As someone who has loved MBCGame forever, it pains me to see them fuck up so much lately. Right on the heels of the Flash controversy which infuriated Korean fans greatly (they were greatly insulted, compared to the foreign response), MBCGame has decided to mess with their finals as well.
The finals between Flash and Jaedong that are to be held on the 23rd is booked for the D Auditorium at MBC (MBCGame's mother company, a national TV station). However, the players will not play in front of a live audience. Instead they will be playing from a "Virtual Studio" separated from the crowd, who will be watching via a screen at the auditorium. MBCGame says this is for the benefit of the players, so they will be able to fully concentrate on the game. Also, some fancy shmancy production techniques will probably be used.
The other wrinkle is that the D Auditorium, probably reserved months ahead following some MSL finals with very poor showings, holds only one thousand people. 300 of these seats will be given to the team, friends, and families of the players, leaving 700 for the fans. However, these 700 seats will be given to the player's fan clubs only. As of now, you can only apply for seats through the two players fan clubs.
*Note: It is almost certain MBCGame booked their finals venue FAR before they had any hints at what the final card could be. MBCGame is being silly here, but they're certainly not stupid enough to intentionally hold Jaedong vs Flash at a 1k venue.
wtf? what's the point of going to see them live then if they're going to be in a seperated room... From a player point of view, awesome. Less nerves if they don't see the massive crowd, but isn't that what makes the finals awesome?
I don't think players will regret playing in front of a huge ammount of people even if it makes them more nervous. The winner will be doubly pleased when he sees all the spectator.
The start of the decline of starcraft 1 this maybe?
wow, only 1000 seat vs OSL that had like 5000 or 7000? and only to fan club ppl.. this plain suck. I can understand the fact that they exclude both player away from the audience for the game but they should just take a dam stadium. ITS FLASH VS JEADONG
Wow that is a royal fuck up. It's already hard to get that hyped up about seeing two dudes in a booth clicking a mouse you can't even see, but the community, the fans, who all still go watch the games still faithfully do this. And yet they still want to separate it even more, the loyal fans, congrats you all get to congregate in a room and cheer at things on a tv screen... exactly what you could've just done at your own house.
On January 20 2010 22:16 StarBrift wrote: .... What to say?
I don't think players will regret playing in front of a huge ammount of people even if it makes them more nervous. The winner will be doubly pleased when he sees all the spectator.
The start of the decline of starcraft 1 this maybe?
no, just the increased idiocy of mbc.
while ogn seems to be on the rise once again picking up korean air as a sponsor for its next osl, mbc look like in deep shit with this move.
This could have been the final that brought a new and better era to the esports scene This final could have been just the thing what the new age people needed
fuck man, I so wanted to go to this. I even told NeverGG to help me get seats
Fucking hell mbc are just terrible, just give your starleauge to gom, they'll do a better job Its good that players have to play in front of a massive crowd, its one more element to sc that makes it more awsome And i like how team mates go and throw up the players after they win MBC epic fail
Ive always kinda defended MBC in all these OGN >>>> MBC lololol situations (I always thought of them as equal competition) but... WHAT IS THIS I DONT EVEN...
Way to piss off fans. When they think about going to the next MSL finals they'll be more likely to think, "ah, fuck it, couldn't go last time"
What about the ceremony afterwards? Holding up the trophy, tears, emotions...will non of that be on the stage??
so disappointing wtf is wrong with that company
On January 20 2010 22:26 MrHoon wrote: This could have been the final that brought a new and better era to the esports scene This final could have been just the thing what the new age people needed
This. Instead they ruin and make people wonder what they are doing and lose faith in the future of eSports.
I imagine it somewhat sucks for the players too, the crowd can either pump you up or make your really nervous, probably not nervous in the case of these two. This would ruin the experience of being in the finals, including the connection with your fans imo.
Netizen They rig the MSL to have the greatest finals ever and piss all over it. Just wow. Netizen This fucking Final could've attracted over 20,000 people. Just what the fuck Netizen MOTHERFUCKERS GONE CRAZY!!! THEY GONE CRAZY Netizen How is this any different from watching it on fucking Afreeca (Afreeca is a Korean version of Livestream)? Netizen I know we joked around saying Movie vs Flash will attract more viewers, but fuck man we were just joking how can you do this Netizen Director detected for massive troll Netizen I saw this shit on starcraft gallery (dcinside) and thought it was a troll, but fuck man Netizen LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 1000 Netizen You have one of the biggest sponsors in the esports scene yet you pull this shit? Netizen This could've been the birth of the new age of Starcraft! THIS COULD'VE BEEN EVERYTHING WE WANTED WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? Netizen Rig a Match -> Throw it away awsum logic mang Netizen hahaha "their personal space" get the fuck out Netizen It's been 2 fucking years since two of the Taek-Bang-LeeSsang had an actual decent final And you will only invite 1000? Netizen LONG LIVE OGN Netizen LOL THEIR CONCEPT FOR THIS IS "BATTLE IN THE COSMIC SPACE" Netizen HAHAHAHAAH 2002 NATE OSL RETURNS Netizen gg Netizen Man I was the biggest MBCgame fan ever... And now this shit makes me want to puke Netizen Jaedong and Flash both said they perform better with a larger audience... Fucking god how could they do this Netizen Jaedong and Flash final should've been on OGN not MBC. I knew some way they would royally fuck it up Netizen So they just want ratings. God MBCgame do you want ratings that bad? Netizen DEATH OF LEESSANG ROHK Netizen LOL KWANRO VS CALM IS BETTER THAN THIS Netizen This is why I hate TV broadcasting. Ratings >>>> Everything. FUck this man Netizen Fuck man atleast OGN tries to do their best. They please their fanbase as much as possible What the fuck is this Netizen LOL IZ DA PRESIDANT COMIN OR SOMTIN CUZ IT SURE SMELLS LIKE COMPLETE SHIT Netizen *sigh*
so on and so forth
MBCgame is doing this for pure viewer ratings. It's so ridiculous
god i hate fan clubs so much. this is a bit off topic but those fan clubs have free license to run shit however they please and even determine who gets to be "VIP" and gain entry to watch high profile games. they real need more of an official presence at the games
playing in a studio will rob this final of its drama
also I really cannot believe they said one reason for this is to remove distractions for the players...THIS IS THE FINALS, of course the pressure is supposed to be on. This is where nerves are tested, balls sized up, legends made...
One would think that MBC had the brain to prep for a big stadium when they saw Flash and Jaedong in the semifinals, but nope, they stuck to their old, stupid plan just because their last final was not that popular. Companies ran by idiots deserve to lose their business to the competition. It's a shame that KESPA fucked GOM even though Blizzard was sponsoring them, another example of supreme stupidity in the SC industry.
Now i think that people just shouldn't watch it at all to show them dummies what's up when they try to ruin something big like this for people. Because this will be the same as watching the VOD anyway
What's with this fully concentrated bullshit? Being able to play in front of a large audience (especially for the finals) is what separates the better players from the others.
I am going to assume this is MBC trying to cater to the foreign audience, trying to convince us that the Koreans are no more important than we are and will get the same conditions.
Netizen They rig the MSL to have the greatest finals ever and piss all over it. Just wow. Netizen This fucking Final could've attracted over 20,000 people. Just what the fuck Netizen MOTHERFUCKERS GONE CRAZY!!! THEY GONE CRAZY Netizen How is this any different from watching it on fucking Afreeca (Afreeca is a Korean version of Livestream)? Netizen I know we joked around saying Movie vs Flash will attract more viewers, but fuck man we were just joking how can you do this Netizen Director detected for massive troll Netizen I saw this shit on starcraft gallery (dcinside) and thought it was a troll, but fuck man Netizen LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 1000 Netizen You have one of the biggest sponsors in the esports scene yet you pull this shit? Netizen This could've been the birth of the new age of Starcraft! THIS COULD'VE BEEN EVERYTHING WE WANTED WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? Netizen Rig a Match -> Throw it away awsum logic mang Netizen hahaha "their personal space" get the fuck out Netizen It's been 2 fucking years since two of the Taek-Bang-LeeSsang had an actual decent final And you will only invite 1000? Netizen LONG LIVE OGN Netizen LOL THEIR CONCEPT FOR THIS IS "BATTLE IN THE COSMIC SPACE" Netizen HAHAHAHAAH 2002 NATE OSL RETURNS Netizen gg Netizen Man I was the biggest MBCgame fan ever... And now this shit makes me want to puke Netizen Jaedong and Flash both said they perform better with a larger audience... Fucking god how could they do this Netizen Jaedong and Flash final should've been on OGN not MBC. I knew some way they would royally fuck it up Netizen So they just want ratings. God MBCgame do you want ratings that bad? Netizen DEATH OF LEESSANG ROHK Netizen LOL KWANRO VS CALM IS BETTER THAN THIS Netizen This is why I hate TV broadcasting. Ratings >>>> Everything. FUck this man Netizen Fuck man atleast OGN tries to do their best. They please their fanbase as much as possible What the fuck is this Netizen LOL IZ DA PRESIDANT COMIN OR SOMTIN CUZ IT SURE SMELLS LIKE COMPLETE SHIT Netizen *sigh*
so on and so forth
MBCgame is doing this for pure viewer ratings. It's so ridiculous
Many thanks
OMG, just remembered the chills I got from fan's cheers and shoutings during OSL's JD vs. Flash. It brings whole new atmosphere, now it will look slightly worse than ordinary PL match. I do not approve of this decision.
Man, MBCGame's community boards are being RAPED by new topics being made every minute, each with a demand for answers to this retarded decision made by MBCGame.
Suck to see this happen.... But I just hope it looks good on stream with all the production techniques and not some ripoff/cheap/fancy smancy stuff : D... and a good working stream
The whole point of a final is the nerves, and who can conquer them. We all saw movie was REALLY nervous in his final. Like REALLY nervous. It affected the game, and it SHOULd affect the game. If i was a korean i would bycott this "live viewing". Just watch it from home, its obviously what mbc want...retards...
Curse of NATE I tell you. Even with two of the best players ever playing in a finals match, somehow it ends up being one of the worst because of this retarded decision.
Now its just another Bo5 match really, just that one of them wins a few thousand bucks and a paper weight.
Seriously what is the point of even attending, are the players going to be in a completely different building? Why don't they just watch it from home then if they won't get to actually see the players. It'll probably be better from the comfort of your own home with some friends. This is ridiculous...and fan club only?
they have a smaller crowd on their finals, compared to the OSL, and their solution is to restrict access even further... fools!
they should make their finals in an open space with free and completely open entrance, make sure there was room for everyone, add something else to attract even more people like a music concert before/afterwards and then make a bucket of money on advertising. Just make it a huge event.
On January 20 2010 23:27 kuyzat wrote: they have a smaller crowd on their finals, compared to the OSL, and their solution is to restrict access even further... fools!
they should make their finals in an open space with free and completely open entrance, make sure there was room for everyone, add something else to attract even more people like a music concert before/afterwards and then make a bucket of money on advertising. Just make it a huge event.
But that would actually look like smart decision and we are talking about MBC here...
