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*games with Fantasy are spolied somewhat in this post, but nothing that isnt a week old*
So after Fantasy pulled out "the fantasy build" against GGPlay, he has had several games that involve, IMO, very neat/entertaining/creative builds/strats. Including but not limited to his recent 2-fact builds vs Jangbi, his vulture drop on Stork in the OSL final, and going goliaths and ghosts+lockdown to counter Sea's BCs.
Now granted, a lot of these strats end in failure, but my god fantasy has become easily one of the most entertaining terrans playing the game right now, and is now one of my favorite terran players (and one of the few players on SKT1 I like).
Ever since the start of his rise to fame, people have given ALL credit of his play (except for mechanics) to his coach Oov, who he himself even said (I'm not totally for sure the exact quote) that oov helped him immensely with the build/created the build himself.
Now what I want to know how much credit we should give to Fantasy. I was talking to my friend hasuprotoss about how I really like Fantasy as of late, and how I love how creative his builds seem to be, and he replied something along the lines of "YOU MEAN YOU LOVE HOW CREATIVE OOV IS!"
So I want to know, should oov be receiving all credit for Fantasy's games? Is fantasy just a vessel that oov(and possibly boxer) poor their creativity into? Or should fantasy be getting more credit for his play (as I think he actually is behind a lot of his creative plays)?
Poll: Are fantasy's creative plays all oov?
(Vote): Yes, Oov has all the brains
(Vote): No, Fantasy deserves the credit for his work
Personally, I like to think that Fantasy himself is behind a lot of his strats(probably not all, but he's not just doing exactly what oov tells him to do), and is a worthy successor to oov and boxer as "the SKT1 Terran player that is good." His play always sort of reminds me a little of a very mechanically-sound boxer that plays a little safer.
  
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Where's the 'It's the combination of Fantasy's ability to understand, and modify/execute and Oov's coaching' option?
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On February 11 2009 05:47 Mikilatov wrote:
Where's the 'It's the combination of Fantasy's ability to understand, and modify/execute and Oov's coaching' option?
unthought of
EDIT- Actually I think that option is more "it's oov's idea but fantasy can execute it better." Isn't it?
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
iirc... fantasy was only known for his macro, not creativity during his amateur days? That'd lead me to believe it's at the least, because of influence from oov/boxer (even if they didnt directly give him the builds etc)
But I dont think there's any way to truly know other than asking them in person.
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I've never regarded the "fantasy build" as being creative. iirc Ma Jae Yoon HIMSELF said that the mech build fantasy used was actually an old build that was completely unexpected, making it look incredibly strong.
Also iirc, Midas and Mind both used the same build on Plasma earlier in that OSL against TheZerg and Luxury respectively if I'm not mistaken... I'm not T so I don't know much about the build.
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On February 11 2009 06:15 o3.power91 wrote:
I've never regarded the "fantasy build" as being creative. iirc Ma Jae Yoon HIMSELF said that the mech build fantasy used was actually an old build that was completely unexpected, making it look incredibly strong.
Also iirc, Midas and Mind both used the same build on Plasma earlier in that OSL against TheZerg and Luxury respectively if I'm not mistaken... I'm not T so I don't know much about the build.
I'm not saying that the fantasy build was his only creative build. Watch he last 2 games vs Jangbi, he does really cool 2fact rushes. (while a 2fact rush itself is not that creative, the way he executes it is really unique and fun to watch)
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On February 11 2009 05:50 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2009 05:47 Mikilatov wrote:
Where's the 'It's the combination of Fantasy's ability to understand, and modify/execute and Oov's coaching' option? unthought of EDIT- Actually I think that option is more "it's oov's idea but fantasy can execute it better." Isn't it?
Haha, I suppose, although... Fantasy probably much better when it comes to adapting, understanding, etc, when it comes to the build. I think it's a combination of both player and coach talents.
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Mind of BoxeR, execution of oOv _:D
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Does anyone else find it an interesting coincidence that his name is 'Fantasy" and he's showing signs of creativity lately?
I don't think oov should get all the credit. In my opinion, even if a smart coach like oov CAN come up with highly unorthodox builds, I was always under the impression that coaches always insist hard on their players practicing a lot for mechanics (you do this by playing standard) and timing (again, standard). I don't think your Korean coach could advice you to use very weird builds, except in extraordinary circumstances.
