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discrete mathematics problem

Blogs > swat
Post a Reply
swat
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Australia142 Posts
May 07 2009 14:47 GMT
#1
Hey guys have a math problem and thought maybe I could get some help

I have to prove that 1 / sqrt(2) is a irrational number.

By proving via contradiction I attempt to prove it is a rational number and draw a contradiction. Now.. it cannot be as simple as stating if we are assuming 1 / sqrt(2) is rational this implies that the sqrt(2) is rational (since a rational number cannot be a rational numerator / irrational denominator???? or can it???). Then go ahead and draw a contradiction from working on (with more proof) that the sqrt(2) = a rational number? (as I know how to prove sqrt(2) is irrational).

Yeah... so my issue is, can I can get rational number from a rational numerator and irrational denominator? Or should I just be attempting to prove it another way via contradiction?

It is just the fraction business which is muddling my thoughts

Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
May 07 2009 14:52 GMT
#2
Let me google that for you

+ Show Spoiler +
To prove: The square root of 2 is irrational. In other words, there
is no rational number whose square is 2.

Proof by contradiction: Begin by assuming that the thesis is false,
that is, that there does exist a rational number whose square is 2.

By definition of a rational number, that number can be expressed in
the form c/d, where c and d are integers, and d is not zero.
Moreover, those integers, c and d, have a greatest common divisor,
and by dividing each by that GCD, we obtain an equivalent fraction
a/b that is in lowest terms: a and b are integers, b is not zero,
and a and b are relatively prime (their GCD is 1).

Now we have

[1] (a/b)^2 = 2

Multiplying both sides by b^2, we have

[2] a^2 = 2b^2

The right side is even (2 times an integer), therefore a^2 is even.
But in order for the square of a number to be even, the number
itself must be even. Therefore we can write

[3] a = 2f

Using this to replace a in [2], we obtain

[4] (2f)^2 = 2b^2
[5] 4f^2 = 2b^2
[6] 2f^2 = b^2

The left side is even, therefore b^2 must be even, and by the same
reasoning as before, b must be even. But now we have found that both
a and b are even, contradicting the assumption that a and b are
relatively prime. Therefore the assumption is incorrect, and there
must NOT be a rational number whose square is 2.
=======================================================

That's my proof. Admittedly it still leaves out some steps, for
instance a proof that if the square of a number is even then the
number itself must be even. But I filled in the part that had you
confused.

-Doctor Rick, The Math Forum
Check out our web site! http://mathforum.org/dr.math/


That's the proof that sqrt(2) is irrational. So I'm sure you can figure out the rest.
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
swat
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Australia142 Posts
May 07 2009 14:56 GMT
#3
btw proving irrational sqrt(2).

proof contradiction, prove sqrt(2) rational that is
sqrt(2) = m/n (where m,n are integers and n!=0 via the definition of rational numbers).
by dividing through any common factors of m and n we obtain
sqrt(2) = p/q where gcd(p,q)=1. we then square both sides and get
2 = (p/q)^2
multiply both sides by q^2 gives ya
2q^2 = p^2
as 2q^2 is even, p^2 is even. For p^2 to be even, p must be even. therefore we can state p = 2k so we obtain

2q^2 = (2k)^2 which equals
2q^2 = 4k^2
q^2 = 2k^2
and since the right hand side is even then q^2 must be even and as stated before that means q is even but if both p & q are even that means gcd(p,q) != 1 therefore the assumption is wrong and it is not a rational number...

I just don't know how to prove now for 1 / sqrt(2) :s
swat
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Australia142 Posts
May 07 2009 14:58 GMT
#4
yeah I know how to do it for sqrt(2) did it earlier in the week but lets just say divisibility is not my strong suit
swat
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Australia142 Posts
May 07 2009 15:01 GMT
#5
Anyway it is pretty late here going to go to bed and hopefully work on it some more in the morning :s

got a php assessment due tomorrow and statistical problems due too zzz haha.
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
May 07 2009 15:10 GMT
#6
Isn't 1/sqrt(2) trivial? It's just one more step. If sqrt(2) were rational, it could be expressed as c/d. This would make 1/sqrt(2) = d/c.
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-07 15:26:55
May 07 2009 15:25 GMT
#7
On May 08 2009 00:10 LTT wrote:
Isn't 1/sqrt(2) trivial? It's just one more step. If sqrt(2) were rational, it could be expressed as c/d. This would make 1/sqrt(2) = d/c.


