By viewing this thread, you decided by yourself to get spoiled. Dont complain about it.
Well... My team won, my guy scored, everything should be perfect. But on the other end I feel sad as well, and even more surprisingly, its because of Jaedong. No, I'm not trolling for fun, this time I'm not trying to provoke ppl like SuperArc or ahole-surprise to explode in fanboyish rage and write how retarded I'm and that Jaedong is the best. I'm completely honest about what you are reading at the moment.
You see, losing is part of every sport as we all know. But letting you team down really sucks. When I was a kid, I trained soccer really hardcore, I'm not quite sure what my idea was, to become a professional one day or not, but I was truly dedicated. My brightest memory with the sport competitively however was a semi final game for U16 national championship. I had a really great tournament but in this game I scored an own goal like 10 mins before the final whistle. These last 10 minutes were so painful - I was burning with anger to myself, burning in desire to redeem myself, but I couldn't do anything, so after the game eventually ended I cried a lot. To think of it right now, it was not a big deal, but letting your team down and the feeling after is, believe me, unbearable pain.
Jaedong may win all the titles from now on, he may lose 10 finals in a row as well, but I'm sure he will never forget the grand finals of PL 08-09. I hope he will have a lot of peak moments in his progaming life, to eclipse the bitterness of today's and yesterday's games.
Playing for a team is a honor, and the PL grand final is the biggest stage in the professional starcraft. History is full of examples how exactly the best players are the one to drop the ball in the end. Roberto Bagio's penalty in the finals against Brazil in 1994 comes on top of my head. The hardest thing is to pick yourself up again.
Changed your icon to SKT T1? I actually feel kinda selfish because I would prefer JD winning an individual gold over a PL one, though I'm sure he feels the opposite. There's at least one more season of PL left, but I don't know if Oz will get this chance again =/
On August 09 2009 01:08 disciple wrote: By viewing this thread, you decided by yourself to get spoiled. Dont complain about it.
Well... My team won, my guy scored, everything should be perfect. But on the other end I feel sad as well, and even more surprisingly, its because of Jaedong. No, I'm not trolling for fun, this time I'm not trying to provoke ppl like SuperArc or ahole-surprise to explode in fanboyish rage and write how retarded I'm and that Jaedong is the best. I'm completely honest about what you are reading at the moment.
You see, losing is part of every sport as we all know. But letting you team down really sucks. When I was a kid, I trained soccer really hardcore, I'm not quite sure what my idea was, to become a professional one day or not, but I was truly dedicated. My brightest memory with the sport competitively however was a semi final game for U16 national championship. I had a really great tournament but in this game I scored an own goal like 10 mins before the final whistle. These last 10 minutes were so painful - I was burning with anger to myself, burning in desire to redeem myself, but I couldn't do anything, so after the game eventually ended I cried a lot. To think of it right now, it was not a big deal, but letting your team down and the feeling after is, believe me, unbearable pain.
Jaedong may win all the titles from no on, he may lose 10 finals in a row as well, but I'm sure he will never forget the grand finals of PL 08-09. I hope he will have a lot of peak moments in his progaming life, to eclipse the bitterness of today's and yesterday's games.
Playing for a team is a honor, and the PL grand final is the biggest stage in the professional starcraft. History is full of examples how exactly the best players are the one to drop the ball in the end. Roberto Bagio's penalty in the finals against Brazil in 1994 comes on top of my head. The hardest thing is to pick yourself up again.
Keep on walking, Lee Jae Dong !
You finally wrote something I liked, and I like it a lot. 10/5
To win both ace and superace is a gigantic challenge and nobody even jaedong himself do not think its easy. Unlike Baggio's penalty, where all that is needed is for him not to screw up, Jaedong is required to perform a herculean task of winning 2 games in a row against same-strength opponents.
I hope he rape the upcoming OSL and win the golden mouse, to console himself.
