• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:22
CEST 14:22
KST 21:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)44Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format16[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!5Weekly Cups (July 6 - 12): Protoss strike back12BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) [D] Wireframe Casting Removed Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format Is the larve respawn broken?
Tourneys
Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Summer Cup 2026 GSL CK #5 Race War RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event HomeStory Cup 29
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion BW General Discussion Pros Debate: Zerg Unfairly Nerfed? (ASL S22 map) Etiquete rules in Asl? Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
Escore Tournament - Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport] Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
The Experiences We Want and …
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7953 users

Game Design in DotA 2: Icefrog’s Battle with Posit

Blogs > Comeh
Post a Reply
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-11 06:01:13
January 10 2018 22:18 GMT
#1
Game Design in DotA 2: Icefrog’s Battle with Positive and Negative Feedback Loops


[image loading]

Good god I’m lazy


This blogpost is an extrapolation of the idea’s behind Game Maker’s Toolkit(GMT) on Feedback Loops. You should watch it because GMT/Mark Brown is wonderful and I apply some of the ideas within DotA 2, albeit loosely. I get kind of lazy on the particulars to be honest, but probably because no one will read it.



DotA2 is an interesting specimen to examine game design and balance, but interestingly enough we see a rather small amount of actual meaty analysis on it; likely this is because DotA 2 is such a ridiculously hard to examine game and is insanely complicated. To look too deeply into the game is to stare into the void, and at the expense of having it chrono us back, I thought it might be interesting to look at some more general concepts behind it.
DotA 2 has long been considered a game with fantastic balance, often being put into the hall of greats alongside Starcraft: Brood War. Over-glorifying this ignores Icefrog’s long term battle to balance games from the winning team getting out of control too quickly, or allowing teams that are behind from recovering too easily. Every patch, he looks to find the sweet spot between these two mechanics, allowing for a reward for bringing yourself to a winning position and for punishing for becoming overconfident.

I wanted to look at what Mark Brown (GMT) refers to as “Positive and Negative Feedback Loops”. In DotA 2, these can be filtered into several different concepts that have become popular in our dialogue over the last few years. These ideas come in names such as: Snowballing, Comeback Mechanics, Momentum, Map Control, and others. Each of these concepts look to either accelerate the team or hero that is ahead, or look to bring that advantage back the more they are ahead.
A “Positive Feedback Loops” is pretty easy to explain – a player that is ahead is given advantages to become even more ahead. GMT gives the example of Call of Duty’s Killstreaks Bonuses – getting enough kills will allow you to get bonus airstrikes, which may allow you to get access to helicopter attacks, which will get more kills to get to the next stage, and so on. Simply put, the kills start to snowball once you accrue enough.

Experienced DotA 2 players should recognize this concept immediately. DotA 2 as a whole is built with the underlying core of Positive Feedback Loops – a player that kills another hero receives gold and experience, which makes them stronger and leads to the easier ability to kill more players, where they will grow stronger and earn enough gold to buy powerful items, which allows you to be even stronger, and so on. Not only that, but kills often lead into destroying towers, limiting map control to the other player (making it harder for them to farm safely), opening the map for killing more neutral camps and creeps, and allowing a stranglehold on the enemy. Teams with map control also get easier access to Roshan and the many bounties he provides. The fundamentals of how DotA 2 inherently functions lead to snowballing and momentum – to change these ideas changes how the game is played dramatically.

Its easy to go back to Pre-The International 2 Na’Vi and remember them pushing down bases to weaker teams by 10 to 15 mins, or The International 4’s uneventful finals where games were quickly decided by the 10 minutes mark, with GG’s being called by 20 minutes. Arguably now, we are seeing games be decided very quickly, as Positive Feedback Loops, or perhaps the lack of enough Negative Feedback Loops hinder the possibility for teams to comeback easily (though, the recent Captains Draft Finals may have something to say about that).

