• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 12:16
CET 18:16
KST 02:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)
Tourneys
StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 1 - Saturday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread The 2048 Game Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1493 users

Game Design in DotA 2: Icefrog’s Battle with Posit

Blogs > Comeh
Post a Reply
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-11 06:01:13
January 10 2018 22:18 GMT
#1
Game Design in DotA 2: Icefrog’s Battle with Positive and Negative Feedback Loops


[image loading]

Good god I’m lazy


This blogpost is an extrapolation of the idea’s behind Game Maker’s Toolkit(GMT) on Feedback Loops. You should watch it because GMT/Mark Brown is wonderful and I apply some of the ideas within DotA 2, albeit loosely. I get kind of lazy on the particulars to be honest, but probably because no one will read it.



DotA2 is an interesting specimen to examine game design and balance, but interestingly enough we see a rather small amount of actual meaty analysis on it; likely this is because DotA 2 is such a ridiculously hard to examine game and is insanely complicated. To look too deeply into the game is to stare into the void, and at the expense of having it chrono us back, I thought it might be interesting to look at some more general concepts behind it.
DotA 2 has long been considered a game with fantastic balance, often being put into the hall of greats alongside Starcraft: Brood War. Over-glorifying this ignores Icefrog’s long term battle to balance games from the winning team getting out of control too quickly, or allowing teams that are behind from recovering too easily. Every patch, he looks to find the sweet spot between these two mechanics, allowing for a reward for bringing yourself to a winning position and for punishing for becoming overconfident.

I wanted to look at what Mark Brown (GMT) refers to as “Positive and Negative Feedback Loops”. In DotA 2, these can be filtered into several different concepts that have become popular in our dialogue over the last few years. These ideas come in names such as: Snowballing, Comeback Mechanics, Momentum, Map Control, and others. Each of these concepts look to either accelerate the team or hero that is ahead, or look to bring that advantage back the more they are ahead.
A “Positive Feedback Loops” is pretty easy to explain – a player that is ahead is given advantages to become even more ahead. GMT gives the example of Call of Duty’s Killstreaks Bonuses – getting enough kills will allow you to get bonus airstrikes, which may allow you to get access to helicopter attacks, which will get more kills to get to the next stage, and so on. Simply put, the kills start to snowball once you accrue enough.

Experienced DotA 2 players should recognize this concept immediately. DotA 2 as a whole is built with the underlying core of Positive Feedback Loops – a player that kills another hero receives gold and experience, which makes them stronger and leads to the easier ability to kill more players, where they will grow stronger and earn enough gold to buy powerful items, which allows you to be even stronger, and so on. Not only that, but kills often lead into destroying towers, limiting map control to the other player (making it harder for them to farm safely), opening the map for killing more neutral camps and creeps, and allowing a stranglehold on the enemy. Teams with map control also get easier access to Roshan and the many bounties he provides. The fundamentals of how DotA 2 inherently functions lead to snowballing and momentum – to change these ideas changes how the game is played dramatically.

Its easy to go back to Pre-The International 2 Na’Vi and remember them pushing down bases to weaker teams by 10 to 15 mins, or The International 4’s uneventful finals where games were quickly decided by the 10 minutes mark, with GG’s being called by 20 minutes. Arguably now, we are seeing games be decided very quickly, as Positive Feedback Loops, or perhaps the lack of enough Negative Feedback Loops hinder the possibility for teams to comeback easily (though, the recent Captains Draft Finals may have something to say about that).

[image loading]
Remember when this networth distribution meant the game was over?
(source) youtube I guess XD

Negative Feedback loops provides the counter-point to Positive Feedback Loops in DotA 2. GMT defines them as an advantage being given to a player that is losing or a disadvantage given to a player that is winning that attempts to prevent the lead from becoming out of control. DotA 2 has had this mechanic within it to different degrees. Within the game naturally different concepts and items allow players to come back. Scaling bounties for killing heroes on a killing streak has always provided greater gold returns, and killing heroes of higher level give more experience than lower levels, which helps a player behind get back in the game a little easier if they are able to kill a cocky player out of position. Defending objectives that are being pushed usually offers an advantage – particularly high ground positions (notably the main base) where the defending team will have a bonus from being hit and have more vision over the defending position.