... the only scenario where i'd feel worse would be if the same happened to KT/Flash i was biting my nails at lomo vs best, i was SURE that jaedong would at least take it to the super ace.. and not only he lost, the game itself was so sad... now jaedong will own fantasy cuz he's so angry at him and we'll have zvz finals T.T but overall this was a really nice PL finals. enjoyed it much more than KHAN vs OGN
Himself and his team always expect him to win in fact they need him to win, every single match they play vs any team. It's to much pressure and it's really unfair regardless of how talented he is or how much money he gets paid. He's 19 and he has a large company, all his friends and bosses essentially resting all their hopes on him. Really unfair and when you see how much it hurt him to lose those games it's really sad.
If it's any consolation, perhaps he has only been practicing for individual leagues?
Ah, fuck it. Jaedong better devour Fantasy this OSL like he did the last one! (which was actually pretty damn close! I did love how JD lost the first 2 games and didn't even seem to register how close he teetered on the brink of defeat. Seriously, whose dick do you have to suck to become bonjwa around here?)
I suspect the WORST case scenario is Jaedong will pull a Nada: enter into a slump for a year or two then come back and take the Golden Mouse.
That's the WORST case scenario.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Jaedong reminds me of a Zerg equivalent of Nada. Because of this, I expect him to stay a dangerous force to be reckoned with for a very, very long time. I would not be surprised if he managed to stay on Kespa top 30 longer than Nada either, assuming the Kespa rankings last that long.
i feel so bad for jaedong, every oz fan was saying over and over again "JD can still win his games, and OZ can win the whole series if he does" and then for the first time in a long time, JD couldn't meet the huge demand of him, oh well, still the best player in the world
Just goes to show how similar in skill level these guys are. Anyone can take a game from anyone else. I don't think jaedong will suddenly slump - he has the mental composure, practice routine, and pure talent to keep playing at the highest level.
On August 09 2009 01:44 iaguz wrote: If it's any consolation, perhaps he has only been practicing for individual leagues?
No quite the contrary, Jaedong has been practicing his ass of just for proleague and then when the official practice time was over he then started practicing for his individual leagues.
God I'm still so bummed about all of this. I wish lomo had just lost or something, this must be so painful. Now momentum is swinging heavily in fantasys favour in the OSL semis as well. I really really hope that JD recovers from this, and if he does win at least one of the two titles, that he can truely enjoy it, despite the failure that the Grand Finals were.
ohh damn =( i feel exactly the same way im a JD fan, and he trains so hard and has a big heart and now losing the finals because he couldn't deliver the win must be heartbreaking.
But perhaps thats part of growing into a better player and he will now be even better and train even harder than he did before, and get what he truly deserves, JD BONJWA
hate to be the emotionless jerk, but i don't feel bad for jaedong at all. he was out-prepared and out-executed. he lost not because of some fluke or unluckiness, but because he played bad. shit happens, nobody is perfect. he won several close finals like OSL over fantasy, and i'm sure that hurt a comparable amount given that fantasy was up 2-0. he's in both major league semifinals now too, and he'll be angry and determined. i'm not going to feel bad for jaedong because oz lost to a clearly superior team in a format that really gave them a great shot at winning.
JD didnt played bad he basicly lost all games on a bo basis. He was just unlucky in last 2 games and fantasy played little bit better than JD in their first game on outsider
On August 09 2009 02:42 Hot_Bid wrote: hate to be the emotionless jerk, but i don't feel bad for jaedong at all. he was out-prepared and out-executed. he lost not because of some fluke or unluckiness, but because he played bad. shit happens, nobody is perfect. he won several close finals like OSL over fantasy, and i'm sure that hurt a comparable amount given that fantasy was up 2-0. he's in both major league semifinals now too, and he'll be angry and determined. i'm not going to feel bad for jaedong because oz lost to a clearly superior team in a format that really gave them a great shot at winning.
It's not simply about the fact that he lost, but about how he lost. Of course SKT is clearly the superior team, and I never thought any team had a great chance of beating them. But to be the superstar player and go 0-2, only to have your team perform an epic comeback with lomo playing the game if his life, and then lose the ace match in a matter of minutes in such a horrible fashion ... that hurts like hell Also it's not JD's fault he was "out-prepared" and doesn't have an epic coaching staff solely focusing on strategies for you like fantasy does.
