• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 15:09
CET 21:09
KST 05:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? Liquibets sc2 season 30
Tourneys
SC2 iNu's Battles #22 SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Starcraft 2 Advance [G] How to playtest arcade maps [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery Rollback Netcode in Brood War [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos BW General Discussion Cwal.gg not working
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Dating: How's your luck? Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Playlenda
Playlendapro
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11993 users

ICCup report 2

Blogs > Dromar
Post a Reply
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
July 06 2008 06:32 GMT
#1
Well, I played some, got busy and stopped playing for a couple weeks, then played a bit more, and here's where I am now. I'm at 1490, and I've played a few 2v2s, which always are either really fun or really shitty, depending on whether I win or lose, and my 2v2 rating is now 1130 after 4 games.

A quick 2v2 recap:

So apparently everybody loves to go PP in 2v2s. Of my 4 games, 3 were PP, and one was ZR -> ZZ. Against the ZZ team, it was just a double-team zerg rush win. The PP game I lost was a double 2-gate doubleteam into me, plus I had some 40 APM noob as my ally. Those games sucked (maybe cuz I lost, maybe cuz they were over in 5 minutes).
The other two games were pretty fun. One was on Python, ZP vs PP. I had seen 2v2 PP strats on Python such as one player going cannons to defend both ramps, then secure both players expos, while the other player went hardcore zeals; seems like a pretty good strat to me. When my ovie scouted the close position opponent going forge first, I assumed that's what was happening. Nope. Both players went for a hidden in-base cannon rush. My ally rolled his rush over with a standard 2-gate, and I just stopped the cannon rush dead with a well (and timely) placed sunk, until I had a bunch of hydras. It was just a formality from there.
The other game I won was a ZT vs PP on Hannibal. First off, I love Hannibal as a 2v2 map. Second, tanks + lurks + overlord/scourge pretty much owns everything PP can send your way. I took my nat way before anyone else, while pressuring and delaying expos, but later in the game, it seemed like I was too late to take a third, because they were pretty much all taken. So I kinda didn't pull my weight later in the game, but my ally was Korean, so it worked out.
All in all, 2v2 is pretty fun, and it's a nice warm-up for 1v1 games. Guess that wasn't such a quick recap.



1v1 analysis:

Zerg(56 games)
(12)ZvZ: 4- 8 33.3%
(23)ZvP: 7-16 30.4%
(21)ZvT: 6-15 28.6%

since last report:

Zerg(24 games)
( 5)ZvZ: 3- 2 60.0%
(11)ZvP: 4- 7 36.3%
( 8)ZvT: 1- 7 12.5%

ZvZ: My ZvZ has definitely improved, as I've started employing more econo-friendly openings. Assuming Python, something like 12hatch(@main),pool,drone,gas. On 2 player maps, or maps without a nice defensive choke I'll prefer something else. I have been considering throwing in an occasional 4pool, but I'm still debating whether or not it's even worth it. I have to consider the viability/timing of a 4pool + sunk rush, since if I'm going to cheese I'd prefer to have an offensive sunk involved (way cooler and IMO a stronger punch, and thus better chance of working, since 4pool doesn't really have a followup).

ZvP: My ZvP has improved as well, though I still have quite a ways to go. I have been getting 2gated frequently enough that it's become a concern, and I've responded by going 12pool, because, as much as I hate it, I can't deal with a good (or even okay) 2gate when I 12hatch. This is somewhat painful economically, but I've had pretty good results so far, namely because:
1. since I'm going with a "safer" build, I just skip drone scouting, which helps a tiny bit I guess, and
2. for some reason, when the protoss scouts my 12pool, they build cannons first anyway. I'm guessing they confuse it with overpool (or just think pool before hatch = cannons first) but it's a nice mistake I can capitalize on against my current opposition.

ZvT: My ZvT, unlike the other matches, has gotten a lot shittier. And it's because my muta harass has been ineffective. It seems like they've got turrets up way before my mutas get there, and there's just too many turrets to do anything. I need to back off and just retain map control in those situations, but so far I haven't been. On top of that, my muta micro has been way off lately. I'm playing on iCCup, but it's been seeming like I've been playing on bnet as far as muta micro goes, resulting in me getting into situations I can't handle, and getting my mutas killed. The other problem, which is probably somewhat related, is that I'm having difficulty keeping my 3rd since my lurkers don't come in time to stop his mnm force from getting in. So, I definitely could play better, specifically areas revolving around the muta portion of ZvT, but I have yet to. It just seems like the terrans are TOO prepared for my mutas. And they haven't been late either. So I'm considering going lurkers instead until I can clear my bad muta habits from my mind.
This is a definite 180 from ICCup report 1, where I said "ZvT is my best matchup, definitely. Going into a game, I feel most comfortable in ZvT." I guess I still feel reasonably comfortable going into a ZvT, though a bit less so now, and way less so when my mutas get raped, and then I lose my 3rd 20 seconds later.