Over time, Icefrog has looked to experiment with Negative Feedback Loops – we’ve seen him give a “comeback mechanic” where the team that is behind gets extra gold based on how far behind his team is, or how poor (or rich) the heroes that get the kills in relation to the heroes that die. This helps smooth out the curve from snowballing, though it has been done too dramatically in the past (most notably after The International 4 in version 6.82, which was slowly walked back after numerous patches). Icefrog has also changed some mechanics, such as allowing an extra Glyph of Fortification after Tier 1 towers are destroyed, in hopes of slowing down “Death Ball” pushing teams. He randomized when Rosh respawns, to make it harder to secure for teams that are ahead via map control. He even added Wells in the base to allow defending teams to heal (though, those have been removed from inside the base).

[image loading]
(source: dotabuff.com)

Icefrog’s battle has been to reward teams for playing well but not so much that the lead becomes insurmountable. He wants to counter-balance this by allowing teams that are behind to not fall too far behind and not give up from any small lead. He ideally wants to provide enough incentive for teams to be able to play themselves back into the game from any disadvantage, but not so much that teams that are ahead lose their advantage too easily. To this day, he still is struggling with that balance – recently removing wells from inside the base from preventing from base defense becoming too easy, allowing pushing teams to glyph their pushing creeps from taking damage, among other measures. He also is tuning the game from snowballing still, making early kills less rewarding than previously, and trying to promote late game play (so teams that are too invested into early game play are punished by teams that can hold on) by some more complicated ideas. He’s constantly looking at this balance, fine tuning heroes and mechanics within the game to get the gameplay just right.

So if you think the game is looking a bit instable right now – don’t worry, Icefrog’s looking at it too.

comehDoubleEw,
signing out
[image loading]
today sucked
post-note: sorry, this stuff is probably pretty obvious, but I thought it was kind of interesting to look at some of GMT’s concepts and see how they can apply to the game we love. DotA2 is widely ignored or often discounted in Game Design circles, and I think its cool to take a look at these things occasionally. Something I didn’t mention was how Positive and Negative Feedback Loops affect player mentally and psychology and how they lead to bad manners, feeding, and flaming, but I’m sure you can figure that stuff out.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
bdonballer
Profile Joined October 2014
United States408 Posts
January 10 2018 22:44 GMT
#2
A+ Microsoft paint work
I carry hard!
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
January 11 2018 18:47 GMT
#3
On January 11 2018 07:44 bdonballer wrote:
A+ Microsoft paint work

I trained many years for this level of work.

Truthfully I thought about using a better program and spending time, but that sounds like something I wouldn't do.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
tehh4ck3r
Profile Joined August 2013
Magrathea7057 Posts
January 12 2018 04:59 GMT
#4
On January 12 2018 03:47 Comeh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2018 07:44 bdonballer wrote:
A+ Microsoft paint work

I trained many years for this level of work.

Truthfully I thought about using a better program and spending time, but that sounds like something I wouldn't do.


should have done it in excel

good read, it’s nice to see some people thinking about the more “game-designy” aspects of Dota since that’s so often overlooked in favor of discussions of the specific meta ay hand
AdministratorIn those days, spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-12 18:15:58
January 12 2018 18:14 GMT
#5
On January 12 2018 13:59 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2018 03:47 Comeh wrote:
On January 11 2018 07:44 bdonballer wrote:
A+ Microsoft paint work

I trained many years for this level of work.

