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Thoughts about Index and the Averatec-Intel Classic Season 3 Ro.64 Index vs FireBatHero series, written five days ago. Spoilers ahead, but if you haven't seen the games by now you probably weren't planning to.
Immediately dictating the style of the series.
All right, I liked that series. Index played unconventionally, and he played adroitly within that self-imposed setting. There's something about running an early probe out in the first round of a set to steal Terran's gas in an "it's time to break from the norm" kind of way which appeals to me, and he applied an old school build to complement the effort.
Index kept forcing FireBatHero into guessing, into unfavourable situations, or simply into atypical ones; he blocked a ramp which had nothing behind it from Terran's scouting SCV, he circled around Terran's base and stole his gas, he hovered a Shuttle loaded with a Reaver behind Terran's tank so it couldn't siege up to take out the Dragoons pounding on his front door. Index was constantly pressuring FireBatHero, trying to dictate the pace of the game. The games were overall enjoyable, for Index's subtle cleverness and for the nice Reaver/DT exhibition. In fact, his Reaver/DT was so successful in the third game that he was able to tech to Carriers off 2 Gateways.
Whenever a less prominent player battling a well-established one breaks from the norm, be it in StarCraft, chess, or any competitive sport, your alarm bells should be going off. Your game sense should be tingling. This divergent move often means that they are feeling insecure about their ability to take you on in a straight-up fight, and thus are trying to steer the game into their comfort zone; to coax it into a position you might not have practised for, hoping you'll be thrown off mentally. It is very important to remember that if something is not the norm, it's usually because it's considered worse, or risky. If you deal with it psychologically, and you play according to StarCraft principles, you'll be just fine.
Therefore, I'm free to question the technical efficiency of what Index did without downplaying the psychological impact or entertainment value. For example, Index blocked off a ramp behind which he may have placed a Robotics or Citadel for all FireBatHero knew, but after the scout was gone Index soon went for the Reaver/DT build anyway. He failed a ramp block through poor Probe placement, though it was obvious he was trying to throw FBH off again. However, for all his unorthodox moves, and though Index did indeed lose the first game, he came back strong in the second and beat FBH down hard in a game in which he was simply playing good StarCraft.
Index aptly taking the second game.
What I think made the series pleasing, and why I think Index's plays weren't necessarily done from a lack of confidence, was that his unconventional plays were subtle. They weren't glaring differences in standard build orders or half-in proxy builds, nothing that reeked of desperation; they were small psychological tricks, nuances of ingenuity and resourcefulness. Giving the opposing player more things to worry about provides another obstacle to perfection, and it's likely Index is employing these plays in abundance to compensate for his disadvantageous position as an inexperienced newcomer.
Overall, the series featured some good basic play, but it was obviously the nonconformist plays that made me smile, and that's something I always want to see more of. I'm biased, of course; I prefer to watch creative players. I'm a huge Nal_rA fan, and I loved watching him even when he loses. Meanwhile, I feel like crushing my eyeballs some times watching Stork mundane his way to victory, however brilliantly.
Carrier tech off 2 Gateways to win the series.
So, FBH is out, and with him his glorious victory dances. Meanwhile, Index goes on to face sKyHigh. Well, shit. Index was fun to watch and I hoped he'd put on an entertaining show for several games to come, but I'd be lying if I said I'd rather have more Index games than see sKyHigh in the finals opposite Jaedong. Considering sKyHigh seems to have finally gotten over his fear of cameras, and considering his current streak of dominance, I could think of nothing more epic.
Except Reach. I mean, come on. Reach.
What could have made this series better? FireBatHero not sucking dong against Protoss.
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this series should be buried somewhere and we should all pray its never found
if more protosses figure out you can play like that and beat players who can actually play starcraft progaming will go to shit
and your choice for a mundane protoss is kinda weird, stork can be cheesy as fuck too
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everything about this thread is wonderful
5/5
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On May 11 2009 09:35 IdrA wrote:
this series should be buried somewhere and we should all pray its never found
if more protosses figure out you can play like that and beat players who can actually play starcraft progaming will go to shit
If playing like this can ruin progaming, then StarCraft has a much bigger problem than the rare unorthodox games, and if Korean progamers read my blog on TeamLiquid for tips they have bigger problems than their beloved game going to shit. FireBatHero could have countered Index's plays, but FBH's TvP was sub-par. He had no turrets in base despite Index going DT/Reaver every game. I'm not even skilled enough nor knowledgeable enough to accurately predict why FBH lost, and whether he was psyched out or simply playing bad. Index didn't make a single play that a better player couldn't have countered, he just made it entertaining to watch for me as a spectator. I was under the impression that that's what the game is about.
