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I'm posting this here because I don't want my real life friends to know that I'm thinking this because some of them are actually into some religion and will find this offensive. The other reason is that the average IQ on TL.net seems to be on the plus side of the average human so your replies would actually mean a lot more to me than some idiot who can't wrap their heads around this.
I am an atheist.
I don't know exactly when it occurred to me but I guess somewhere around the age of 16. It wasn't that I was religious before that, just that I wasn't much on any particular side. I wasn't against or for religion. I had a few Christian friends here and there and would sometimes go to church with them just to hang around and see how it is but that's about it.
Later on I got older and started seeing things more objectively and started to question a lot of things. On the top of the list is religion. I guess you could say that I'm an asshole that just totally got religion all figured out and think I'm such hot shit because I've been able to look through it and since I won't ever be able to live a blissful, ignorant life, I won't let anyone else have that either. But I think there is a moral factor here. I like to call it the "Blue pill mentality". Those of you scratching your heads now need to go back and watch The Matrix and see what Cypher has to say. To me, religion is just like taking the blue pill. Once you embrace the possibility that everything up till now has not been a consequence of your own actions, I can only imagine the amount of happiness and relief from stress one is able to enjoy. I would also like to add here that any other bullshit like karma, balance of space etc is also false. I actually came up with the theory of karma round the age of 12 and thought I had come up with the most original thing ever. I would go through my whole day making mental notes of all the "good things" I did to people and then all the "good things" I would receive and to my own amazement it seemed to add up. At that age I was too young and too naive to realize the power of the brain and the little psychological tricks it plays on you, of selective perception and all that jazz. Then I grew up and heard that my oh so original theory already existed and was called "Karma" and suddenly I felt like such an idiot for thinking I actually came up with it and then actually believing it.
Anyway, around the age of 16 where I had religion all figured out, I thought that it was up to me to go around and "free" people from religion, to teach people to make their own decisions and look at their lives objectively. To trust themselves and realize change can only come from within, and not from some floating almighty entity that changes everything with a mere thought. I do realize how deliciously tempting it can be at times to give in to this, especially if you have just experienced something of huge significance that you cannot explain, and you search so hard and are in such dire need of an explanation that you will grab on to anything that is given to you. I wanted people to cherish this life they have because it is the only life that they will have. To think that this is only the introduction to something else is such a waste.
Then I realized something.
People do not want to be freed.
My friends started to label me as crazy, aggressive and insulting. I thought to myself "Why?". I did not understand how these people, my friends, who receive the same degree of education as me, who solve the same mathematical problems as me, are not able to look through something as simple as this?
Then I understood. They are far far too deep to withdraw. Forfeiting now would mean giving up everything they have ever known. That everything they have done up till now would have been for nothing. Admitting this would be admitting to themselves they have been played like fools, the victims of the greatest con on earth, and why the hell should they admit defeat when there is no possible way for me to prove them wrong? What evidence do I have that god or whatever does not exist? When I realized that even if deep down they admit that they were wrong they would not openly say it, I simply gave up.
There's a joke that goes:
An archbishop walks up to the Pope and says:
"Help me. I have lost faith. What am I to do?"
The pope answers softly:
"Fake it."
Not that funny if you think about it.
So, enough with the introduction and onto the main body. I came up with this idea about two years ago and ran it by two of my closest friends who both agreed that it was a pretty radical idea but if I wanted to go through with it, I would probably succeed, though, not at my then current age of 17 but maybe a little older, when my words would be taken seriously, like when I'm 30 or something.
The idea was this. Start my own religion. Gather a bunch of followers, the more the better, then after some time hold a big speech declaring that it was all a fraud. The ultimate proof and argument that religion is bullshit. I would probably be able to do it. I know what I have to offer the people.
1) A sense of belonging to a community
2) A sense of safety
3) A God or higher being(s) to look up to for guidance, blessing, protection, good luck etc etc basically feel good shit.
