Trivia! Did you know two of the last edition of Courage's winners (kitty[gm] and rising[kal]) took them more than two years to attain a license? I found their names on the sign-up lists for the 37th Courage, and this current one is the 56th. It's definitely tough.
EDIT! Saturday Group Winners Group A Seoul - Kaze_Hwasin OR Jy.ArtPlay (both have the same Korean name =/) Group B Seoul - Gas[fOu] (MBC Practice Partner) Group C Seoul - Winners.Icarus Group D Seoul - Smart[S.G] OR Ares(You_Ta)
it's still Single Elimination of 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> 2. But there is Courage in Seoul on both Saturday and Sunday, and for this month, once in Gwangju (they rotate it through all of the 'outside of Seoul' cities).
On December 24 2009 17:18 GTR wrote: it's still Single Elimination of 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> 2. But there is Courage in Seoul on both Saturday and Sunday, and for this month, once in Gwangju (they rotate it through all of the 'outside of Seoul' cities).
On December 24 2009 17:18 GTR wrote: it's still Single Elimination of 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> 2. But there is Courage in Seoul on both Saturday and Sunday, and for this month, once in Gwangju (they rotate it through all of the 'outside of Seoul' cities).
According to Daniel Lee who was BMing at that time...
Estro probably gave it to him because CJ wanted him but also wanted the license. When he got the license justified by internal results CJ immediately acquired him.
On December 25 2009 00:02 Glaucus wrote: According to Daniel Lee who was BMing at that time...
Estro probably gave it to him because CJ wanted him but also wanted the license. When he got the license justified by internal results CJ immediately acquired him.
Are you sure you're not making the part up about "justified by interal results". This isn't a movie, you know. Sometimes people just get things because it's convenient, not because they really deserve it. I don't know anything, but your story just sounds like a lame way of justifying a random decision.
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
Sounds plausible enough. As far a i know a team can only give a certain number on licenses a year and i can imagine CJ didn't want to waste one for Idra. They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not, they just wanted to have a white face sitting around in the basement.
On December 25 2009 01:04 ftb wrote: Sounds plausible enough. As far a i know a team can only give a certain number on licenses a year and i can imagine CJ didn't want to waste one for Idra. They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not, they just wanted to have a white face sitting around in the basement.
What's the point of having a white face in the basement? If anything it may affect team spirit. And they got Idra because he impressed then by almost beating Stork straight up.
Estro has a limited amount of licenses. Why would estro give Idra to CJ just after giving him a license? They must have known beforehand and there must have been something in return.
ret will wtfpwn anyone in this courage. I hope Artosis can give us fpovs like the last time. loved his comments on how ret was used to the sittuation he was in and suddenly he lost...
both are nice guys and love artosis videos mainly with ret in it.
On December 25 2009 00:02 Glaucus wrote: According to Daniel Lee who was BMing at that time...
Estro probably gave it to him because CJ wanted him but also wanted the license. When he got the license justified by internal results CJ immediately acquired him.
Are you sure you're not making the part up about "justified by interal results". This isn't a movie, you know. Sometimes people just get things because it's convenient, not because they really deserve it. I don't know anything, but your story just sounds like a lame way of justifying a random decision.
oh, and gl Ret!
why the fuck would they make a random decision? If they can give the lisence to someone better than idra, they would have. Its already been stated that Idra had to break 50% in a practice tourny to get the lisence, and its already been stated CJ took notice of Idra when he played yellow/stork at blizzcon and thought he had potential.
On December 25 2009 01:04 ftb wrote: Sounds plausible enough. As far a i know a team can only give a certain number on licenses a year and i can imagine CJ didn't want to waste one for Idra. They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not, they just wanted to have a white face sitting around in the basement.
What's the point of having a white face in the basement? If anything it may affect team spirit. And they got Idra because he impressed then by almost beating Stork straight up.
Estro has a limited amount of licenses. Why would estro give Idra to CJ just after giving him a license? They must have known beforehand and there must have been something in return.
yea, a bag of rice...
Ret! please be the first foreigner to win courage!!!
the questions about Idra have already been explained by Fakesteve when SDM first raged about it
iirc....Estro held this foreigner's tournament where the winner gets a license, Idra won it therefore he got the license and was on estro. but they only had him playing iccup and not even anything remotely close to practicing with the other members, then he got traded to cj and the rest is history... i'll link the actual post if i find it
EDIT: found it, so fakesteve didn't say this...kkkk i have proof ggnore
On June 07 2009 06:59 Sadistx wrote: Gotta love how the last 25 pages are discussing a bunch of lines in a game chat, and I thought the worst drama queens were on the EVE-online forums. Apparently not.
Gotta love SDM's hypocrisy though - he blames Idra for chatting in game and then starts acting like a total whiny 10 year old kid - "waaaah waaah Idra should worship me forever, waaah waaah he typed some stuff and this made me mad, so I'm not going to cast the gameeee".
Maybe he should have professionally confronted him after the game or just imposed rules for the next ro ?
Yeah it seriously ruined the entire cast, tasteless was trying but daniel just killed the entire thing
Imagine how SDM must feel though. He brought Idra over, handed him a progamer license without winning courage (something completely unheard of) and after bending over backwards like this Idra is over the top disrespectful to his opponents and bm. Its incredibly embarrassing for SDM, especially in a culture where respect is so important. He stuck his neck out for Idra and this is how he acts? Its not even trash talking or silly like FBH, its downright malicious and self-absorbed, which is pretty unacceptable for somebody who genuinely is the worst progamer in Korea.
lol i'm gonna respond to this one post because i picked it out of a crowd. sorry Idle you are the whipping boy today
First let me say that my opinion of Daniel Lee has not changed. There was a positive in Daniel Lee having the balls to freak out mid-broadcast just because he was pissed off that equaled out the negative of Daniel Lee acting like a stupid fucking child and saying a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit about Idra. Allow me to explain why this is unsubstantiated bullshit.
Once upon there was a starcraft tournament for North American players. A wondrous prize was announced, a tip to Korea to live with the eSTRO team and become a real progamer! A young man named Idra entered, and he just so happened to win. Fancy that! Out of a field of competitors with equal chances to win this prize based entirely around their gameplay in that particular tournament, Idra was chosen. Daniel Lee chose Idra from 16 players.
But all was not as it seemed in the StarCraft motherland. You know what Idra did when he got to Korea? He played on iccup. That's all. Once the novelty of a white guy in the room wore off, all of the eSTRO B team players refused to play with Idra. This is well documented on TL, go look around. Do a little fucking research, know what you're talking about before you open your goddamned mouth.
If Daniel Lee is Idra's savior, the man who saved Idra from the horrible clutches of nonkorean newbiness, what should Daniel Lee have done about the situation Idra found himself in, playing idiots on iccup, lacking any alternative because his new teammates wouldn't play him? Daniel Lee should have done something about that, if Daniel Lee is Idra's savior and not the engineer of a PR stunt. Daniel Lee didn't do a goddamned thing.
You want to know who Idra's savior was? Sean motherfucking Oh. Yeah, the CJ coach. After Idra was given a license, something that happens all the fuckin' time, as each team can give a license to two players per year if they want those players on the team and they haven't won courage, a trade happens. Idra certainly did not beg for his progaming license, whether he was handed the license for gameplay or to further the PR stunt & solidify the perception of Daniel Lee as the shining force bridging the gap between Korea and the rest of the world is irrelevant. For how big an expert on Idra and his mannerisms you all seem to think you are, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Sean Oh and Idra met at Blizzcon, and shortly after, Idra joined the CJ B team.
Now, eSTRO has a pretty bad B team. Their A team ain't too hot, for that matter. They're a bottom-of-the-barrel team. CJ, however, has far and away the strongest B team of ANY progaming team. That's where Idra found himself. From there, he improved his gameplay legitimately by playing against good players for ten hours a day. Daniel Lee's involvement with Idra began with hosting a tournament that Idra won, and ended with Idra being shipped to CJ after playing nothing but iccup as a member of a progaming team house for several months. And Daniel Lee handed everything to Idra on a silver platter? Daniel fucking Lee MADE Idra? What a joke.
Now, as for Idra and BM:
Idra is an angry fucking nerd. He really is. He hates losing, he hates the Protoss, he hates bad players, he hates just about everything except winning in TvZ. He says a lot of dumb shit for no reason, and all of his friends give him more hell about it than any of you with your passive-aggressive, pathetic comments about how Idra should leave Korea and kill himself or whatever. Idra does not represent foreigners. Idra speaks bluntly with latent rage about StarCraft and plays 10 hours a day. Incidents have happened before and will undoubtedly happen again. This does not matter, because Idra doesn't owe and of you a goddamned thing. Do you really think Idra would go on Korean tv and badmouth some progamer? Of course not, because those games matter relevant to his position & his career. Don't be so naive to think that the CJ team, other progamers who have a vague idea who he is, and his coaches don't know about his mannerisms. Don't be so naive to think that they really give two shits about it. Stork used to talk shit to anyone and everyone when he was a B teamer, no one cares. iloveoov used to be the rudest dude alive, no one cares. Why the hell do you all care? What's wrong with you? Be fans of the game, not some retarded idealogy of "what a progamer should be".
What Idra said to Tarson was not bad manner. Oh golly gee, jiminy cripes, oh whillikers, shock and horror! He said the F word!!!! He dared to suggest that foreign terrans don't have a rhyme & reason in their cheeses that is comparable to korean pros!!!! He dared to suggest that foreign terrans generally cheese with the intent of carrying out a specific attack regardless of what the opponent does!!!! He DARED to suggest that foreign players are not nearly as good at cheesing in TvT as korean pros and therefore do it all fuckin wierd with strange results!!!! HOW DARE YOU IDRA?
Come on. What Idra said is generally true & was not intended to be rude or demeaning at all. Tarson certainly didn't seem to take offense. There is a clear difference between Korean professional TvT cheese and nonkorean TvT cheese. Pro TvT cheese is fucking surgical, foreign TvT cheese is totally haphazard. It's completely fair for Idra to say that he doesn't FE against foreigners in TvT because he has no idea how to play against them. He is saying that he cannot fast expand because of all the wierd and unpredictable shit foreign Terrans do in the matchup, and there is a higher probability that he will die if he chooses to FE rather than open safer and let his mechanics carry him. This is a reasonable statement and is what you would see if you read between the lines from the perspective of someone who isn't a 14 year old mouth-breathing caveman. This is not an absolute statement, it doesn't apply to every player all the time, but it's reasonable. Tarson asked, and again, he didn't seem to take offense. Why are you all so worked up over something so innocuous?
Daniel Lee's outburst was childish and completely unprofessional. Saying 'fuck' during a game you aren't aware will be streamed (previous round was not, announcement didn't come until after the games were played. Read the posts in this thread, read the posts, read them, fuck.) is not the same as losing your shit during a live stream you're supposed to be commentating and then pouting for an extended duration of time, leaving your co-caster to pick up the slack. Mad fucking props to Tasteless for being the real deal and carrying that trainwreck successfully to station. By the way, if you quote this post and intend to respond, please place the word "Muffin-top" in your post somewhere so I can tell you actually read what I wrote and therefore enjoy wasting as much time as I evidently do. And like I said, at the beginning of this gigantic worthless post (which mostly serves as something to fill my idle time, also I like yelling at people look at me look at me), Daniel Lee sure got a pair on him.
if anyone said all this more eloquently and delicately than I did between the page I saw the quoted post on and this page: how dare you?!
On December 24 2009 15:02 Piste wrote: I wonder if Ret still stays in korea if he doesn't make it.
On December 24 2009 14:50 Zozma wrote:
On December 24 2009 14:48 d(O.o)a wrote:
On December 24 2009 14:45 captainwaffles wrote: speaking of courage, has Idra won a courage yet? I don't remember seeing a buzz around that...
Yes a LONG LONG time ago.
I don't think Idra ever won courage... didn't he get a license from eStro?
he got it from estro. I think it was a prize for inhouse tournament.
Yeah and according to Daniel Lee he was on his knees begging for it. edit: oh and how rude of me!
Very best of luck Ret! On behalf of the entire community - we'd be so psyched to have you formally go pro!
This is probably at the same time Idra said fuck on stream and daniel lee ruined the entire cast by bitching over something so stupid. Also half the community said Tarson got bmed(was it tarson or sawyer?) when tarson said Gl in the rest of the tourney right after.
On June 07 2009 06:59 Sadistx wrote: Gotta love how the last 25 pages are discussing a bunch of lines in a game chat, and I thought the worst drama queens were on the EVE-online forums. Apparently not.
Gotta love SDM's hypocrisy though - he blames Idra for chatting in game and then starts acting like a total whiny 10 year old kid - "waaaah waaah Idra should worship me forever, waaah waaah he typed some stuff and this made me mad, so I'm not going to cast the gameeee".
Maybe he should have professionally confronted him after the game or just imposed rules for the next ro ?
Yeah it seriously ruined the entire cast, tasteless was trying but daniel just killed the entire thing
Imagine how SDM must feel though. He brought Idra over, handed him a progamer license without winning courage (something completely unheard of) and after bending over backwards like this Idra is over the top disrespectful to his opponents and bm. Its incredibly embarrassing for SDM, especially in a culture where respect is so important. He stuck his neck out for Idra and this is how he acts? Its not even trash talking or silly like FBH, its downright malicious and self-absorbed, which is pretty unacceptable for somebody who genuinely is the worst progamer in Korea.
lol i'm gonna respond to this one post because i picked it out of a crowd. sorry Idle you are the whipping boy today
First let me say that my opinion of Daniel Lee has not changed. There was a positive in Daniel Lee having the balls to freak out mid-broadcast just because he was pissed off that equaled out the negative of Daniel Lee acting like a stupid fucking child and saying a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit about Idra. Allow me to explain why this is unsubstantiated bullshit.