My point is that although oov helped and encouraged Fantasy to develop his strange builds, the initiative must have been his own.
I can't picture any coach, not even oov (who was known for his ultra-boring style, LOL, but that doesn't matter that much since he's had a ton of experience with boxer) advising a player against a straight up game, well, at least not that often.
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fantasy is being creative because of oov. oov came up with the 'fantasy build' because he didnt get to play a lot and wanted to come up with a ray to revolutionize tvz as a coach.
The biggest praise from skt that fantasy has got is that he follows instructions well. Read into that what you want
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United States12607 Posts
Fantasy always played with a quite unique style - heavy use of dropships TvP, etc. I think, while oov may have come up with some of the basic elements of the strategies Fantasy has used recently, there's no way Fantasy himself has been totally uninvolved in conceiving these builds (especially when you consider how well Fantasy has executed them).
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United States2186 Posts
I had been wondering this myself too so I think it's a useful mental exercise to go through.
He's on a team with Boxer and iloveoov, the two most creative and smartest minds in the scene, and the better of those two is his personal coach. I think its very unlikely that Fantasy is just going to come up with a build out of thin air that isn't at least partially influenced by either of them. Of course, that doesn't mean he can't have input in the build or whatever. How much each person contributes is very difficult to trace. oov basically made Fantasy from nothing (taking oov's interview from 8 months before the Incruit final when fantasy was a nobody) but at the same time it doesn't mean that Fantasy doesn't have his own will. I would think it's more like, oov creates build, oov shows to Fantasy, they discuss and refine, Fantasy chooses what to do. For something like the Fantasy build, it's just so good (and clearly oov's idea) that there's no way Fantasy would refuse to use it. And power91 you're completely wrong about it and so was Savior (even funnier that MJY lost to it vs some nobody Terran). It singlehandedly revolutionized the matchup and it is a genius build and completely different from anything on Plasma.
But that doesn't mean Fantasy is being controlled. oov is more geared towards mech builds atm yet Fantasy is going with bio fairly often; that imo definitely shows some free will involved. Boxer is probably not fully focused on creativity yet given that he stated himself that he's working on basics first.
Basically all that can be said with certainty is: iloveoov created the 'fantasy build.'
With some logic behind it, one can infer that mech TvZ builds are going to be mostly from oov's hand (given his interviews and play that shows his own tendency and thoughts towards mech now), while bio ones are totally up in the air. The proxy factory on Neo Harmony shows a lot of resemblence to Boxer's own proxy strats, while the two factory build on Medusa is just a new innovation that cannot be traced at all. In game 5 of the Incruit finals his 9 hidden expansion is clearly an idea taught by oov (his signature move).The ghost strategy is definitely Boxer-esque and it would make a lot of sense if the inspiration came from him. Fantasy isn't using oov's build that he showcased in any of his debut games (vZ or vP), so I think Fantasy is still going down his own path while he may take their ideas at various points.
So conclusion is basically it's a mix of both. Fantasy definitely has his own choices and likely ideas but he's also getting a lot of inspiration and ideas from those two (well mostly oov). Some he chooses to use some he doesn't. That's about it.
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Hi ver!
It's really interesting to see features of both Boxer and oov (the best Terrans ever (along with nada ofc)) merge into a single, modern player. Both oov and boxer were very smart players, as stated, and to see their somewhat opposed styles and ideas merge together is truly something to behold
I really wish for Fantasy to evolve and become a dominant player, encasing what I hope will become his own unique and completely mind blowing style
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the DS build that fantasy did against stork definitely came from oov, he showed it when he almost all-killed in that one WL match, i forget which one. but either way, making these build orders is something that oov always wanted to do as a coach. he said he jus wanted to make BO's and give em to the players n stuff.
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I believe Oov has a very strong influence on Fantasy's SC mind, as they probably talk strategy on a daily basis. It's hard not to be influenced when you see Oov every day. I think ultimately, it's up to Fantasy to decide to do a certain strategy. I don't think Oov would force something on Fantasy. It's very awkward playing outside of your own comfort zone. So while I think Fantasy is absorbing a lot from Oov and probably as a result is starting to think in a very similar way, I think that ultimately the builds and strategies are his
And I agree with a lot that's been said in the opening post. I too find myself falling in love with Fantasy's play. Even his more standard games have been very interesting to watch, with his dropship plays and 2 facs and all that fun stuff.
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EPT