4) A life after death
5) My own set of sins and forgiveness
6) A good bogus history or beginnings story of my religion that would lead to some explanation of everyday events
Everyday events that I could bullshit about
1) You know when you have a dream and then the dream actually happens the next day?
2) When you are experiencing something and it feels like it has happened exactly as before. (I know its called Deja Vu and I know how it works but I could very possibly make people believe it has something to do with my religion)
3) Some karma thing that explains good things and bad things that happen to people.
4) Some religious explanation to why certain items seem to always disappear, like keys, tickets, pens etc.
There are some other things that I could work into my religion and use but I won't go into that much detail but what's important is that if I was totally serious about this I could probably make this work. Then I decided to scrap this because of some possible outcomes, all very undesirable.
1) People are dumbstruck, because taking away something that has become of such significant meaning to people may cause some serious mental damage and maybe cause people to commit suicide or even worse. Plain and simply, taking something away and upholds a whole person is a pretty dangerous thing.
2) The people turn to another religion. Not too bad but not too good either and I am swept under the carpet and quickly forgotten, having achieved nothing.
3) Another person comes out and declares that he is the creator or leader or whatever and then says that I am full of shit, and since everyone is in such a need for this religion not to collapse, immediately go and become his followers. This is probably the shittiest outcome ever.
So here are a few questions that I would just like to toss out there and see what people think.
1) If you are an atheist, do you try to convert your religious friends?
2) Are you successful?
3) Have you always been an atheist?
4) What religion were you previously? (if any)
5) What major event(s) caused you to give up said religion?
6) Are your parents religious?
7) What effect has your parents' religion (or none if they are atheists) had on you?
8) Do you find it difficult to talk to your religious friends?
9) Do they know you are an atheist and/or do you know what religion they are?
10) If in the future, I change my mind and decide to seriously start my own religion, what do you think my chances of success would be, considering the success of such bogus bullshit as Scientology and Fa Lun Gong, to name a few. Seeing as how these have enjoyed such high numbers in followers, I really do not see how I won't be able to deceive the average idiot human with a combination of persuasive and psychological tricks.
 
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Anyone can start their own thing..
All you need is a group of people who are really good at communicating, debating, research, etc..
Like that flying spaghetti guys or Scientology.
If you can speak well and defend your beliefs and ideas, then no one can do shit.
So .. lol "IF" there was only one "true" religion to the only "real God"... and all the followers were idiots and couldn't defend their beliefs or express them in a way where other people could tear them down fast then that religion would have been GG'd.
All you need to do is be smart. Funny eh? Religion relies on intelligence.
You can argue that but have you ever tried to argue against people who are obviously in a cult but they have been brainwashed somehow... but they are so smart, they believe their own shit or w/e. You can't like out argue them...
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United States24698 Posts
I think in order for you to be successful, you would need to maintain belief in the religion for a long period of time (more than one generation) before you could successfully denounce it, and truly get the effect you are aiming for. Either way I don't agree with you doing it.
I also am never sure what people mean by "I'm Atheistic" or "I'm agnostic" since generally the words are assigned different meanings. Do you personally feel that it's highly unlikely there's any sort of God, or are you sure that there isn't one?
I personally am of the belief that it's highly unlikely that there's anything divine. However, I pretty much never try to convince anyone else. You could spend thousands of hours of effort and get nowhere. It's just a decision, influenced by society as a whole, that needs to be made by most people as they grow up. As culture shifts, the results of this decision will shift statistically. If you feel the need to do something, don't create a fake religion, but rather create a pool of information where a belief system for those who don't believe in a God etc is outlined, or do something to that effect. Honestly, many people still actually think that the average agnostic/atheist has no problem with going up to a room full of children and killing them for no reason... that's a far more pressing issue in my mind than whether or not many people live positive lives in light of their belief in religion.