Once upon there was a starcraft tournament for North American players. A wondrous prize was announced, a tip to Korea to live with the eSTRO team and become a real progamer! A young man named Idra entered, and he just so happened to win. Fancy that! Out of a field of competitors with equal chances to win this prize based entirely around their gameplay in that particular tournament, Idra was chosen. Daniel Lee chose Idra from 16 players.
But all was not as it seemed in the StarCraft motherland. You know what Idra did when he got to Korea? He played on iccup. That's all. Once the novelty of a white guy in the room wore off, all of the eSTRO B team players refused to play with Idra. This is well documented on TL, go look around. Do a little fucking research, know what you're talking about before you open your goddamned mouth.
If Daniel Lee is Idra's savior, the man who saved Idra from the horrible clutches of nonkorean newbiness, what should Daniel Lee have done about the situation Idra found himself in, playing idiots on iccup, lacking any alternative because his new teammates wouldn't play him? Daniel Lee should have done something about that, if Daniel Lee is Idra's savior and not the engineer of a PR stunt. Daniel Lee didn't do a goddamned thing.
You want to know who Idra's savior was? Sean motherfucking Oh. Yeah, the CJ coach. After Idra was given a license, something that happens all the fuckin' time, as each team can give a license to two players per year if they want those players on the team and they haven't won courage, a trade happens. Idra certainly did not beg for his progaming license, whether he was handed the license for gameplay or to further the PR stunt & solidify the perception of Daniel Lee as the shining force bridging the gap between Korea and the rest of the world is irrelevant. For how big an expert on Idra and his mannerisms you all seem to think you are, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Sean Oh and Idra met at Blizzcon, and shortly after, Idra joined the CJ B team.
Now, eSTRO has a pretty bad B team. Their A team ain't too hot, for that matter. They're a bottom-of-the-barrel team. CJ, however, has far and away the strongest B team of ANY progaming team. That's where Idra found himself. From there, he improved his gameplay legitimately by playing against good players for ten hours a day. Daniel Lee's involvement with Idra began with hosting a tournament that Idra won, and ended with Idra being shipped to CJ after playing nothing but iccup as a member of a progaming team house for several months. And Daniel Lee handed everything to Idra on a silver platter? Daniel fucking Lee MADE Idra? What a joke.
Now, as for Idra and BM:
Idra is an angry fucking nerd. He really is. He hates losing, he hates the Protoss, he hates bad players, he hates just about everything except winning in TvZ. He says a lot of dumb shit for no reason, and all of his friends give him more hell about it than any of you with your passive-aggressive, pathetic comments about how Idra should leave Korea and kill himself or whatever. Idra does not represent foreigners. Idra speaks bluntly with latent rage about StarCraft and plays 10 hours a day. Incidents have happened before and will undoubtedly happen again. This does not matter, because Idra doesn't owe and of you a goddamned thing. Do you really think Idra would go on Korean tv and badmouth some progamer? Of course not, because those games matter relevant to his position & his career. Don't be so naive to think that the CJ team, other progamers who have a vague idea who he is, and his coaches don't know about his mannerisms. Don't be so naive to think that they really give two shits about it. Stork used to talk shit to anyone and everyone when he was a B teamer, no one cares. iloveoov used to be the rudest dude alive, no one cares. Why the hell do you all care? What's wrong with you? Be fans of the game, not some retarded idealogy of "what a progamer should be".
What Idra said to Tarson was not bad manner. Oh golly gee, jiminy cripes, oh whillikers, shock and horror! He said the F word!!!! He dared to suggest that foreign terrans don't have a rhyme & reason in their cheeses that is comparable to korean pros!!!! He dared to suggest that foreign terrans generally cheese with the intent of carrying out a specific attack regardless of what the opponent does!!!! He DARED to suggest that foreign players are not nearly as good at cheesing in TvT as korean pros and therefore do it all fuckin wierd with strange results!!!! HOW DARE YOU IDRA?
Come on. What Idra said is generally true & was not intended to be rude or demeaning at all. Tarson certainly didn't seem to take offense. There is a clear difference between Korean professional TvT cheese and nonkorean TvT cheese. Pro TvT cheese is fucking surgical, foreign TvT cheese is totally haphazard. It's completely fair for Idra to say that he doesn't FE against foreigners in TvT because he has no idea how to play against them. He is saying that he cannot fast expand because of all the wierd and unpredictable shit foreign Terrans do in the matchup, and there is a higher probability that he will die if he chooses to FE rather than open safer and let his mechanics carry him. This is a reasonable statement and is what you would see if you read between the lines from the perspective of someone who isn't a 14 year old mouth-breathing caveman. This is not an absolute statement, it doesn't apply to every player all the time, but it's reasonable. Tarson asked, and again, he didn't seem to take offense. Why are you all so worked up over something so innocuous?
Daniel Lee's outburst was childish and completely unprofessional. Saying 'fuck' during a game you aren't aware will be streamed (previous round was not, announcement didn't come until after the games were played. Read the posts in this thread, read the posts, read them, fuck.) is not the same as losing your shit during a live stream you're supposed to be commentating and then pouting for an extended duration of time, leaving your co-caster to pick up the slack. Mad fucking props to Tasteless for being the real deal and carrying that trainwreck successfully to station. By the way, if you quote this post and intend to respond, please place the word "Muffin-top" in your post somewhere so I can tell you actually read what I wrote and therefore enjoy wasting as much time as I evidently do. And like I said, at the beginning of this gigantic worthless post (which mostly serves as something to fill my idle time, also I like yelling at people look at me look at me), Daniel Lee sure got a pair on him.
if anyone said all this more eloquently and delicately than I did between the page I saw the quoted post on and this page: how dare you?!
Muffin Top
How did I miss this post in the past? You just speak the truth, I really can't agree more on that.
On December 24 2009 17:37 Chill wrote: 밥오 = bab o = babo = stupid
actually 바보 (qkqh)
Food5 = 밥오.Stupid = 바보 dont correct me if im not wrong.
i ignored the food part, i don't care about some guy's id, but apparently you have a strange definition of an equals sign, so let me tell you what you said wrong, with less bloat:
On December 24 2009 17:37 Chill wrote: 밥오 = stupid
And I can't believe all this shit about Idra is being dug up again. He rapes everybody's face at the present, it was already pointless to argue about all the license shit back then and it's become just about totally fucking retarded now.
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
Sounds plausible enough. As far a i know a team can only give a certain number on licenses a year and i can imagine CJ didn't want to waste one for Idra. They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not, they just wanted to have a white face sitting around in the basement.
On December 25 2009 09:52 haster27 wrote: (epic climax theme)
Whenever you are down, when you believe the license at the tree is too far out of reach..
The wish and dreams of nerdlings around the world will gather into the heart of single individual to form...
CAPTAIN RET!!!
ps. No, I have no idea what bs I am speaking about -_-;; by the way, good luck.
O CAPTAIN! O captain! Your fearful trip has begun; The zerg has weather'd every foreigner, the prize you sought is but half won; The license is near, the gg's I hear, the people all exulting, While lurker spines the marine line, the vessel scourged and exploding: But O overmind! overmind! overmind! O the splattered mess of red, Where on the ground another terran lies, Fallen cold and dead.
O Captain! My Captain! Rise up and hear your gg's; Rise up—for you the game is played—for you the protoss cheese; For you cheerfuls and dark-blue stars—for you the forums a-crowding; For you they call, the posting mass, their eager faces watching; Here Captain! dear Jos! This hand atop your keys It is some dream that in the game, You won your license with ease.
My captain does not answer, his eyes are focused and strong; My Artosis feels his camera, he has charged his battery long; The zerg is practice'd hard and fast, its voyage nearly done; From fearful nerd, the victor zerg, aims to have license won; Exult, O netzens, and blossom, O forums! And I, with steady head, Refresh the page my captain plays And post constantly in this thread.
On December 25 2009 09:52 haster27 wrote: (epic climax theme)
Whenever you are down, when you believe the license at the tree is too far out of reach..
The wish and dreams of nerdlings around the world will gather into the heart of single individual to form...
CAPTAIN RET!!!
ps. No, I have no idea what bs I am speaking about -_-;; by the way, good luck.
O CAPTAIN! O captain! Your fearful trip has begun; The zerg has weather'd every foreigner, the prize you sought is but half won; The license is near, the gg's I hear, the people all exulting, While lurker spines the marine line, the vessel scourged and exploding: But O overmind! overmind! overmind! O the splattered mess of red, Where on the ground another terran lies, Fallen cold and dead.
O Captain! My Captain! Rise up and hear your gg's; Rise up—for you the game is played—for you the protoss cheese; For you cheerfuls and dark-blue stars—for you the forums a-crowding; For you they call, the posting mass, their eager faces watching; Here Captain! dear Jos! This hand atop your keys It is some dream that in the game, You won your license with ease.
My captain does not answer, his eyes are focused and strong; My Artosis feels his camera, he has charged his battery long; The zerg is practice'd hard and fast, its voyage nearly done; From fearful nerd, the victor zerg, aims to have license won; Exult, O netzens, and blossom, O forums! And I, with steady head, Refresh the page my captain plays And post constantly in this thread.
The first post was updated with 'notable players' I like how only two of those notable ones were Terran *sad face* Need to see more gosu Terran players. Then again I can't complain because there are 4 Terrans still in MSL lol
Any words from ret himself? Last time he said he wasn't on par with those players yet. Honestly, I don't believe you can make big enough progress during just one month. Moreover when you are adjusting to another playing style (I guess?)
My bad. I didn't read the op. I just read "Ret at Courage" and assumed Ret was at Courage. After looking at the last few pages to see how was doing and finding nothing I thought I'd ask.
Trivia! Did you know two of the last edition of Courage's winners (kitty[gm] and rising[kal]) took them more than two years to attain a license? I found their names on the sign-up lists for the 37th Courage, and this current one is the 56th. It's definitely tough.[/QUOTE]
Actually Risking[Kal] hasnt won courage he lost to Hero[KaS] in final match o,o
On December 27 2009 06:34 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I really wish they would just make it a wrestling contest and save ret the time of having to prove that he's a total badass at SC.
That aside, GL man!
he'd be more likely to win a sumo wrestling contest
On December 27 2009 06:34 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I really wish they would just make it a wrestling contest and save ret the time of having to prove that he's a total badass at SC.
That aside, GL man!
he'd be more likely to win a sumo wrestling contest
On December 27 2009 06:34 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I really wish they would just make it a wrestling contest and save ret the time of having to prove that he's a total badass at SC.
That aside, GL man!
Do not worry son. ret will prevail and prove his might by crushing anyone silly enough to be opposing the mighty zerg.
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not.
Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not.
Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
On December 27 2009 08:22 scwizard wrote: Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
lol yeah. And CJ only got Idra because he's so popular and so well-liked by all the foreign SC fans.
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not.
Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
You know, there are many levels of how "good" a starcraft player can be and to me there is also a certain level of respect i have for players which is not proportional zu their skill. Here is a graphic to explain it to you:
A: Just random people playing Sc for fun on ICC. Nothing special.
B: Those are people who are kinda good on foreigner level but do not really succeed in winning anything of meaning. People like Sawyer or Closer. You may have heard thei names or not, noone cares.
C: These are the top foreigners, they play in their free time and are still really good. they win money with a computer game they are playing for fun basicly. The best known members of this category are Mondragon and White-Ra. D: Those are people who are pros in korea who sacrifice everything in their lives to play a computer game. And compared to others on their level they suck badly. These people should be ashamed of breathing the air away from people who do something in this world. They are wasting their lives in a freakin basement. they dont succeed neither in SC nor in real life. Examples: Idra and the rest of the trash with a one or even two digit Kespa rank. E: This group belongs to pros who are kinda good, to players who maype appear in PL, but do not manage to win or ger somewhat far in the Starleagues. Examples: Sea, around half of the ACE-team. F: Here are the real good pros. People who earn a lot of money just because they are good at something that is irrelevant in life. They really are the elite. Examples: Stork, JD, the bonjwas etc.
This is where my disrespect for idra comes from. This and his arrogance. He seriously thinks he can make fun of foreigners who are worse than him, which is just ridiculous give the fact that his life just consists a game u can burn on a CD.
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not.
Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
You know, there are many levels of how "good" a starcraft player can be and to me there is also a certain level of respect i have for players which is not proportional zu their skill. Here is a graphic to explain it to you:
A: Just random people playing Sc for fun on ICC. Nothing special.
B: Those are people who are kinda good on foreigner level but do not really succeed in winning anything of meaning. People like Sawyer or Closer. You may have heard thei names or not, noone cares.
C: These are the top foreigners, they play in their free time and are still really good. they win money with a computer game they are playing for fun basicly. The best known members of this category are Mondragon and White-Ra. D: Those are people who are pros in korea who sacrifice everything in their lives to play a computer game. And compared to others on their level they suck badly. These people should be ashamed of breathing the air away from people who do something in this world. They are wasting their lives in a freakin basement. they dont succeed neither in SC nor in real life. Examples: Idra and the rest of the trash with a one or even two digit Kespa rank. E: This group belongs to pros who are kinda good, to players who maype appear in PL, but do not manage to win or ger somewhat far in the Starleagues. Examples: Sea, around half of the ACE-team. F: Here are the real good pros. People who earn a lot of money just because they are good at something that is irrelevant in life. They really are the elite. Examples: Stork, JD, the bonjwas etc.
This is where my disrespect for idra comes from. This and his arrogance. He seriously thinks he can make fun of foreigners who are worse than him, which is just ridiculous give the fact that his life just consists a game u can burn on a CD.
lol @ the graph
but really, what makes something "relevant" in life? it seems you're just asserting your own opinion about computer games. what makes playing SC any "less relevant" than doing some other job? not everyone can be einstein or mozart :/
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not.
Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
You know, there are many levels of how "good" a starcraft player can be and to me there is also a certain level of respect i have for players which is not proportional zu their skill. Here is a graphic to explain it to you:
A: Just random people playing Sc for fun on ICC. Nothing special.
B: Those are people who are kinda good on foreigner level but do not really succeed in winning anything of meaning. People like Sawyer or Closer. You may have heard thei names or not, noone cares.
C: These are the top foreigners, they play in their free time and are still really good. they win money with a computer game they are playing for fun basicly. The best known members of this category are Mondragon and White-Ra. D: Those are people who are pros in korea who sacrifice everything in their lives to play a computer game. And compared to others on their level they suck badly. These people should be ashamed of breathing the air away from people who do something in this world. They are wasting their lives in a freakin basement. they dont succeed neither in SC nor in real life. Examples: Idra and the rest of the trash with a one or even two digit Kespa rank. E: This group belongs to pros who are kinda good, to players who maype appear in PL, but do not manage to win or ger somewhat far in the Starleagues. Examples: Sea, around half of the ACE-team. F: Here are the real good pros. People who earn a lot of money just because they are good at something that is irrelevant in life. They really are the elite. Examples: Stork, JD, the bonjwas etc.
This is where my disrespect for idra comes from. This and his arrogance. He seriously thinks he can make fun of foreigners who are worse than him, which is just ridiculous give the fact that his life just consists a game u can burn on a CD.
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not.
Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
You know, there are many levels of how "good" a starcraft player can be and to me there is also a certain level of respect i have for players which is not proportional zu their skill. Here is a graphic to explain it to you:
A: Just random people playing Sc for fun on ICC. Nothing special.
B: Those are people who are kinda good on foreigner level but do not really succeed in winning anything of meaning. People like Sawyer or Closer. You may have heard thei names or not, noone cares.
C: These are the top foreigners, they play in their free time and are still really good. they win money with a computer game they are playing for fun basicly. The best known members of this category are Mondragon and White-Ra. D: Those are people who are pros in korea who sacrifice everything in their lives to play a computer game. And compared to others on their level they suck badly. These people should be ashamed of breathing the air away from people who do something in this world. They are wasting their lives in a freakin basement. they dont succeed neither in SC nor in real life. Examples: Idra and the rest of the trash with a one or even two digit Kespa rank. E: This group belongs to pros who are kinda good, to players who maype appear in PL, but do not manage to win or ger somewhat far in the Starleagues. Examples: Sea, around half of the ACE-team. F: Here are the real good pros. People who earn a lot of money just because they are good at something that is irrelevant in life. They really are the elite. Examples: Stork, JD, the bonjwas etc.
This is where my disrespect for idra comes from. This and his arrogance. He seriously thinks he can make fun of foreigners who are worse than him, which is just ridiculous give the fact that his life just consists a game u can burn on a CD.
lol @ the graph
but really, what makes something "relevant" in life? it seems you're just asserting your own opinion about computer games. what makes playing SC any "less relevant" than doing some other job? not everyone can be einstein or mozart :/
SC is much like any other sport. People can only live from it because it is entertainment. The same applies to making movies or writing songs. But if you suck at what you do, you should stop an do something else. But just imagine when a person dies, what could you say about them to someone who didnt know him/her?
Jimmy Page - this guy played the solo of stairway to heaven
Health ledger - oh, this guy died right after he played the best villain ever in a movie
Ali Amuchdabjan - oh, he sold tasty kebabs until he died.
Greg Fields - Oh ... well ... this one is funny ... he died without doing a single thing.
On December 25 2009 00:45 Glaucus wrote: You are saying you are sure Estro didn't know CJ wanted Idra before they gave him a license?
They didn't get Idra because he is a good player - he is obviously not.
Yeah IdrA sucks at starcraft, and its super obvious to pros such as yourself. Only reason he got to A+ was because he payed off his teammates to get them to play for him *eyeroll*
You know, there are many levels of how "good" a starcraft player can be and to me there is also a certain level of respect i have for players which is not proportional zu their skill. Here is a graphic to explain it to you:
A: Just random people playing Sc for fun on ICC. Nothing special.
B: Those are people who are kinda good on foreigner level but do not really succeed in winning anything of meaning. People like Sawyer or Closer. You may have heard thei names or not, noone cares.
C: These are the top foreigners, they play in their free time and are still really good. they win money with a computer game they are playing for fun basicly. The best known members of this category are Mondragon and White-Ra. D: Those are people who are pros in korea who sacrifice everything in their lives to play a computer game. And compared to others on their level they suck badly. These people should be ashamed of breathing the air away from people who do something in this world. They are wasting their lives in a freakin basement. they dont succeed neither in SC nor in real life. Examples: Idra and the rest of the trash with a one or even two digit Kespa rank. E: This group belongs to pros who are kinda good, to players who maype appear in PL, but do not manage to win or ger somewhat far in the Starleagues. Examples: Sea, around half of the ACE-team. F: Here are the real good pros. People who earn a lot of money just because they are good at something that is irrelevant in life. They really are the elite. Examples: Stork, JD, the bonjwas etc.
This is where my disrespect for idra comes from. This and his arrogance. He seriously thinks he can make fun of foreigners who are worse than him, which is just ridiculous give the fact that his life just consists a game u can burn on a CD.
lol @ the graph
but really, what makes something "relevant" in life? it seems you're just asserting your own opinion about computer games. what makes playing SC any "less relevant" than doing some other job? not everyone can be einstein or mozart :/
SC is much like any other sport. People can only live from it because it is entertainment. The same applies to making movies or writing songs. But if you suck at what you do, you should stop an do something else. But just imagine when a person dies, what could you say about them to someone who didnt know him/her?
Jimmy Page - this guy played the solo of stairway to heaven
Health ledger - oh, this guy died right after he played the best villain ever in a movie
Ali Amuchdabjan - oh, he sold tasty kebabs until he died.
Greg Fields - Oh ... well ... this one is funny ... he died without doing a single thing.
You forgot someone....
FTB - This guy died making a graph about who he respects that plays Starcraft on Teamliquid.net. Also, everyone though he was a troll.
People taking a financial risk by investing experience in esports deserve respect in at least one sense. I could definitely go to law school after undergrad and that would get a lot of respect, and a lot money if that's what I wanted from it, but going the esports route would be much more challenging. Lucky for me I have a wife in medical school, so worst case scenario I become a househusband rofl. But other people are making even bigger sacrifices and taking bigger risks, knowing that mainstream morals will condemn their choices, but without people like that, the industry does not stand a chance. These people aren't dumb nor is esports their only option, they are just doing something awesome IMO :D
On December 27 2009 10:56 Liquid`NonY wrote: People taking a financial risk by investing experience in esports deserve respect in at least one sense. I could definitely go to law school after undergrad and that would get a lot of respect, and a lot money if that's what I wanted from it, but going the esports route would be much more challenging. Lucky for me I have a wife in medical school, so worst case scenario I become a househusband rofl. But other people are making even bigger sacrifices and taking bigger risks, knowing that mainstream morals will condemn their choices, but without people like that, the industry does not stand a chance. These people aren't dumb nor is esports their only option, they are just doing something awesome IMO :D
anyway gl ret!!!
Where's the blog 'bout wedding and Hawaii!?!?!?! > On topic: GL ret!
You know, there are many levels of how "good" a forum poster can be and to me there is also a certain level of respect i have for posters which is not proportional zu their skill. Here is a graphic to explain it to you:
A: Just random people posting for fun on starcraft forums. Nothing special.
B: Those are people who are kinda good on a forum posting level but do not really succeed in posting anything of meaning. People like Slaughter or Nicoaldo. You may have heard thei names or not, noone cares.
C: These are the top leisurely posters, they post in their free time and are still really good. they win icons with a guessing game called liquibition they are playing for fun basicly. The best known members of this category are iNcontroL and Midian. D: Those are people who are pros in posting who sacrifice everything in their lives to post their opinions on a computer game. And compared to others on their level they suck badly. These people should be ashamed of breathing the air away from people who do something in this world. They are wasting their lives in a freakin basement. they dont succeed neither in posting nor in real life. Examples: ftb and the rest of the trash with a one or even two digit post counts. E: This group belongs to dedicated posters who are kinda good, to posters who maype appear in sticky threads, but do not manage to win or ger somewhat far in the hot threads. Examples: Cambium, around half of the [Pandemic] Team. F: Here are the real good posters. People who earn a lot of money just because they are good at something that is irrelevant in life. They really are the elite. Examples: Artosis, SirTasteless, the admins etc.
This is where my disrespect for ftb comes from. This and his arrogance. He seriously thinks he can make fun of posters who are worse than him, which is just ridiculous give the fact that his life just consists of posting his useless opinions about a game u can burn on a CD.
On December 27 2009 11:17 G5 wrote: You know, there are many levels of how "good" a forum poster can be and to me there is also a certain level of respect i have for posters which is not proportional zu their skill. Here is a graphic to explain it to you:
A: Just random people posting for fun on starcraft forums. Nothing special.
B: Those are people who are kinda good on a forum posting level but do not really succeed in posting anything of meaning. People like Slaughter or Nicoaldo. You may have heard thei names or not, noone cares.
C: These are the top leisurely posters, they post in their free time and are still really good. they win icons with a guessing game called liquibition they are playing for fun basicly. The best known members of this category are iNcontroL and Midian. D: Those are people who are pros in posting who sacrifice everything in their lives to post their opinions on a computer game. And compared to others on their level they suck badly. These people should be ashamed of breathing the air away from people who do something in this world. They are wasting their lives in a freakin basement. they dont succeed neither in posting nor in real life. Examples: ftb and the rest of the trash with a one or even two digit post counts. E: This group belongs to dedicated posters who are kinda good, to posters who maype appear in sticky threads, but do not manage to win or ger somewhat far in the hot threads. Examples: Cambium, around half of the [Pandemic] Team. F: Here are the real good posters. People who earn a lot of money just because they are good at something that is irrelevant in life. They really are the elite. Examples: Artosis, SirTasteless, the admins etc.
This is where my disrespect for ftb comes from. This and his arrogance. He seriously thinks he can make fun of posters who are worse than him, which is just ridiculous give the fact that his life just consists of posting his useless opinions about a game u can burn on a CD.
Even though I have little posts, and I'm placed in the boat with ftb, I don't care
i would argue, G5, that you need people to post things that don't have meaning to give those posts that are amazing true meaning. sort of like how there isn't a good without an evil. you need a basis for comparison. nice post, by the way.
On December 27 2009 11:44 Lachrymose wrote: i'm trying to figure out group D. professional posters, sacrificing their lives to post, live in a basement, have no real life...
such a disappointment. Ret are you going to attend the next Courage or will you leave Korea? In a interview on gosugamers you mentioned you are not sure if your going to stay in Korea because a lot of stuff is going on and that you will see how you do in this Courage....
On December 27 2009 12:10 zergpower123 wrote: such a disappointment. Ret are you going to attend the next Courage or will you leave Korea? In a interview on gosugamers you mentioned you are not sure if your going to stay in Korea because a lot of stuff is going on and that you will see how you do in this Courage....
I hope you stay in Korea.......
I hope so too, but more than that I hope he doesn't miss out on some big opportunity because he stays.
Too bad jos, in either case, keep practicing hard and stay dedicated. We all know you have what it takes to make it, you just need time to develop like every aspiring pro-gamer. Like flash said, people shouldn't think of him as just beeing gifted, he just worked very hard to get where he is now.
We'll be excited monkeys every time you'll go to courage, just don't let the pressure get to you to win, we'll cheer regardless =]
Happy holidays, and more ret-tening of koreans in the new year!
realistically this is his first "real" courage, considering he was in the estro house the last time for like a week. Hopefully he'll stick to it, pass courage or be given a license. Whatever, would suck if he came and just left after a short period of time.
On December 27 2009 10:56 Liquid`NonY wrote: People taking a financial risk by investing experience in esports deserve respect in at least one sense. I could definitely go to law school after undergrad and that would get a lot of respect, and a lot money if that's what I wanted from it, but going the esports route would be much more challenging. Lucky for me I have a wife in medical school, so worst case scenario I become a househusband rofl. But other people are making even bigger sacrifices and taking bigger risks, knowing that mainstream morals will condemn their choices, but without people like that, the industry does not stand a chance. These people aren't dumb nor is esports their only option, they are just doing something awesome IMO :D
anyway gl ret!!!
nooooo nony plz dont be a house husband. With your talent the world deserves something great out of you
On December 27 2009 10:56 Liquid`NonY wrote: People taking a financial risk by investing experience in esports deserve respect in at least one sense. I could definitely go to law school after undergrad and that would get a lot of respect, and a lot money if that's what I wanted from it, but going the esports route would be much more challenging. Lucky for me I have a wife in medical school, so worst case scenario I become a househusband rofl. But other people are making even bigger sacrifices and taking bigger risks, knowing that mainstream morals will condemn their choices, but without people like that, the industry does not stand a chance. These people aren't dumb nor is esports their only option, they are just doing something awesome IMO :D
anyway gl ret!!!
nooooo nony plz dont be a house husband. With your talent the world deserves something great out of you
On December 27 2009 12:13 Loser777 wrote: How much harder has courage gotten since Nony played?
I can't imagine it's gotten too much harder except for the variation in venue/city and change in number of players in the event itself.
I think I remember hearing about a format change that increases the difficulty. Like fewer players make it or something...
It's still groups of 64 single elimination. The only thing I can see that has changed is that it's held on both Saturday and Sunday in Seoul, and there is a Courage held out of Seoul once on a Sunday.