Nate must be going "FFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" right now, unless they were the ones who made that decision..
My god, how could they have fucked this up so badly.. I was thinking MSL would have no problem getting a sponsor after being blessed with a Jaedong/Flash finals, but now I won't be surprised if MSL gets cancelled next season due to a lack of sponsors.
they're trying to rig the finals, by putting a gun on the players head behind the scene to make sure they don fuck up the epic match by doing cheesy shit...
looks like korean e-sports is going self-destruct mode...
Just a theory, but if MBC wanted, they could easily have the final in an open space and attract 15,000+ to this match-up. But that would detract from viewers watching their station, etc, and it isn't like they would make any revenue from having the people at the event.
This is their biggest final in forever, so they're trying to get a big ratings spike. The only thing I don't get is why they would put the players in another sector away from the fans. Makes no sense and doesn't seem like it helps ratings/MBC in any way.
On January 20 2010 23:40 Shizuru~ wrote: they're trying to rig the finals, by putting a gun on the players head behind the scene to make sure they don fuck up the epic match by doing cheesy shit...
Lol..... wan bul em fking up once again.... I don't even have pity for wan bul em..
Yeah sure, you would get ridiculously good tv rating, but what I like about watching any final matches is getting goosebumps to see there are tens of thousands of more people like me who are passionate bout sc.... but I dont think thats gonna happen in this MSL final.. when its fking JAEDONG VS FLASH !!! GOD ITS THE FINAL MATCH UP I WAS PRAYING FOR EVERY SUNDAY.
No wonder OSL is 1 bu league.. they care bout both online and offline fans.
Seriously, though.. WTF? I guess it doesn't matter for me since I'm gonna watch a VOD anyway, but this is just a bitch move that completely removes the "epic-ness" of the matchup...
Wow... just wow, MBC should just quit having their share of SC now and give away their Starleague to some other faction. I can see now how OSL is far superior than this crappy MSL. I mean it is the best FINALS YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE IN THIS ERA, and you make it PRIVATE AND have only 1000 viewers there??? Better yet, the finalists are in another SEPARATE ROOM!??! lolwut
On January 21 2010 00:14 On_Slaught wrote: They sure aren't handling perhaps the greatest final in the history of esports well.
With 10 years of experience, you would have expected something much better.
Averatec Intel Classic Season 1 . It was Flash at his prime vs a excellent JaeDong
But I believe this final its quite more interesting. Flash is more dangerous than ever, and JaeDong isnt at his best, but there is an urge for him to retain his supremacy in the scene
OMG Plz die Absolutely ludicrous. A huge part of the finals--the crowd, the energy, THE PLAYERS--have been cut out. I honestly did not think a company could be this retarded.
Is it a wonder why Nal_rA was so happy to join OGN? But seriously.. This is going to be awful; when watching StarCraft vods its exciting to see the crowd full and they cheer like the players are celebrities..
mrHoon or Kona care to translate some netizen comments on this, fuel the rage :< I'm so mad at this, I know it doesn't affect me directly, but denying thousands of people wanting to see this 'live' the chance is -__-
why did it have to happen with flash vs jd finals :<
On January 21 2010 00:50 banana wrote: mrHoon or Kona care to translate some netizen comments on this, fuel the rage :< I'm so mad at this, I know it doesn't affect me directly, but denying thousands of people wanting to see this 'live' the chance is -__-
why did it have to happen with flash vs jd finals :<
oh my god. just for a ratings spike. i wish ppl would livestream the msl finals so they have less viewers in kroea. dont cause a increase in tv ratings, instead, have like 100 people streaming it around to 10,000.
To be honest I don't really care. Not sure why I'm even writing this comment then, but it seems necessary to break up the last 100 comments where people's lives are ending.
On January 21 2010 01:14 Chill wrote: To be honest I don't really care. Not sure why I'm even writing this comment then, but it seems necessary to break up the last 100 comments where people's lives are ending.
I only really care because that element of preforming on the big stage and handling the pressure is gone (as far as we know.) Like someone else said, why not just release reps and cast those like the TSL?
Obviously there's still pressure, but I would say less so. Overall not really a huge deal but it depends on how you look at it.
On January 21 2010 01:14 Chill wrote: To be honest I don't really care. Not sure why I'm even writing this comment then, but it seems necessary to break up the last 100 comments where people's lives are ending.
to us foreigners, it isnt that necassary that it be in a live venue. however, the crowd, the sea of chanting creates such a thrilling environment. its like the proleague finals where the camera pans the crowd and you feel the energy coming offf of them. its the epic factor that we are losing.
I do care that the players wont be playing in front of a live audience, as that kindve stuff is what seperates great players from great practice partners. Pressure plays a huge rule in pro SC, where nearly everyone has amazing execution in the practice house but starts making mistakes on live TV.
On January 21 2010 01:14 Chill wrote: To be honest I don't really care. Not sure why I'm even writing this comment then, but it seems necessary to break up the last 100 comments where people's lives are ending.
Ya honestly I don't think this will change anything for us at all. And neither for the people attending since the fan clubs are the ones that really care about the players, I imagine the rest is mostly attending for the games itself.
On January 21 2010 01:14 Chill wrote: To be honest I don't really care. Not sure why I'm even writing this comment then, but it seems necessary to break up the last 100 comments where people's lives are ending.
This would be the equivalent of having a World Cup (or any sports final) game played on an empty field separated from the crowd because that crowd might disturb the players' concentration... I think a move like this would be ridiculed regardless of the type of competition it was applied to. It's just a stupid move no matter how you look at it.
Let's make next World Cup finals be played in some undisclosed stadium closed to the public so they don't get nervous. People can watch it from some sports bar.
This is so fucking ridiculous. Nerves? Man, that's the point of the finals. Not cracking under the pressure is what makes the different between a great player and a champion. Movie seemed so damn nervous on the finals vs Flash, and it did affect his game, but I bet if he was asked if he could go back in time and have the finals behind closed-doors he will say fuck no.
The whole experience of being in front of thousands of people, feeling the mouse slipping from your hand because of your own sweat, your heart threatening to break free from your chest, the glory you savor when you win, and the desolation that you feel when you lose, coming out hardened after shredding tears in front of your fans... That's the whole goddamn point, you fucking MBC morons!
Seriously, this is the fastest way to drive fans away from your ratings, and this is what we get from one of the most anticipated finals in a long time.
so what happens when the winner's celebration starts. do they stream a VOD of the winning player's team stepping into the studio with champagne and give the trophy to the player in an empty room? lol and i guess they can skimp on confetti costs because its a much smaller studio. and the winner doesn't have to get "nervous" (lol) while delivering his victory speech. so many of the epic factors are gone now.
You know it's old when they're playing on Space Odyssey.
you know it's old when they go gas before gate x_x
I think I want to see what MBC does with this before criticizing them too harshly. Maybe they'll do something awesome, but the chances of that are probably slim given their current record of screwing things up.
Am I the only one who feels it's retarded that they are putting the two most "fan-related stress"-free players in a stress-free finals while on the other hand the OGN organizers let a first-time royal roader be nearly eaten alive by a howling mob?
tl;dr both JD and Flash are already resilient to stress enough, they already don't notice if somebody is watching them play and don't need anything to be done about that.
why would anyone fucking go to the auditorium since its just the same seeing anywhere else.. -_-
oh fuck you MBC.
who cares about the players' being fully concentrated.. its about dealing with the PRESSURE of having THOUSANDS watching you PLAY. if you even lose the damn concentration it means that you do not cut it to be the CHAMPION.
On January 20 2010 22:29 Flicky wrote: This is so ridiculous... 700 fans can go? I was expecting 10,000 people to be queuing around the block to see this =/
In hindsight, just as many people will be on IRC, just as many on vent... this barely affects me at all.
Sucks for the Koreans but I don't really care that much.
On January 20 2010 22:29 Flicky wrote: This is so ridiculous... 700 fans can go? I was expecting 10,000 people to be queuing around the block to see this =/
In hindsight, just as many people will be on IRC, just as many on vent... this barely affects me at all.
Sucks for the Koreans but I don't really care that much.
I'm going to try and avoid exploding in delirious rage. MBC now joins the ranks of evil, evil companies to me. They know how epic these finals would have been. They know how many people would show up, and how much intensity the massive crowd would have brought to the games. They know neither Flash nor Jaedong are affected by playing in front of a massive crowd - they're fucking used to it.
But they decide to throw it away for cheaper production costs and a massive spike in ratings.
That, my friends, is evil.
Those responsible for the financial crisis? They're just greedy fucking pigs. Hitler? He was crazy. This, denying fans of an epic finals event for a spike in a number, is evil.
On January 20 2010 22:29 Flicky wrote: This is so ridiculous... 700 fans can go? I was expecting 10,000 people to be queuing around the block to see this =/
In hindsight, just as many people will be on IRC, just as many on vent... this barely affects me at all.
Sucks for the Koreans but I don't really care that much.
then you don't understand anything
You'd better start talking because that's an asshat of a comment.
On January 21 2010 02:03 tirentu wrote: I'm going to try and avoid exploding in delirious rage. MBC now joins the ranks of evil, evil companies to me. They know how epic these finals would have been. They know how many people would show up, and how much intensity the massive crowd would have brought to the games. They know neither Flash nor Jaedong are affected by playing in front of a massive crowd - they're fucking used to it.
But they decide to throw it away for cheaper production costs and a massive spike in ratings.
That, my friends, is evil.
Those responsible for the financial crisis? They're just greedy fucking pigs. Hitler? He was crazy. This, denying fans of an epic finals event for a spike in a number, is evil.
I fully endorse this post and comment. The best comment of this thread yet!
On January 20 2010 22:29 Flicky wrote: This is so ridiculous... 700 fans can go? I was expecting 10,000 people to be queuing around the block to see this =/
In hindsight, just as many people will be on IRC, just as many on vent... this barely affects me at all.
Sucks for the Koreans but I don't really care that much.
then you don't understand anything
You'd better start talking because that's an asshat of a comment.
I would assume he was probably referring to the implications that this decision along with several other recent MBC decisions have on the reputation of the league and the sport as a whole...
It's only Flash vs Jaedong. It's not like those are popular players or anything. Certainly not two players the fanbase has been begging to see play a finals for years now.
And what are we talking about? It's not as if fan interaction is an important part of sports legitimacy, either. Starcraft games are just as exciting without raving commentators or a screaming crowd. You can easily notice this by watching a game such as Yellow vs Bisu on HBR first normally, and then muted. Your emotions will be exactly the same both times!
/signing off as a starcraft fan who only cares so deeply about the Korean SC scene because it makes an amazing game into an amazing spectator sport... usually.
if i were a korean planning to attend the finals i'd be pissed, but hardly anything will be different for me
there'll be a lot less people in the crowd than there were for Flash vs Movie, but I don't watch to see the people in the crowd, I watch to see the games.
Meh, the whole 100% concentration thing is just the lamest excuse they could come up with for not reacting fast enough not just since they knew it would be JD vs Flash, but since a round before when the chances were high.
This is a complete show of incompetence and lack of capacity to plan ahead, or even worse, a demonstration of having given up on their starleague and fans.