Also, yeah, you say there was no unluckiness, but the BO fantasy did was a hard counter to jaedong's 9pool lair strategy @SkelA he definitely didn't lose the first game vs fantasy on BO basis though
He was simply outplayed in both games against Fantasy. As for against Hyuk... no idea why he would go 12 hatch after all the recent 12 hatch incidents.
If he's indeed as good enough as I believe him to be, he will be back in no time.
On August 09 2009 02:42 Hot_Bid wrote: hate to be the emotionless jerk, but i don't feel bad for jaedong at all. he was out-prepared and out-executed. he lost not because of some fluke or unluckiness, but because he played bad. shit happens, nobody is perfect. he won several close finals like OSL over fantasy, and i'm sure that hurt a comparable amount given that fantasy was up 2-0. he's in both major league semifinals now too, and he'll be angry and determined. i'm not going to feel bad for jaedong because oz lost to a clearly superior team in a format that really gave them a great shot at winning.
I dont think the reasons really matter. When Bisu lost the ace match last year to Luxury, he was deeply depressed and in a interview he mentioned that after that game, he stopped playing starcraft for a week. I just know that Jaedong feels like shit at the moment, and given the time he has till his semi final vs fantasy, it will be incredibly hard for him to regroup. The last thing Jaedong is thinking at the moment is how to get up early at 8 am tomorrow and start practicing for the match vs fantasy. Fantasy on the other hand has so much momentum. He will be motivated to rape the world next Friday.
I would feel bad for every player in any sport that is in jaedong's situation at the moment.
As for the people who think his lost to hyuk had anything to do him being out-played our out-prepared, I think the only possible way you could argue that is that Jaedong was out-prepared in the coaching sense.
Ask yourself if you laughed when hyuk manner colonied himself and see if that follows your logic. Everyone in progaming drops a game at unexpected times, but given Jaedong vs Hyuk where 100% of people would agree Jaedong is the better player you can't blame anyone for sympathizing with Jaedong. He probably feels awful for dropping that game vs someone he knows he could beat.
On August 09 2009 02:42 Hot_Bid wrote: hate to be the emotionless jerk, but i don't feel bad for jaedong at all. he was out-prepared and out-executed. he lost not because of some fluke or unluckiness, but because he played bad. shit happens, nobody is perfect. he won several close finals like OSL over fantasy, and i'm sure that hurt a comparable amount given that fantasy was up 2-0. he's in both major league semifinals now too, and he'll be angry and determined. i'm not going to feel bad for jaedong because oz lost to a clearly superior team in a format that really gave them a great shot at winning.
I would just say +1, but these are the most important pieces IMO. It sucks for him, but I don't feel any more sorry for than than I do with other plays I like losing. He's just going to have to keep his mind set so he doesn't get knocked out of the OSL too.
Jaedong has too much on his shoulders, hopefully he doesn't break and slump, and yeah I want him to just roflstomp Fantasy in the OSL , I really liked this blog, its not one sided fanboyism but being more realistic when it comes down to the winners and losers. Hyuk hyukked JD, but JD isn't gonna take this sitting down.
On August 09 2009 02:55 konadora wrote: He was simply outplayed in both games against Fantasy. As for against Hyuk... no idea why he would go 12 hatch after all the recent 12 hatch incidents.
If he's indeed as good enough as I believe him to be, he will be back in no time.
Jaedong thinks he's Flash and can fast expand every game because he is just that good.
On August 09 2009 02:55 konadora wrote: He was simply outplayed in both games against Fantasy. As for against Hyuk... no idea why he would go 12 hatch after all the recent 12 hatch incidents.
If he's indeed as good enough as I believe him to be, he will be back in no time.
Jaedong thinks he's Flash and can fast expand every game because he is just that good.
Hopefully he doesn't end up like Flash ._.
I'm not totally into Jaedong but doesn't he 12 hatch most of his ZvZ games?
On August 09 2009 03:05 Ack1027 wrote: I liked your blog post disciple.
As for the people who think his lost to hyuk had anything to do him being out-played our out-prepared, I think the only possible way you could argue that is that Jaedong was out-prepared in the coaching sense.