So what if Ret lost. Realistically he wouldn't be able to use a Semi-pro license for a while anyways. As long as he works hard and improves in the Estro house he will get that license eventually.
On December 27 2009 13:16 Alethios wrote: Just out of interest, sorry for not knowing this.
Why is IdrA not competing in these tournaments?
Idra got picked up by eSTRO (which automactially means getting pro status, each team can take any 2 or something like that every year). He then transfered to CJ.
On December 27 2009 13:16 Alethios wrote: Just out of interest, sorry for not knowing this.
Why is IdrA not competing in these tournaments?
Idra got picked up by eSTRO (which automactially means getting pro status, each team can take any 2 or something like that every year). He then transfered to CJ.
On December 27 2009 13:16 Alethios wrote: Just out of interest, sorry for not knowing this.
Why is IdrA not competing in these tournaments?
Idra got picked up by eSTRO (which automactially means getting pro status, each team can take any 2 or something like that every year). He then transfered to CJ.
your wrong. He got pro before he transferred to CJ iirc. or i'm wrong. weeee.
On December 27 2009 13:16 Alethios wrote: Just out of interest, sorry for not knowing this.
Why is IdrA not competing in these tournaments?
Idra got picked up by eSTRO (which automactially means getting pro status, each team can take any 2 or something like that every year). He then transfered to CJ.
your wrong. He got pro before he transferred to CJ iirc. or i'm wrong. weeee.
What's ret going to do? I don't think hoping for lucky draws is going to cut it, if he wants to make it he should be so good he can win a bo3 against anyone entering. If his opponents are good, he has to be better. Get better and show them you deserve the courage license, ret.
On December 27 2009 16:28 igotmyown wrote: What's ret going to do? I don't think hoping for lucky draws is going to cut it, if he wants to make it he should be so good he can win a bo3 against anyone entering. If his opponents are good, he has to be better. Get better and show them you deserve the courage license, ret.
LOL great advice. I guess ret will have to change his plan of staying in a foreign conutry, not practicing, and hoping to run into 7 newbies every month. Great advice.
Seriously though, Ret's growing stronger with his every attempt at the pro license. If he doesn't give up I'm sure it'll show in his results. Altough I doubt he'll win courage any time soon, it's nowhere near as easy as some people make it seem. Ret might be considered THE top foreigner (along with Idra), but in Korea, skillwise, there are hundreds of Rets
he took a game in his worst matchup off of a "semi-pro"(?) south korean zerg... i'd like to see him get a ZvP next time (if there is one) to boost his confidence before he has to zvz
On December 27 2009 17:44 toopham wrote: better train that zvz of his. he'll need it for TSL anyways.
Follow Koll's way. Play only koreans and stop noob bashing.
his an estro practice partner, im sure he plays plenty of koreans
Ret said last week on his stream that nobody on estro plays with him.
Well idra and nony weren't happy there ..... I can't imagine anyones longterm plan is to play for estro ...
I hope that this isn't true and he gets to play with them plenty though .......
transfer to cj *crosses fingers*
Ya.
I knew something was wrong with estro when nony bounced so bloody quickly.... and idra the most monitone gamer of all time was giddy about leaving and not just playing on iccup everyday.
On December 27 2009 17:44 toopham wrote: better train that zvz of his. he'll need it for TSL anyways.
Follow Koll's way. Play only koreans and stop noob bashing.
his an estro practice partner, im sure he plays plenty of koreans
Ret said last week on his stream that nobody on estro plays with him.
the fuck?
Ret should go and talk with the management about this imo. its not like eSTRO is offering him food and a place to live for him to just play on iccup..
God damn Ret don't be another NonY please, go the IdrA way. =] That means no women and thus no happiness, just constant practice and hopefully making it big.. god the progamer life sounds so harsh. :/
On December 27 2009 18:48 Puosu wrote: go the IdrA way. =] That means no women and thus no happiness, just constant practice and hopefully making it big.. god the progamer life sounds so harsh. :/
Yeah I must say, hate him or love him, IdrA I'm sure has had to endure a lot of stupid shit while living in Korea.
I really hope ret is able to pull through in the same way IdrA has. There are simply not enough 'white guys' tearing it up in Korea, and while this may be a rocky start for ret, I really hope he powers through and keeps his head held high.
I honestly hope he doesnt read what igotmyown wrote. Stuff like that can really get to you when he is probably playing SC countless hours every day.
On December 27 2009 19:49 1984 wrote: After seeing ret watching Dexter during practice hours, imo this will soon be over. Hope I'm wrong though.
It's pretty obvious that wasn't during official practice hours, it's not like the coaches allow their players to do that while they're supposed to be working. ._.
And imho. you can't expect him to be practicing 100% of the time he's on the practice place, try playing 10h+ a day yourself for months and see how it feels, especially when you still get raped by the higher tier Koreans.
While I would be disappointed, I don't really see a point in blaming him for it if he did decide to leave, the more I learn about the practice conditions (especially for foreigners) the more I start respecting them for chasing their dreams in conditions like this where achieving their ultimate goal is almost impossible and just to have a chance at it they have to work/think about the game for unholy amount of hours.
Ret said last week on his stream that nobody on estro plays with him.
is this a joke? why da hell is he still there? its pointles to be in korean pro team if you cant practice with them ... tt
No..
I cant' remember which on-demand video it was. one of the recent ones. someone asked him about his "win % in practice" and he said "doesn't exist, they don't play with me".
Ret said last week on his stream that nobody on estro plays with him.
is this a joke? why da hell is he still there? its pointles to be in korean pro team if you cant practice with them ... tt
No..
I cant' remember which on-demand video it was. one of the recent ones. someone asked him about his "win % in practice" and he said "doesn't exist, they don't play with me".
Ret said last week on his stream that nobody on estro plays with him.
is this a joke? why da hell is he still there? its pointles to be in korean pro team if you cant practice with them ... tt
Maybe it's a mix of xenophobia and not trusting Ret after the misunderstanding. So although he may be officially exonerated by the coaching/management staff, there could still be some animosity toward him among the players. Not being able to speak Korean and getting to know the players probably only makes things worse.
If I was in the same situation I'd want the players and management to know that I was brought here to play and that's what I'm going to do. I'd say I have nothing but respect for all of them and only wish to earn their trust and friendship so that we both can benefit from myself being here. You give respect, you get respect.
But, you now, I don't have perfect information on the situation so I what can I say?
Ret said last week on his stream that nobody on estro plays with him.
is this a joke? why da hell is he still there? its pointles to be in korean pro team if you cant practice with them ... tt
No..
I cant' remember which on-demand video it was. one of the recent ones. someone asked him about his "win % in practice" and he said "doesn't exist, they don't play with me".
But you shouldn't even start to get discouraged. The amount of time it takes alot of Koreans to pass courage is huge. Two tries is nothing to be ashamed of.
I wonder if ret is a free agent. If estro are fucking him over it might be worth him putting out feelers to other teams, CJ in particular. estro can't get anything out of having him there if they're not training him or training with him.
Why do all the foreigners start at estro if all we hear about estro is poor treatment of foreigners? First IdrA plays nothing but ICCup all day, now ret. If the Koreans don't want to practice with ret then why is he even on the team? I doubt he's gonna gain anything from just playing ICCup in another country. I for one would be happy for ret if he decided to leave if conditions don't improve. Not everyone has to be like IdrA and survive long enough until you get traded to a worthwhile team.
Obviously this is all a huge assumption, but based off everyone's replies and even some information from ret/other in Korea, I believe something needs to change.
I'm saying good training, hopefully with estro's help, is a lot more valuable than playing a lot with koreans and having a gung ho attitude. Didn't Nony say that they break down your playing style and make it better? With ret's ability, I bet his ceiling with proper training is more than enough to clear courage. Personally my reaction to losing competitively is to see it as an opportunity to better understand my weaknesses, and to plan a way to fix them. If keep trying works for you guys, stick with what works I guess...
On December 27 2009 21:00 sleeepy wrote: Why do all the foreigners start at estro if all we hear about estro is poor treatment of foreigners?
I think it's something like this, for foreigners in general: 1) some guy is accepted without skill to back it up, just cause he's a foreigner, and thus taking place of more skilled Korean 2) language and different mentality and specifically in case of ret: 3) leaked replays (doesn't matter if ret really leaked them) 4) general attitude (like watching Dexter, lol)
Imo the only solution is to play like insane, if estro players don't want to then play iccup, brain, just something and gradually, slowly earn respect, or just quit and go back home. Note: I obviously don't have first-hand experience, so it's all just theory, but I'm pretty much sure it's close to the truth.
Also, why do you kids talk about ret like someone who doesn't read the forum? He's an active member of our community for God's sake. Everything that's written, gets read. Why do you kids who don't have a fucking clue feel the need to analyse and judge a situation you have no idea about? Either wish him the best, encourage him, or don't, but don't try to judge and break down a situation that you have zero idea about. That's just plain ignorant.
Well obviously being on the team and not playing with those guys stinks but I think just railing a good player can be really helpful too, not to mention he can still ask the coaches for advice as well.
On December 27 2009 21:32 Chill wrote: Also, why do you kids talk about ret like someone who doesn't read the forum? He's an active member of our community for God's sake. Everything that's written, gets read. Why do you kids who don't have a fucking clue feel the need to analyse and judge a situation you have no idea about? Either wish him the best, encourage him, or don't, but don't try to judge and break down a situation that you have zero idea about. That's just plain ignorant.
Why so angry?
If reading people's opinions on a situation they really care about bothers you, I'd suggest not reading it at all.
What's the point in inviting someone to Korea then not helping him practice and giving him a shit treatment? Iccup is not enough practice to win courage.
On December 27 2009 21:20 Chill wrote: You guys know he left the estro house right? lol
ret doesn't generally post about his situation. My main source of information is you vs psyonic_reaver drama. Although I am curious what's going on so if you two could stir some shit up I'd appreciate it.
On December 27 2009 21:32 Chill wrote: Also, why do you kids talk about ret like someone who doesn't read the forum? He's an active member of our community for God's sake. Everything that's written, gets read. Why do you kids who don't have a fucking clue feel the need to analyse and judge a situation you have no idea about? Either wish him the best, encourage him, or don't, but don't try to judge and break down a situation that you have zero idea about. That's just plain ignorant.
People speculate because we dont have the first hand info about Ret like you apparently. If you know something just share it, or if its a secret just keep it to yourself and dont get anrgy at people just because you know more.
Can anyone explain to me how the teams do not run out of players? I mean, there are like 10 teams; each team can recruit up to 2 players; there are also 10 tourneys - and 1 player gets the licence? So half of a player per team from tourneys only? And each team can pick up two more? I think ~3 players drop out of each team every year (the "randoms" who never achieve something); how come they dont run out of players with licences?
Also, did the good "new" players (like Jaedong, Flash etc.) participate in courage tourneys? I'm not sure.
For now I think that this whole courage thing is made to discourage people from trying to become pros (even if you get a licence you dont have to be picked up); or maybe it's the opposite - everyone with a licence has a big chance to get drafted because there are few players who have one?
I believe in ret. I believe he will win courage and get a progaming licence. Maybe he won't win the next tourny or the one after that but he will because he has the skill, motivation and dedication to succeed. Except for a select few nobody knows the challenges he is facing and I cannot help you in any practical way but know that you have - whatever you are doing - my full spiritual support.
On December 27 2009 21:32 Chill wrote: Also, why do you kids talk about ret like someone who doesn't read the forum? He's an active member of our community for God's sake. Everything that's written, gets read. Why do you kids who don't have a fucking clue feel the need to analyse and judge a situation you have no idea about? Either wish him the best, encourage him, or don't, but don't try to judge and break down a situation that you have zero idea about. That's just plain ignorant.
because they are fans, followed his situation from the start, are worried when they read something like that he doesnt get training and start speculation till someone gives them information?
this care only that much to encourage but from there on be quiet is not something like people work. maybe robots.
On December 27 2009 21:32 Chill wrote: Also, why do you kids talk about ret like someone who doesn't read the forum? He's an active member of our community for God's sake. Everything that's written, gets read. Why do you kids who don't have a fucking clue feel the need to analyse and judge a situation you have no idea about? Either wish him the best, encourage him, or don't, but don't try to judge and break down a situation that you have zero idea about. That's just plain ignorant.
You really should cut down the attitude. since you've been in Korea you talk like.
1. You are rekrul (and you're far from being rekrul) 2. You are older than us (and trust me, you're not) 3. You know things we don't (which is true but heh, why don't you share the knowledge instead ?)
You talk about community, about sharing, about talking, but look at the agressivity of your posts. You trashtalk people who have been here for a long time just because you know more than them ?
First of all there are 11 corporate teams running, not 10.
Each team can technically have an infinite amount of people living in their household, but for logistical reasons there is a limit to that.
Players who play at Courage are those who are currently classed as 'amateurs'. Some players however, may be living with these pro-teams as 'practice partners' which means they are usually better than any of the other amateurs playing at Courage.
I'm not really sure of the minute details of the bi-annual drafts, but I know that they have two reserved slots for their practice partners, and then three slots they can opt to use to draft whoever they felt performed well at the evaluation matches held before the draft.
The pool of players in Korea is finite, but there can only be so many 'good' players that it's really difficult for pro teams to pick out who is actually good and who are just simply bad.
Yes, Jaedong and Flash did go through Courage once in their careers. IIRC, Flash advanced in the 26th edition of Courage in late 2006. No idea about Jaedong, but I'm pretty sure it was early 2006.
To be honest.... the only players I know who were given the licenses from their pro-team were Draco, Pj and Lx (I think), IdrA and GosI[Season].