I've always tried to defend the MSL as the alternative trying to break thru against the "mainstream money-hogging" OSL, but this is the kind of shit that makes me to stop caring about those fuckers.
It does affect us in the way that if we watched the super bowl on tv, and it was played in an empty stadium, the atmosphere would be much less epic and exciting. There will be no "roar" from a crowd of thousands when something crazy happens.
On January 21 2010 03:05 MuffinDude wrote: Won't really affect us, but stupid nonetheless.
Well it will be surely affecting me because I want to watch a live starleague final and not some random "two current best players" event.
What about they just go back tooniverse studios, and as for MBC, what about old GAME-Q office ? That way they won't have to rent any big place anymore.
They had a lot of trouble getting a sponsor, right? This was probably all NATE could afford and was decided at the start of the tournament. You need more than just a couple weeks to put on a show in a stadium, especially if there are budget restrictions. Way way way more work and prep goes in to event production than most of you guys seem to realize.
On January 20 2010 23:03 konadora wrote: Man, MBCGame's community boards are being RAPED by new topics being made every minute, each with a demand for answers to this retarded decision made by MBCGame.
This isn't even a good business decision. Sure they'll get a short-term boost in ratings b/c fans who'll go to the live games will also watch it on tv, but they are doing nothing to promote or expand the sport outside of that fan-base. They are making esports look small and shabby (just like MBC executives' hearts).
This tells me that MBC have no real commitment into developing esports and looking to make it an enduring success. They just want to cash in right now and not risk making a long-term investment in something they don't believe in. Fucking bastard dickhead loser dumbasses.
On January 21 2010 01:38 SuperJongMan wrote: MBC is gonna used rigged copies of SC like they did with w3. Everything about this MSL is rigged. RIGGED! CONSPIRACY!
omg you're probably right, they really are following pro wrestling
On January 20 2010 23:03 konadora wrote: Man, MBCGame's community boards are being RAPED by new topics being made every minute, each with a demand for answers to this retarded decision made by MBCGame.
AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!! I think it should be possible to find a bigger venue. AND if they put the vods away from youtube, we ALL should boycott their tournament!!!!!!
1 vs. 2 in KeSPA, two of the perhaps most loved players, the two best players of their respective race, and than it's just like a chess game, where no sound is allowed, COME ON!!
On January 20 2010 23:03 konadora wrote: Man, MBCGame's community boards are being RAPED by new topics being made every minute, each with a demand for answers to this retarded decision made by MBCGame.
On January 20 2010 22:15 emucxg wrote: I heard that the "Virtual Studio" is known of 3D-technology
Well i hope they have something special to show be it Jaedong vs Flash in 3D or some state of the art technology or else there is no excuse in blowing the bigest final in SC history .
On January 21 2010 03:36 HonestTea wrote: I guess MBC doesn't even have enough money for a proper finals. How sad.
Exactly. Everyone is raging out that they didn't rent out a stadium and not charge an entry fee. What do you want them to do? They don't have money and they can't get money (we saw what happened when they charged for a final) so this is the only option.
Sure the pizazz of a final-worthy crowd is nice, but I honestly wouldn't care if they played from their practice houses. I want to watch Flash vs. Jaedong, not a bunch of people waving flags around.
WHAT THE FUCK? This is ridiculous. Jaedong v.s. Flash is pretty much like the modern era of Boxer v.s. Yellow. No other matchup, not even Bisu v.s. Stork, or Stork v.s. Flash, would be able to incite as much hype.
And now it is held in a place that can hold only 1000 people, not even in front of live audience, AND if you want to attend you, you are forced to be either in Flash camp or Jaedong camp? To add insult to injury, to do this just when Starcraft seems to be decreasing in popularity and in great need of a popularity boost.
Why did MBC even bother with the Flash message to hype things up? I think MBC may be getting very desperate here...Something must be happening behind the scenes.
I'm not gonna get too mad about this since it seems MBC is low on cash. I am disappointed, because "a bunch of people waving flags around" is what elevates a final from everything else. I'm still not upset about the Flash pop-up. We'll just have to see how it goes, hopefully they go for the gusto and put both players in front of green screens so that Jaedong looks like he's in some Zerg building and Flash is in a cattlebruiser.
On January 21 2010 04:22 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I'm not gonna get too mad about this since it seems MBC is low on cash. I am disappointed, because "a bunch of people waving flags around" is what elevates a final from everything else. I'm still not upset about the Flash pop-up. We'll just have to see how it goes, hopefully they go for the gusto and put both players in front of green screens so that Jaedong looks like he's in some Zerg building and Flash is in a cattlebruiser.
Sorry man, but I have to say, that seems to me like it is cheesy as fuck and I hope to god they don't do something like that. I like to think of sc as an e-sport and not like e-proffesional wrestling
Ugh, way to make a complete joke of the finals. Like fucking 80% of the energy in the finals come from the presence of the massive, cheering crowd. Putting the players in a different room? Wtf. I can't imagine how it's gonna be for the winner, just coming out of his booth all triumphant only to be greeted by....what, MBC staff members?
On January 21 2010 03:36 HonestTea wrote: I guess MBC doesn't even have enough money for a proper finals. How sad.
Exactly. Everyone is raging out that they didn't rent out a stadium and not charge an entry fee. What do you want them to do? They don't have money and they can't get money (we saw what happened when they charged for a final) so this is the only option.
BTW, I am very curious about this one. Which final was it and what exactly was the result?
I think people may be willing to pay for a Jaedong v.s. Flash final lol, but that wouldn't help Starcraft's popularity in the long term, definitely not in this economy.
On January 21 2010 04:09 seppolevne wrote: Sure the pizazz of a final-worthy crowd is nice, but I honestly wouldn't care if they played from their practice houses. I want to watch Flash vs. Jaedong, not a bunch of people waving flags around.
The people waving a bunch of flags around is part of what makes it an event. Without the venue and without the spectacle, it might as well be a game on Battle.net or a replay that you sit by yourself and watch. When it comes to competitions, the atmosphere is most certainly one of the integral elements that makes the difference between an emotional experience and an academic study. If they decided to have the Red Sox and Yankees play out the World Series in a separate stadium without a crowd, it would still be the Red Sox vs. the Yankees, but it wouldn't differentiate the World Series from a regular season game. And if they did decide to do that, baseball would lose a tremendous amount of fans and the sport itself would subsequently suffer, adversely affecting the fans that it didn't lose.
MBC has been catching enough flak from the fans with all the ridiculous stunts they've been pulling from the Flash overlay to the accusations of rigging the tournament. This is something they really don't need and the stupidity in it all is that they knew that it would upset people and they went along with it anyway. Sure, in the short term, it might keep them out of the red, but they need to look a little bit further down the road than that. They would be losing a lot of fan support, their reputation will suffer, it will be harder to find a good sponsor to support them, and in the end they'll be losing more ground to their competition. This doesn't help MBC, it does not help the fans, and it doesn't help the sport.
Having a smaller venue for the final due to lack of finances is fine in itself, but what's up with having the players play the game in a separate room and restricting the seats to people that are members of the players fan clubs rather than opening them up to the public? It's these decisions that really make no sense to me...
Yeah, no money so small venue....fine, can live with that. But for the love of god don't remove the players from the crowd. It's seriously the most fundamental mistake they could possibly make.
kespa with the random terrible decision, that's a shocker *insert sarcasm tone here*
I'd love to see that play in north america. "Oh by the way the Super Bowl will be played in an isolated place and you can come watch it on monitors outside the stadium".
Well, if you look at things in retrospect, MBC and OGN don't really make all that much profit from what they do. Commercial breaks seem to be rather short. They probably have to pay royalty or fees to Kespa and participating progaming teams for their work. Even a major tournament has only one sponsor that is willing to spend only limited amount of money. Even in a final, there aren't any commercial products being sold on the scene to generate extra revenue (T-shirts and food would be nice), and I do not remembering seeing any commercial banners/boards in noticeable areas that would serve as extra advertisement revenue.
To top things off, Starcraft games aren't always being played. To fill the rest of the airtime, they do reruns and other far less popular competitive games. A lot of recent leagues are all pretty disappointing, producing uninspiring games. They don't even charge for tickets.
I doubt OGN and MBC are flowing in money. There must be a lot of crap going on behind the scene.
On January 20 2010 22:15 emucxg wrote: I heard that the "Virtual Studio" is known of 3D-technology
Well i hope they have something special to show be it Jaedong vs Flash in 3D or some state of the art technology or else there is no excuse in blowing the bigest final in SC history .
maybe they can create a computer generated crowd :O
On January 21 2010 04:56 n.DieJokes wrote: holy fuck these games are going to be so so good. Haven't progamers always been saying they play a thousand times better during practice
No practice game could ever be as epic as one played in front of thousands of fans on a grand stage. Maybe the games will be cleaner mechanically speaking but so much of the magic will be lost...
i agree that its sad but i think its more nice that final is going to happend... before season it seemed really bad for msl... and if this is way how to keep msl alive for now its ok... just they are now low on cash like everybody but maybe later they will get better and it will be big
You want StarCraft to be even more far away from being recognized as a real, competitive sport?
God damn there's so much wrong with this, hang the fuckers who decided on this.
On January 21 2010 04:56 n.DieJokes wrote: holy fuck these games are going to be so so good. Haven't progamers always been saying they play a thousand times better during practice
Practice is still very very different
most of the "bad play" is generated by it being the finals and not a worthless practice game, not the crowd.
edit: And what the fuck is the rationale behind doing this when its the most awaited match in YEARS? If you want to test some useless shit do it when there's a match that nobody cares about like mumyung vs pokju ffs.
It's worth mentioning that the pressure of playing in front of a huge audience for a big title is part of what makes finals great. It's all supposed to be on the line and how well the players keep their cool is a big component. So disappointing from every angle.
God damn im so fucking furious about this, how the fuck can you do something like this
I enjoy finals mostly because of not only the high level of game, but also because of the fact that I can see the players live struggling against their nerves and its epic to see them try their best while thousands of people are watching right there "in front of them".
Korean fanclubs should boycott mbcgame and not arrive at the finals imo., better yet burn the whole damn place.
On January 21 2010 04:56 n.DieJokes wrote: holy fuck these games are going to be so so good. Haven't progamers always been saying they play a thousand times better during practice
Practice is still very very different
most of the "bad play" is generated by it being the finals and not a worthless practice game, not the crowd.
edit: And what the fuck is the rationale behind doing this when its the most awaited match in YEARS? If you want to test some useless shit do it when there's a match that nobody cares about like mumyung vs pokju ffs.
You, and others who feel similarly, should boycott MBCGame all together and not watch the MSL Finals. It looks like you're calling something shyt and eating it at the same time.
On January 21 2010 05:00 thopol wrote: It's worth mentioning that the pressure of playing in front of a huge audience for a big title is part of what makes finals great. It's all supposed to be on the line and how well the players keep their cool is a big component. So disappointing from every angle.
EDIT: How pissed are Korean netizens?