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Answers to some questions at the end:
1) I talk to a few Muslim people I know about their religion, and I always come to the conclusion that they haven't done much critical thinking on the subject. I always choose the tactful route and don't point this out to keep the dialogue peaceful. But I do make it a point to tell them I don't believe any of it.
3) I have never been part of any organised religion, but I am sure I grew up with Christian influences, as when I was younger I prayed a couple of times without any real knowledge of what I was doing. Later on I became somewhat cynical of religion and more specifically of Christianity, thanks to my born again aunt. Now it's not so much distaste of religion that keeps me away from it, but more of a fidelity to rationality.
6 and 7) I believe both of my parents were raised in either Catholic or Christian families, but thank god (no pun intended) they chose not to raise me religiously. However, I was raised with Christian and Catholic morals, just without the god part.
8 and 9) When I speak with religious people I always feel a slight bit of condensation towards them, but I try my best to keep it hidden. I know they are religious for the most part, and they know I am atheist. However, there are a couple of friends that I have who are Christian and don't show much of it. The Muslims stand out I guess, because they are brown, but these two are Asian and until recently, I didn't know that they believed in Creationism O_O. After finding that out, I lost a bit of respect for their intellect, but for a while I have even forgot about it when talking to them, because they never bring it up.
10) I think the deciding factor in whether or not you are successful in creating your own religion would be your passion and the environment you are in. It says by your name that you are Chinese, and I don't know much about the religious situation in China, but I think it would me much easier in a North American country, or possibly even a European one. With the passion bit, you have to believe it (or at least make it look like it) for anyone else to believe it. You will basically have to become an entrepreneur concerning the amount of work that you will need to get it off the ground. Also, if you do succeed in creating it, you should write a book about it so that you can put your whole point of view across (if you actually do get some media attention, you won't get much chance to say your bit, just a couple of sound bits, and the media always has the oppourtunity to misrepresent your case).
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On February 17 2008 07:25 pyrogenetix wrote:
The idea was this. Start my own religion. Gather a bunch of followers, the more the better, then after some time hold a big speech declaring that it was all a fraud. The ultimate proof and argument that religion is bullshit. I would probably be able to do it.
If you earlier said that "the people don't want to be freed" because they don't want to give up everything they believed in and worked for, then what makes you think they'll believe you when you tell them that it was all a fraud? They'll just declare you insane or [insert your equivalent of "possessed by the devil" here], and kill you or remove you as their leader, and continue believing whatever you preached to them. Of course, an outside non-religious observer would see this as a "proof that religion is bullshit", but since they didn't join your religion or any other, they probably don't need such a proof in the first place.
J. Michael Straczynski said that he included religion in babylon 5 not because he liked it, but because it is an unfortunate fact of life that is unlikely to disappear in the future.
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On February 17 2008 07:25 pyrogenetix wrote:
1) A sense of belonging to a community Check.
2) A sense of safety For veterans/good posters: check.
3) A God or higher being(s) to look up to for guidance, blessing, protection, good luck etc etc basically feel good shit. Mani.
4) A life after death Disney.
5) My own set of sins and forgiveness Ten Commandments
6) A good bogus history or beginnings story of my religion that would lead to some explanation of everyday events Hm.. I'll put it on the todo list.
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i recommend the first few chapters of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. You don't have to think rats about christianity, but for the first few chapters, he's very cutting-edge, and starts off very objectively by simply observing the world and human beings. He answers a lot of questions people have in general about the world. highly highly recommended
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When I was young, my parents would go to bible study and they'd always take me along. As a result, I believed in the existence of god. However, this belief was not deep nor firm, but rather, more like a naive child believing in Santa Claus.
Starting from Junior high, though, I stopped believing. I don't really know what it was that drove me to this decision. I don't recall anyone ever telling me that god did not exist, but my family stopped going to bible study so no one was there to tell me that god existed either (this leads me to think it's more natural to not believe in god). I used to tell myself that I abandoned god for science but now I realize that science can no more disprove the existence of god than prove it. Regardless of how it happened, atheism stuck with me.