Truthfully I thought about using a better program and spending time, but that sounds like something I wouldn't do.


should have done it in excel

good read, it’s nice to see some people thinking about the more “game-designy” aspects of Dota since that’s so often overlooked in favor of discussions of the specific meta ay hand

Agreed. To many people focus on the merits/flaw current meta vs the older meta at the professional. The discussion of what makes average players come to and return to Dota 2 is often sidelined. And what drives people away. There should be more discussion about that, because it is what really keeps Dota going.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3261 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-14 01:30:46
January 14 2018 01:30 GMT
#6
Idk, for me dota was always an interesting example for good game design, but I'm no professional. As a competitive game the negative feedback loop makes sense where it normally might make more sense to just weaken the effects of the positive feedback loop (which IF ofc does as well, see killgold changes).

Does anyone know a good article/video on the motivational psychology of coming back? I mean that's what a negative feedback loop in a positive feedback loop is all about in multiplayer, right?
low gravity, yes-yes!
ironcell
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile1127 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-17 17:35:51
January 17 2018 17:34 GMT
#7
Comeh this may seem obvious, but it isn't. You said it, the game is very complex and the people that can read the big picture are scarce, we are not used to think about Dota 2 in terms of positive or negative feedbacks. Most of the player base are casuals (i include myself in that category) so i think that your post has a special value.
Maybe this kind of content will never be too popular. But is unique.
Keep it up
sammyzsum
Profile Joined November 2023
1 Post
Last Edited: 2023-12-05 13:12:13
November 21 2023 21:22 GMT
#8
Hey, game design discussions are always fascinating, especially when diving into the intricate loops that shape gameplay! Icefrog's work in DotA 2 is legendary in that aspect, balancing positive and negative feedback loops to keep the game engaging.

Speaking of game mechanics, have you ever explored casual games like solitaire cash review? They can be surprisingly well-crafted and a great way to appreciate game design from a different angle. Icefrog's approach to balancing feedback loops is a masterclass!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
17:00
#34
RotterdaM562
TKL 162
IndyStarCraft 55
BRAT_OK 33
SteadfastSC21
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 581
TKL 146
ProTech133
mouzHeroMarine 60
IndyStarCraft 55
UpATreeSC 29
MindelVK 26
DivinesiaTV 25
SteadfastSC 21
JuggernautJason17
BRAT_OK 14
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4598
Rain 2093
Bisu 1425
Light 1027
GuemChi 933
Larva 880
Stork 700
firebathero 522
EffOrt 460
Mini 417
[ Show more ]
Hyuk 310
Sharp 238
ZerO 236
Pusan 219
Snow 214
ggaemo 196
Shuttle 176
actioN 175
Rush 162
Hyun 138
hero 126
BeSt 104
Zeus 51
Movie 46
Shinee 36
JYJ 27
Rock 25
Terrorterran 21
Bale 21
soO 16
Mong 16
910 14
yabsab 9
Dota 2
Gorgc7477
singsing3409
qojqva2643
Dendi598
syndereN319
BananaSlamJamma56
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor228
Other Games
B2W.Neo601
Beastyqt501
mouzStarbuck380
crisheroes346
XaKoH 123
Liquid`VortiX115
oskar94
Mew2King81
KnowMe72
ToD68
Trikslyr63
QueenE47
ZerO(Twitch)31
Dewaltoss27
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HappyZerGling 77
• davetesta3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV428
League of Legends
• TFBlade528
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
16h 44m
WardiTV 2025
18h 44m
Spirit vs YoungYakov
Rogue vs Nice
Scarlett vs Reynor
TBD vs Clem
uThermal vs Shameless
PiGosaur Cup
1d 7h
WardiTV 2025
1d 18h
MaNa vs Gerald
TBD vs MaxPax
ByuN vs TBD
TBD vs ShoWTimE
OSC
1d 21h
YoungYakov vs Mixu
ForJumy vs TBD
Percival vs TBD
Shameless vs TBD
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV 2025
2 days
Cure vs Creator
TBD vs Solar
WardiTV 2025
3 days
OSC
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
[ Show More ]
SC Evo League
4 days
Ladder Legends
5 days
BSL 21
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Ladder Legends
5 days
BSL 21
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.