Everyone playing in Courage needs a lucky bracket and a lucky streak.
He could have on last time time and he could have won now. You can't expect to need 64 tries of course. But unless you are really good and really lucky it may take up to 8 tries.
The only reason people have no idea about whats going on is because of how incredibly limited information is. And because of that people think they know whats going on because there haven't been any updates. Until now it's not once been mentioned on the forum that ret left the estro house, its pretty unreasonable to suggest people shouldn't discuss something because there's an off chance they might be wrong.
People will speculate on any situation using the information they have. If the information they have is flawed that's not really their fault if they have all the information available to them on a subject and it's ridiculous to expect people to shut up and just say "gl ret" because they don't happen to know every detail of his life.
i dont think you really realize how ridiculously smug these posts come off as, chill
On December 27 2009 22:14 GTR wrote: First of all there are 11 corporate teams running, not 10.
Each team can technically have an infinite amount of people living in their household, but for logistical reasons there is a limit to that.
Players who play at Courage are those who are currently classed as 'amateurs'. Some players however, may be living with these pro-teams as 'practice partners' which means they are usually better than any of the other amateurs playing at Courage.
I'm not really sure of the minute details of the bi-annual drafts, but I know that they have two reserved slots for their practice partners, and then three slots they can opt to use to draft whoever they felt performed well at the evaluation matches held before the draft.
The pool of players in Korea is finite, but there can only be so many 'good' players that it's really difficult for pro teams to pick out who is actually good and who are just simply bad.
Yes, Jaedong and Flash did go through Courage once in their careers. IIRC, Flash advanced in the 26th edition of Courage in late 2006. No idea about Jaedong, but I'm pretty sure it was early 2006.
To be honest.... the only players I know who were given the licenses from their pro-team were Draco, Pj and Lx (I think), IdrA and GosI[Season].
wasn't the whole batch of oldschool progamers given licenses? they weren't around before in the periods they were on top, I kinda doubt they made all of them play courage
you could get progamer status in different ways back then, mingu got his by getting top 8 in an msl or something, and people who became pros that way were grandfathered in when the courage->draft system was adopted
This happens when a foreigners meets a korean in an important tourney, and not in a bnet game, or a sm. Sorry for ret fans but he wont go far, koreans are just in another level (and im talking about tourneys where koreans really care)
Aww that's pretty suckish I guess for Ret. Well good luck with the rest of your life! I think Kolll might actually be someone big in Korea (if he ever go there)
On December 28 2009 00:09 AstraBoy wrote: This happens when a foreigners meets a korean in an important tourney, and not in a bnet game, or a sm. Sorry for ret fans but he wont go far, koreans are just in another level (and im talking about tourneys where koreans really care)
The reason koreans are better is because they got a better system for training players. I can't see why a foreigner can't become as skilled if given the same circumstances, wich is what Idra and ret are given atm. Edit: GOGO! Keep fighting ret and Idra! Show em koreans!
On December 28 2009 00:09 AstraBoy wrote: This happens when a foreigners meets a korean in an important tourney, and not in a bnet game, or a sm. Sorry for ret fans but he wont go far, koreans are just in another level (and im talking about tourneys where koreans really care)
The reason koreans are better is because they got a better system for training players. I can't see why a foreigner can't become as skilled if given the same circumstances, wich is what Idra and ret are given atm. Edit: GOGO! Keep fighting ret and Idra! Show em koreans!
LANGUAGE and you really think, a coach will waste his time paying more attention to a foreigner than a korean?
On December 28 2009 00:09 AstraBoy wrote: This happens when a foreigners meets a korean in an important tourney, and not in a bnet game, or a sm. Sorry for ret fans but he wont go far, koreans are just in another level (and im talking about tourneys where koreans really care)
The reason koreans are better is because they got a better system for training players. I can't see why a foreigner can't become as skilled if given the same circumstances, wich is what Idra and ret are given atm. Edit: GOGO! Keep fighting ret and Idra! Show em koreans!
i doubt that anyone in korea really care about people who goes to courage... maybe for some extra talent... but dont think that oov sit on BN choose one good A+ terran pick him to the house and then he focus on him to get him license. coaches imo care just about people who has already licence...
On December 27 2009 21:32 Chill wrote: Also, why do you kids talk about ret like someone who doesn't read the forum? He's an active member of our community for God's sake. Everything that's written, gets read. Why do you kids who don't have a fucking clue feel the need to analyse and judge a situation you have no idea about? Either wish him the best, encourage him, or don't, but don't try to judge and break down a situation that you have zero idea about. That's just plain ignorant.
People speculate because we dont have the first hand info about Ret like you apparently. If you know something just share it, or if its a secret just keep it to yourself and dont get anrgy at people just because you know more.
Chill's point, I believe, is more about people guessing on subjects that HAVE been covered. Sharing their opinion about the condition or situation is one thing, but when people make stupid guesses that others might read and think of as facts; despite the truth being extremely easy to fine, then people can get pissed.
A lot of people might not know what Chill knows, but there's plenty of speculation in this thread that serves no purpose as it's patently false and dis-proven in this or other popular threads about the subjects at hand. Whether it be repeated questioning of Idra's license, ret's "dexter incident", talking about not getting to play with the practice partners, etc, there are easy to find answers out there and people posting their guesses rather than find the truth gets old fast.
I know Ret doesn't owe any of us anything and I and many others would love to know whats going on with him. However, Ret needs to know that he has TONS of fans and people who like him that at any moment in time if he needed money to stay a little longer in Korea all Ret has to do is explain the situation and BAM instantly people would be donating and sending money to help.
Ret if you can, let us know whats going on and if you need some financial support to chase your dream of being a pro gamer, let us know! WE WILL HELP YOU!!!
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I can understand estro's point of view as well, I am a 24 year old white guy, and my personality is quite different from the average 16 year old korean they bring in, so it must've been somewhat different for them also. Anyhow, I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
Now would be a fine time for Rekrul to start his pro-gaming team he talked about some time ago.
I really hope you get things sorted out somehow, Ret.
edit: And hey, if you decide to pursue your career remember that you've got one advance the others don't: you're from Netherlands thus there's one thing that would instantly be noticed if you would win a courage, or do well in one.
Ret, thanks for the clarification and explanation.
I can see why you don't want to trouble Artosis, etc after staying with him so long.
TEAMLIQUID, lets donate some money to Ret via paypal or something so that Ret can give some of it to Artosis for boarding fee and for practicing at PC Bangs, etc.
I'll put my name on the 1st list of people to donate! Lets help Ret out!!!!!!!!!
Didn't people donate money so someone here could go to WCG? If so, I am sure more will donate to help Ret out!!
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them as well, things I did wrong on my part. But I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of months in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc.
So I'm really not quite sure what to do now.
Oh my, this I did not expect. I am truly sorry things have been the way they are these days I hope everything goes back to normal, and dont loose motivation!
Btw, what is your goal when u accomplish courage? Will it be to get back on estro? another team house?
i dont get it... its not meant offensive.... but u went to korea with knowledge that coach will to give a shit about u? or they told u something else? and then they just change what they said?
problem is foreigners can't live there under proper circumstances. the culture & language barrier alienates any promissing foreign talent resulting not in a skill upswing supported by your caring proteam and manager but in a big slump. only the fewest are capable to live this desolated life - all they wanted is to live their dream and play the heck out of starcraft.
the last time foreigners were really sucessful was the time of the AMD dream team which consisted of 2 foreigners (team wasnt that big back then) and a coach, that was at least capable of speaking the english language and willing to help those players. (different example would be the current chinese pro team (chinese player+chines management)(
well what i'm trying to say is that foreigners wont be half as succesful as elky f.e. unless there is a fulltime pro team with at least 2-3 foreigners that help each other + a good coach. while its to late for a real foreign only pro team it might be a good step for ret to join cj and get in the same team with idra.
On December 28 2009 01:07 Delphi wrote: we should get jos into the Name house! REMEMBER?
If he didn't like the living conditions in the eSTRO house I can't imagine name academy being any better, the koreans probably wouldn't play him more than they did at the eSTRO house and so he would resort to Iccup again..
what makes you think its about financial issues?
uh, because he said that himself just a few posts above?
On December 28 2009 01:01 zergpower123 wrote: Ret, thanks for the clarification and explanation.
I can see why you don't want to trouble Artosis, etc after staying with him so long.
TEAMLIQUID, lets donate some money to Ret via paypal or something so that Ret can give some of it to Artosis for boarding fee and for practicing at PC Bangs, etc.
I'll put my name on the 1st list of people to donate! Lets help Ret out!!!!!!!!!
Didn't people donate money so someone here could go to WCG? If so, I am sure more will donate to help Ret out!!
Lets help Ret!!!
Setting up a paypal acct for donations sounds like a great idea. I'm sure a lot of people are willing to donate a small amount; it's not charity so much as we like the idea of a foreigner trying to make it, like hearing about your situation, and it adds to the entire community.
I just don't understand why exactly everything happened. Ret goes to korea at the invitation of eSTRO, then nobody there will play him? Or did that only happen after the replay scandal thing and the resulting loss of trust?
edit: Can someone also fill me in on what happened with Idra in eSTRO? Apparently it was the same?
I guess this is just further proof that one need to learn the language before attempting something like this. I can imagine it would be way easier to get into the team if you could communicate with them all properly, I mean who can blame them when they don't understand a word?
On December 27 2009 21:32 Chill wrote: Also, why do you kids talk about ret like someone who doesn't read the forum? He's an active member of our community for God's sake. Everything that's written, gets read. Why do you kids who don't have a fucking clue feel the need to analyse and judge a situation you have no idea about? Either wish him the best, encourage him, or don't, but don't try to judge and break down a situation that you have zero idea about. That's just plain ignorant.
People speculate because we dont have the first hand info about Ret like you apparently. If you know something just share it, or if its a secret just keep it to yourself and dont get anrgy at people just because you know more.
I can understand that, but imagine you are in his situation - an active member of the forum who has to come to a thread and read people judging you like this:
On December 28 2009 00:09 AstraBoy wrote: This happens when a foreigners meets a korean in an important tourney, and not in a bnet game, or a sm. Sorry for ret fans but he wont go far, koreans are just in another level (and im talking about tourneys where koreans really care)
The reason koreans are better is because they got a better system for training players. I can't see why a foreigner can't become as skilled if given the same circumstances, wich is what Idra and ret are given atm. Edit: GOGO! Keep fighting ret and Idra! Show em koreans!
LANGUAGE and you really think, a coach will waste his time paying more attention to a foreigner than a korean?
On December 27 2009 21:00 sleeepy wrote: Why do all the foreigners start at estro if all we hear about estro is poor treatment of foreigners?
I think it's something like this, for foreigners in general: 1) some guy is accepted without skill to back it up, just cause he's a foreigner, and thus taking place of more skilled Korean 2) language and different mentality and specifically in case of ret: 3) leaked replays (doesn't matter if ret really leaked them) 4) general attitude (like watching Dexter, lol)
Imo the only solution is to play like insane, if estro players don't want to then play iccup, brain, just something and gradually, slowly earn respect, or just quit and go back home. Note: I obviously don't have first-hand experience, so it's all just theory, but I'm pretty much sure it's close to the truth.
Specifically the second one. I'm not coming here to say "HAHAH I WAS IN KOREA" because I hardly saw Ret the entire time I was there. I don't know shit about what he went through, which is why I keep my mouth shut and tell him to try his best. The above people are talking about him like he isn't a close member of our community and it needs to stop.
On December 28 2009 01:20 mmgoose wrote: ret, you don't look half bad perhaps you could find "work".
If he wants to go that way he might as well go back to Netherlands, its not very probable he can both work and practice enough to be able to compete in courage.
zergpower, taking money from people who love the game just to further fund a journey that has very little prospect right now is just about the last thing I want to do, and shouldn't be rushed into.
I really appreciate your support, but It's not really the appropiate time atm.
On December 28 2009 01:20 mmgoose wrote: ret, you don't look half bad perhaps you could find "work".
If he wants to go that way he might as well go back to Netherlands, its not very probable he can both work and practice enough to be able to compete in courage.
It sounds like language is the barrier. Idra was lucky to have a few people who can coach him in english, ret doesn't have that luxury. Idra tweeted at one point that he was taking classes to learn korean.
Anyone else who has similar aspirations might torrent a copy of rosetta stone and try to get some functional korean under their belt so they can at least request/discuss games.
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
I'm really not sure what to do now.
I know people will propably encourage you and tell you not to give up and to keep trying, but please ret, be realistic. This whole Korea thing was not a very good idea. Even if you somehow manage to get the license, no matter if it is by winning courage or just getting it free from the team, the license is the very first and propably the easiest step. The chances for you to succeed in getting a name among korean progamers is ridiculously low, even if you were korean yourself. There is no offense here, i've been a fan of yours since i first heard of you. But come on, do you want to end up like Idra? His position is maybe the best a foreigner can get after going to Korea - being a B-teamer and dominating the foreign scene. I dont want my favorite SC Player to become just another basement kid on any team. Not every dream does come true, even if you give your best. So do yourself a favour and go back home to once again become the best foreigner instead of becoming one of the worst progamers. Go on with your life and enjoy being the best outside korea. This option is much better than giving up your life to propably not make it big in Korea after all.
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
I'm really not sure what to do now.
I know people will propably encourage you and tell you not to give up and to keep trying, but please ret, be realistic. This whole Korea thing was not a very good idea. Even if you somehow manage to get the license, no matter if it is by winning courage or just getting it free from the team, the license is the very first and propably the easiest step. The chances for you to succeed in getting a name among korean progamers is ridiculously low, even if you were korean yourself. There is no offense here, i've been a fan of yours since i first heard of you. But come on, do you want to end up like Idra? His position is maybe the best a foreigner can get after going to Korea - being a B-teamer and dominating the foreign scene. I dont want my favorite SC Player to become just another basement kid on any team. Not every dream does come true, even if you give your best. So do yourself a favour and go back home to once again become the best foreigner instead of becoming one of the worst progamers. Go on with your life and enjoy being the best outside korea. This option is much better than giving up your life to propably not make it big in Korea after all.