I don't think it's trivial.
By your logic, 1/sqrt(9) is not a rational number because it is not expressed as c/d. At least this is my opinion, but I can be wrong.
And all is illuminated.
T.Sqd)LillTT
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Lithuania149 Posts
May 07 2009 15:26 GMT
#8
OH MY FUCKIN GOD
There are two ways of stoping a 4pool. 1. With a 4 pool. 2. With a drophack...
swat
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Australia142 Posts
May 07 2009 15:42 GMT
#9
was just lying in bed and though about the same way LTT..

since trying to prove sqrt(2) rational = m/n

so the equation is 1 / (m/n)

so (1/1) / (m/n)

= n/m

and then work from there? that 1/sqrt(2) = n / m ? (but doesn't that screw up the definition of a rational number since now the denominator could possibly be 0?)

if I do go down that road then 1^2 / 2 = (n/m)^2 (just squared both sides)

1 = 2(n/m)^2

doesn't seem right cause by using associativity of multiplication I end up with

1 = 2n^2 / 2m^2

which then I get 2m^2 = 2n^2... which I then could claim since n^2 is even n is even so n = 2k then

2m^2 = 2(2k)^2

= 2m^2 = 2(4k^2)

= m^2 = 4k^2 which means m^2 is even and therefore m is even... and I arrive at the contradiction that since we said GCD(m,n) = 1 (errr... well, in the prove when I write it I will state that ) but now we have even numbers where gcd(m,n) > 1... therefore 1 / sqrt(2) is irrational?
paper
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
13197 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-07 16:57:15
May 07 2009 16:14 GMT
#10
In mathematics, an irrational number is any real number that is not a rational number—that is, it is a number which cannot be expressed as a fraction m/n, where m and n are integers, with n non-zero.

so flip m and n and you have this case?

AMIRITE LOLZ?!?/1/1
Hates Fun🤔
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3479 Posts
May 07 2009 16:45 GMT
#11
Actually this works for any irrational number:
A- if a is irrational then (a)^-1 is irrational. Thats all. You just have to prove that and
B- sqrt(2) irrational.

To proof A is direct after you proof that product of rational(nonzero) and irrational is irrational.
- Let a rational(nonzero!), b irrational. Then a*b=c cant be rational. (because b=c*a^-1 and b irrational and c*a^-1rational. A rational is never equal to a rational.) Then I*R=I while R!=0.
To proof A: suppose a irrational and a^-1 rational => a*a^-1=1 is irrational ( =><= )

Then sqrt(2) irrational => 1/sqrt(2) irrational.
QED.

Well i guess i passed some simple facts like
-rational*rational= rational (a/b*c/d=a*c/(b*d))
-that no rational is irrational
-1 is rational
- if a!=0 => a^-1!=0 .
but they are sooo direct.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
aznmathfreak
Profile Joined March 2009
United States148 Posts
May 07 2009 17:02 GMT
#12
On May 08 2009 00:10 LTT wrote:
Isn't 1/sqrt(2) trivial? It's just one more step. If sqrt(2) were rational, it could be expressed as c/d. This would make 1/sqrt(2) = d/c.


LTT's right. It is trivial, because all rational numbers can be expressed as c/d, for some integer c and d. Therefore, a proof by contradiction saying that 1/rad 2 is rational, would mean that it can be expressed as c/d. Therefore rad 2 can be expressed as d/c, which based on another proof is false.

Therefore it's 1/rad 2 cannot be rational.
Polemarch
Profile Joined August 2005
Canada1564 Posts
May 07 2009 17:18 GMT
#13
It's probably better to prove this from first principles instead of piggybacking on the sqrt(2) proof, but if you do want to piggyback, you can save a bit of trouble in worrying about whether c/d are zeroes if you think of 1/sqrt(2) as half of sqrt(2), instead of its reciprocal.

(Assume that 1/sqrt(2) is rational, then it can be expressed as c / d where c,d are integers, d != 0. But then multiplying by two, we get sqrt(2) = (2c) / d. But this is impossible since 2c, d are integers with d != 0, and we know that sqrt(2) is an irrational number. Thus, 1/sqrt(2) must be irrational.)
I BELIEVE IN CAPITAL LETTER PUNISHMENT!!!!!
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
May 07 2009 17:41 GMT
#14
Should have googled. There are like 10 different proofs flying on the internet.
:]
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
May 07 2009 17:53 GMT
#15
I don't get it, are school help threads allowed again?
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
May 07 2009 18:57 GMT
#16
nope.
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
May 07 2009 18:58 GMT
#17
if they are, i missed the memo.
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
May 07 2009 19:01 GMT
#18
On May 08 2009 03:58 SnowFantasy wrote:
if they are, i missed the memo.


I feel that not enough people got the memo of them being disallowed...
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
May 07 2009 19:24 GMT
#19
On May 08 2009 04:01 Archaic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2009 03:58 SnowFantasy wrote:
if they are, i missed the memo.


I feel that not enough people got the memo of them being disallowed...

About that, where did they say that they are disallowed? I can't find it under the forum rules and shouldn't they somehow notice you when they change them?
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
May 07 2009 20:33 GMT
#20
They are only really forbidden when chill is online and in a bad mood, there is nothing official afaik.
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
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