Before I even get into anything I would like to say I am very disappointed in how orb reacted to the decision made by tournament admins. Disconnects unfortunately are one of the most difficult things one will run into when coordinating, running and officiating a tournament. Today Torenhire and GenoZstriker of TL were our two main rules officials for the cyber ground tournament. Ultimately any and all decisions will be made in total agreement of multiple people, tournament officials and players opinion was considered. Isai felt he still had a chance in the game of course and Orb obviously felt he was too far ahead. After analyzing the replay and hearing both players opinions the consensus was although orb had a very large economic advantage, at the point of disconnect the game was not decided. Army composition/cost were fairly even, there was a terran army moving on the map while protoss was in a defensive position. While orb hypothetically would have continued to macro into an overwhelming advantage it was felt the presence and unit compositions AT THE POINT of disconnect was not a game decisive call. When a game disconnects you can only look at what exists on the map, what sort of situation might happen in the next minute or two.
In the next minute or two isai might have attacked with a fairly substantial force of mmm. Orb most likely would not have died but this can not be said with 100% certanty considering there were more marauders than stalkers and 16 marines+2medivacs + stim vs 10 zealots that would not have had charge researched (if isai attacked right away) any further analysis past this point becomes very hypothetical and even though orb had more than twice the economy at the point of disconnect the game was clearly not decided in the eyes of those who were consulted to watch the replay after hearing orb and isai's explanation.
The final ruling was the two play a regame with no one awarded a win, discarding the game.
Orb was clearly not happy with the decision, flaming excessively both isai, the tournament, all tournament admins and myself. This is totally unacceptable and unprofessional behavior on his part. I have no problems and totally encourage the intensity and competition in a tournament setting and know orb is a very outspoken player. I've known orb for over a year from previous broodwar lans and TL meetups, his passion for the game and intensity are unparalleled, anyone who has watched his stream or knows him as a person would agree. On the flip side anyone who knows me knows I strive to always provide as fair a solution as possible in any situation, define rules beforehand, appoint rules officials to handle things like this and overall try as best as I possibly can to provide a solid and fun event for all players involved. I constalty strive to stay professional in how I address issues and problems and this situation is no different. I am always interested in working WITH the people in improving anything and everything about live events and tournaments.
Orb was warned by TL in a post initially after the ruling (before he lost the re game) (source) and basically lost it in the thread after that. Also acting very unprofessional in person for the remainder of the night. I've run many, many tournaments and events in the DC area in the past 1-2 years now and I always pride on making the events as smooth as possible for players and everyone involved.
Anyway that is all I needed to say really, this post is primarily intended as a statement of what kind of thinking went into the decision that was made. Agree or disagree I feel it fair to fully share the situation publicly. I know the game was not livestreamed I believe the stream was covering the gretorp vs avilo series (which was absolutely amazing by the way) but this was an issue that needed to be addressed.
edit: the stream did analyze the replay afterwords and people generally agreed orb was in a decisive position. But was it decisive enough to award him the win at point of disconnect? Not as easy a question to answer until the terran army actually is eliminated.
edit* pre edit in spoiler. I am not good enough with the game to be as sure as I felt I was to make such a post. + Show Spoiler +
On September 26 2010 16:39 LuckyFool wrote: ...vs 10 zealots that would not have had charge researched (if isai attacked right away) any further analysis past this point becomes very hypothetical
Just want to put in my 2 cents. I am not questioning the decisions made by the admin. I felt though, when watching this, that is pretty clear that the terran wasn't going to attack until at least he had finished doing what he was going to do with that factory on the highground next to orb's nat. (Responding to the if statement in the part of your post I quoted.) Of course this but another IF. If he was indeed going to make use of that factory instead of not making it and devoting more resources into the mmm all in(doesn't even have a 2nd cc started), I think charge would be done.
I am in no way questioning the decisions made by the admin. It really is unfortunate connections were so bad.
On September 26 2010 17:05 mOnion wrote: its things like this that add to the list of reasons why orb should be removed from featured streams.
shameful really
I don't think this is the straw that broke the camel's back. What orb had to go through with that darn disconnect was pretty brutal and I think most people here would be pretty pissed. When you are pretty sure you are about to advance in the tournament and then a stupid bnet disconnect favors your opponent, you can easily lose your temper. Obviously it's wrong but if orb were to apologize I really do feel that everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt and some forgiveness in this case.
Tough decision admins but I think you got it right.
On September 26 2010 17:05 mOnion wrote: its things like this that add to the list of reasons why orb should be removed from featured streams.
shameful really
I don't think this is the straw that broke the camel's back. What orb had to go through with that darn disconnect was pretty brutal and I think most people here would be pretty pissed. When you are pretty sure you are about to advance in the tournament and then a stupid bnet disconnect favors your opponent, you can easily lose your temper. Obviously it's wrong but if orb were to apologize I really do feel that everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt and some forgiveness in this case.