As pissed as a swarm of teenage girls in Columbus, Ohio, who just found out that the Jonas Brothers concert at the Nationwide Arena got cancelled (the first big-name local concert in the last 16 years and 7 months). Judy Pinkerman, who had gotten good grades for the past three months just so her hard-working parents would buy her tickets, (even cheating on her Spanish test to do so) is especially enraged. She looks at her hand-made Nick Jonas sign, with extra glitter, thinking about all those hours spent wrestling with Elmer's glue, as the red mist descends upon her...
On January 21 2010 04:58 Puosu wrote: FUCK YOU MBCGAME
You want StarCraft to be even more far away from being recognized as a real, competitive sport?
God damn there's so much wrong with this, hang the fuckers who decided on this.
On January 21 2010 04:56 n.DieJokes wrote: holy fuck these games are going to be so so good. Haven't progamers always been saying they play a thousand times better during practice
Practice is still very very different
most of the "bad play" is generated by it being the finals and not a worthless practice game, not the crowd.
edit: And what the fuck is the rationale behind doing this when its the most awaited match in YEARS? If you want to test some useless shit do it when there's a match that nobody cares about like mumyung vs pokju ffs.
You, and others who feel similarly, should boycott MBCGame all together and not watch the MSL Finals. It looks like you're calling something shyt and eating it at the same time.
But when the shit is covered on the best god damn candies in the world you just cant resists the temptation.
On January 21 2010 05:00 thopol wrote: It's worth mentioning that the pressure of playing in front of a huge audience for a big title is part of what makes finals great. It's all supposed to be on the line and how well the players keep their cool is a big component. So disappointing from every angle.
EDIT: How pissed are Korean netizens?
As pissed as a swarm of teenage girls in Columbus, Ohio, who just found out that the Jonas Brothers concert at the Nationwide Arena got cancelled (the first big-name local concert in the last 16 years and 7 months). Judy Pinkerman, who had gotten good grades for the past three months just so her hard-working parents would buy her tickets, (even cheating on her Spanish test to do so) is especially enraged. She looks at her hand-made Nick Jonas sign, with extra glitter, thinking about all those hours spent wrestling with Elmer's glue, as the red mist descends upon her...
BTW, the only way that this would be justified is if the "Virtual Studio" technology is so amazing that marines and zerglings pop out of the screen and engage in combat on my lap, while a medic gives me a sponge bath, lurkers burrow into my anus, Jaedong tries to multi around my scrotum and the Overmind is whispering "NOT ENOUGH VESPENE GAS" in my ear.
I'm disappointed - actually I was already wary when I saw "virtual studio" on the TL calender, now I find out the full story.
The biggest disappointment for me is removing transparency. After adding metal detectors and such to show that the "sport" was not subject to manipulation - having something that's separated from the public is a major disappointment. While fans could "trust" MBC, it shouldn't come back to that. Every real sporting contest is broadcast live on some channel, and held in front of a live audience - especially finals!
On January 21 2010 05:13 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Can someone please translate the best korean netizen comments
Netizen 1 First!
Netizen 2 First!!
Netizen 3 ↑ lol loser
Netizen 4 ↑ lol ban
Netizen 5 This is a real travesty. GOOD JOB MBC epic fail
Netizen 6 Let's boycot this shit
Netizen 7 I didn't think that they could actually fuck up the awesomeness that is Flash vs Jaedong, but Impossible is Nothing. Truly inspirational.
Netizen 8 Flash bunkering 3-0 gogogo
Netizen 9 Dammit me and my girlfriend were going to have sex along with the live broadcast. Now it won't feel the same. WAI MBC, MY DICK IS NOT HARD ANYMORE
Netizen 10 MrHoon, thisis your mother.Stop writin here and go to sleep.
Netizen 11 By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.
But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two hundred and twenty-one years since a band of patriots signed that document right here in Philadelphia, that is where perfection begins.
On January 21 2010 03:36 HonestTea wrote: I guess MBC doesn't even have enough money for a proper finals. How sad.
Exactly. Everyone is raging out that they didn't rent out a stadium and not charge an entry fee. What do you want them to do? They don't have money and they can't get money (we saw what happened when they charged for a final) so this is the only option.
They have the auditorium, right? There's got to be some sort of stage they can jury-rig. People would, I think, be upset but understanding if it's just a case of "sorry not enough money". What's irritating people is the bit about separating the players and the audience. Look, fans would go watch these guys play if they were playing on computers from 1992 set up at a single folding table put on a plywood stage with no decoration and displayed on a single home-style projector you can barely see. The "virtual" thing may spiffy it up, but is less live, less "real". It's the most guaranteed way to screw up the presentation there is.
On January 21 2010 04:53 DonBotwin wrote: kespa with the random terrible decision, that's a shocker *insert sarcasm tone here*
I'd love to see that play in north america. "Oh by the way the Super Bowl will be played in an isolated place and you can come watch it on monitors outside the stadium".
LOL have you seen texas stadium? You can't see the field for how big the jumbotron is.
I laugh at all the people who said that the MSL did a better job at seeding (to bring us a Jaedong v. Flash finals) than OSL did.
Whether or not that is true, the seeding and this decision comes part and parcel. You approve of a company's decision to mess with official seeding rules and you'll find yourself facing a company that decidedly forgoes professionalism for the sake of profits and you end up with a farce of a competition.
All I can do is laugh at your inability of understanding a different point of view than yours. Everyone is bashing the decision (and the MSL orga) without even trying to understand it nor considering it from another point of view, that's just plain sad.
And it's not like this decision will have any sort of influence on your life, 99,99% of you weren't planning to watch it live so stop exagerating everything.
I think this is all blizzard's fault. They should change the way the ZvZ matchup works, because currently the ZvZ matchup is very boring to watch. Last season we got 2 ZvZ's in the finals and both of them weren't as entertaining to watch because, well, they we're zvz. Blizzard should move the focus in ZvZ from ling/muta/scource micro into more macro oriented play.
A good example of this is Yellow Vs GGplay
If every ZvZ game is similar to this one, we would of had a much larger turnup for the Kwanro vs Calm games and also the OSL finals, and none of this garbage would be happening right now.
USER BANNED FOR EITHER STUPID UNEDUCATED POST OR TROLLING
On January 21 2010 06:18 TeWy wrote: All I can do is laugh at your inability of understanding a different point of view than yours. Everyone is bashing the decision (and the MSL orga) without even trying to understand it nor considering it from another point of view, that's just plain sad.
And it's not like this decision will have any sort of influence on your life, 99,99% of you weren't planning to watch it live so stop exagerating everything.
No, I think everyone understands MBC only does this so they lose as little money as possible. But this is only a short term solution and it might even hurt them in the long run, so it's a very strange choice to say the least.
I think this is all blizzard's fault. They should change the way the ZvZ matchup works, because currently the ZvZ matchup is very boring to watch. Last season we got 2 ZvZ's in the finals and both of them weren't as entertaining to watch because, well, they we're zvz. Blizzard should move the focus in ZvZ from ling/muta/scource micro into more macro oriented play.
If every ZvZ game is similar to this one, we would of had a much larger turnup for the Kwanro vs Calm games and also the OSL finals, and none of this garbage would be happening right now.
On January 21 2010 05:12 HonestTea wrote: BTW, the only way that this would be justified is if the "Virtual Studio" technology is so amazing that marines and zerglings pop out of the screen and engage in combat on my lap, while a medic gives me a sponge bath, lurkers burrow into my anus, Jaedong tries to multi around my scrotum and the Overmind is whispering "NOT ENOUGH VESPENE GAS" in my ear.
wait you want lurkers to burrow in your ass and jaedong multitasking around your scrotum?
On January 21 2010 06:18 Lucid90 wrote: I think this is all blizzard's fault. They should change the way the ZvZ matchup works, because currently the ZvZ matchup is very boring to watch. Last season we got 2 ZvZ's in the finals and both of them weren't as entertaining to watch because, well, they we're zvz. Blizzard should move the focus in ZvZ from ling/muta/scource micro into more macro oriented play.
If every ZvZ game is similar to this one, we would of had a much larger turnup for the Kwanro vs Calm games and also the OSL finals, and none of this garbage would be happening right now.
On January 21 2010 07:00 psion0011 wrote: I don't know, I can't say I'm that angry, we're watching streams and vods anyways. Sure would suck to be a korean fan right now though.
On January 21 2010 07:09 dukethegold wrote: Do you guys remember Jaedong v.s. Flash in the OSL?
It was just a BO3 and it was in the round of 8.
The matches lasted extraordinarily short.
The studio was only big enough for couple hundred people.
Yet the fans screams like crazy during the match. You can feel the vibration of energy.
The excitement is infectious. It glues your eyes to the screen.
Imagine that
Multiplied by ten.
THAT WAS WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN.
This is what we got.
Thing is, MBC doesn't get money even if they rent out a 20,000 seat stadium. Yeah, they could make them pay money, but then people would get pissed in Korea that they had to pay money while all matches are usually free.
It's really, really lame, and I dislike the result, but MBC just doesn't have enough money right now. MSL started late because it couldn't find a sponsor, they don't have a load of money, and they want people to watch their channel probably instead of showing up for free.
On January 21 2010 06:18 Lucid90 wrote: I think this is all blizzard's fault. They should change the way the ZvZ matchup works, because currently the ZvZ matchup is very boring to watch. Last season we got 2 ZvZ's in the finals and both of them weren't as entertaining to watch because, well, they we're zvz. Blizzard should move the focus in ZvZ from ling/muta/scource micro into more macro oriented play.
If every ZvZ game is similar to this one, we would of had a much larger turnup for the Kwanro vs Calm games and also the OSL finals, and none of this garbage would be happening right now.
USER BANNED FOR EITHER STUPID UNEDUCATED POST OR TROLLING
Aww... I'm not sure if this was egregiously stupid or trolling. It might have been a sarcastic joke or something. I dunno what other posts this guy made or whatever; I can't second guess the mods, but I think he may have a point. I just think this is in the wrong thread and he may have meant to put it in the new proleague map thread where people are talking about how two zerg maps were removed in favor of some maps that might be worse for zerg because most teams are sending out 2 zergs and all the zvz are bad for ratings. Tons of people complained about how the last MSL final was underwhelming because ZvZ is not too epic, and the OP for the game reflected this. It may well have contributed to the trouble the MSL had in securing a sponsor for this season, which may well have contributed to the poor venue, so the post is relevant here.
I don't think talking about Blizzard is insane. Sure, if they changed the game now it would probably make things worse. But do any of us really think that Blizzard intended for hive tech to never appear in games between good players? Last time I saw it in a pro game was Great vs. Jaedong and Great didn't get anywhere with it. ZvZ is less exciting not because of zerg players sucking or maps or kespa rules but because the game is designed in a way that makes zvz hive tech strategies inferior to more aggressive ones. I.E. Blizzard shouldn't be given immunity, IMO. Personally, I think that it is obvious that Blizzard has done better than any other RTS maker and that any "fix" would make things worse.