Chill yes we have to speculate because we are not like u that we know everything and to us regular user who does not know any imporatant people we just dont get the info so we speculate... after how long officialy knew that ret was kicked for first time and then another time?
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
I'm really not sure what to do now.
I know people will propably encourage you and tell you not to give up and to keep trying, but please ret, be realistic. This whole Korea thing was not a very good idea. Even if you somehow manage to get the license, no matter if it is by winning courage or just getting it free from the team, the license is the very first and propably the easiest step. The chances for you to succeed in getting a name among korean progamers is ridiculously low, even if you were korean yourself. There is no offense here, i've been a fan of yours since i first heard of you. But come on, do you want to end up like Idra? His position is maybe the best a foreigner can get after going to Korea - being a B-teamer and dominating the foreign scene. I dont want my favorite SC Player to become just another basement kid on any team. Not every dream does come true, even if you give your best. So do yourself a favour and go back home to once again become the best foreigner instead of becoming one of the worst progamers. Go on with your life and enjoy being the best outside korea. This option is much better than giving up your life to propably not make it big in Korea after all.
Hmm. This whole thing actually makes Idra look more awesome (although I don't like him). He's quietly endured all the BS of being a foreigner in Korea while still improving his skills and winning vs weaker Koreans.
Personally, at 24 yrs old, I'd keep SC as a hobby and pursue careers with good financial prospects.
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
I'm really not sure what to do now.
I know people will propably encourage you and tell you not to give up and to keep trying, but please ret, be realistic. This whole Korea thing was not a very good idea. Even if you somehow manage to get the license, no matter if it is by winning courage or just getting it free from the team, the license is the very first and propably the easiest step. The chances for you to succeed in getting a name among korean progamers is ridiculously low, even if you were korean yourself. There is no offense here, i've been a fan of yours since i first heard of you. But come on, do you want to end up like Idra? His position is maybe the best a foreigner can get after going to Korea - being a B-teamer and dominating the foreign scene. I dont want my favorite SC Player to become just another basement kid on any team. Not every dream does come true, even if you give your best. So do yourself a favour and go back home to once again become the best foreigner instead of becoming one of the worst progamers. Go on with your life and enjoy being the best outside korea. This option is much better than giving up your life to propably not make it big in Korea after all.
@Everyone who is going to flame me: I don't care.
This is what I'm talking about, lol.
Just so long as you don't take it out on all of us, with "kid" and "fucking" judiciously sprinkled in, say what you want.
On December 28 2009 01:48 vnlegend wrote: Hmm. This whole thing actually makes Idra look more awesome (although I don't like him). He's quietly endured all the BS of being a foreigner in Korea while still improving his skills and winning vs weaker Koreans.
Personally, at 24 yrs old, I'd keep SC as a hobby and pursue careers with good financial prospects.
Anyone give short cliffs on Idra's korea experience, from arriving at the eSTRO house to moving to CJ and becoming a solid b-teamer?
I don't understand why eSTRO is inviting people and then not allowing them, or encouraging other eSTRO members, to play with them. I used to think eSTRO was cool for taking chances on foreigners, but as more and more is posted it just seems like they don't care and have an extra computer in their house. This doesn't compute with eSTRO's old image as being caring to foreigners.
Actually VNlegend, it doesn't make Idra look more awesome. Just because you endure so much bs you don't have to be BM towards people. You can still treat people right.
How would you like it if the neighborhood bum won the lottery and walked around badmouthing everyone in the community and saying crap?
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
I'm really not sure what to do now.
I know people will propably encourage you and tell you not to give up and to keep trying, but please ret, be realistic. This whole Korea thing was not a very good idea. Even if you somehow manage to get the license, no matter if it is by winning courage or just getting it free from the team, the license is the very first and propably the easiest step. The chances for you to succeed in getting a name among korean progamers is ridiculously low, even if you were korean yourself. There is no offense here, i've been a fan of yours since i first heard of you. But come on, do you want to end up like Idra? His position is maybe the best a foreigner can get after going to Korea - being a B-teamer and dominating the foreign scene. I dont want my favorite SC Player to become just another basement kid on any team. Not every dream does come true, even if you give your best. So do yourself a favour and go back home to once again become the best foreigner instead of becoming one of the worst progamers. Go on with your life and enjoy being the best outside korea. This option is much better than giving up your life to propably not make it big in Korea after all.
@Everyone who is going to flame me: I don't care.
This is what I'm talking about, lol.
This is an example of someone treating ret as if he is not a member of the community? Please explain.
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
I'm really not sure what to do now.
I know people will propably encourage you and tell you not to give up and to keep trying, but please ret, be realistic. This whole Korea thing was not a very good idea. Even if you somehow manage to get the license, no matter if it is by winning courage or just getting it free from the team, the license is the very first and propably the easiest step. The chances for you to succeed in getting a name among korean progamers is ridiculously low, even if you were korean yourself. There is no offense here, i've been a fan of yours since i first heard of you. But come on, do you want to end up like Idra? His position is maybe the best a foreigner can get after going to Korea - being a B-teamer and dominating the foreign scene. I dont want my favorite SC Player to become just another basement kid on any team. Not every dream does come true, even if you give your best. So do yourself a favour and go back home to once again become the best foreigner instead of becoming one of the worst progamers. Go on with your life and enjoy being the best outside korea. This option is much better than giving up your life to propably not make it big in Korea after all.
@Everyone who is going to flame me: I don't care.
This is what I'm talking about, lol.
Just so long as you don't take it out on all of us, with "kid" and "fucking" judiciously sprinkled in, say what you want.
That's fair. I took that tone because I was shocked that people could think it's okay to post like that. Even now many people don't seem to thinking judging a member of our community is an issue.
Noooo ret Why is zvz so hard for you? Is it because you've always been a macro player and zvz is the matchup that requires the least macro? Is it the rock paper scissors bo's? Is it th fact that you can't snipe scourge??? I want answers!! I can't just see ret 1-2 first round and not demand an explanation!
And if what IdrA says is true - that estro treats foreigners like crap - then I salute ret for leaving
On December 28 2009 00:51 ret wrote: just to clarify a few things:
As far as the games went, first game he went 9 pool I went 12 pool. I stopped his lings, then stopped muta/ling harass and won the game off 2 gas mutas eventually.
2nd game he scouted me first, I had went 12 pool again and he went 12 hatch, I couldn't pressure him w/ lings, then made 2 too many drones and lost quickly to non stop lings off 2 hatch.
3rd game ( I believe this one is recorded ) I went 12 hatch and he went 12 pool, he made drones early when he saw my 12 hat, it was on hbr so we actually scouted each other normally, then I failed to do any damage with lings, and when I was about to, 4 mutas popped so I had to pull back 14 lings that i couldnt do anything with, bad judgement on my part. After that I actually decided to get muta armor because I am completly unconfident doing muta / scourge vs muta / scourge with a korean. Because of that however I lost a muta battle a little bit before my upgrade finished, he had more, and his control was far better.
My living conditions have not been anything like what people here think. I have been living with artosis for the past 3 weeks (poor guy has spent maybe 3 days alone in his new appartment he got in august lol), before that I was in the estro house for 2,5 weeks. Before that I was staying at IEF hotels/living with artosis for a month. There were a lot of differences between what estro wanted, what I wanted, and my expectations of living with a team were a lot different than reality. Details are not really important but for one nobody really played with me and the coaches didn't show any interest. It was really hard to stay motivated the past little while, wether it was in estro or sitting in a pc bang, grinding away at iccup for x ammount of hours a day anonomyously and unable to play with friends because of 'lag' has been really difficult. There were a lot of things on the side that really bothered me and them (estro) as well, things I did wrong on my part. Combined with how it all started, me coming over and being 'kicked' out for a month b/c of the false replay thing etc, it was just a far from ideal situation. I couldn't live there anymore, I was miserable there, however I didn't want to give up on the 'progamer dream' either. I'm actually really surprised people didn't catch on when I started streaming again, when you live in a progamer house your schedual is 12 hours 7 days a week so there would never be any time to stream. =P
My plan was to do well at courage and try to find a different team, but since I lost in the 1st round, not once, but twice, I don't know how feasible that is now. Those results look REALLY REALLY bad to just about anyone, not to mention what it does to my self-image and self-confidence when it comes to sc. I am extremely dissapointed with what I have done since I've gone to Korea. I got raped by terror[fou] in IEF, lost twice to people who are not really anything special in courage, and in general am still struggling hard at the A- level on iccup. I don't want to give up, but I also can't just stay for another X ammount of month in Korea troubling artosis with a roommate and spending money playing out of a pc bang and having to pay for daily food etc. Even though my training scheduales have been far from ideal, I have a hard time believing someone like kolll or dimaga would do this bad.
I'm really not sure what to do now.
I know people will propably encourage you and tell you not to give up and to keep trying, but please ret, be realistic. This whole Korea thing was not a very good idea. Even if you somehow manage to get the license, no matter if it is by winning courage or just getting it free from the team, the license is the very first and propably the easiest step. The chances for you to succeed in getting a name among korean progamers is ridiculously low, even if you were korean yourself. There is no offense here, i've been a fan of yours since i first heard of you. But come on, do you want to end up like Idra? His position is maybe the best a foreigner can get after going to Korea - being a B-teamer and dominating the foreign scene. I dont want my favorite SC Player to become just another basement kid on any team. Not every dream does come true, even if you give your best. So do yourself a favour and go back home to once again become the best foreigner instead of becoming one of the worst progamers. Go on with your life and enjoy being the best outside korea. This option is much better than giving up your life to propably not make it big in Korea after all.
@Everyone who is going to flame me: I don't care.
This is what I'm talking about, lol.
This is an example of someone treating ret as if he is not a member of the community? Please explain.
Maybe not exactly that. But it's a good example of someone treating ret like he is stupid and can't think for himself. Even before going to Korea, ret along with all his friends have given this a million times more thought more than this poster or anyone else here.
Ret, you were chosen to go over there because you're one of the best foreigners hands down. Don't forget that. You should consider taking a couple days off from starcraft and having a shitload of fun
Ret... T_T Please stay and keep trying. Don't give up. All it takes is one good day. And don't be so down. You won't win if you're so down... Keep up a happy mentality and win Courage for us.
I think it's pretty obvious that Ret is a smart guy. I don't imagine he's basing his decision on what he reads on the forums. He'll probably ask around and see if there is any interest in giving him a shot. Things don't work out all the time in life - Estro obviously didn't want to give him a fair chance, either do to a mistake or just an outright decision by the management.
I don't think Ret is going to say "God this is hard, I'm quitting." I also don't think he's going to waste years of his life if he doesn't see any light at the end of the tunnel. SC2 is going to come out next year, and if Ret wants to participate in that community as well then he couldn't be in a better position. He'll need to find a way to make some income in the meantime, but its all up to him.
Everyone offering their advice in this thread is probably just wasting his/her time. Just say good luck, and hope for the best. <3<3 Retje!!
I love you no matter what ret! On the other side, its a good position to be in once SCII beta hits (which shouldnt be too far in the future) if you want to become professional at that. And also being able to dominate foreign scene... Im not passing judgement here or anything, im sure you have taken all aspects into consideration during these past months. It would be awesome if CJ somehow could pick up another foreigner so Idra and Ret could hang out together, dunno if thats possible though.
I love ret but all this talk about trying to "protect" him by ONLY giving him encouragement is silly. (the coddling is pretty nauseating). Whenever someone becomes prominent that doesn't exclude them from being talked about both positively and negatively. Very few of us here have been blatantly offensively negative about ret's situation.
All of us obviously continue to wish ret the best in whatever he does be it SC or real life.
well ret, I can't give you any advise. But I get the feeling that cheering for you in korea makes you feel burdened to stick around there. Don't live a joyless life over there on my behalf.
It's still strange how some people think one can go over there and be the next flash in under a year. Some of the best progamers today actively practiced for years to be where they are right now. We can talk about the small gap from a to b teamers down to semi-profesionals all we want, there are S-class progamers who beat others on a constant basis. And these "others" would simply rape the shit out of our best players.
In other words, the margin of error is so small today but that doesnt mean we dont have huge differences in skill.
Personaly i think ret is one of the most interesting zerg players we have and i watch his stream a lot. But if you want to do this ret, you need to hardcore your way trough like the baddest motherfucker, each and everyday. This is a train that wont wait for you, you need to catch it yourself. And we are all down with you man, all the fucking way. It's the same with IdrA. You two are both in a foreign country, far away from home use your brains boys, fucking do this. Break trough your own walls, climb new heights and power up level per level per level.
We do all cheer for you guys, yes even the haters. Shit on all that negativ bullshit, wake up everyday and tell yourself "today i'm going to be a better, faster and stronger player than the day before!!" And i'm shure with that mentality both of you can do what none of us can. And i'm shure the rest of the community feels the same. That's why we're a community in the first place!
Perhaps Idra could pull some strings and ask if CJ wants a good foreign zerg. He is kind of established so perhaps you can give the coach or what not of CJ a good word about Ret.
Imagine you where an eStro player. There's this new white kid that you can barely speak to, and he plays like a noob. He is a couple of years older than you and a teammate tells you that he may have cheated your team by giving out replays. Would you want to play with that guy? Would you even want him around in the house?