Ask yourself if you laughed when hyuk manner colonied himself and see if that follows your logic. Everyone in progaming drops a game at unexpected times, but given Jaedong vs Hyuk where 100% of people would agree Jaedong is the better player you can't blame anyone for sympathizing with Jaedong. He probably feels awful for dropping that game vs someone he knows he could beat.
was hyuk vs jaedong 9p vs 12h? because if that was the case, i can't see why Jaedong would take such an unnecessary risk against a clearly inferior player. i mean why can't he just 12p? if hyuk 12h, he might be slightly ahead, but jaedong can still overpower him with mutas.
On August 09 2009 03:05 Ack1027 wrote: I liked your blog post disciple.
As for the people who think his lost to hyuk had anything to do him being out-played our out-prepared, I think the only possible way you could argue that is that Jaedong was out-prepared in the coaching sense.
Ask yourself if you laughed when hyuk manner colonied himself and see if that follows your logic. Everyone in progaming drops a game at unexpected times, but given Jaedong vs Hyuk where 100% of people would agree Jaedong is the better player you can't blame anyone for sympathizing with Jaedong. He probably feels awful for dropping that game vs someone he knows he could beat.
was hyuk vs jaedong 9p vs 12h? because if that was the case, i can't see why Jaedong would take such an unnecessary risk against a clearly inferior player. i mean why can't he just 12p? if hyuk 12h, he might be slightly ahead, but jaedong can still overpower him with mutas.
12pool vs 12hatch is nearly impossible to win, even with that large of a skill gap.
On August 09 2009 02:55 konadora wrote: He was simply outplayed in both games against Fantasy. As for against Hyuk... no idea why he would go 12 hatch after all the recent 12 hatch incidents.
If he's indeed as good enough as I believe him to be, he will be back in no time.
Jaedong thinks he's Flash and can fast expand every game because he is just that good.
Hopefully he doesn't end up like Flash ._.
I was thinking exactly the same - the top players are just too greedy in their efforts to get early econ advantage. Bisu tends to expand very early in PvP as well and it really pays off, for example vs JangBi on HBR, but its really risky since fending off the first attack is really hard to do, but if you are confident this is the right way to play the game
So I'm guessing from your reply you haven't watched the games yet? Not that it matters...just surprised.
As for why he went 12h expand vs 9p gas trick, I have no idea. I'm not pretending to know. And its as you say, I would agree in my vastly inferior knowledge of ZvZ trying to fight 9p when you 12h expand is like a 80% loss [ as mbc commentators said ] My point however is that you can't blame anyone for feeling bad for him. I mean clearly everyone knows Jaedong is the better player....even if it is as you say and he 12h expanded just because he's so overconfident, does that make him the worse player for that one game, or does it make him worse overall?
I also would like to point to the fact that its proleague grand finals and I'm sure the coach and everyone helping Jaedong knew what a risk it was. Even people who suck like me recognize that you're knowingly putting yourself at a disadvantage by doing the build he did, yet he stuck with it. There must be a reason. Is it Flash syndrome? Did they just guess hyuk would do a different build? I don't know....but I don't think its fair to be like ' well shit he got outplayed you can't feel bad for him '
On August 09 2009 02:55 konadora wrote: He was simply outplayed in both games against Fantasy. As for against Hyuk... no idea why he would go 12 hatch after all the recent 12 hatch incidents.
If he's indeed as good enough as I believe him to be, he will be back in no time.
Jaedong thinks he's Flash and can fast expand every game because he is just that good.
Hopefully he doesn't end up like Flash ._.
I was thinking exactly the same - the top players are just too greedy in their efforts to get early econ advantage. Bisu tends to expands very early in PvP as well and it really pays off, for example vs JangBi on HBR, but its really risky since fending of the first attack is really hard to do, but if you are confident this is the right way to play the game
Yeah Bisu tends to Nexus first in PvZ a lot too, even when he hasn't scouted his opponent properly.
If I recall, in one interview or other, it was mentioned that JulyZerg told by.hero to play a certain way KNOWING that Bisu would definitely double Nexus no matter what.
All the top tier players are just extremely confident in their micro and mechanics, so they fast expand thinking they can pull it off no matter what. And I can easily see Jaedong thinking that there was NO WAY he could lose to a "failzerg" so he decided to 12hatch.