When a PvZ game starts up, it could last 4 minutes or 80 minutes. Same with TvT. At the pro level, every matchup other than ZvZ has a wider range of ways it could play out than a ZvZ. ZvZ is getting better in that we see great players overcoming what were believed to be build order auto-losses. But still, small mistakes or even bad luck can turn a ZvZ game quicker than in other matchups, and/so they don't last long. I think this is why many foreigner zergs, like Ret, choose to go TvZ. This Lucid90 guy is probably right that if ZvZs were more epic that more people would be excited about them. I don't wish that every game was like that but it would be cool if it were a possibility.
There doesn't seem to be much that can be done about it. You could make the maps bigger but that would ruin the minimap. You could put dark swarms over the mineral lines to protect drones from mutas, but zergs would probably just win with lings. You could then put a bunch of obstacles between the bases, like zig zagging routes or neutral buildings, but that and all the previously mentioned map ideas would fuck up the other matchups royally. You could have a different map pool for each matchup, but that would feel awfully inauthentic, require too much practice, and cause many other problems. And the resulting ZvZs might look different but might end up being long and boring instead of exciting but short.
In any case, I hope that SC2 doesn't have a matchup where, at high level play, certain units have such a low chance of appearing as do ultras in ZvZ.
The reality: MBC game is a sub-division of MBC broadcasting corp (like MBC seoul, MBC gwang ju, MBC dae gu etc..) so guys in the top level only provide MBC game barely enough money to survive the game channel competition (so basically MBC vs OGN)
For OGN's case, it was owned by OnMedia. So from the name of the corp, you probably get how OnMedia made their revenue: through tv rating. So they basically invest lots of money into OGN because how they made their money whereas MBC has plenty other ways to generate revenue.
Now OGN is owned by CJ Media but that's even better because CJ is one motherfu*king rich company.
I dunno if you get my point, but we can't really blame MBC game for messing up like this.
The thing is, the funding of a team or the league is completely reliant on the generosity of the sponsor. The leagues don't seem to attract enough commercials to profit by itself and the teams don't have any source of revenue except from the sponsor. None of the factions directly associated with the game determine how much money they make. It almost entirely depends on the affiliates and what their estimation of how much starcraft is worth to them, as an advertisement campaign.
I am not sure what other sources of revenue can there be to e-sport. Perhaps it is time for people to find a solution. I think a hotdog stand would be a nice start.
I think the point of the ZvZ post was that ZvZ ruined the last finals which means MBC is bleeding green through their nose and had to resort to this. Which is a pretty bad hypothesis because people didn't watch it because 3/4 players were mediocre not because they were ZvZ's but I don't think he should be banned...
The only thing that bothers me about this is that it is unfair for the years and years of players who didn't climb to the top because of nerves or faltered at the top because of them. Now you have the two most consistent, nerve proof gamers ever and think they need to be removed from the crowd to play well B/S.
I do think this will result in much much cleaner play and might get mbc what they want, Great games and great ratings at a very low price.
Also I have not ever watched a ZvZ finals or semifinal in my years of starcraft. I only watch zvz in the group stages or in proleague. Even though I think zvz is exciting , I don't think a bo3 or bo5 zvz is EVER EXCITING.
...now maybe this is uncouth, or whatever, but I'm starting to hope that this bombs. I hope this is an embarrassment and that no sponsor can be found for the next MSL. I hope MBCHero can have nothing bad happen to it. Then I hope GOM, who we know can find sponsors and hold final matches with actual progamers in attendance, is allowed by Kespa to be the number 2 starleague by Kespa, with all 12 teams attending. Then I hope, of course, that our beloved Plott gets his job back, with Artosis as co-caster. mmm I love dreams
Another point that I have been wondering is how GOM TV leagues survived in this already saturated and limited Korean e-sport field. From what I heard, it was actually growing in popularity before it was canceled due to Kespa. What did it do that made it right?
On January 21 2010 07:36 dukethegold wrote: Another point that I have been wondering is how GOM TV leagues survived in this already saturated and limited Korean e-sport field. From what I heard, it was actually growing in popularity before it was canceled due to Kespa. What did it do that made it right?
I think part of it was that good players always made the final 2: Stork vs. Flash was an epic final, 1-0, 1-2, 3-2, swinging back and forth with Flash killing carriers on Katrina with the build that made him famous. Then Flash vs. Jaedong, the dream final, and GOM promoted it really well. The games sucked, but that wasn't GOM's fault, the studio was small but packed with people lined up all over the place. Tasteless was saying that more people were outside of the venue trying to get in than inside, but screens were set up outside to entertain people in the overflow area. Season 2 was Jangbi vs. Bisu, right after they had met in the MSL (similar to how Flash vs. Stork met while they were already slated to play in the OSL final). Now Jangbi got blown out in the MSL right before, so there was less hype for this one, but it was still a dragon vs. a dragon. Then Season 3, you had Flash vs. Iris. Not the best matchup, but Iris had just beat a hot Effort. In every instance, the finals was between two players who had previously qualified for a starleague final. Flash in the GSI was the only player who hadn't yet played in a final.
On January 21 2010 07:32 dcberkeley wrote: I think the point of the ZvZ post was that ZvZ ruined the last finals which means MBC is bleeding green through their nose and had to resort to this. Which is a pretty bad hypothesis because people didn't watch it because 3/4 players were mediocre not because they were ZvZ's but I don't think he should be banned...
I think it was both the ZvZ and the quality of players. The OSL final of Jaedong vs. Luxury was a little underwhelming for an OSL final because of the matchup. But it was still better than the MSL because of the general higher quality of the OSL as well as the higher quality of players. Well, by higher quality I mean that Lux and JD had more previous big wins. I'd take Calm over Luxury at this point in time, no question. But JD and Lux > Calm and Kwanro, also no question.
On January 21 2010 07:32 dcberkeley wrote: I think the point of the ZvZ post was that ZvZ ruined the last finals which means MBC is bleeding green through their nose and had to resort to this. Which is a pretty bad hypothesis because people didn't watch it because 3/4 players were mediocre not because they were ZvZ's but I don't think he should be banned...
I think it was both the ZvZ and the quality of players. The OSL final of Jaedong vs. Luxury was a little underwhelming for an OSL final because of the matchup. But it was still better than the MSL because of the general higher quality of the OSL as well as the higher quality of players. Well, by higher quality I mean that Lux and JD had more previous big wins. I'd take Calm over Luxury at this point in time, no question. But JD and Lux > Calm and Kwanro, also no question.
You mean Jaedong v.s. Yarnc. The one side rape one.
But tbh, we are all watching the games from a stream anyway so it wont exactly be any different for us. Terrible organisation by MBCgame, kinda makes me worried that there might not be many more MSL's D:
People might want to lay off MBCGame just a tiny bit here. What if they just don't have any money? Even if they want to rent out the biggest place for the most epic final, that doesn't mean they can materialize the money to do so.
I do still think they should have played the games in front of a live audience, even if it's only 1,000 fanclub members (hey, fanclub members should cheer twice as loud, right?). This 'Virtual Studio' bullshit sounds really tacky, I'm expecting to facepalm if they try to do anything cute with 'special effects' on Flash and Jaedong.
Here is what they can actually do to make the starleagues more profitable.
Get their own streams.
Look at CNN's website. You can watch stuff live there and can search for videos of important news. Of course, you have to watch the commercials as well when you watch it live and there is a mandatory commercial before the video starts. But all that brings in profit and ratings.
If the channels provide their own stream, then they still get the ratings and the commercial revenue as the stream users would watch the commercials anyway. Turning off the stream to avoid commercial is no worse than switching channel when the commercial pops up.
Of course, starting their own live stream would require enormous resources, which is why GOM would be much more suitable to lead this type of commercialization. They already got a working video website and it is already popular.
Why would any online users use 3rd party stream if an official one is already provided that is just as good?
On January 21 2010 07:47 Dental Floss wrote: This is too weird to be as simple as it seems. Jaedong broke his hand or something and they're replacing him with Killer.
One of my favorite things about Starcraft is the crowd's reaction. My favorite moment from watching live starcraft was Yellow vs. Bisu and the crowd chanting Ho Jin Ho all the way through to the commercial, I'm sad we won't be able to have a moment like that for these finals.
On January 21 2010 07:32 dcberkeley wrote: I think the point of the ZvZ post was that ZvZ ruined the last finals which means MBC is bleeding green through their nose and had to resort to this. Which is a pretty bad hypothesis because people didn't watch it because 3/4 players were mediocre not because they were ZvZ's but I don't think he should be banned...
I think it was both the ZvZ and the quality of players. The OSL final of Jaedong vs. Luxury was a little underwhelming for an OSL final because of the matchup. But it was still better than the MSL because of the general higher quality of the OSL as well as the higher quality of players. Well, by higher quality I mean that Lux and JD had more previous big wins. I'd take Calm over Luxury at this point in time, no question. But JD and Lux > Calm and Kwanro, also no question.
You mean Jaedong v.s. Yarnc. The one side rape one.
On January 21 2010 08:32 synapse wrote: somebody is retarded over at mbcgame
Probably not MBCgame, but rather the MBC headquarter. MBCgame is just a sub-division. MBC headquarter probably didn't like the ratings that MBCgame has been getting lately for its recent finals and decided to cut back the budget.
BTW, why don't they just use one way see through sound proof glass for the booth instead?
Just a reminder, OGN and MBCGame can't charge admission for their games because Blizzard forbids it. So I have no idea whether renting a large capacity venue is an overall profitable thing for a final.
On January 21 2010 00:14 On_Slaught wrote: They sure aren't handling perhaps the greatest final in the history of esports well.
With 10 years of experience, you would have expected something much better.
Averatec Intel Classic Season 1 . It was Flash at his prime vs a excellent JaeDong
But I believe this final its quite more interesting. Flash is more dangerous than ever, and JaeDong isnt at his best, but there is an urge for him to retain his supremacy in the scene
-_- in no way shape or form was flash in his prime, yeah he was doing well but after he won his first osl and the few months prior to this have been flash at his peak
On January 21 2010 08:32 synapse wrote: somebody is retarded over at mbcgame
Probably not MBCgame, but rather the MBC headquarter. MBCgame is just a sub-division. MBC headquarter probably didn't like the ratings that MBCgame has been getting lately for its recent finals and decided to cut back the budget.
BTW, why don't they just use one way see through sound proof glass for the booth instead?
On January 21 2010 08:03 dukethegold wrote: Here is what they can actually do to make the starleagues more profitable.
Get their own streams...
OGN does already have their own stream, although it's sketchy quality lately at least from the US.
---
To everybody saying MBC-bashing is ridiculous:
We understand MBCGame has no money. We understand they can't get a big stadium. We can deal with the fan-clubs only thing, irritating as it may be.
If that were it, that would be fine. It would be disappointing, it would be unfortunate, but it's all more or less rational.
What we can't accept is this sequestering of players thing. It's the finals of a Starleague; people want to see the players play, up on stage, in front of the audience, nerves and all: there's an atmosphere to any live performance that adds something this virtual studio thing or whatever can't - and there's no way in hell that some virtual studio gimmick is cheaper than a couple of booths they already have and a projector set-up.