On May 11 2009 09:35 IdrA wrote:
and your choice for a mundane protoss is kinda weird, stork can be cheesy as fuck too
Yeah, and he can win by massing standard units and running his opponents into the ground. It's skilful as hell but, in regular games, it doesn't really excite me.
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On May 11 2009 09:35 IdrA(Gay=Cheese,Actuall Starcraft= No Cheese)IdrA=Dosen't Knows Cheese wrote:
this series should be buried somewhere and we should all pray its never found
if more protosses figure out you can play like that and beat players who can actually play starcraft progaming will go to shit
and your choice for a mundane protoss is kinda weird, stork can be cheesy as fuck too
WoW, It shouldn't be burried, Index took a lot of risks, huge risks, just imagine FBH going for a Flash Build getting Golies+Scan owning index's Reaver/DT and ultimately Those Cars.
This is a huge display of why FBH isn't sent out to play TvP.
Stop saying Cheese isn't real SC
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If Idra can't play against it and win, then it's not real sc. It's as simple as that.
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Standard play are standard because they are found to be the most effective build of that time period. If there isn't any degree of unconventional play, the sc scene would become stagnant and the viewers bored. I think that one of the reason that 2v2 failed was because it couldn't attract big enough of an audience because each game was so similar and standardized. Any stray from conventional play would result in some heavy punishing by the other side's army heavy builds.
I think what Idra said has some value to it. If sc becomes a game where you can do random things in and still win, it loses its competitive value. However, a hint of unconventional play gives life to the scene and makes games unpredictable.
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On May 11 2009 09:51 never_Nal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 09:35 IdrA(Gay=Cheese,Actuall Starcraft= No Cheese)IdrA=Dosen't Knows Cheese wrote:
this series should be buried somewhere and we should all pray its never found
if more protosses figure out you can play like that and beat players who can actually play starcraft progaming will go to shit
and your choice for a mundane protoss is kinda weird, stork can be cheesy as fuck too WoW, It shouldn't be burried, Index took a lot of risks, huge risks, just imagine FBH going for a Flash Build getting Golies+Scan owning index's Reaver/DT and ultimately Those Cars. This is a huge display of why FBH isn't sent out to play TvP. Stop saying Cheese isn't real SC
massive risks are bad for the game. you enjoy watching 14 nex vs proxy bbs? thats the result of risk taking. people pay lip service to strategy focused games but theyre generally very boring. its insane micro or massive management games that people go crazy over. build order losses, hard counters, those are strategy focused games. and theyre boring as fuck. was hwasin vs 815 on gods garden fun to watch last night? hwasin knew 815 is a greedy player so he allined him. out-thought him. awesome game wasnt it? what about boxer 3-0ing yellow in 15 minutes? 3 bunker rushes. that was the epic series everyone was hoping for right?
hell just look at the osl finals. fantasy is one of the smartest players around. he sees jaedong going 2 hat and only pumping drones, so he sends out his first marine to prevent jaedong from mining out the minerals so he can hop his vulture up there a bit later. brilliant right? when does the crowd go crazy? when jaedong's sick micro makes fantasy's intelligence irrelevant.
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Um... I can't agree with what you're saying Idra, cause you're only providing one type of gameplay that is "risky". 14 nex vs proxy bbs is not interesting to watch because it's too passive/economic oriented on the side of the toss. There's no units to watch attack or die, just marines slaughtering probes and the few zealot that manage to come out. Viewers like to see their favorite players win, but not when it's just one sided slaughter (unless you have some strong bias against the other player or something). Viewers want to imagine that there is at least a glimmer of a chance that their player could lose, so that when they win the victory seems worthwhile.
There is another kind of risky builds. The first time Savior did a 3 hatch hydra break on Bisu with one hatch proxied next to Bisu's base. You can't tell me that the crowd wasn't at the edge of their seat because of the suspense. Was it risky? Hell yea it was.
Triple bunker rush isn't so fun to watch since it's the same build over and over again. The OP wasn't advocating for every game to be like that. I even mentioned in my previous post that if all games become random, it'd take away the competitive nature of the game, but you can't say that Julyzerg drone drilling Best on Troy wasn't exciting for the viewers. In fact, ask Bisu what he thought of it.
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On May 11 2009 13:46 aznmathfreak wrote:
but you can't say that Julyzerg drone drilling Best on Troy wasn't exciting for the viewers. In fact, ask Bisu what he thought of it.
heh heh
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On May 11 2009 09:32 Aylear wrote:
Overall, the series featured some good basic play, but it was obviously the nonconformist plays that made me smile, and that's something I always want to see more of. I'm biased, of course; I prefer to watch creative players. I'm a huge Nal_rA fan, and I loved watching him even when he loses. Meanwhile, I feel like crushing my eyeballs some times watching Stork mundane his way to victory, however brilliantly.