[image loading]
Remember when this networth distribution meant the game was over?
(source) youtube I guess XD

Negative Feedback loops provides the counter-point to Positive Feedback Loops in DotA 2. GMT defines them as an advantage being given to a player that is losing or a disadvantage given to a player that is winning that attempts to prevent the lead from becoming out of control. DotA 2 has had this mechanic within it to different degrees. Within the game naturally different concepts and items allow players to come back. Scaling bounties for killing heroes on a killing streak has always provided greater gold returns, and killing heroes of higher level give more experience than lower levels, which helps a player behind get back in the game a little easier if they are able to kill a cocky player out of position. Defending objectives that are being pushed usually offers an advantage – particularly high ground positions (notably the main base) where the defending team will have a bonus from being hit and have more vision over the defending position.

Over time, Icefrog has looked to experiment with Negative Feedback Loops – we’ve seen him give a “comeback mechanic” where the team that is behind gets extra gold based on how far behind his team is, or how poor (or rich) the heroes that get the kills in relation to the heroes that die. This helps smooth out the curve from snowballing, though it has been done too dramatically in the past (most notably after The International 4 in version 6.82, which was slowly walked back after numerous patches). Icefrog has also changed some mechanics, such as allowing an extra Glyph of Fortification after Tier 1 towers are destroyed, in hopes of slowing down “Death Ball” pushing teams. He randomized when Rosh respawns, to make it harder to secure for teams that are ahead via map control. He even added Wells in the base to allow defending teams to heal (though, those have been removed from inside the base).

[image loading]
(source: dotabuff.com)

Icefrog’s battle has been to reward teams for playing well but not so much that the lead becomes insurmountable. He wants to counter-balance this by allowing teams that are behind to not fall too far behind and not give up from any small lead. He ideally wants to provide enough incentive for teams to be able to play themselves back into the game from any disadvantage, but not so much that teams that are ahead lose their advantage too easily. To this day, he still is struggling with that balance – recently removing wells from inside the base from preventing from base defense becoming too easy, allowing pushing teams to glyph their pushing creeps from taking damage, among other measures. He also is tuning the game from snowballing still, making early kills less rewarding than previously, and trying to promote late game play (so teams that are too invested into early game play are punished by teams that can hold on) by some more complicated ideas. He’s constantly looking at this balance, fine tuning heroes and mechanics within the game to get the gameplay just right.

So if you think the game is looking a bit instable right now – don’t worry, Icefrog’s looking at it too.

comehDoubleEw,
signing out
[image loading]
today sucked
post-note: sorry, this stuff is probably pretty obvious, but I thought it was kind of interesting to look at some of GMT’s concepts and see how they can apply to the game we love. DotA2 is widely ignored or often discounted in Game Design circles, and I think its cool to take a look at these things occasionally. Something I didn’t mention was how Positive and Negative Feedback Loops affect player mentally and psychology and how they lead to bad manners, feeding, and flaming, but I’m sure you can figure that stuff out.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
bdonballer
Profile Joined October 2014
United States408 Posts
January 10 2018 22:44 GMT
#2
A+ Microsoft paint work
I carry hard!
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
January 11 2018 18:47 GMT
#3
On January 11 2018 07:44 bdonballer wrote:
A+ Microsoft paint work

I trained many years for this level of work.

Truthfully I thought about using a better program and spending time, but that sounds like something I wouldn't do.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
tehh4ck3r
Profile Joined August 2013
Magrathea7084 Posts
January 12 2018 04:59 GMT
#4
On January 12 2018 03:47 Comeh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2018 07:44 bdonballer wrote:
A+ Microsoft paint work

I trained many years for this level of work.

Truthfully I thought about using a better program and spending time, but that sounds like something I wouldn't do.


should have done it in excel

good read, it’s nice to see some people thinking about the more “game-designy” aspects of Dota since that’s so often overlooked in favor of discussions of the specific meta ay hand
AdministratorIn those days, spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-12 18:15:58
January 12 2018 18:14 GMT
#5
On January 12 2018 13:59 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2018 03:47 Comeh wrote:
On January 11 2018 07:44 bdonballer wrote:
A+ Microsoft paint work

I trained many years for this level of work.