Questions:

ZvZ:
1. Which build would you rather open against 12hatch@main: 4pool or 9pool? How about against 12pool? Assume python if you just want to give a quick answer, or elaborate based on map qualities if you wanna give a more detailed answer.

ZvP:
1.Um... I think I just need to practice and get stronger all around in this matchup before any more QnA will help me. I guess... there's no good reason for protoss to get cannons before nexus when I 12pool right? Is there anything for me to exploit if I go 12pool and they get nexus first? I assumed not.

ZvT:
1. When playing standard sAviOr style 3hatch muta, when do you commonly add evos? Just 1, or 2? If only 1, when do you add a second?
2. I've been trying out dual evos, both right after my lurker up starts, which is right after I start morphing my mutas. I then get carapace (of course), and range attack, rather than melee. My thinking is that, when skirmishes ensue with my lurkerling army, the +1 range will make my lurkers more effective, for longer (since marines will need +3 armor to before they can avoid 2hit death from lurkers). After I get +1 range, I then start on melee ups as normal, while continuing carapace. Unfortunatly, my games haven't gotten that far due to the above-mentioned muta troubles I've been having. So what do you think of this? Good idea? Bad?
3. What's the best counter to straight up mass goliath (plus the occasional siege tank, I guess)? I assumed mass hydra, but I lost anyway, but that may just be because he was a better player.

General:
1. When do you drone scout in each matchup, and why? I used to scout immediately with my 9th drone, but I would either find no useful info (ex. partially built rax, could be any number of followups), or I'll find good info, but too late for any changes in my build open to be worth it (ex. I see 2gate, but my 12hatch is already down, and it's not worth it to cancel now). Seemed the only info I got was their position and whether or not they were cheesing (if their base was empty), or occasionally ZvP, I could scout in time to go 3hatch before pool against an FE. But usually even a 9 scout wasn't quick enough for that. I've now given up drone scouting completely, since I either get no good info, or it's too late to act on it. So, what do you do to scout, when, and why?


As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome.

*****
iakNab
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
131 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-06 06:57:45
July 06 2008 06:54 GMT
#2
in zvz keep playing 12 hatch main till u learn the mechanics of the matchup. Then start doing 12 pool, get a good feel of it and figure out the differences. This will keep u busy for good few months.
zvt dont need to go dual evo unless ure doing hydralurk or some sort of mid game mass unit play. If u playing "savior style" which i dont think u quite understand, u might wanna rush hive with maximum 1 evo. But in your case i suggest throwing 1 evo down with lurk tech, expoing twice and then throwing another evo down. Then hive. This will give u a good understanding of zerg mechanics at your level of play. And dont waste your muta on nothing, rather keep it alive if u dont know exactly how to pick off marines, the money he spends on turrets will be sufficient enough for u to transfer lurkling/hydralurk and expo.
Scouting with z is a weird thing. If u send yr drone after u expo, u might get few extra seconds with your first ling pop. Thats important when u defend vs bunker or proxy gate gayness. So always consider this. Id advice u to send scout with the expoing drone, this way u can dance around with blocking scv/probe when u have to.
aja ja
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 06 2008 07:47 GMT
#3

ZvP: My ZvP has improved as well, though I still have quite a ways to go. I have been getting 2gated frequently enough that it's become a concern, and I've responded by going 12pool, because, as much as I hate it, I can't deal with a good (or even okay) 2gate when I 12hatch. This is somewhat painful.


I definitely agree with this, as they always bring a few probes with and I end up with two hatches, more gas than I need, and no idea what to do next, once I've fought off the attack. I usually start heading towards lurker tech while pondering expanding, but I always seem so far behind


ZvZ:
1. Which build would you rather open against 12hatch@main: 4pool or 9pool? How about against 12pool? Assume python if you just want to give a quick answer, or elaborate based on map qualities if you wanna give a more detailed answer.


Against 12hatch @ main, if you 4pool and bring a drone to offensive sunken him, I don't see how he can fight it off (unless he's Jaedong). Obviously though, 4pool gets slaughtered by any 9pool build, even against something like 11pool it's sketchy. I'd stick to 9pool, read the ZvZ section here for an excellent 9pool speed walkthrough.

ZvP:
1.Um... I think I just need to practice and get stronger all around in this matchup before any more QnA will help me. I guess... there's no good reason for protoss to get cannons before nexus when I 12pool right? Is there anything for me to exploit if I go 12pool and they get nexus first? I assumed not.

Hmm, 12pool gives you the opportunity to ling up and deny scouts much earlier than 12hatch does, you could go ahead and follow up with some sort of hydra timing wave for a quick win, I believe this is even mentioned in Superiorwolf's guide.
ZvT:
1. When playing standard sAviOr style 3hatch muta, when do you commonly add evos? Just 1, or 2? If only 1, when do you add a second?

