 500 on NALA (because they're pros playing seriously for Code B), but it doesn't go down the line that much.
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On August 14 2011 12:42 Black[CAT] wrote:
Owh lol, hearing the 3 mentors explaining the race, it kinda shows to me that sc2 is a shallow game that is imbalanced...
Owh lol, hearing the 3 mentors explaining the race, it kinda shows to me that sc2 is a shallow game that is imbalanced...
Vultures have zero build time and are free. They were exaggerating, dude. Everyone and their dogs knew Yellow would play Zerg. The finals of the last GSL had a Zerg beat another Zerg and win the GSL without dropping a single set. Zerg players just need to defend well, is all.
Which is actually Yellow's other problem. He needs to learn to defend rushes. Pro Zerg have gotten pretty good at getting rushed and taking little-to-no damage. In SC2, bunker rushes are actually standard TvZ. Most Zerg just make 2-4 lings and hold it off with drones so that they only lose mining time and maybe a drone if they're not careful. Yellow needs to learn to defend a bunker rush with 4 drones (because that's how other pro zergs do it). Then he needs to learn to defend a 4 gate. Then how to defend the 3 Void Ray into 2gate Phoenix. Then a sentry-based 6gate. Then BF hellions. Etc etc etc.
Even just standard pressure can kill you if you don't react to it properly. Pro Zergs can, because they've had a year of metagame. If I were playing Yellow in Code A, I'd do a timing attack that has fallen out of favor, like the MC push or the sC 8rax all-in (not "rax on 8". "Make 8 rax with reactors and make rally 15 marines at a time to your opponent'sbase"). The game where sC did that against Losira (free VOD for set 1, the set in question) was pretty awesome (and a good example of why just because you CAN have your army on 1 hotkey doesn't mean you SHOULD. Count how many infestors A-move up to the marines with the lings and die), but can Yellow learn to do tat in three weeks, in addition to all the other shit he has to learn?
I don't think he can.
I'm in Diamond in NA (top 8 usually) and I looked up his world rank compared to mine. He has a higher world rank than me while in Platinum
. I think with his mechanics it is possible to get that good in a short amount of time (you can even pick hotkeys in sc2). But it really depends on how serious he is about it, and how much time he spends practicing. He really does need to spend 8-10 hours everyday playing to get that good. Hopefully he really commits.World Rank is a bit weird because a diamond leaguer can have 1200 points and a platinum can have 1500 and there's some guesswork in "conversion rates", especially cross-server
I'm sure that, if he really wanted to, he could get in Code A eventually. But not in 3 weeks. His mechanics don't transfer over "automatically". He has to retrain his mind before he can properly utilize his hands.
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On August 14 2011 17:52 Ryo wrote:
BW progamers do play SC2 in their spare time. They also play FPS games in their spare time. So don't be surprised.
On August 14 2011 17:48 Xkalibert wrote:
Hmmm... Leta is also checking out sc2.
http://twitter.com/#!/qxc0000/status/102655310002536448
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102430985471266816
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102656355537666048
Hmmm... Leta is also checking out sc2.
http://twitter.com/#!/qxc0000/status/102655310002536448
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102430985471266816
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102656355537666048
BW progamers do play SC2 in their spare time. They also play FPS games in their spare time. So don't be surprised.
forgg has been in Grandmasters for a few months without any indication of going pro, for instance. I'm sure there are plenty of active BW players who play it just as a game that is fun and don't mention it.
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On August 14 2011 17:58 Xkalibert wrote:
Playing in their spare time is one thing, going over to "GOM" house and playing with sc2 pro is another. (BW pros contracts ending in august) educated guess and speculation says otherwise
On August 14 2011 17:52 Ryo wrote:
BW progamers do play SC2 in their spare time. They also play FPS games in their spare time. So don't be surprised.
On August 14 2011 17:48 Xkalibert wrote:
Hmmm... Leta is also checking out sc2.
http://twitter.com/#!/qxc0000/status/102655310002536448
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102430985471266816
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102656355537666048
Hmmm... Leta is also checking out sc2.
http://twitter.com/#!/qxc0000/status/102655310002536448
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102430985471266816
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102656355537666048
BW progamers do play SC2 in their spare time. They also play FPS games in their spare time. So don't be surprised.
Playing in their spare time is one thing, going over to "GOM" house and playing with sc2 pro is another. (BW pros contracts ending in august) educated guess and speculation says otherwise
I would be surprised if any notable BW pros switched. It'd either be old people, or B-teamers who think they could make it big if only X, Y, Z. I don't think Losira played a single televised BW game before switching, nor did MMA, and Puma was a "practice bonjwa" with few results in the booth. No A-teamers are going to switch, especially not established ones like, say, Sea or Fantasy (and whenever I see someone say "Flash in SC2" I'm hurt emotionally and physically). No Letas, either.