Ret, i hope that you find the motivation to try for a third Courage run. If that one is another disaster you should consider stopping that whole Pro-Gamer in Korea thingie. Another option is to quit right now, fly home and focus on winning the TSL2.
On December 28 2009 02:38 zergpower123 wrote: Perhaps Idra could pull some strings and ask if CJ wants a good foreign zerg. He is kind of established so perhaps you can give the coach or what not of CJ a good word about Ret.
On December 28 2009 02:38 zergpower123 wrote: Perhaps Idra could pull some strings and ask if CJ wants a good foreign zerg. He is kind of established so perhaps you can give the coach or what not of CJ a good word about Ret.
even if he ask no chance imo ret is old
I'm starting to think that age isn't as big of a factor as it is often in the SC scene thought to be, many of the great Quake players are a lot older than SC players and Quake is a lot more demanding when it comes to reflexes or quick movement and what not.
Ret just turned on his stream btw. practicing some muta micro it seems!
Well im pretty sure that ret has thought about this over and over, but with the info I got at hand what I would do is:
If you can stay with Artosis for some more time, stay until TSL is over. Your chances there are good and you can practice just for it. If you get a top spot, you get quite a good amount of money to either come back if you feel burned out or keep playing some more time.
When is the next courage? in 1 or 2 months? Might have time to play one more time or maybe two while doing TSL.
On December 28 2009 02:38 zergpower123 wrote: Perhaps Idra could pull some strings and ask if CJ wants a good foreign zerg. He is kind of established so perhaps you can give the coach or what not of CJ a good word about Ret.
even if he ask no chance imo ret is old
I'm starting to think that age isn't as big of a factor as it is often in the SC scene thought to be, many of the great Quake players are a lot older than SC players and Quake is a lot more demanding when it comes to reflexes or quick movement and what not.
Ret just turned on his stream btw. practicing some muta micro it seems!
I dunno about the Quake pro scene but I doubt they have that many young players challenging the older ones ... thus the old pros are still good after so many years I assume.
On December 28 2009 02:37 Jayson X wrote: It's still strange how some people think one can go over there and be the next flash in under a year.
This. No offense to Ret but it seems like he is leaving because he has failed twice now and is giving up. Which, he isn't use to failure. People hyped him up so much that the community got him thinking that he should be good as flash in 2 months. Only if he didnt give up, he would be really good in time. Too bad. =[
On December 28 2009 02:38 zergpower123 wrote: Perhaps Idra could pull some strings and ask if CJ wants a good foreign zerg. He is kind of established so perhaps you can give the coach or what not of CJ a good word about Ret.
even if he ask no chance imo ret is old
I'm starting to think that age isn't as big of a factor as it is often in the SC scene thought to be, many of the great Quake players are a lot older than SC players and Quake is a lot more demanding when it comes to reflexes or quick movement and what not.
Ret just turned on his stream btw. practicing some muta micro it seems!
I dunno about the Quake pro scene but I doubt they have that many young players challenging the older ones ... thus the old pros are still good after so many years I assume.
exactly in quake there is not such a big competion such as in bw imo
what the fuck is with estro. This is the second fucking person they brought over then refused to practice with [idra]. And who the hell knows if they even helped Nony or not. What a piece of shit team, im an anti fan now, they can go fuck themselves.
On December 28 2009 02:38 zergpower123 wrote: Perhaps Idra could pull some strings and ask if CJ wants a good foreign zerg. He is kind of established so perhaps you can give the coach or what not of CJ a good word about Ret.
even if he ask no chance imo ret is old
I'm starting to think that age isn't as big of a factor as it is often in the SC scene thought to be, many of the great Quake players are a lot older than SC players and Quake is a lot more demanding when it comes to reflexes or quick movement and what not.
Ret just turned on his stream btw. practicing some muta micro it seems!
I dunno about the Quake pro scene but I doubt they have that many young players challenging the older ones ... thus the old pros are still good after so many years I assume.
exactly in quake there is not such a big competion such as in bw imo
My point was more about that if a 25+ year old Quake player can do those insane reflex shots and things like that, I doubt there's anything in BW that is more mechanically demanding and thus couldn't be done by a older person.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
Didn't read the thread did you? People are unhappy because eSTRO players refused to even practice with Ret. We all know Ret has to earn his license.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
Agreed, there are so many Koreans who fail on becoming pro-SC players ... it just makes it that much harder for ret to do so. I don't think TLers really fully realize how many FAILED progamers there are.
Edit: To the person above ... put yourself in an ESTRO player's position ... who wants to play against someone that might be cheating?
On December 28 2009 02:38 zergpower123 wrote: Perhaps Idra could pull some strings and ask if CJ wants a good foreign zerg. He is kind of established so perhaps you can give the coach or what not of CJ a good word about Ret.
even if he ask no chance imo ret is old
I'm starting to think that age isn't as big of a factor as it is often in the SC scene thought to be, many of the great Quake players are a lot older than SC players and Quake is a lot more demanding when it comes to reflexes or quick movement and what not.
Ret just turned on his stream btw. practicing some muta micro it seems!
I dunno about the Quake pro scene but I doubt they have that many young players challenging the older ones ... thus the old pros are still good after so many years I assume.
exactly in quake there is not such a big competion such as in bw imo
My point was more about that if a 25+ year old Quake player can do those insane reflex shots and things like that, I doubt there's anything in BW that is more mechanically demanding and thus couldn't be done by a older person.
its like in ice hockey... like Chris chelios because of this experience he was able to play in 40... but with speed he wasnot able to catch faster player but because he knew where to stand he was good
It is laughably unprofessional if eSTRO doesn't look after their players at all, making sure everyone is able to practice as much as they want should be one of the primary things.
And its fucked up if these guys expect that they can just invite someone to Korea and give him false hope of better practice conditions and then just neglecting him when he's actually there.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
You ever watch the NBA? There's a development league called the NBADL. The players are borderline NBA players, but play for pennies when compared to NBA salaries. They're great players, but most don't have enough talent to make the jump. Does being in the D League mean you'll be able to practice with Kobe, Lebron, and Dwade?
Being in Korea does not entitle you to ANYTHING. I'm appalled at how many people here think that just because ret is a foreigner, he deserves preferential treatment.
On December 28 2009 03:11 Puosu wrote: It is laughably unprofessional if eSTRO doesn't look after their players at all, making sure everyone is able to practice as much as they want should be one of the primary things.
And its fucked up if these guys expect that they can just invite someone to Korea and give him false hope of better practice conditions and then just neglecting him when he's actually there.
why they should give a fuck about practice partners or lower? there is thousands of koreans who replace RET place immidietly...
On December 28 2009 03:04 Shengster wrote: Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
I'm sick of reading this stuff. Nobody expects estro to suddenly give ret a progamer license after being over there for a few weeks. However, after the initial incident having ret leave the house and making it clear he wasn't receving much in the way or help or training (as was the case with Idra), Nony's experience, it becomes clear that something seems fundamentally flawed in their handling of foreigners.
I wont speculate as to the exact problems, but I'd say it is apparent that something isn't being handled correctly.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
Agreed, there are so many Koreans who fail on becoming pro-SC players ... it just makes it that much harder for ret to do so. I don't think TLers really fully realize how many FAILED progamers there are.
Edit: To the person above ... put yourself in an ESTRO player's position ... who wants to play against someone that might be cheating?
It's easy to accept that the estro players are ignorant nerds, that's expected. It's the coaching staff that are huge douchebags for not doing anything about it.
On December 28 2009 03:11 Puosu wrote: It is laughably unprofessional if eSTRO doesn't look after their players at all, making sure everyone is able to practice as much as they want should be one of the primary things.
And its fucked up if these guys expect that they can just invite someone to Korea and give him false hope of better practice conditions and then just neglecting him when he's actually there.
why they should give a fuck about practice partners or lower? there is thousands of koreans who replace RET place immidietly...
If they are not prepared to look after him they should not have invited him in the first place.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
You ever watch the NBA? There's a development league called the NBADL. The players are borderline NBA players, but play for pennies when compared to NBA salaries. They're great players, but most don't have enough talent to make the jump. Does being in the D League mean you'll be able to practice with Kobe, Lebron, and Dwade?
Being in Korea does not entitle you to ANYTHING. I'm appalled at how many people here think that just because ret is a foreigner, he deserves preferential treatment.
You are clearly a fucking moron who doesnt comprehend basic english. This is not preferential treatment. When you join a pro team, you join it to practice with the better players. Thats the fucking POINT. Its not for shits and giggles. Every other player at rets level gets practice with every other player on every other fucking team, it is estro refusing to play with foreigners under the assumption that they are bad [not cheating, they did this with idra too] and the incompetence of the coaching staff that has fucked ret.
On December 28 2009 03:04 Shengster wrote: Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
I'm sick of reading this stuff. Nobody expects estro to suddenly give ret a progamer license after being over there for a few weeks. However, after the initial incident having ret leave the house and making it clear he wasn't receving much in the way or help or training (as was the case with Idra), Nony's experience, it becomes clear that something seems fundamentally flawed in their handling of foreigners.
I wont speculate as to the exact problems, but I'd say it is apparent that something isn't being handled correctly.
What? Why invite the guy into the house then? Every other player invited into the eSTRO house is playing on a regular schedule against his teammates. It's unabashedly unfair to make a different standard for foreigners than koreans if you invite them both as players into the same environment. There are thousands of people who didn't make it, of course, but they never got into the house in the first place.
NBA reference - Sure there's a development league, but guess what.. if you're on KOBE's team you better believe he doesn't only practice against Odom and Gosol. That bench player who never gets minutes gets to play against him too. He's part of the team. Kobe won't play against some random dude on the street, but if you tell him this guy is a Laker, he's gonna respect that.
Estro owners put 3 different foreigners in their practice house. They all were different ages, races, skill levels and personalities. Three times it didn't work out.
It's pretty clear there is a conflict between the owners who want foreign players and the players/coaches who don't. If the players are all totally against it the coaches won't force their players to play ret/idra/nony.
It almost seems like the players/coaches decided to bully out ret asap. It's not that they don't really like to play him because he's not good and can't talk about the game. They all boycotted him. Same with Idra. Apparently Nony did get them to play him. Some say because Duke is a name they recognized. Maybe it's because he did so well at Courage.
Ret's results are what is expected really. He lost twice to good players who he potentially could have beaten. It's just that there is no perspective. If he wins courage off iccup practice then maybe CJ will pick him up. But that's two times a big 'maybe'.
Age is a problem because Koreans burn out and because they also have a draft. Ret already got his education done partially and he doesn't have to go to the military. Donno how close he is to being burned out after playing for 9 years but I imagine he wanted to stay till at least SC2.
CJ took Idra because Estro gave him a license. Estro probably did because CJ gave them something in return be it money or draft picks or whatever. CJ won't just take ret. They know they have to invest 1 or 2 years in him and he doesn't even have a license yet. But they very well may if ret had a license and the dedication to keep doing this for years, like idra.
Without the support of a team there is little point into staying in Korea. But there is also TSL2 of course.
On December 28 2009 03:04 Shengster wrote: Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
I'm sick of reading this stuff. Nobody expects estro to suddenly give ret a progamer license after being over there for a few weeks. However, after the initial incident having ret leave the house and making it clear he wasn't receving much in the way or help or training (as was the case with Idra), Nony's experience, it becomes clear that something seems fundamentally flawed in their handling of foreigners.
I wont speculate as to the exact problems, but I'd say it is apparent that something isn't being handled correctly.
What? Why invite the guy into the house then? Every other player invited into the eSTRO house is playing on a regular schedule against his teammates. It's unabashedly unfair to make a different standard for foreigners than koreans if you invite them both as players into the same environment. There are thousands of people who didn't make it, of course, but they never got into the house in the first place.
You misunderstand, I'm agreeing that something is wrong with eStro's player management (at least for foreigners). I don't expect them to hand anything to him, as I wouldn't expect them to hand anything to their practice partners or B-Teamers. However, that isn't to say they need to make things harder without helping ret/others at all.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
You ever watch the NBA? There's a development league called the NBADL. The players are borderline NBA players, but play for pennies when compared to NBA salaries. They're great players, but most don't have enough talent to make the jump. Does being in the D League mean you'll be able to practice with Kobe, Lebron, and Dwade?
Being in Korea does not entitle you to ANYTHING. I'm appalled at how many people here think that just because ret is a foreigner, he deserves preferential treatment.
You are clearly a fucking moron who doesnt comprehend basic english. This is not preferential treatment. When you join a pro team, you join it to practice with the better players. Thats the fucking POINT. Its not for shits and giggles. Every other player at rets level gets practice with every other player on every other fucking team, it is estro refusing to play with foreigners under the assumption that they are bad [not cheating, they did this with idra too] and the incompetence of the coaching staff that has fucked ret.
The whole point of being a practice partner is so that other players (usually better) can play against you to practice for important matches. Has ret proven to be better than the purported "thousands" that would immediately take his place? Keep in mind these are players who can speak the language and are already accustomed to Korean playing styles.
With this knowledge in hand, what makes you think he'll immediately be playing with A-teamers right away? It's like going from college basketball straight to the big leagues. How many rookies get considerable playing time from the get-go?
I remember when Nony went to Korea, they spent time to change his hotkeys and fix his bad habits. Until ret improves, his position in the eSTRO house wont change.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
You ever watch the NBA? There's a development league called the NBADL. The players are borderline NBA players, but play for pennies when compared to NBA salaries. They're great players, but most don't have enough talent to make the jump. Does being in the D League mean you'll be able to practice with Kobe, Lebron, and Dwade?
Being in Korea does not entitle you to ANYTHING. I'm appalled at how many people here think that just because ret is a foreigner, he deserves preferential treatment.