Tough decision admins but I think you got it right.
oh i dont think so either, its just that he's acted like this time and time again, and to still react this way at a LAN of all things is like incomprehensible to me.
i've seen players like machine, silver, lz, etc go through more disconnects for BIGGER tournaments that were only online with no personal guilt to feel for taking a win and they STILL regame while retaining good manners.
i'm tired of giving orb the benefit of the doubt when he doesn't deserve it.
Isn't like the first rule of tournaments: Don't argue with admins and their decisions ?
Anyway, I would say that Orb was definitely in the lead, however his force was pure zealot/stalker with 0 FFs, which really help against MM and he was only on 4 gates, so they had pretty much equal production capacity, if orb was adding gates at that point, i would say that he would definitely come out ahead, as it is, it's not really clear.
On September 26 2010 17:05 mOnion wrote: its things like this that add to the list of reasons why orb should be removed from featured streams.
shameful really
I don't think this is the straw that broke the camel's back. What orb had to go through with that darn disconnect was pretty brutal and I think most people here would be pretty pissed. When you are pretty sure you are about to advance in the tournament and then a stupid bnet disconnect favors your opponent, you can easily lose your temper. Obviously it's wrong but if orb were to apologize I really do feel that everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt and some forgiveness in this case.
Tough decision admins but I think you got it right.
oh i dont think so either, its just that he's acted like this time and time again, and to still react this way at a LAN of all things is like incomprehensible to me.
i've seen players like machine, silver, lz, etc go through more disconnects for BIGGER tournaments that were only online with no personal guilt to feel for taking a win and they STILL regame while retaining good manners.
i'm tired of giving orb the benefit of the doubt when he doesn't deserve it.
I thought it was common knowledge he's jsut some dickhead still on his high horse from when he was good early in beta, and now he just thinks he's god material all over the place
Orb's behavior is absolutely unacceptable. It's not fair to the people who invested so much time and effort into organizing this event, only to have it tarnished by someone throwing a temper tantrum you'd expect from a 5 year old.
Orb has been given an ultimatum; expect to see something, one way or another, soon.
Just watch the kid's stream for two minutes and you can tell what sort Orb is. His commentray is fine but what's with the camera on himself moments. Day[9] can do that but the plebeian streams should avoid that sort of egoism at all costs.
On September 26 2010 18:12 chrisSquire wrote: So was there a rematch? Lemme guess Orb lost?
Just watch the kid's stream for two minutes and you can tell what sort Orb is. His commentray is fine but what's with the camera on himself moments. Day[9] can do that but the plebeian streams should avoid that sort of egoism at all costs.
Orb was one of the most popular and "famous" streamers of SC2 back in the Beta, so he isn't really a "plebeian".
Lucky is probably the most fair and objective person I know in the Starcraft community. I've never even seen the guy get mad before, so its always a safe bet to trust his decision. If they had to make that decision, then it was probably the right one.
Ok, orb is just ridiculous. I'm sorry if I'm being blunt or BM but this is just frustrating.
I first looked at the armies and actually thought to myself that the terran army seems a bit stronger. I'm a protoss player, so I know how weak gateway units are versus stim MMM (ESPECIALLY without sentry force field / guardian shield).
I really thought that the terran army had an advantage, so I tested it out. I did the exact same army composition in the unit tester (exact same number of units). I set up a PERFECT concave for the protoss army...even better than what is in the video. I then 1a the entire terran army into the protoss army after using stim. I also attacked with the protoss army as soon as the terran army was close so as to keep the perfect concave. I DID NOT MICRO A SINGLE THING FROM THE TERRAN ARMY -- this is very important. With ZERO micro (which never happens) from the terran army, the terran still came out on top. It was pretty decisive to be honest. Once again, this is without the shoot, run back, shoot, run back that is so common for terran bioballs. I just let it sit there. I also did not take into account pulling probes.
So, I gave orb the benefit of the doubt. I tried it again with charge. Terran still won (WITHOUT micro). I really think it is quite ridiculous that orb is making a big fuss. It's very disrespectful...
Just to stress this, I know that the unit tester is not perfect and in no way shows what could have actually happened. However, I think this clearly shows that the game is NOT the 100% orb cannot lose type of situation that he seems to think it is.
edit: sorry this is long. I'm NOT saying terran was ahead. I'm just saying it wasn't completely orb's game. Also, I'm pretty sure orb is supply blocked as well (hard to see though, I could be wrong).
As a Zerg player who doesn't play PvT, orb sure as hell looked like he was gonna win that game. He had defender advantage, and could pull all his Probes at his nat and still be ahead, but whatever.
The point I want to make is about tournament decision in general, and how prevalent a regame decision is. A lot of the times, regames are given out just because they feel like the "safer" decision, the "fairer" decision, the one where the tournament admins aren't directly involved in the elimination of the player. As such, I think regames are awarded much more often than they should be, simply because it lessens the responsibility of doing something substantial, even when a regame is not the best decision. To put it bluntly, regames are basically cop outs from the admins in many cases when there is a clear winner but the admins don't want to eliminate someone. For notable events, the TL tournament involving Artosis comes to mind (where afterwards, everyone agreed that regame was the incorrect decision at the time), along with this tournament imo.
EPT