Happens all the time. The S-class players all seem to lose to random scrubs at the most unexpected times, and it's typically because they feel they can get away with playing greedy.
I have the same exact feeling as you man. I am an SKT fan because of their Terrans, but Jaedong has always struck me as a very dedicated person. Him looking so dismayed at losing, and knowing that his team was counting on him more than ever, his humanity appealed to me.
On August 09 2009 01:12 Avidkeystamper wrote: Changed your icon to SKT T1? I actually feel kinda selfish because I would prefer JD winning an individual gold over a PL one, though I'm sure he feels the opposite. There's at least one more season of PL left, but I don't know if Oz will get this chance again =/
That's the main reason I switched from Oz to CJ, because I began to realize that I really wasn't much of an Oz fan but more of a Jaedong fan.
I would also much rather see Jaedong win individual leagues than helping his team win a Proleague one, and Jaedong the individual has so much more potential than Oz the team, imo.
On August 09 2009 02:55 konadora wrote: He was simply outplayed in both games against Fantasy. As for against Hyuk... no idea why he would go 12 hatch after all the recent 12 hatch incidents.
If he's indeed as good enough as I believe him to be, he will be back in no time.
Jaedong thinks he's Flash and can fast expand every game because he is just that good.
Hopefully he doesn't end up like Flash ._.
I'm not totally into Jaedong but doesn't he 12 hatch most of his ZvZ games?
[QUOTE]On August 09 2009 03:30 Kyo Yuy wrote: [QUOTE]On August 09 2009 03:22 disciple wrote: [QUOTE]On August 09 2009 03:14 Kyo Yuy wrote: And I can easily see Jaedong thinking that there was NO WAY he could lose to a "failzerg" so he decided to 12hatch. .[/QUOTE] ... to 12 hatch for which purpose if no way he can lose already??? Lol your argument.
I agree with this sentiment. Although I've been angry at JD quite a few times for knocking out my favorites and wanted SKT1 to win, I do hope he bounces back because he's undeniably one of the best and it'd be sad to see such a monumentally good player go into a slump.
Jaedong vs Fantasy is going to be a great OSL semifinal lol... This was the first PL final that I watched live, and tbh I wasn't too excited until the Lomo won against Best. Then I realized that it was possible that the PL final could conclude with two epic games featuring S-class players only. I was really disappointed.
The thing about it though is it is a TEAM league. It is pretty much common consensus that Jaedong had been carrying his team for virtually the entire year. Does a team really deserve to win because of one all-star player? I think SKT is overall a better team with a much stronger line-up. Honestly I think most people would agree to that.
For that reason I'm kind of glad Jaedong 'choked' in the games he needed to win. I think team leagues should be won by the best TEAM, not the best player.
That said, Jaedong is by far my favorite player (big surprise) and I hope he wins the individual leagues. Those are where he deserves to excel and he earns every win.
And one thing for Hot_Bid: Of course Jaedong got out-prepared... Fantasy was able to practice TvZ for a much longer time because their team was seeded first. But regardless, I think the final result is what it should have been. If it went to a super ace match it would just be JD carrying the team again, instead of the team coming together (they did play amazing on night 2, I'll give them that).
Man I feel the exact same way. I don't begrudge SKT their win, but I wish it didn't come at the cost of such bitterness for Jaedong. It's rare that you see him let OZ down rather than the other way around.
I would have much preferred consecutive 4-1's, with Jaedong winning his games, to this.
In situations like that, you tend to not think objectively. He may completely forget about how he was the one that brought the team to the finals, the only thing that'll be in his head now is how out of 3 games in the finals, when games REALLY matter, he lost all 3.
But the team will hopefully help him stay real and realize that he's done a great thing by carrying the team this far.
Yeah, you noob Jaedong. 12hatching such a bad build!!!!
what your point? That you can also win with 12 hatch? What does this game have to do with anything, it was 12 hatch vs 12 pool (or 11 pool cause of gas first), BO advantage for Jaedong, and it's a larger map, very unlike 12 hatch vs 9pool speed on a 3 player map
[17:42] <SKT_walrus> wow, jd lost all 3 of his games in the finals [17:42] <SKT_walrus> now I'm kinda sad [17:43] <Delerium> yeah it's pretty gay [17:43] <kleer> >:[ [17:43] <NotHarem> you can unsad yourself after he wins golden mouse and msl, walrus
Yeah I feel pretty much the same way as you disciple, but look on the bright side. ^^
Edit: Quick, should I spoiler that since it kinda spoils how msl and osl have been going?
