On July 11 2009 02:48 Railz wrote: I love people who use the word "open mind". You know right off the bat they're hypocritical. No self respecting person has to use it to refer to an idea and portray it to others. An open mind suggests there is no right or wrong, just believe what is proven. Nothing in politics is ever proven.
Seems as though I would disagree.
The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.
That doesn't matter. The amount of liberty doesn't equate to anything. It makes for a better way of life individually perhaps, but those in China have no problem against this till they're blue in the face as you would be too.
Liberty equates to nothing in politics.
Freedom and Liberty is the sole reason for the American Revolution. If you so despise your albeit more and more limited version of freedom and liberty, well there are countries that have vastly inferior freedom and liberty.
The US Constitution sole purpose is to secure the rights, freedoms, and liberty of the people. The Articles of Confederation were inadequate at securing these liberties so that is why they were scrapped for the Constitution.
Philosophy is everything in politics. Utilitarianism only ends up with millions killed. It has in every single case throughout history.
If freedom and liberty "is" the sole reason for the American Revolution, then why did the Framers impose so many restrictions on voting? Restrictions that were only overcome with the rise of populist figures (who were often awful in action) like Andrew Jackson. American history isn't as romantic as you portray it.
Also, when utilitarianism kills millions, it feeds billions.
You seem to be forgetting that hundreds of thousands of people fought in the war. Their reasons for fighting are not necessarily represented in the politics of the era. Just as it is right now.
On July 11 2009 03:34 Aegraen wrote: Freedom and Liberty is the sole reason for the American Revolution.
Laughably wrong.
Aegraen get your historical facts straight. American Revolutionists wanted Freedom and Liberty from who?
In very same time these same American Revolutionists enjoyed thousands of their niggers.
USA is built from the biggest hypocrisy of all time, to this very day there is no such thing as freedom and liberty, not all man are created equal, there is no such thing as human right. You want evidence?
Ah yes, the Sons of Liberty never existed. Patrick Henry and "Give me Liberty or Give me death" was never said. The Declaration of Independence was never penned (I would recommend you read it sometime).
I know better than most that the US history was tumultuos (I'm half cherokee, trail of tears anyone?), but at the same time our Founders were the most ardent supporters in the history of the world for a nation conceived in personal liberty and freedom.
On July 11 2009 02:48 Railz wrote: I love people who use the word "open mind". You know right off the bat they're hypocritical. No self respecting person has to use it to refer to an idea and portray it to others. An open mind suggests there is no right or wrong, just believe what is proven. Nothing in politics is ever proven.
Seems as though I would disagree.
The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.
That doesn't matter. The amount of liberty doesn't equate to anything. It makes for a better way of life individually perhaps, but those in China have no problem against this till they're blue in the face as you would be too.
Liberty equates to nothing in politics.
Freedom and Liberty is the sole reason for the American Revolution. If you so despise your albeit more and more limited version of freedom and liberty, well there are countries that have vastly inferior freedom and liberty.
The US Constitution sole purpose is to secure the rights, freedoms, and liberty of the people. The Articles of Confederation were inadequate at securing these liberties so that is why they were scrapped for the Constitution.
Philosophy is everything in politics. Utilitarianism only ends up with millions killed. It has in every single case throughout history.
If freedom and liberty "is" the sole reason for the American Revolution, then why did the Framers impose so many restrictions on voting? Restrictions that were only overcome with the rise of populist figures (who were often awful in action) like Andrew Jackson. American history isn't as romantic as you portray it.
Also, when utilitarianism kills millions, it feeds billions.
Did I say the American Revolution was perfect? Anyways, the Constitution and Bill of Rights had all the tools necessary to fix whatever ails it. In Edmund Burkes famous words:
A State without the means of some change is without the means of its conservation.
Utilitarianism doesn't feed billions, it caused mass starvation in Russia when Stalin collectivized the farms for 'the greater good'.
@Travis i'm talking about the fact that they were slave owners shouting out loud for their own freedom, how is that unrelated? they are related in 3 different ways 1: same time, owning of their slaves and out cry for freedom happens in the same time. 2: same people: the leaders of revolution are slave owners. 3: same place: they own their slaves in America, they wanted freedom of America.
@Aegraen you are right the Revolution is not perfect, the constitution and bill of rights had all the tools for us later generations.
however, what you said was "Freedom and Liberty is the sole reason for the American Revolution."
All i did was provide evidence that suggests freedom and liberty is not the SOLE reason for the American revolution, if the ideal of freedom is the sole reason then they would have freed their slaves.
I'm aiming on the word SOLE.
What is your evidence proving that freedom and liberty is the SOLE reason for American Revolution?