About the only possible justification for this is if it's being required by NATE as a way to show off some new software - in which case, disappointing and unfortunate and probably liable to piss off some potential future customers, but assuming it's as cool as they think it is, justifiable as a business decision, I guess. After all, NATE kind of saved the league this season.
On January 21 2010 08:55 Waxangel wrote: Just a reminder, OGN and MBCGame can't charge admission for their games because Blizzard forbids it. So I have no idea whether renting a large capacity venue is an overall profitable thing for a final.
Wow seriously? I wasn't aware of that at all. That's fucking sick. How can Blizzard tell these guys what they can do or not? In my eyes MSL/OSL wouldn't be charging for the game itself but rather for all the organization around it so it should completely be allowed. But I don't make the law. :/
And how come people in this thread mentioned "the fail MSL finals when they tried to charge people for it"? Did MBC charge people illegally or something? :/
On January 21 2010 08:55 Waxangel wrote: Just a reminder, OGN and MBCGame can't charge admission for their games because Blizzard forbids it. So I have no idea whether renting a large capacity venue is an overall profitable thing for a final.
Surely the advertising possibilities raise a lot with a big final? I mean, I know most people watch on the internet/TV anyway, but I would assume ratings go down a lot if the crowd is smaller.
On January 21 2010 08:32 synapse wrote: somebody is retarded over at mbcgame
Probably not MBCgame, but rather the MBC headquarter. MBCgame is just a sub-division. MBC headquarter probably didn't like the ratings that MBCgame has been getting lately for its recent finals and decided to cut back the budget.
BTW, why don't they just use one way see through sound proof glass for the booth instead?
Because it costs $$$$
One way glass doesn't work that way. One way glass is just normal glass with a dark room on one side, and a bright room on the outside. They're not going to plunge the audience in complete darkness, and I don't think they really even could if they wanted to, with all the tv screens everywhere.
As far as sound proofing... I think they do pretty well with the earbuds under the noise cancelers approach. In any case, putting the players under less pressure isn't the reason they're doing this.
On January 21 2010 08:55 Waxangel wrote: Just a reminder, OGN and MBCGame can't charge admission for their games because Blizzard forbids it. So I have no idea whether renting a large capacity venue is an overall profitable thing for a final.
Wow seriously? I wasn't aware of that at all. That's fucking sick. How can Blizzard tell these guys what they can do or not? In my eyes MSL/OSL wouldn't be charging for the game itself but rather for all the organization around it so it should completely be allowed. But I don't make the law. :/
And how come people in this thread mentioned "the fail MSL finals when they tried to charge people for it"? Did MBC charge people illegally or something? :/
Probably what Blizzard said was "you can't charge admission unless you start paying royalties". That's my guess, anyway.
On January 21 2010 08:55 Waxangel wrote: Just a reminder, OGN and MBCGame can't charge admission for their games because Blizzard forbids it. So I have no idea whether renting a large capacity venue is an overall profitable thing for a final.
Wow seriously? I wasn't aware of that at all. That's fucking sick. How can Blizzard tell these guys what they can do or not? In my eyes MSL/OSL wouldn't be charging for the game itself but rather for all the organization around it so it should completely be allowed. But I don't make the law. :/
And how come people in this thread mentioned "the fail MSL finals when they tried to charge people for it"? Did MBC charge people illegally or something? :/
by charging admission for the games, i think its a form of profiting from blizzard's creation in some indirect way
Moonhwa Broadcasting Center... or whatever C stands for.
Recently, due to their ways of programming and their contents, the whole company's profit from commercials has decreased by a lot. According to Korean television viewers, they have stated that the time that MBC spends showing commercials has multiplied by 1/3. Yes. 1/3
A.K.A, for every 3 commercials, you would only have 1 commercial. That means your profit would be 1/3 of what you previously earned. I don't know about you guys, but this means a LOT to a broadcasting station. If the situation isn't fixed, we might not even have MBC in the near future, just KBS and SBS (which NEVER shows StarCraft games.... noobs)
Now, KBS and SBS. They are basically government's puppets or so. Some stories get filtered out or edited for broadcasting so that they don't get a hammer from the government. MBC doesn't, which was one of the primary reason why the number of commercials that MBC airs went down.
Recently, I've heard that MBC is trying to be one of the 'puppets'. Why do you think they would ditch their traditional way of broadcasting?
It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$
Now going into MBCgame...
As you know, MBC Game is part of MBC. Which means that if MBC loses money, MBC Game funding goes down. I'm guessing that this is the situation right now. By using their own auditorium and their own equipments, they would be able to save $$$$$$ in order to keep things going.
I don't know the future of MBC at this moment with all these stuff going on. Hopefully they make enough profit in the future to hold MSL Finals game at much bigger places. But for now, this would be the best solution both for MBC and MBC Game, and their respective future.
As far as I can tell, MBC's actions are done for good intentions.
1) Having players play somewhere else for less pressure.
MBC just wants Flash and Jaedong to play their best without having the immense pressure of a crowd. I may not agree with this, but I understand their intentions.
2) 1000 person studio.
I don't know their financial situation and I'm 100% sure halls are NOT booked 1 week in advance. They are booked MONTHS in advance. If MBC isn't making money off seat sales, plus they had no clue until last week that Jaedong vs Flash would be playing....
How the heck can you blame them for what they did? It's a coin flip, one year you get Luxury, the next you get Kwanro, and now you get Jaedong. I mean, Kwanro could have luckboxed his way through Flash and we'd be having a Kwanro vs Jaedong finals.... What a flop. I wouldn't even watch it and I'm a Jaedong fanboy. I'd say a 10 person studio would be good for Jaedong vs Kwanro...... Hindsight is 20/20.
You can't expect them to book massive 10 000+ halls for every single finals.
3) Flash incident.
MBC merely trying to hype up Flash vs Jaedong. I may not agree but I understand their intentions.
This is so retarded. It is every players dream to be there playing on the stage in front of a huge crowd. That's a big part of their motivation as a progamer, be in that booth some day. This is such a stupid business decision. I just f*king can't get the logic behind this.
im very upset. every sport has a final where people gather around to watch. it's just the way it is. it gets the players pumped and the crowd pumped. breaking this mutual feeling is a fundamental mistake which MBC is to blame.
On January 21 2010 10:02 supernovamaniac wrote: I'm just going to come out straight forward and say this.
You guys are idiots, only thinking about the 'audience's aspect' in this situation.
Might as well as end MSL after NATE, throw away all the money, and throw away Proleague as well since MBC wouldn't be able to support that either.
Small venue due to little cash is forgiveable, but there's no amount of flashy graphics that can compensate for them separating the finalists from the existing crowd. It's completely fucking unnecessary.
Let's leave Jaedong/Flash's parents out of the stadium if they arrive late.
Along with the fanclub members to both of the players if they arrive late. You think you guys have better luck because you guys actually support them throughout the whole year? Well, suck it up.
It might be unnecessary to get rid of regular audience, yes. But completely fucking unnecessary?
So in the end, after calculating all those people, there are few seats... lets say... 10~50 or so. And with those seats left, thousands of people will race to the auditorium to fight and take over the seats.
Might as well as stand at the exits to watch the game, creating a fire hazard for over thousand people in the studio.
On January 21 2010 10:02 supernovamaniac wrote: I'm just going to come out straight forward and say this.
You guys are idiots, only thinking about the 'audience's aspect' in this situation.
Might as well as end MSL after NATE, throw away all the money, and throw away Proleague as well since MBC wouldn't be able to support that either.
The MSL (and OSL) exist for the audience so it's not being an idiot to think about the "audience's aspect" of the situation. Frankly, if the MSL keeps going down this route and pissing off the fans, I can't think of too many people that would want to attach their name to it and associate themselves with the league, which would mean that the MSL might end one way or the other. If you're in the entertainment business, catering to the fans and keeping them engaged and satisfied is key. That's why so many people are saying that this is an incredibly short-sighted move on their part.
Yes, in the short run it might guarantee another MSL after this, but will their financial picture be much bigger all of a sudden next MSL? Who's going to want to sponsor it? They had enough trouble finding a sponsor this time around even without making a train wreck out of possibly the greatest final we've seen in years. I'll be interested to see which company is going to want to sponsor a league that's been catching so much flak from the community...
On January 21 2010 10:09 supernovamaniac wrote: So you're saying first come first serve?
Ok then.
Let's leave Jaedong/Flash's parents out of the stadium if they arrive late.
Along with the fanclub members to both of the players if they arrive late. You think you guys have better luck because you guys actually support them throughout the whole year? Well, suck it up.
It might be unnecessary to get rid of regular audience, yes. But completely fucking unnecessary?
So in the end, after calculating all those people, there are few seats... lets say... 10~50 or so. And with those seats left, thousands of people will race to the auditorium to fight and take over the seats.
Might as well as stand at the exits to watch the game, creating a fire hazard for over thousand people in the studio.
Of course there should be reserved seats, but look at the numbers. 300 seats for Kespa and the remaining 700 strictly for fan club members? Even I didn't make the argument that 1000 people is a piss poor capacity (my high school auditorium held more people), reserving 100% of the seating and providing absolutely nothing to the public is absurd...
Yeah after reading some stuff I kinda dont hate MBCgame anymore. They probably WANTED to do it, but just CANT. We all just need to understand the circumstances. After all, you really cant do shit if you dont have the $$$$.
Yet, MSL isn't the only thing that they are risking 'financially' through the movement.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if I only get to see Proleague through OGN in the near future.
And yes. Catching fans is important. Yet saving their asses first comes first before the cable is plugged out. And with the words that I've been hearing about MBC... yea. They're desperate to save every single penny. They would do whatever it takes to start making profit, even by 'sucking up' to the government.
Sure, both roads are risky. There's no doubt about it. Yet, this is rage against..
1. Something that hasn't happened yet (Virtual Studio wise)
2. Something that you guys won't probably be involved in, unless you live in Korea or planning to visit Korea for this solemn reason.
And the fact is, MBC probably doesn't care enough to fund MBCGame division of its company for the finals of MSL. They already have a problem financially themselves, and they won't risk spending another penny trying to keep their cable channel rather than their main broadcasting channel. Hell, MBC have great lineup, and sometimes people watch it over other 'government puppet' broadcasting stations (무한도전 for example). With the problems that they have right now, money goes to those programs, not (less important) MBCGame.
I have to admit to being worried when I saw the venue. Terrible news - MBC not only screwed up the new location of their studio, but now they're screwing hundreds of fans out of their chance to see the better of the two finals match ups.
I can understand getting a smaller location if you're lacking in money, but restricting entrance to fanclub members only is completely un-necessary. It should be a fair 'first come, first served.' basis with a limited amount of seats for friends/family and whomever is dispensing the cheques. I also do not believe seats should be wasted on un-necessary dignitaries from the related companies who most likely do not want/care about being there.
Also making it so you can only apply via the fan clubs screws any foreigners who aren't me out of going. I can't even get seats for Mr.Hoon and his GF now. I'll do the best I can to provide coverage of this, but it's not going to be a patch on my OSL coverage since they've chosen such a cheap method of sharing it with the fans.