I do feel really bad for Jaedong too. He made some pretty strange and bad decisions in his first game against Fantasy and against Hyuk (12 hatch against someone saying right before to the crowd that he has been planning and preparing for this game for awhile wut), but I hope that he will be feeding off of the motivation to play better in the OSL against Fantasy. He was caught unprepared in the ace match, but I think now that he realizes he has not only fantasy, but boxer and oov planning fantasy's games, he will rise to the occasion and beat him in the OSL. It's a pretty epic setup, one lone but amazing player, versus another amazing player backed by two of the best minds in the industry.
Also past all of this, I'm actually really proud of Oz as a team for the second day. They showed that even with jaedong losing, they can still pull through and win when it counts. I'm really proud of Lomo especially. ^__^
I was momentously disappointed with Jaedong. All these times, Ive kept thinking, "this guy is unstoppable, this guy will change the zerg race and starcraft forever..." Don't get me wrong, Jaedong can seem unstoppable at times and he has revolutionized Zerg, however, he is HUMAN, and humans ALWAYS make errors. Just because he lost 3 crucial games for Pro League finals does not mean he is over, he just needs to get back up again...no biggy. I will always love Jaedong for he has made me a good starcraft player and has provided me with countless hours of entertainment.
On August 09 2009 13:21 eurellum wrote: Jaedong always loses the first match in a Best of X series, he just lost the first 2 games to fantasy, so in OLS, hes going to 3-0 him.
I've just finished watching all the games... as a Jaedong fanboy I'm sad too, but I also feel like it's not really his fault. As good as he is, nobody expects him to win 100% of his games, especially against someone as good as fantasy. It sucks that he lost the zvz match also, but still, that happens even to the best.
This is like when Federer got crushed in French Open final 2008, lost agonising matches in Wimbleon final 2008 and Australian Open 2009.
And then he came back to win French Open 2009 and Wimbledon 2009. Can Jaedong win both the MSL and OSL? Like Federer, he is the GOAT (greatest of all time), in my opinion, and he definitely has the ability.
On August 09 2009 19:24 ssj114 wrote: This is like when Federer got crushed in French Open final 2008, lost agonising matches in Wimbleon final 2008 and Australian Open 2009.
And then he came back to win French Open 2009 and Wimbledon 2009. Can Jaedong win both the MSL and OSL? Like Federer, he is the GOAT (greatest of all time), in my opinion, and he definitely has the ability.
If fantasy breaks his arm, just like Nadal got injured, then yes it's very likely he'll win both ^^
On August 09 2009 19:24 ssj114 wrote: This is like when Federer got crushed in French Open final 2008, lost agonising matches in Wimbleon final 2008 and Australian Open 2009.
And then he came back to win French Open 2009 and Wimbledon 2009. Can Jaedong win both the MSL and OSL? Like Federer, he is the GOAT (greatest of all time), in my opinion, and he definitely has the ability.
If fantasy breaks his arm, just like Nadal got injured, then yes it's very likely he'll win both ^^
More like if boxer/oov are tragically murdered and haven't already given fantasy 3 strats/cheeses then yes it is very likely JD will win both.
It hurts when you are one of the best players in the world, and you lose to some random players that barely have a 40% winning percentage [ Hyuk, Orion].But it hurts more when you lose to these players in a situation where the WHOLE TEAM is counting on you to win. Jaedong is definitely emotionally battered, and this is probably the lowest point in his career, but Jaedong will be hungry, and angry and will come back to rape Fantasy. + Show Spoiler +
EPT
... the only scenario where i'd feel worse would be if the same happened to KT/Flash
, I really liked this blog, its not one sided fanboyism but being more realistic when it comes down to the winners and losers. Hyuk hyukked JD, but JD isn't gonna take this sitting down.
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