Please forgive me of my ridiculous assumptions, I am sorry if the following assumption is way off. Could you meant only freedom and liberty of American from England? and not Freedom and liberty for all human? are you suggesting that Freedom and liberty is prejudice? The whites deserve freedom and liberty from England, but the Blacks don't from their owners?
I apologize for making bad assumptions, but i'm making them to prove a point, which is true freedom and liberty is without race, without culture.
Leaders put the revolutionists together with the soul calling of 'don't tread on me' but the leaders attentions had many different spans. Ranging from something as simple as taxing, land ownership, right up to currency; ie economic reasons.
On July 11 2009 12:39 rei wrote: @Travis i'm talking about the fact that they were slave owners shouting out loud for their own freedom, how is that unrelated? they are related in 3 different ways 1: same time, owning of their slaves and out cry for freedom happens in the same time. 2: same people: the leaders of revolution are slave owners. 3: same place: they own their slaves in America, they wanted freedom of America.
@Aegraen you are right the Revolution is not perfect, the constitution and bill of rights had all the tools for us later generations.
however, what you said was "Freedom and Liberty is the sole reason for the American Revolution."
All i did was provide evidence that suggests freedom and liberty is not the SOLE reason for the American revolution, if the ideal of freedom is the sole reason then they would have freed their slaves.
I'm aiming on the word SOLE.
What is your evidence proving that freedom and liberty is the SOLE reason for American Revolution?
Please forgive me of my ridiculous assumptions, I am sorry if the following assumption is way off. Could you meant only freedom and liberty of American from England? and not Freedom and liberty for all human? are you suggesting that Freedom and liberty is prejudice? The whites deserve freedom and liberty from England, but the Blacks don't from their owners?
I apologize for making bad assumptions, but i'm making them to prove a point, which is true freedom and liberty is without race, without culture.
I'm beginning to think your idea of Freedom and Liberty is idealistic in Anarchy. Yes, Freedom and Liberty was the sole reason for the American Revolution. In case you didn't know yet, the colonies revolted against the crown, King George.
You have not laid forth any other valid reasons why the colonies revolted.
If you have any doubts don't take me at my words, take my Founders at theirs:
"[L]iberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood." -- John Adams, 1765
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin, 1759
"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -- Patrick Henry
"Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Beside, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of Nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us." -- Patrick Henry
"That these are our grievances which we have thus laid before his majesty, with that freedom of language and sentiment which becomes a free people claiming their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1774
"One of the most essential branches of English liberty is the freedom of one's house. A man's house is his castle." -- James Otis, 1761
"These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their county; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny like hell is not easily conquered yet we have this consolation with us, the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value." -- Tom Paine (Note the use of the word Tyranny)
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Tom Paine
"Nevertheless, to the persecution and tyranny of his cruel ministry we will not tamely submit -- appealing to Heaven for the justice of our cause, we determine to die or be free." -- Joseph Warren, 1775
"We began a contest for liberty ill provided with the means for the war, relying on our patriotism to supply the deficiency. We expected to encounter many wants and distressed… we must bear the present evils and fortitude…" -- George Washington in 1781
"Our own Country's Honor, all call upon us for a vigorous and manly exertion, and if we now shamefully fail, we shall become infamous to the whole world. Let us therefore rely upon the goodness of the Cause, and the aid of the supreme Being, in whose hands Victory is, to animate and encourage us to great and noble Actions -- The Eyes of all our Countrymen are now upon us, and we shall have their blessings, and praises, if happily we are the instruments of saving them from the Tyranny mediated against them. Let us therefore animate and encourage each other, and show the whole world, that a free man contending for Liberty on his own ground is superior to any slavish mercenary on earth." -- George Washington, 1776
"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time." - Thomas Jefferson
"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution, are worth defending against all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks." Samuel Adams
The signatories' "hopes have been raised and confirmed by the declarations...with regard to equal liberty...[and] that having long groaned under the burden of ecclesiastical establishment [the established Church of England in Virginia], they pray that this, as well as every other yoke, may be broken and that the oppressed may go free. – Signatories of the "ten-thousand name" petition, circulated by the Baptists, submitted to Virginia's first House of Delegates in the fall of 1776
Your problem is you are viewing the late 1700's through the lens and thought process of a 21st centry person. In the 1700s it was the norm in the world for slave ownership. Yes, it was wrong and morally reprehensible and yes many of the Founders understood this. They also understood that if they were to try and specify that slave ownership was illegal there would have been no U.S. The colonies would not have ratified the Constitution nor the Articles of Confederation. Lastly and most importantly the Freedom and Liberty you enjoy today you owe to those brave men in 1776.