Separating the players in a 'virtual' studio is also a pile of bullshit. Seeing the players come out of the booth and hug their team mates/coaches or go running off to find their Mum like Flash did is part of what makes the finals atmosphere so vibrant and helps the fans connect with the personalities of the players.
Honestly, as someone who has been to many finals and seen how passionate the fans can get. I'm utterly disgusted by some of the choices they're making here.
NeverGG: Do you have pictures of the Hero center? I remember everywhere else being deserted in that mall, which was already bad enough for MBCGame to begin with.
Compare that to Coex Mall: People just walk by and then stop to see what's happening. There are literally... thousands, or maybe tens of thousands of people in that mall.
Wow, I guess I can say good bye to seeing the fans in the stadium. : ( Although it doesn't hurt me as bad because I'm just gonna watch it livestream anyway.
On January 21 2010 09:26 Tien wrote: As far as I can tell, MBC's actions are done for good intentions.
1) Having players play somewhere else for less pressure.
MBC just wants Flash and Jaedong to play their best without having the immense pressure of a crowd. I may not agree with this, but I understand their intentions.
2) 1000 person studio.
I don't know their financial situation and I'm 100% sure halls are NOT booked 1 week in advance. They are booked MONTHS in advance. If MBC isn't making money off seat sales, plus they had no clue until last week that Jaedong vs Flash would be playing....
How the heck can you blame them for what they did? It's a coin flip, one year you get Luxury, the next you get Kwanro, and now you get Jaedong. I mean, Kwanro could have luckboxed his way through Flash and we'd be having a Kwanro vs Jaedong finals.... What a flop. I wouldn't even watch it and I'm a Jaedong fanboy. I'd say a 10 person studio would be good for Jaedong vs Kwanro...... Hindsight is 20/20.
You can't expect them to book massive 10 000+ halls for every single finals.
3) Flash incident.
MBC merely trying to hype up Flash vs Jaedong. I may not agree but I understand their intentions.
What are you serious. Of course a lot of things have "good intentions" but it doesn't mean that they are correct.
I'm actually disagreeing with Wax on this one, so help me as I dodge lightning bolts, but MBC fully deserve every ounce of criticism that they get.
There are so many things that MBCgame is doing wrong in this situation.
But first of all, it must be said that a big part of it isn't MBC's fault. Their parent company is losing money these days.
HOWEVER, MBCgame has been so desperate to raise ratings, particularly by gently guiding the biggest stars to get to the finals, that they have compromised the integrity of their own tournament.
You know why the MSL used to rock? Because we knew that whoever won the MSL was the REAL strongest progamer. It's old Double-elimination format, and later straightforward tournament format (with rigorous survivor tournament qualification), ensured that the strongest progamer would usually win the entire thing. The MSL gave us the reigns of Nada, oov, and Savior. It was a great counterbalance to the more narrative-and-drama oriented OSL. You could always trust the OSL winner to be a dramatic story. Meanwhile, you could always trust the MSL winner to be top3 absolute most skillful players at the moment.
This was brand consistency.
Yet now what does MSL do? Team seed into Survivor? Re-shuffle the bracket at the round of 8? What is that? Either re-shuffle at the beginning of knockout rounds or don't at all. (and you in the back who is about to mention the NHL, stop right now. NHL is just as mismanaged). MSL is desperately trying to force a 'great finals matchup' as if that will miraculously bring in the ratings and cure all their ills.
And don't get me started on how they are fucking over the fan experience.
Dual groups spread over two game days? Multi-day Bo5s? No live audience?
Why the hell are fans supposed to be grateful for these?
If there is no space in the 1000 seat hall to build a live stage, then you make it a 500 seat hall with live stage. THE EXPERIENCE MUST BE LIVE. A live audience is an absolutely essential aspect of live sports. You cannot possibly consider yourself a serious tournament if you stage the finals with the world's best players in a booth somewhere with no crowd. What is this, ghemTV? That's like staging the Wimbledon finals in an empty tennis court and putting the crowd in another room.
It does not take months to book a performance space. MBC could have done it at the quarters, or the semis. They just dropped the ball (or simply didn't have the money)
The worst part is reserving 300 seat for team and family and Kespa. MBC, what are you doing. Flash and Jaedong together do not have 100 friends, family, and teammates who can come to the finals. Who are the 200 other seats going to? What kind of Kespa brownnosing is this? The whole thing just smells of cronyism and a severe misplacement of priority by MBC.
I tried to assume MBC innosense through all of this. Maybe they don't have money. Maybe they really think that the current tournament format is truely for the best. Maybe they really have only the best intentions... but then I think about those 200 seats that MBC has taken away from the fans and I just can't possibly forgive them this time.
On January 21 2010 10:30 supernovamaniac wrote: NeverGG: Do you have pictures of the Hero center? I remember everywhere else being deserted in that mall, which was already bad enough for MBCGame to begin with.
Compare that to Coex Mall: People just walk by and then stop to see what's happening. There are literally... thousands, or maybe tens of thousands of people in that mall.
I'm going to do a virtual tour of it during early February. I attempted to do one during the MSL selection night, but the backstage area was inaccessible at the time due to the staging so I'm re-recording it asap. Although COEX was a much smaller venue the problems it had with lack of space and layout/backstage areas being too small can't out-weight the fundamental problems with LOOX's studio (namely layout, foot traffic, overall location, fan facilities, cleanliness, lighting, sound stage. To name, but a few of the reasons why I loathe it so comprehensively.)
Would've liked to see the players play in front of a big audience a lot more =(. Just seems a lot more epic. Well, it's still JD vs Flash. Hopefully the streams don't get overloaded or something.
But that was one of the older stadiums where people just tried to pack themselves, just like the SKY Proleagues and the old Ever Starleagues, right?
I think I also remember watching a VOD where there were thousands of fans outside the studio (the place where they held so1 starleague and such), watching the action through a tiny ass television.
Oh and by the way, let this be a wake-up call to all the ostriches with their heads in the sand.
Progaming isn't healthy, not even in Korea. They can call it e-sports all they want but it remains a niche hobby with a small following that loses money every year.
On January 21 2010 10:09 supernovamaniac wrote: So you're saying first come first serve?
Ok then.
Let's leave Jaedong/Flash's parents out of the stadium if they arrive late.
Along with the fanclub members to both of the players if they arrive late. You think you guys have better luck because you guys actually support them throughout the whole year? Well, suck it up.
It might be unnecessary to get rid of regular audience, yes. But completely fucking unnecessary?
So in the end, after calculating all those people, there are few seats... lets say... 10~50 or so. And with those seats left, thousands of people will race to the auditorium to fight and take over the seats.
Might as well as stand at the exits to watch the game, creating a fire hazard for over thousand people in the studio.
I think you're missing the point. The problem is that Flash and JD won't be playing infront of the limited live audience there is. That's completely unnecessary. OK, they couldn't afford more than 1000 viewers in the venue, but it's completely (fucking) unnecessary to separate even those 1000 from the gamers. Even a small, dedicated crowd of fans is infinitely better than having the players in one room and the audience in another! Surely you can see that.
btw I don't know what on earth made you think of something as silly as Jaedong/Flash's parents being left out for coming late. In any setup they would be guaranteed seats anyway -_-
I was theoretically speaking. But some Koreans are ignorant to take their seats and say nothing about it, until they get kicked out of the stadium, or even get arrested. (I've seen many idiots when I was around 5~12, back in the days when I lived in Korea)
Separating those 1000 limited viewers from the live game studio? I'm pretty sure those 1000 people were allowed in-stadium, while regular fans stay outside of the stadium.
Although, people in the stadium have to watch the players play with the GREEN SCREEN behind them.
P.S. I'm planning to mention how MBC has basically denied entry to any foreign fans by using this policy to my friends in Kespa (head of PL planning etc.) in the politest manner possible of course. Just so they are aware of how upset some of us are about the way this finals is being handled. The venue is forgivable, but the seating and player arrangements make me livid. I hope we can avoid something like this in the future.
Is it just me or is it entirely possible that the games have already been played and will simply be re-broadcast on that particular day since nobody is actually seeing them play?
On January 21 2010 11:15 DrTJEckleburg wrote: Is it just me or is it entirely possible that the games have already been played and will simply be re-broadcast on that particular day since nobody is actually seeing them play?
If Jaedong or Flash comes out picking up their prices very bored, then yes it might be pre-recorded. Hell they might even pre-record the ceremonies and even the commentating.
On January 21 2010 11:10 supernovamaniac wrote: I was theoretically speaking. But some Koreans are ignorant to take their seats and say nothing about it, until they get kicked out of the stadium, or even get arrested. (I've seen many idiots when I was around 5~12, back in the days when I lived in Korea)
Separating those 1000 limited viewers from the live game studio? I'm pretty sure those 1000 people were allowed in-stadium, while regular fans stay outside of the stadium.
Although, people in the stadium have to watch the players play with the GREEN SCREEN behind them.
Having fans watching outside of the venue is not physically possible during this time of year. Especially with the lingering worries over swine flu and general sickness. Considering the temperatures last week went down to -7c anyone who isn't fan club (and also Korean.) has basically been denied entry.
There may be screens set up in the areas beyond the main studio where the 1000 fanclub members etc are, but it all depends upon the size of the actual building so I doubt the arrangement will accomodate many more people.
Also the normal arrangement for ticketing at a finals runs like this;
First come first served for general admissions. No charge of course for anyone. Fan club often has reserved seating in the main area directly behind the teams/company execs, family and friends of the players. It is never more than between 10-20 rows of seating. Fans line up according to whether they are fan club or not. Fan club leaders wear tags and are in charge of organizing the fans.
Everything is far more civilized than you seem to think. There's no fighting and even if some fans do jostle a bit no one runs for seating or gets violent.
One more note: I don't have an accurate way of even finding out whether this virtual studio will be located in the same building or not so don't be surprised if my coverage amounts to a few photos of some fans and a video or two of them in the auditorium. It all depends upon if my co-workers from Fomos turn up and are able to enlighten me to their location.
On January 21 2010 11:15 DrTJEckleburg wrote: Is it just me or is it entirely possible that the games have already been played and will simply be re-broadcast on that particular day since nobody is actually seeing them play?
If Jaedong or Flash comes out picking up their prices very bored, then yes it might be pre-recorded. Hell they might even pre-record the ceremonies and even the commentating.
omg it's just like our fake moon landing in the 60's
The studio-D thing has been known for a while, so I'm not sure why so many people are freaking out about the lack of possible attendance (which again, at most would have been about a 1000, even if open to the public).
However, the virtual studio shit is pretty stupid. Not exactly sure what MBC is thinking on that, but someone, somewhere must have had his/her reasons.
On January 21 2010 12:54 moopie wrote: The studio-D thing has been known for a while, so I'm not sure why so many people are freaking out about the lack of possible attendance (which again, at most would have been about a 1000, even if open to the public).
However, the virtual studio shit is pretty stupid. Not exactly sure what MBC is thinking on that, but someone, somewhere must have had his/her reasons.