As for your idea to start your own religion, sorry, but I really don't like it. Now, I don't "support" or "agree with" organized religion in any way. In fact, I consider myself pretty anti-religion. I really hate it when some Jehovah's Witness people knock on my door and I am appalled when I see people on the bus trying to preach to elementary school students. However, I do feel that people have the right to believe what they want. We have to consider the fact that atheism is a belief and is no more scientifically valid than any religion.
As an atheist, I take pride in the fact that I never tell anyone their beliefs are wrong (unless they're willing to debate with me) and I feel that's the biggest thing atheists have to be proud of: We don't need to enforce our beliefs upon others. From what you've written, I'm guessing you feel far more strongly against religion than I do. Still, I think it's overboard to try to convince others that their beliefs are bogus through an elaborate plot. The reality is, it's almost impossible to convert an entrenched Christian to atheism - he must make the decision himself.
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On February 17 2008 08:00 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2008 07:25 pyrogenetix wrote:
1) A sense of belonging to a community Check. For veterans/good posters: check. Show nested quote +3) A God or higher being(s) to look up to for guidance, blessing, protection, good luck etc etc basically feel good shit. Mani. Disney. Ten Commandments Show nested quote +6) A good bogus history or beginnings story of my religion that would lead to some explanation of everyday events Hm.. I'll put it on the todo list.
In the beginning, Blizzard created Starcraft!
Now Starcraft was glitchy and imbalanced, the fog of war was over the surface of the battlefield, but the Spirit of Blizzard was hovering over the waters.
And Blizzard said, "Let there be Brood Wars!," and there was Brood Wars...
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Then, from the primordial soup of South Korea, progaming evolved.
DOH, that's science, not religion >.<
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On February 17 2008 08:00 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2008 07:25 pyrogenetix wrote:
1) A sense of belonging to a community Check. For veterans/good posters: check. Show nested quote +3) A God or higher being(s) to look up to for guidance, blessing, protection, good luck etc etc basically feel good shit. Mani. 4) A life after death Disney.Ten Commandments Show nested quote +6) A good bogus history or beginnings story of my religion that would lead to some explanation of everyday events Hm.. I'll put it on the todo list.
That's funny as hell...
Anyways, it would be hard to start a religion in this day and age because people are less superstitious and gullible... Oh wait a minute, my bad...
On a serious note, if you're smart enough, and get smart people as your advisers and helpers you could probably form a pretty solid religion. But sadly, I doubt you'd be alive to see it flourish. You'd just be planting the seed really. You would barely see it grow.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
1) If you are an atheist, do you try to convert your religious friends?
no, never
2) Are you successful?
n/a
3) Have you always been an atheist?
no
4) What religion were you previously? (if any)
not any specific one
5) What major event(s) caused you to give up said religion?
nothing really
6) Are your parents religious?
a bit
7) What effect has your parents' religion (or none if they are atheists) had on you?
none
8) Do you find it difficult to talk to your religious friends?
no. i have very low tolerance for people who try to convince those of the other 'side' that they are 'wrong,' and people who know me are aware to just let it go
9) Do they know you are an atheist and/or do you know what religion they are?
yes
10) If in the future, I change my mind and decide to seriously start my own religion, what do you think my chances of success would be, considering the success of such bogus bullshit as Scientology and Fa Lun Gong, to name a few. Seeing as how these have enjoyed such high numbers in followers, I really do not see how I won't be able to deceive the average idiot human with a combination of persuasive and psychological tricks.
i think it would be overly cruel to carry out this plan. i believe that it is in human nature to want to have faith in something with all your heart, and the fault is not with each individual inside a religion. for me, it's plain wrong to turn on them to make a point.
of course, this opens up the argument of 'think about the benefits many others will enjoy!' for people against religion, that's the entire point and addressing it is immensely difficult - even though the influence of religion may be really annoying at times for many (myself included), thinking up an sensitive and appropriate measure to deal with it seems like an impossible scenario.