My rule of thumb is: "If it's someone I've heard of, he's too big to switch"
. Korean SC2 is WAAAAAAAY smaller than BW to the point where it depends on the foreign scene to survive. EG.Puma and our own Liquid'Hero left Korean teams because they felt it'd be more productive to play on foreign teams. The scene is run by SC2Con, which protects the rights of the players for denying them any form of additional income besides the "meat 3 days a week" you get at Startale and prize money. The only people who switched at either old and worthless or so insignificant they could have been murdered while still BW players and there wouldn't even be a thread about it (Quick! What BW team was Losira on?). And while it's true that SC2's prospects are somewhat bright, it's basically just a log to grab on to next to the waterfall of failure right now. Why would anyone with even enh success in BW make the switch (seriously, NaDa)? It's not an appealing alternative. It's a second chance. An extra life. It's a game for Flash to play when his hands fall off, and he's just kind of feebly wapping away at the keyboard with his wrist stumps, and we watch in shame as he wets himself and wins a GSL.
I mean, for fuck's sake, two separate SC2 teams are sponsored by Korean chicken joints, and another two SC2 teams are sponsored by other SC2 teams (fOu/FXO and MVP/Complexity). SC2Con is boycotting NASL because they can't afford plane tickets. The highest salary in SC2 is 12.5% what Flash makes (31k to 250k). MVP's beds are so close together that they're basically one uberbed for everyone.
No one's going to switch that anyone would miss. iloveoov's butler, maybe.
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On August 14 2011 19:14 Dakkas wrote:
Exactly, the fans are too binary. Too many think you're either a BW fan or a SC2 fan. The pros don't care about the stupid semantics of the fans, they are not ignorant enough to completely ignore a game that interests them simply because there are some fans that are too xenophobic.
On August 14 2011 17:52 Ryo wrote:
BW progamers do play SC2 in their spare time. They also play FPS games in their spare time. So don't be surprised.
On August 14 2011 17:48 Xkalibert wrote:
Hmmm... Leta is also checking out sc2.
http://twitter.com/#!/qxc0000/status/102655310002536448
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102430985471266816
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102656355537666048
Hmmm... Leta is also checking out sc2.
http://twitter.com/#!/qxc0000/status/102655310002536448
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102430985471266816
http://twitter.com/#!/moletrap/status/102656355537666048
BW progamers do play SC2 in their spare time. They also play FPS games in their spare time. So don't be surprised.
Exactly, the fans are too binary. Too many think you're either a BW fan or a SC2 fan. The pros don't care about the stupid semantics of the fans, they are not ignorant enough to completely ignore a game that interests them simply because there are some fans that are too xenophobic.
Most of them are also friends and stuff. I think Puma was one of Flash's training partners in BW (Artosis called him a "practice bonjwa"). These people know each other.
Edit: I'm not making up the "meat 3 days a week", by the way. Startale actually does that.
I agree there is no reason for establish Korean BW pro's to switch to Sc2 right now, but that may change by the time the next two expansions come out. The game will be changing too much, and like you said, its still not big compared to BW during its peak in Korea. But its bigger than you act. You make fun of Sc2-IM beds when Flash probably still sleeps in a bunk bed (and I know for a fact he did just a year or 2 ago). You say NASL can't afford plane tickets when they cleary offered teams $2,000 a player as a travel stipend (I think $1,000 for the tickets alone, then they guaranteed the Koreans $1000 in prize money on top of a 1/16 chance to win 40k). There is more too that disagreement than not enough money for plane tickets. I bet you IM and Slayers will both be sending players to NASL. Cause they aren't stupid and they have some of the best players. And on mechanics, why can't they transfer directly over? You can change the hotkeys. You can put overlords on O. You can make `, F1, F2, F3, F4, Z, G all unit control groups if you want. There is no limit to what you can do almost, meaning that if you want to use BW hotkeys you only have get used to making the new units (then actually using them, where skill only comes with experience)
SC2 is absolutely a non-factor in Korea right now and honestly I don't see it growing much.
Actually, with EG's shenanigans about a ginormous announcement, people are speculating that they're hiring former BW players. That's actually a little more likely (supposedly Huk got offered 6 figures by EG), though there's the language thing. I could see a BW B-teamer or low A-teamer joining the better-paying foreign teams. The sub-Hyuk level. No real A-teamers, though. No Seas.
Put it this way, following BW pro scene is pretty niche nowadays, and following SC2 in Korea is like 10x as more niche. Some people don't even know it exists, which is kinda funny/sad given how badly blizzard flopped the PR in Korea.
Not to sound like a jerk, but it's really annoying when people just make very wrong assumption about Korea.
Not to sound like a jerk, but it's really annoying when people just make very wrong assumption about Korea.
Yeah, no one of note in BW is joining a Korean SC2 team in the near future.
How did we get to this point? Wasn't this thread about Yellow?
(((