Known for a while *if* you happen to read Korean and knew about the capacity for the auditorium itself - which not even myself (working on the front line of Korean eSports.) knew until it was translated properly. I think all things considered people have a right to 'freak out' over how much of a crappy deal this is for the fans, both Korean who will now not be able to attend and foreign who will miss out on the atmosphere of a finals with the players in the same room as the fans - which a lot of us appreciate.
Also 'which again, at most would have been about a 1000, even if open to the public' this is completely inaccurate. Especially for a finals with such high profile players. Even the shoddiest of finals (*coughKwanroCalmcough*) attracts more than 1000 people.
Are they fucking insane? I'm staying up all night to watch this, because it could produce some of the best starcraft games ever seen. It won't be nearly as interesting watching the game without players in front of the crowd though, imagine buying tickets to cheer at that... and wouldn't that also hurt the players, since the crowd could invigorate them to play harder?
On January 21 2010 13:03 Newguy wrote: Are they fucking insane? I'm staying up all night to watch this, because it could produce some of the best starcraft games ever seen. It won't be nearly as interesting watching the game without players in front of the crowd though, imagine buying tickets to cheer at that... and wouldn't that also hurt the players, since the crowd could invigorate them to play harder?
No events charge entrance fees. However, from the netizen comments and the comments here the general consensus seems to be that this is an idiotic series of decisions upon MBC's part.
Oh and by the way, let this be a wake-up call to all the ostriches with their heads in the sand.
Progaming isn't healthy, not even in Korea. They can call it e-sports all they want but it remains a niche hobby with a small following that loses money every year.
Hmmm, does it really lose money every year or are you just saying that?? Livestreams from teamliquid have more people on them I'm pretty sure, some 3700 people on roffles stream alone for osl finals, did that many people watch a finals on teamliquid in the past?? Also, progamers aren't all in bad health, look at Air Force Ace for example. They are a proteam with some pretty damn good players and every single member of the team is in good health.
On January 21 2010 13:12 Archon_Wing wrote: And this is why the MSL will always be second at best. Good luck finding a sponsor next time. They'll need it
next to only the tsl, ofc, amirite? am i rite guys?
Oh and by the way, let this be a wake-up call to all the ostriches with their heads in the sand.
Progaming isn't healthy, not even in Korea. They can call it e-sports all they want but it remains a niche hobby with a small following that loses money every year.
Hmmm, does it really lose money every year or are you just saying that?? Livestreams from teamliquid have more people on them I'm pretty sure, some 3700 people on roffles stream alone for osl finals, did that many people watch a finals on teamliquid in the past?? Also, progamers aren't all in bad health, look at Air Force Ace for example. They are a proteam with some pretty damn good players and every single member of the team is in good health.
I think he means that it's losing a following in korea. It's definitely growing in the foreign scene, now that we can get streams, etc. easier
If MBC still considers itself to be a competent corporation and still wants to save its face here, it must release some sort of official statement from its CEO and offer a satisfactory explanation for this disaster ASAP.
Just letting the Netizens run wild with their imagination isn't helping MBC's popularity.
Good thing that SC2 is coming. Otherwise, I'd be predicting the fall of e-sport within this decade.
On January 21 2010 12:54 moopie wrote: The studio-D thing has been known for a while, so I'm not sure why so many people are freaking out about the lack of possible attendance (which again, at most would have been about a 1000, even if open to the public).
However, the virtual studio shit is pretty stupid. Not exactly sure what MBC is thinking on that, but someone, somewhere must have had his/her reasons.
Known for a while *if* you happen to read Korean and knew about the capacity for the auditorium itself - which not even myself (working on the front line of Korean eSports.) knew until it was translated properly. I think all things considered people have a right to 'freak out' over how much of a crappy deal this is for the fans, both Korean who will now not be able to attend and foreign who will miss out on the atmosphere of a finals with the players in the same room as the fans - which a lot of us appreciate.
Also 'which again, at most would have been about a 1000, even if open to the public' this is completely inaccurate. Especially for a finals with such high profile players. Even the shoddiest of finals (*coughKwanroCalmcough*) attracts more than 1000 people.
I meant that given the knowledge of the event location (and size), the attendence at most would be around a thousand people (even if open to the public, as opposed to only fanclubs/family/teams/etc), thus why it was already not going to be an 'epic' scene (like WCG/OSL). I wasn't stating that given unlimited seating/space, there would be at most a 1000 people in attendance.
The fact that they chose a smaller stadium is what seems the worst to me. Limiting the number of people who want to see the games live is just horrible.
On January 21 2010 14:11 EpiK wrote: why couldn't they have done this for the kwanro vs calm final? No one would've given a shit then
Its partly because of that that they went with a smaller venue. Since it had to be scheduled before they knew what the final ticket will look like, and attendance has been low in the past, MBC figured its better to have a smaller venue that is packed than a huge one that is mostly empty.
What would be more 'epic', seeing a full room of people cheering, or seeing an empty chair or two between every person?
Like I stated above, I can't really fault them for the smaller room, but I can (and do) for the 'virtual studio'.
I bet this is a publicity stunt where the winner is set of fire back stage and BURSTS through the screen, still in flames, and jumps into the audience screaming.
On January 21 2010 14:30 LF9 wrote: I bet this is a publicity stunt where the winner is set of fire back stage and BURSTS through the screen, still in flames, and jumps into the audience screaming.
YOU SIR ARE A GENIUS OMG IMPLEMENT THIS NOW SOMEONE.
how much money does a ticket cost? cause even from a business perspective, it makes no sense to hold it in such a tiny venue when they should easily be able to attract many many more fans.
If MSL folds, could GOMTV fill it's place? Wasn't the main reason for KESPA not liking GOM was the fact that it forced the players to play too many games?
On January 21 2010 16:59 moopie wrote: OSL/MSL isnt really about the money, its about the title.
Umm .... the title is awesome and so is 20k or 15k or 30k or 10k or whatever it is this year, jaedong only makes 100k a year, 20k would be a fifth of his yearly salary .... for a couple weeks of training and 2 hours MAX of gameplay ....
On January 21 2010 16:59 moopie wrote: OSL/MSL isnt really about the money, its about the title.
Umm .... the title is awesome and so is 20k or 15k or 30k or 10k or whatever it is this year, jaedong only makes 100k a year, 20k would be a fifth of his yearly salary .... for a couple weeks of training and 2 hours MAX of gameplay ....
but yes the title is far sexier 'theoretically'
Direct salary is estimated at over $110k (though in the ballpark), toss in endorsements/ads and its up there. I wasn't saying the money is meaningless, but between JD and Flash (both S-class players making bank), the MSL championship isn't about the cash.
not really a huge deal to me and most people here considering we`ll all be watching on a stream anyways. ppl in korea can still watch the finals on tv, i watched the stanley cup finals on tv and i didn`t rage.
besides, players say they play better at practice so hopefully a less stressful environment will allow them to play at an even higher caliber, and maybe jaedong will have a chance.
On January 21 2010 18:35 Raz wrote: not really a huge deal to me and most people here considering we`ll all be watching on a stream anyways. ppl in korea can still watch the finals on tv, i watched the stanley cup finals on tv and i didn`t rage.
besides, players say they play better at practice so hopefully a less stressful environment will allow them to play at an even higher caliber, and maybe jaedong will have a chance.
ok imagine stanley cup finals with audience consisting of 1000 people, third of them family members
wow what a fucked up move... big part of the epic finals atmosphere comes from the background hype from a huge crowd... In fact, Id go as far as saying we remember many of the boxer finals as epic partly because he was able to draw such large audiences. I remember Boxer vs Yellow and the audience was impressive. With the players seperated and a measly 1000 spectators, I dont expect much epic feeling to be created from the crowd, which is a bloody shame for the most anticipated finals in a cpl years
As people have said, MBC just don't have the money.
I work in events atm, and it's extremely expensive to run a sub 1k person event let alone something around 10k. Perhaps they need to look at different sponsor arrangements for the future where they can bring on different tiers just for the finals.
Would MBC get control over things like food, beverage and merchandise?
It'd be interesting to see their revenue streams and where they could improve as they clearly aren't making enough and it isn't doing justice to a great finals series like this.
I highly doubt that its that much about money as some people are implying. This is about the expected turnout.
In recent MSLs, turnout has been less than great (like with Calm/Kwanro), and its much better to show a Medium-sized venue that's packed with people cheerings and carrying signs, than a half empty stadium with empty seats between the fans. They didn't know what the final ticket would look like this MSL. The blame shouldn't fall on them for the small/medium sized venue, but on (A) limiting the available attendance to fanclubs (instead of allowing the general public), and (B) the virtual studio, which removes a lot of the 'excitement' of panning onto the audience as they sit actually watching the players (rather than a screen showing the players).
On January 21 2010 18:35 Raz wrote: not really a huge deal to me and most people here considering we`ll all be watching on a stream anyways. ppl in korea can still watch the finals on tv, i watched the stanley cup finals on tv and i didn`t rage.
besides, players say they play better at practice so hopefully a less stressful environment will allow them to play at an even higher caliber, and maybe jaedong will have a chance.
ok imagine stanley cup finals with audience consisting of 1000 people, third of them family members
You forgot that they watch it on a screen in a different room.
That sucks but you know what, we are going to get some FANTASTIC games either way. This will be so damn good... It is dissapointing but in no way ruins what we are about to witness. I am still SOOOOOO EXCITED FOR THIS!
I'm surprised that once they discovered it was going to be Flash vs Jaedong they didn't scramble to find a new venue, find a way to get these guys to a bigger venue, anything.... Instead they decide to do that photo overall of Flash's face.. hahaha
If for the grudge matches, they can get players playing on the back of a truck...hell they could do they same in short notice! have them play on the back of trucks in a huge parking lot or something...
On January 22 2010 04:59 G5 wrote: ahahahahaha MBCFAIL ROFL
That sucks but you know what, we are going to get some FANTASTIC games either way. This will be so damn good... It is dissapointing but in no way ruins what we are about to witness. I am still SOOOOOO EXCITED FOR THIS!
I hope since they are all jeadong/flash fans that they got absolutely f'in apeshit to make up for the small crowd :O Like, I wanna see a riot. Games just aren't as fun unless the crowd is losing their minds.
On January 22 2010 19:20 Liquid_Turbo wrote: If for the grudge matches, they can get players playing on the back of a truck...hell they could do they same in short notice! have them play on the back of trucks in a huge parking lot or something...
That's a good idea dude, I believe the dudes at the head of MBC must've thought of this kind of way-out but maybe the sheer number of legal and technical procedures to go through were so large that they couldn't afford time and money to make such a venue change? u know, things like providing security and seats for 10k+ ppl are not easy to be done without proper prep time. Anyway, there's NO EXCUSE for MBC's decision to completely isolate Jaedong and Flash from the audience!!!! This's sure gonna go down in pro-gaming history as one of the dumb-fuckin-best decisions ever made!!!!!!!!!111111
Maybe the geniuses at MBC have thought of using canned awes, and some guy with signs indicating the audience when to applause and such bullcrap. Maybe they could have JD and Flash play from their respective proteam houses. SOBs...
Next thing we know is that MSL will be for the progamers that got beat out of the OSL. Like a Star/starcraft league for KeSPA Dream League or something
EPT
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