You obviously dont know what you are talking about, Stork is the most abusive PvTer to play the game and arguably the best, he can play as cheesy as he wants, as straight upand abusive as he wants. Your description fits Jangbi, everytime I watch Stork play I see the inner Terran within me cry(I used to play TvP, now I play 7 MUs and dodge TvP and TvT). Stork's style is abusive and sexy, and fucking strong, watch more Stork games before making comments like this please, Stork is without a doubt the player with the greatest arsenal of builds and varies it up the most, especially PvT, he makes artosis cry at night.
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On May 11 2009 17:42 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2009 09:32 Aylear wrote:
Overall, the series featured some good basic play, but it was obviously the nonconformist plays that made me smile, and that's something I always want to see more of. I'm biased, of course; I prefer to watch creative players. I'm a huge Nal_rA fan, and I loved watching him even when he loses. Meanwhile, I feel like crushing my eyeballs some times watching Stork mundane his way to victory, however brilliantly.
You obviously dont know what you are talking about, Stork is the most abusive PvTer to play the game and arguably the best, he can play as cheesy as he wants, as straight upand abusive as he wants. Your description fits Jangbi, everytime I watch Stork play I see the inner Terran within me cry(I used to play TvP, now I play 7 MUs and dodge TvP and TvT). Stork's style is abusive and sexy, and fucking strong, watch more Stork games before making comments like this please, Stork is without a doubt the player with the greatest arsenal of builds and varies it up the most, especially PvT, he makes artosis cry at night.
My blog, my opinions. I didn't ask for your blessing on my blog entry before posting it for a reason. Stork is a brilliant Protoss player whose achievements are well-earned, and I happen to rarely enjoy watching his games. Don't agree? Write a blog about Stork and how awesome he is. I'll come read it, and agree with it up until you make the point that Stork invariably makes games enjoyable to watch. Then, and here's the critical part, I won't badmouth you for it.
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watch index vs skyhigh
thats why cheesy newbs are bad for the game
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+ Show Spoiler +Index blew against sKyHigh; he should have practised what he was trying to do and has no excuse for falling on his face like an idiot. It was a horrible attempt at pure cheese that left me wondering why I was even watching the stream.
However, his series against FBH wasn't won on cheese. He played straight up decent StarCraft, except for a few psychological tricks, which was the point of the entire article. The one game where Index actively tried some form of cheese was in game 1, where he stole Terran's gas and subsequently lost. In game 2, his big off move was to block an empty ramp inside of his own base, forcing FBH to guess whether or not he had anything behind it. In game 3, he tried to do the same with the ramp in front of his main, but failed because he's a dumbass. All of which were entertaining for the viewer. You know, the viewer? The people who are the reason why StarCraft is an eSport? The people you have to please if you want the scene to prosper?
He beat FBH because FBH's TvP is lacklustre. Index did nothing a good player couldn't counter. When you manage to squeeze past a blocked ramp to scout someone's base, you have no excuse when you lose in the ensuing battle. You'll have to pardon me for enjoying the minor psychological tricks applied by Index in a game FBH simply wasn't about to win.
Meanwhile, + Show Spoiler +Index vs sKyHigh is the perfect example of when cheesing is bad. It was groan-worthy. It was pathetic. The kid deserved to be curbstomped. However, jumping all over it as the perennial end-all to any contrary arguments is absurd.
You want to talk about what's bad for the sport? How about ambassadors for the game who'd rather spend time arguing a blog entry made by a bored Norwegian on some Monday morning instead of writing an article about your experiences as a pro gamer in Korea? You have one fucking build order. Stop biting my head off because I enjoy a bit of variety.
Edit: Meanwhile, after cooling off, this emotional Norwegian apologises for the pointless personal attack. That it's my blog and my opinions, and that I'm not the one who resurrected it from the bottom of the pile to make a point, is no excuse. I stand by my points, but I withdraw the personal slander.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c164/Aqualicy/StarCraft/VODSnapshots/IndexvsFireBatHero/indexvsfirebathero001.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c164/Aqualicy/StarCraft/VODSnapshots/IndexvsFireBatHero/indexvsfirebathero010.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c164/Aqualicy/StarCraft/VODSnapshots/IndexvsFireBatHero/indexvsfirebathero008.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c164/Aqualicy/StarCraft/VODSnapshots/IndexvsFireBatHero/indexvsfirebathero007.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SonuvBob/ss/bisu_o_face.jpg )