P.S. World War II was definitely not even remotely connected to 1776. My god, our education system is in dire straits...
On July 11 2009 12:58 Railz wrote: Leaders put the revolutionists together with the soul calling of 'don't tread on me' but the leaders attentions had many different spans. Ranging from something as simple as taxing, land ownership, right up to currency; ie economic reasons.
Wrong. The signers knew they were signing their own death warrants. They sacrificed everything they had for the cause of Liberty and Freedom.
Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.
Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.
Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.
Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr. noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.
Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later, he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more.
You must understand, those who fought and those who signed the Declaration had no idea they were going to succeed. They had conviction, bravery, and courage to stand up against the mightiest Empire in the world. Can you honestly sit there and believe if you were Thomas Paine in 1776 that you were signing the Declaration to advance your own private economic gains? How much folly that line of thinking would have been.
Aegraen quote actions please, not words, words mean nothing without quoting what they did, i'm sure it should be easy for you.
"Yes, it was wrong and morally reprehensible and yes many of the Founders understood this. They also understood that if they were to try and specify that slave ownership was illegal there would have been no U.S. " At least here you admit that USA land of the free is built up on slavery, and they did it knowing they were wrong.
I am aware of the evolution of morality, what is conceived as permissible back then is not morally permissible now. But the matter of the fact is that these people you are speaking are wise, they knew what they did was wrong, yet they did it anyways, hence, i'm saying their hypocrisy knew no bounds.
as for "You have not laid forth any other valid reasons why the colonies revolted." I didn't laid forth any other reasons at all because all i needed is to point out the weakness in your SOLE reason for the revolution, which is hypocrisy. A logical person capable of critical thinking and open minded person such as you claimed yourself to be WILL logically seek out other could be alternative reasons for the revolution.
"P.S. World War II was definitely not even remotely connected to 1776. My god, our education system is in dire straits..."
World war II was just one of the many examples I can use to demonstrate the failure of American Government following the consititution and bill of right, which, Maybe is somewhat connected to 1776? Freedom and Liberty is prejudice against TIME also??? not just race and culture such as Freedom for the whites, but slavery for the blacks? what freedom and liberty is back in 1776 is no longer freedom and liberty in 1942?
and no god does not exist, especially your god, if you think so prove it, our education system is in dire straits, but I am in a unique position to fix it. It has already started with my class.
On July 11 2009 16:50 rei wrote: Aegraen quote actions please, not words, words mean nothing without quoting what they did, i'm sure it should be easy for you.
"Yes, it was wrong and morally reprehensible and yes many of the Founders understood this. They also understood that if they were to try and specify that slave ownership was illegal there would have been no U.S. " At least here you admit that USA land of the free is built up on slavery, and they did it knowing they were wrong.
I am aware of the evolution of morality, what is conceived as permissible back then is not morally permissible now. But the matter of the fact is that these people you are speaking are wise, they knew what they did was wrong, yet they did it anyways, hence, i'm saying their hypocrisy knew no bounds.
as for "You have not laid forth any other valid reasons why the colonies revolted." I didn't laid forth any other reasons at all because all i needed is to point out the weakness in your SOLE reason for the revolution, which is hypocrisy. A logical person capable of critical thinking and open minded person such as you claimed yourself to be WILL logically seek out other could be alternative reasons for the revolution.
"P.S. World War II was definitely not even remotely connected to 1776. My god, our education system is in dire straits..."
World war II was just one of the many examples I can use to demonstrate the failure of American Government following the consititution and bill of right, which, Maybe is somewhat connected to 1776? Freedom and Liberty is prejudice against TIME also??? not just race and culture such as Freedom for the whites, but slavery for the blacks? what freedom and liberty is back in 1776 is no longer freedom and liberty in 1942?
and no god does not exist, especially your god, if you think so prove it, our education system is in dire straits, but I am in a unique position to fix it. It has already started with my class.
Please tell me you are not a teacher, especially not a history or english teacher.
Here let me address your points, line by line.
You want action: Revolutionary War (What is the whole point to Revolutions: Ideas *wink wink*)
The US was not built upon slavery. The US was built on the idea of a Constitutional Republic that embraced Adam Smith and the philosophical symbiotic relationship between Capitalism and Freedom and Liberty.
Hypocrisy? It's called a realistic approach. For example, I'd love to do a lot of things that would benefit the country (Specifically: Abolishing the IRS), but it certainly isn't feasible in this political climate (Even though the time is encroaching very fast), just as the Founders knew it was impossible to create the U.S. in the late 1780's with the explicit prohibition of slavery. Do you understand that the Constitution would not have been ratified, thus slavery would still have been legal and on top of that, there would be no U.S., but 13 seperate sovereign nations. So, the choice was, slavery legal adoption of the US Constitution (knowing full well that the next generations would end up abolishing it) or slavery legal 13 seperate nations.