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if you go through with your plan, you will probably get shot
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Belgium6771 Posts
I dont believe the bible to be factual evidence. I dont believe an elephant with 6 arms exists. I dont believe Mozes split the sea. Etc.
But I cannot explain how and why we exist, so I do not deny the existence of a higher force nor do I really accept it. I guess that makes me an agnost.
In the end, all that matters is free will. If a person chooses to believe in a God let them be.
All the brainwashing and stuff is disgusting though, I agree on that.
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
I read the original post, but no one's replies.
Why waste your time? Why do some atheists feel a need to convert others from their religions? You want to dedicate your youth to building up a religion, only to destroy it and be labeled as a fraud for the rest of your professional life? And doing all that just to try and show religious people how easily fooled people can be? Sorry, it won't work that way. The most it will do to affect other religions is make them feel like the superior religion that has lasted longer then all these other inferior ones.
Take your own advice, live your life. Face it, religion is here to stay, trying to convert religious people is, and always will be, a losing battle.
You will accomplish nothing besides mind fucking some vulnerable, gullible people.
Answers to your questions:
+ Show Spoiler +
1) No, why should I care? If they are truly religious and just use their religion as a way to improve their life, we will never have problems. If they are the fake, preachy type religious, I wouldn't be their friends in the first place; so it wouldn't matter.
2) I'm going to college and will have a Bachelors degree when I'm done, that's really the only level of success I could tell you right now.
3) In a sense, I believe I have always been atheist. When I was a child I was a "Christian", but I don't really count that as my choice. I was raised to think that Christians were the only people in the world, I went to Church and to a Christian school, I wasn't aware of the fact Christan was a "Religion", I thought it was just life.
4) Christian, as stated above.
5) Nothing major, I just got old enough to think for myself.
6) Yes, depressingly so.
7) I was forced to go to Church, and youth group all my childhood. Also, I was forced to go to Christian school, which has been the single worst thing in my life up until now.
8) No, as long as they keep their religious beliefs to themselves.
9) They know I'm atheist, most of them are Christian, and one of them is Muslim.
10) Depends on what you think success means. Yes, you could probably round up a religion of thousands if you dedicated your life to it. However, that would be a waste of your life, and would in my eyes be unsuccessful.
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I think for many of us atheists and agnostics, the desire to "free" everyone from their "stupid" religions is a phase to grow out of. The belief that we know best and have the answers is pure arrogance. We may not be able to see things the way religious people do, but that doesn't mean we are right and they are wrong, it just means we see and think differently than they do. Best to be compassionate and respectful, yet honest and straight forward when the situation calls for it.
I have converted people to Christianity, when I was a young Christian. I've talked people into atheism as an atheist.
Today I leave people alone to believe what they like. I never get into religious debates with people, despite atheism or religion coming up in conversation. Even though I do not hide my own feelings, I am always respectful, and I think that keeps people from feeling threatened or pushed on.
The idea of starting a religion just to yank the rug out from people later on is offensive at best. It is cynical and arrogant. The best thing you can do is set a great example with your own life, and let people think, or not think, for themselves.
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If you ever start one, count me in 
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learn from ron l hubbard.
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basically a religion is a community set up to provide people benefits, given that they will contribute when they are able to. You can't convert people to atheist without providing sufficient benefits.
If you wanna start a religion think about those benefits and contributions, fit them into 1 page and a book. For atheist, I think Choice Theory would be a good one.
I don't know about Scientology, but Falungong teaching's garbage except for the qi gong excercises, those are real deal, stolen from Shaolin's martial art.
I am atheist/ agnostic, I don't care about God's existence.
We need to start TeamLiquidism :D  
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
SonuvBob lol.. that's a keeper lol
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EPT