You are clearly a fucking moron who doesnt comprehend basic english. This is not preferential treatment. When you join a pro team, you join it to practice with the better players. Thats the fucking POINT. Its not for shits and giggles. Every other player at rets level gets practice with every other player on every other fucking team, it is estro refusing to play with foreigners under the assumption that they are bad [not cheating, they did this with idra too] and the incompetence of the coaching staff that has fucked ret.
The whole point of being a practice partner is so that other players (usually better) can play against you to practice for important matches. Has ret proven to be better than the purported "thousands" that would immediately take his place? Keep in mind these are players who can speak the language and are already accustomed to Korean playing styles.
With this knowledge in hand, what makes you think he'll immediately be playing with A-teamers right away? It's like going from college basketball straight to the big leagues. How many rookies get considerable playing time from the get-go?
I remember when Nony went to Korea, they spent time to change his hotkeys and fix his bad habits. Until ret improves, his position in the eSTRO house wont change.
Stop using fucking metaphors jackass. This isnt a matter of ret proving his worth to practice with really or someone to that effect. He cant practice with anyone, shitty or otherwise. All the bad players have opportunity to play with the good players, this is a professional environment and thats how its set up. If you are shitty or not you get practice so that you develop, and the better players can understand how to react to a variety of different skills and styles. This isn't average, this isnt comparable to another sport, it isnt reasonable. Stop talking out of your ass.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
You ever watch the NBA? There's a development league called the NBADL. The players are borderline NBA players, but play for pennies when compared to NBA salaries. They're great players, but most don't have enough talent to make the jump. Does being in the D League mean you'll be able to practice with Kobe, Lebron, and Dwade?
Being in Korea does not entitle you to ANYTHING. I'm appalled at how many people here think that just because ret is a foreigner, he deserves preferential treatment.
Please, read the whole of the thread before you embarrass yourself any more.
Nobody said Ret deserved to get his license straight away, or any kind of preferential treatment. But seeing as he was and eSTRO practice partner, living with the team, you'd think eSTRO would uh... practice with him.
Your analogy is terrible. Nobody said Ret deserved to get 1v1 sessions with Really and UpMaGiC and Hyvaa, but is Fancy too much to ask?
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
You ever watch the NBA? There's a development league called the NBADL. The players are borderline NBA players, but play for pennies when compared to NBA salaries. They're great players, but most don't have enough talent to make the jump. Does being in the D League mean you'll be able to practice with Kobe, Lebron, and Dwade?
Being in Korea does not entitle you to ANYTHING. I'm appalled at how many people here think that just because ret is a foreigner, he deserves preferential treatment.
Nobody is complaining about preferential treatment. eSTRO isn't allowing him or is not encouraging other players in the house to play him. That doesn't mean UpMagic, that means that means a bunch of weak b-teamers won't play him. I think it's considered a basic part of inviting someone to the team to have them practice with the team, even the worst b-teamers, otherwise the house is just a giant PC bang for ret.
I'm getting the feeling, what with Idra and ret now, that eSTRO may be doing this more for publicity rather than any actual feeling that they might get a useful player.
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
Whoa, hold on a minute. Do you expect eSTRO to just give him a pro-gaming license? What has ret done so far to actually deserve it? Coming in to Korea, he was an unproven commodity. These two showings at courage (getting knocked out of the first round) certainly doesn't help his reputation. You have to realize there are many other korean amateurs who are more talented and younger than him. From this perspective, I don't expect eSTRO nor any other pro-gaming team to pick him up. You might as well hate them all.
It's great that pro-gaming is ret's dream, but the reality of it is that many fail and only a select few actually go on to fame and fortune. Being a foreigner in Korea already has inherent disadvantages. You don't know the language, culture, and living environment. Past a certain point, you really have to ask yourself whether this is the lifestyle you want to lead (especially if you aren't successful).
I'm still rooting for ret to do well, but maybe it's time to make the best of this, enjoy the time in Korea, and go back to the Netherlands with an interesting story to share.
Wtf? Did you actually just decide to not fucking read the thread yet still run your mouth? Estro, for the second KNOWN time has not PRACTICED with their foreign players. They brought idra in, the players refused to practice with him, the coaches did nothing. They brought ret in, same deal. Who knows what happened to nony. This isnt a matter of estro not giving him his license, its a matter of them reneging on their obligations. They brought him onto the team as a practice partner so he could develop, get his license, etc. They have done nothing to actually help that. Bringing in foreigners is clearly nothing more than publicity stunt to them.
So again, fuck estro, and fuck anyone who defends them.
You ever watch the NBA? There's a development league called the NBADL. The players are borderline NBA players, but play for pennies when compared to NBA salaries. They're great players, but most don't have enough talent to make the jump. Does being in the D League mean you'll be able to practice with Kobe, Lebron, and Dwade?
Being in Korea does not entitle you to ANYTHING. I'm appalled at how many people here think that just because ret is a foreigner, he deserves preferential treatment.
Nobody is complaining about preferential treatment. eSTRO isn't allowing him or is not encouraging other players in the house to play him. That doesn't mean UpMagic, that means that means a bunch of weak b-teamers won't play him. I think it's considered a basic part of inviting someone to the team to have them practice with the team, even the worst b-teamers, otherwise the house is just a giant PC bang for ret.
I'm getting the feeling, what with Idra and ret now, that eSTRO may be doing this more for publicity rather than any actual feeling that they might get a useful player.
A team doesn't function if the management put 'bad' players on the team to train them up and the 'good' players refuse to play him. On every team good players play worse players because of future benefits.
During the time ret was in the house surely some Dream league player had a match vs a zerg and there was no zerg opponent available at that immediate moment. Yet they completely refused to play him.
And apparently he was banned from those in-game tournaments/leagues all teams have. There was one going on in one of those videos. And we know estro stopped those tournaments specifically so players weren't forced to play Idra. Now they just outright banned ret from them, it seems.
Not to mention ret has beaten these estro players in the past.
It's either an internal power struggle or just racism.
On December 28 2009 03:30 Xiphos wrote: Its stuff like this I wish SuperDanielMan still coached eStro. He'll never discriminate against Ret.
Yeah, I'm sorry about the "entitlement" stuff I wrote earlier. This really does sound pretty racist and ret is clearly being treated unfairly. I thought the argument was him playing against the top-tier players, but that's I get for jumping to conclusions.
So what's the root cause, racism? I mean ret had the replay scandal, but did players play him before that? And what about Idra, he never had any scandal. But then why Nony? Because of Duke? Socio-economic stature high enough to overcome his whiteness?
I'm just speculating, but I mean there are only really one big thing that separates Idra/ret from other random koreans trying to get licenses while playing others.
Being in a progaming house DOES mean that you're entitled to practice with the other players on the team. That's simply the definition of "practice partner".
On December 28 2009 03:37 cz wrote: So what's the root cause, racism? I mean ret had the replay scandal, but did players play him before that? And what about Idra, he never had any scandal. But then why Nony? Because of Duke? Socio-economic stature high enough to overcome his whiteness?
I'm just speculating, but I mean there are only really one big thing that separates Idra/ret from other random koreans trying to get licenses while playing others.
NonY came within one game of winning Courage on his first try, so that probably had something to do with it.
On December 28 2009 03:37 cz wrote: So what's the root cause, racism? I mean ret had the replay scandal, but did players play him before that? And what about Idra, he never had any scandal. But then why Nony? Because of Duke? Socio-economic stature high enough to overcome his whiteness?
I'm just speculating, but I mean there are only really one big thing that separates Idra/ret from other random koreans trying to get licenses while playing others.
NonY came within one game of winning Courage on his first try, so that probably had something to do with it.
Yeah I'm missing info though. Did eSTRO people play Idra and ret before their first courage try? What about for Nony? What about before the ret replay scandal thing?
And, more to the point, does this ever happen to any korean of similar skill level?
I dont know about the situation or pretend to but the vibe I get is that estro doesnt really want the nonkoreans in their house and some higher up is pulling strings to get them in or something.
Seems like a shitty situation. Im shocked that they seem to dislike nonkoreans so much. I know the players/coaches are young and in a competitive environment but you would think someone from another country would be interesting. Do they not try to teach the nonkoreans words or anything? I mean seriously youd think theyd at least be friendly.
Maybe some racism or xenophobia going on.
I myself find people from other countries/cultures fascinating.
Look Ret might be new at Estro house but they could at least say hi and acknowledge him. Also why doesn't even one of them befriend Ret at least? Ret is probably the most LIKABLE GUY!
I don't expect the A players of Estro to ask Ret for a game but what about the suckier players? They could at least play Ret and see his skill level. In my opinion, Ret could have a good chance at beating these guys. They underestimate him.
Whole situation is awkward, that would be like me owning a football league and noticing on the net or in games that there is a certain person here who is good. I invite one of you to practice. How weird would it be if you showed up and noone practiced with you or said hi,etc. You just became a loner and all that? Thats frigging weird. How is someone suppose to get better?
The coach of Estro who seemed cool and even had Ret commentate on that video with the Estro guys playing could have said, "you go play Ret" "you go practice with Ret" etc
The estro coaches are actually very friendly. They didn't go out of their way to discriminate me, but they didn't go out of their way to help me either. It's just a huge culture difference. I have nothing against them. It just didn't work out w/ them, no hard feelings there.
I explained things because I was tired of people asking me how it was like in the estro house, and partly to make an excuse for my pityfull courage performance. But please don't turn this into an estro hate fest, because their coaches and especially the manager, hwanni, are very good people. It's partly my fault that things didn't work out as well.
- You are young, even if the progamer-thing doesn't work out you clearly are an intelligent guy and can make it in other fields you pursue
- Clearly you are going through an emotionally slump right now. Gather your thoughts, clear your mind, decide what you are going to do and go with it.
- What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
- For the next courage (I hope you give it at least one more try) go in it with absolutely zere expectation and a "nothing to lose"-mentality. It makes you play more aggressively and relaxed, which is always good. I assume your poor performance at courage might be due to mental weaknesses since clearly your gameplay cannot be the reason.
ret from what you've said it sounds like your best bet is to destroy any pride and beg your way back into the estro house. Unless they molest you at night and gangrape you during the day I can't foresee anything that should stop you from becoming a progamer.
In my management class, we talked about how other peoples doubt in you can be extremely motivating if you're confident. If those players, other people etc, don't think you're good enough, you can try to turn that into a me against the world mentality. That mentality has helped me in the past. If you think one of the problems is motivation, this can help keep you motivated.
I know I'm just another guy giving advice. Good Luck Ret. We'll support you no matter what you do.
maybe ret you can also bypass some time by looking youtube videos like this:
if you want to and it if it might help you a bit to communicate in general.
but i agree with chill that people shouldnt judge or talk about ret or the situation like they know everything or got all the wisdom and know what is the best for him. its always a mixture of following your heart / dreams and doing in your eyes the most logical and rational steps. everybody most find the right mixture for himself. especially when you are already an adult and intelligent person as ret. we only can give hints or suggests things here and there.
i hope you find your way to come closer to your progaming dream. but even if you come for yourself to the decision its better to leave korea and go on with something different dont be to hard to yourself and even then it wouldnt be a waste imo. because you got that insight and gathered some new experience that not everybody gets and in this matter i also agree with that what a other person wrote here "- What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". anyways i wish you the best and our thoughts are with you.
On December 27 2009 22:14 GTR wrote: First of all there are 11 corporate teams running, not 10.
Each team can technically have an infinite amount of people living in their household, but for logistical reasons there is a limit to that.
Players who play at Courage are those who are currently classed as 'amateurs'. Some players however, may be living with these pro-teams as 'practice partners' which means they are usually better than any of the other amateurs playing at Courage.
I'm not really sure of the minute details of the bi-annual drafts, but I know that they have two reserved slots for their practice partners, and then three slots they can opt to use to draft whoever they felt performed well at the evaluation matches held before the draft.
The pool of players in Korea is finite, but there can only be so many 'good' players that it's really difficult for pro teams to pick out who is actually good and who are just simply bad.
Yes, Jaedong and Flash did go through Courage once in their careers. IIRC, Flash advanced in the 26th edition of Courage in late 2006. No idea about Jaedong, but I'm pretty sure it was early 2006.
To be honest.... the only players I know who were given the licenses from their pro-team were Draco, Pj and Lx (I think), IdrA and GosI[Season].
So it's 4 players per year per team (x 11 teams) + up to 3 playes (x11 teams) from the draft? Draftees = people who already have the license? (Around 10 people who win the courage during a year + maybe people who won it earlier?). I still dont understand how can the teams refresh their roosters so fast; 4 players per year is not much (I assume the draft gets ignored); I think it's super competitive.
In addition, if someone has a good practice partner he cant send him to courage, because if he wins it he can get drafted by another team?
You held on as long as you could; dont feel bad about your perfomances, when the support systems dont exist who do you look to? Team liquid fans?(;p) Ret youre a monster alot of people admire you. I hope starcraft continues to be great for you. GL~
On December 28 2009 02:28 emucxg wrote: Ok, I'm an anti-fan of eSTRO now
This. Fuck estro.
2 idiots, that's not even a problem out of the problemS. nor does it do ret any good.
dude ret:
weigh your options and make a choice, it's still technically for fun now. if it's me I'd stay for another month and try courage one more time. if it doesn't stick, it doesn't stick, but no way in hell would I let things go out in a whimper. make a fucking splash and go out loud and proud, if not as a pro then as something else. show up at estro after the courage match and be a good chum, genuinely thank everyone who helped, buy the team a cake or some shit.
Thank them for what they did, not what they didn't, and make them feel bad for being cold. After that party hardy, get smashed, maybe even commit a misdemeanor (lol you didn't hear me say that if you get arrested), then get back home and remember it fondly, instead of sadly.
EPT
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