My arguement is flawless. Every single historian, scholar, and anyone that can pick up the Declaration of Independence understands the reason for the American Revolution. You however, claim no alternative reason and have no supportive arguement, yet I conclusively show you why the Founders started the American Revolution. This is like talking with a deaf child.
I'm not even going to dignify a response to the last paragraph it's that absurd.
On July 11 2009 19:11 Manifesto7 wrote: You arguments are overshadowed by your arrogance Aegraen. I suggest you learn to debate without insults or no one will take you seriously.
One would have never imagined people would believe that the American Revolution was for anything, but Freedom and Liberty as it is only the keystone highlight in the Declaration of Independence.
On July 11 2009 19:11 Manifesto7 wrote: You arguments are overshadowed by your arrogance Aegraen. I suggest you learn to debate without insults or no one will take you seriously.
One would have never imagined people would believe that the American Revolution was for anything, but Freedom and Liberty as it is only the keystone highlight in the Declaration of Independence.
One would hope you are not a debate coach or lawyer, as you have squandered your opportunity to respond to his concern so that you may reiterate your thesis for the umpteenth time. One could listen to so many politicians and pundits that one could do no more than parrot their habits. One desires open-mindedness indeed, but perhaps one asks it of the wrong person.
Aegraen I offer no alternative reasons because I want you to find them, if they came from me, you will not believe it, doesn't matter how much Wall of text and how much evidence i mount. Why do i make that assumption? Your Arrogance is my evidence, you have already made up your mind that I am an idiot who came out of a dire straits educational system
Why do you assume I believe revolution was not for freedom and liberty? I only said freedom and liberty is not the sole reason, and there are other alternative reasons you will have to find them yourselves. Stop making assumptions if I did not explicitly state what my beliefs are.
In the matter of American Revolution I believe Revolution was for freedom and liberty of only one group of people, but not all, I gave you evidence, I gave you reason, your admitted my evidence is true, you said they indeed own black slaves.
oh yea i'm a teacher, be more condenscending please. Don't name your topic open minded if you are not willing to consider the evidences into logics. I even linked you a youtube video on what open minded is. go watch till the very end, and reflect on what you have being saying.
I don't understand these social-studies related subjects. How have people argued what the founding fathers wanted for over 200 years? Is in not clear for some reason what they wanted (I don't know, I'm only asking).
It seems like you can just carefully choose words and quotes to support whatever you want, it's like religion.
On July 11 2009 03:03 Fontong wrote: "Conservatism is on the rise...we are right."
How could you expect any liberal to take this cast seriously after hearing those lines. He is basically saying that "this is going to be ridiculously biased"
thx for trying
yeah lol once he justified his statement by saying 'because we are right' i stopped listening
On July 12 2009 02:28 Ancestral wrote: I don't understand these social-studies related subjects. How have people argued what the founding fathers wanted for over 200 years? Is in not clear for some reason what they wanted (I don't know, I'm only asking).
It seems like you can just carefully choose words and quotes to support whatever you want, it's like religion.
Well, there's a lot of first hand (quotes, letters, books) and second hand (someone else's observations, what others thought of someone else, etc.) data left over from that period. While, yes, one can cherry pick words to support his/her own agenda, the general idea is to look at all that data in aggregate and try to deduce what people of that period actually thought. Of course, it's not very clear cut, and even without deliberately trying to interpret data in one way or another, many different analyses do occur.
"Freedom and Liberty is the reason for the American Revolution." Yep, that's the answer you're given in school to make to feel good about yourself and your country. The truth is never what it seems, guys.
The main reason for the revolution was because Britain wouldn't allow America to have their own debt-free currency. The British wanted America to borrow money from the British central bank, which was loaned at interest. Other reasons were economic in nature. What they told the common people was "freedom and liberty."
Whoever follows the radio to form their entire opinion on an issue is narrow-minded. People who listen to radio shows like this have no clue about what's going on, they know nothing about ecomonics -- they aren't educated in any of the matters going on right now.
And yet we listen to a guy that says "Obama is bullcrap", and a bunch of facts he just reads off and expects all his listeners to believe him -- and they do, pathetically.
I'm not going to give an opinion, because I don't have a right to bash or support shit I don't understand. If I weren't lazy, I'd sit down everyday and actually research this issue, but I don't do that, and neither does 99% of our population.
EPT