Commonly, you add the first evolution chamber as you begin/directly after your lurker tech, second evolution chamber around the time you get hive tech (unless your economy can support it earlier, or in some other cases, ie. playing a hydralurk focused style, or playing mutalisk into ultra, skipping lurker, and planning for a powerful ultraling switch; both of these cases, you could, and probably should, dual evo)

2. I've been trying out dual evos, both right after my lurker up starts, which is right after I start morphing my mutas. I then get carapace (of course), and range attack, rather than melee. My thinking is that, when skirmishes ensue with my lurkerling army, the +1 range will make my lurkers more effective, for longer (since marines will need +3 armor to before they can avoid 2hit death from lurkers). After I get +1 range, I then start on melee ups as normal, while continuing carapace. Unfortunatly, my games haven't gotten that far due to the above-mentioned muta troubles I've been having. So what do you think of this? Good idea? Bad?

I've never tried this, but I think I'll experiment with it One of my friends likes to make his first evolution chamber right after his lair starts and get an insanely early carapace upgrade, then he adds another chamber and upgrades range + carapace again attack, followed by standard melee/carapace upgrades. He has no problem shredding large marine/medic armies with his leveled up lurkers, it seems like a good idea

3. What's the best counter to straight up mass goliath (plus the occasional siege tank, I guess)? I assumed mass hydra, but I lost anyway, but that may just be because he was a better player.

Against mech (generally taken to be goliaths and siege tanks), I like to focus on maintaining a hydramutaling army, while expanding more than I generally would. I have a large focus on upgrades in the matchup as well; after scouting mech, I throw down two evolution chambers, start melee and carapace upgrades, expand, throw down a third evo, and expand again, while upgrading mutalisk carapace. (in all honesty, I'm not too sure of the order I do these in, I just know I do them all :p ). It does seem a bit risky/cocky, but you have to consider that it takes a mech ball around 10 minutes before it's capable of killing anything. If, of course, you scout them moving out earlier, you'll need to adapt your unit/tech timings accordingly.

Generally, you judge your ratio of mutalisks/hydralisks depending on his goliath/tank ratio; more goliaths, add hydras, more tanks, add mutas, while having large quantities of lings regardless. Against pure goliaths, hydralisks will work, assuming you have a proper flank and good upgrades; hydraling are also preferable, as well as mutaling. It mostly depends on your army positioning and numbers: against mech, you need to throw lots of shit at him.

In short, against pure goliath, hydraling or mutaling work, just flank like a mothafucka'

General:
1. When do you drone scout in each matchup, and why? I used to scout immediately with my 9th drone, but I would either find no useful info (ex. partially built rax, could be any number of followups), or I'll find good info, but too late for any changes in my build open to be worth it (ex. I see 2gate, but my 12hatch is already down, and it's not worth it to cancel now). Seemed the only info I got was their position and whether or not they were cheesing (if their base was empty), or occasionally ZvP, I could scout in time to go 3hatch before pool against an FE. But usually even a 9 scout wasn't quick enough for that. I've now given up drone scouting completely, since I either get no good info, or it's too late to act on it. So, what do you do to scout, when, and why?


I usually 9drone scout in all matchups except ZvZ; sometimes I do in ZvZ, sometimes I don't, I can't explain why :p

In ZvT, you can gain lots of information by scouting him early; if you get to his base and his barracks is finished/almost done, while you've just laid down your 12hatch/started your subsequent 11pool, you can expect a bunker rush or an scv/marine attack, and might want to consider getting zergling speed before your third hatchery.
Another fun thing to do is to attack his barracks-building scv, and when he sends another one to attack your drone, kill it using the step-back-attack drone micro. Gives you something to do early game :p

In ZvP, you can scout his fucking 9/9 proxy gates in the middle of the fucking map that he thinks are so fucking gosu and make him like fucking Nal_rA or something.+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry, iCCup leaves me with pent-up rage sometimes
Also, like you said, you can adjust your build to a 3hatch before pool against FE.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
July 06 2008 13:39 GMT
#4
Thanx Shallow. Good answers.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
02:00
#69
TaKeTV 429
TKL 426
SteadfastSC401
ZombieGrub102
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ByuN 572
TKL 426
SteadfastSC 401
mouzHeroMarine 285
ZombieGrub102
EmSc Tv 25
EnDerr 1
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 364
ProTech46
Barracks 27
910 15
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps2853
byalli597
gobbtv246
jkaem181
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby3653
Trikslyr75
Other Games
FrodaN1294
Liquid`Hasu180
B2W.Neo160
ArmadaUGS139
NeuroSwarm50
UpATreeSC47
Railgan31
Chillindude18
C9.Mang012
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL76
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 25
EmSc2Tv 25
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 46
• Reevou 8
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3668
Other Games
• imaqtpie1159
• Shiphtur672
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 51m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
13h 51m
WardiTV Invitational
15h 51m
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
OSC
1d 2h
ByuN vs MaxPax
herO vs Krystianer
Percival vs Shameless
LetaleX vs YoungYakov
Nicoract vs Gerald
GgMaChine vs ArT
PiGosaur Cup
1d 4h
INu's Battles
1d 15h
ByuN vs Classic
3D!Clan Event
1d 20h
The PondCast
2 days
KCM Race Survival
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
[ Show More ]
Ultimate Battle
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
IPSL
4 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-06
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
Individual League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.