Truthfully I thought about using a better program and spending time, but that sounds like something I wouldn't do.


should have done it in excel

good read, it’s nice to see some people thinking about the more “game-designy” aspects of Dota since that’s so often overlooked in favor of discussions of the specific meta ay hand

Agreed. To many people focus on the merits/flaw current meta vs the older meta at the professional. The discussion of what makes average players come to and return to Dota 2 is often sidelined. And what drives people away. There should be more discussion about that, because it is what really keeps Dota going.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3271 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-14 01:30:46
January 14 2018 01:30 GMT
#6
Idk, for me dota was always an interesting example for good game design, but I'm no professional. As a competitive game the negative feedback loop makes sense where it normally might make more sense to just weaken the effects of the positive feedback loop (which IF ofc does as well, see killgold changes).

Does anyone know a good article/video on the motivational psychology of coming back? I mean that's what a negative feedback loop in a positive feedback loop is all about in multiplayer, right?
low gravity, yes-yes!
ironcell
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile1127 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-17 17:35:51
January 17 2018 17:34 GMT
#7
Comeh this may seem obvious, but it isn't. You said it, the game is very complex and the people that can read the big picture are scarce, we are not used to think about Dota 2 in terms of positive or negative feedbacks. Most of the player base are casuals (i include myself in that category) so i think that your post has a special value.
Maybe this kind of content will never be too popular. But is unique.
Keep it up
sammyzsum
Profile Joined November 2023
1 Post
Last Edited: 2023-12-05 13:12:13
November 21 2023 21:22 GMT
#8
Hey, game design discussions are always fascinating, especially when diving into the intricate loops that shape gameplay! Icefrog's work in DotA 2 is legendary in that aspect, balancing positive and negative feedback loops to keep the game engaging.

Speaking of game mechanics, have you ever explored casual games like solitaire cash review? They can be surprisingly well-crafted and a great way to appreciate game design from a different angle. Icefrog's approach to balancing feedback loops is a masterclass!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
12:00
Summer Cup 2026 - Group A
WardiTV390
LiquipediaDiscussion
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Master Swan Open #105
CranKy Ducklings60
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Ryung 926
Lowko456
Rex 103
BRAT_OK 72
MindelVK 25
RushiSC 17
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 6669
Rain 2610
Shuttle 2045
firebathero 889
Jaedong 852
Horang2 554
Hyuk 473
BeSt 383
Mini 370
Larva 216
[ Show more ]
Rush 194
Stork 181
ZerO 151
Last 151
Hyun 119
hero 115
ggaemo 77
Pusan 73
Sharp 72
Killer 70
Mong 62
Aegong 56
Free 43
JYJ 41
ZergMaN 41
JulyZerg 34
Shine 33
soO 31
sorry 26
Movie 21
Hm[arnc] 21
HiyA 17
Barracks 17
yabsab 16
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
IntoTheRainbow 8
Noble 7
Yoon 3
Dota 2
Gorgc5275
XcaliburYe242
League of Legends
Doublelift2568
Counter-Strike
byalli1173
allub205
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr21
Other Games
gofns17693
singsing1657
B2W.Neo841
RotterdaM195
XaKoH 127
ZerO(Twitch)7
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2299
BasetradeTV150
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• epiclan19
• Adnapsc2 13
• musti20045 10
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP8
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
• Kozan
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 3
• FT.aCt)Sony2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2645
Upcoming Events
Epic.LAN
38m
IPSL
3h 38m
Dragon vs Hawk
RSL Revival
20h 38m
Classic vs Trap
herO vs SHIN
Sparkling Tuna Cup
21h 38m
OSC
1d
IPSL
1d 3h
Bonyth vs Ret
WardiTV Weekly
1d 22h
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W3
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
YSL S3
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E3
Logitech G Connect 2026
StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.