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Brood War, StarCraft 2 & (possibly) competing - Page 2

Blogs > Liquid`Ret
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AManHasNoName
Profile Joined September 2017
United States165 Posts
November 09 2017 04:28 GMT
#21
Thanks for this post, Ret. I totally understand where you're coming from, as the competition is what drives me as well. I'm very sad to see you going back to SC2, because I loved watching you play BW. But, you have good reasons for the return and I'll certainly root for you no matter what!

Watching you at the launch event was a big part of what sparked my desire to really get back into BW and play a ton. Exactly as you described, I wake up every morning at 3AM before I work (at 7AM) So that I can play against Koreans to practice. Thank you for having that drive and inspiring others to have it as well!
“To love the journey is to accept no such end. I have found, through painful experience, that the most important step a person can take is always the next one.”
Hawk2
Profile Joined August 2010
United States229 Posts
November 09 2017 06:43 GMT
#22
From a tournament perspective inviting well-known players with large social media / twitch presence is much safer than having a qualifier where less known players can win. But, I don't get why you didn't get any invites Ret, you've got like 30k twitter followers, clearly have built it up for a long time and have name recognition from both BW and SC2.

Hopefully you'll still play some for fun. Personally I really only enjoyed playing BW or SC2 when I can also compete in tournaments. Playing while rusty isn't fun, but neither is grinding out games with no meaningful competitions to showcase your efforts.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3514 Posts
November 09 2017 08:43 GMT
#23
Nice to hear you still have that competitive spark, I will watch for you in SC2 and if you can't compete with the Koreans there is always casting, which you are quite good at

This is also some quality feedback for Blizzard in both sc2 and sc1.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 09 2017 09:14 GMT
#24
I miss you ret
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Schmorfling
Profile Joined July 2016
6 Posts
November 09 2017 10:27 GMT
#25
Watching you playing Broodwar is awesome. It´s sad that you can´t compete in BW as you wish. But as a StarCraft 2 Zerg player myself, I have to say, that I am hyped seen you play/stream sc2 again.

Best of luck mate
deus_073
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Romania187 Posts
November 09 2017 10:50 GMT
#26
That's the sad reality. Still, I hope more tournaments in BW will make you come back to it. Fingers crossed. GG!
merz
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Sweden2760 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-09 12:47:23
November 09 2017 12:46 GMT
#27
Totally agree on the SC2/BW analysis.

As a competitor at heart I can understand your decision, and I see a lot of resemblance to myself when I read the reasoning in your post.

I will personally stick to BW because I can't even find the time to justify competing in events professionally and I've vowed that that time of my life is over. BW suits me more as a hobby than SC2 because I just find BW a lot more fun than SC2. But I would have probably made a similar decision if I was in your shoes. Because in the end, competition and being able to compete is a big part of what makes something fun.

I wish you all the best Ret, I always respected you as a person and professional gamer and I strongly feel that you still have some untapped potential to reach into.
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
November 09 2017 16:39 GMT
#28
there's only one alternative for a player like you to compete in the fashion you're looking for, Jos. Same one you already employed a decade. Go to Korea and try to qualify for a Starleague, there's not much else. And thats not realistic, so your choice makes a lot of sense to me, tho it's also sad to see you leave us so soon again.
Broodwar for life!
Liquid`Sheth
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States2095 Posts
November 09 2017 19:41 GMT
#29
I've found that if I play something just because it has more tournaments or competitions involved, then I burn out quicker. It seems at least for me that I need to really enjoy something for itself, if I want to compete in it, at the higher levels. Regardless of that, I hope that your choice, whatever it is, works out well! Ret fighting!!!
Team LiquidUnderneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-10 00:42:29
November 10 2017 00:38 GMT
#30
I feel pretty much exactly the same way. There's nothing to work hard for in BW except your own satisfaction, but even that is really frustrating because of how many ladder games are on bad maps and a bad connection. If I play SC2 I can accept 150-200ms latency and play on KR or EU as much as I want, great practice at any time. And if I practice enough to be competitive, there's a tournament to play within a few months guaranteed. But for BW, the practice conditions are poor and the competitive scene is a total unknown.

Also with the new SC2 patch, there will definitely be a lot of strategies coming and going throughout 2018. BW strategy is much more static. The efficient way to improve is to copy Koreans and grind games to improve mechanics. There are no big strategy revelations to be had, rather you must map out every little thing that can happen with massive experience from grinding games. So I think playing SC2 will be more interesting. For a music analogy, playing SC2 is writing your own music to perform while playing BW is training hard to perform difficult classical music. The latter can be a very satisfying task to set yourself to and it's extremely enjoyable when you begin to master things, but it is limited in a way.

GL!

+ Show Spoiler +
For the sticklers, I will admit that BW is still evolving, so it is possible to write your own music, so to speak. But it is happening very slowly, and is only done by the very best players. The chance of someone like ret or me actually innovating something in BW is essentially zero. But in SC2 there'll be lots of tactics and timings and compositions to figure out, accessible to lots of players.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
November 10 2017 11:25 GMT
#31
GL man!
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
OkStyX
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada1199 Posts
November 10 2017 11:45 GMT
#32
On November 09 2017 01:49 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Hey guys,

Figured this would be a good place to give a little update about what I've been doing and thinking lately. I've recently not streamed any brood war, and took a break from the game and I want to explain why. I'd also like to talk about some of the differences between StarCraft 1, and StarCraft 2.

Since being a SC2 progamer

Some of you might know, I had recently started playing brood war again with the release of SC:remastered. Before this, I stopped practicing StarCraft 2 and competing in tournaments in the summer of 2015, after making it to top16 in WCS, and doing decently in IEM cologne by qualifyting for the group stages, but then getting my ass whooped by innovation and lilbow. When Lotv came out and they nerfed injects, and made them stackable, it made me not enjoy playing as much because I had spend a great ammount of time and attention on perfecting my injecting method, including hotkeying every seperate hatchery to be able to track the progress of the inject bar. So it was a decent time to move on, I thought.

Since then I have kept a few jobs, nothing of note, and had decided this year I would get back into school to learn programming and web development. By now I've been doing this for a month or 2, and it's going fairly well so far, especially considering that I hadn't been in school for nearly 10 years, so far it's manageable for me. Anyway, back to this summer, they announced SC:Remastered and I figured what the heck, why not play the game that got all of this started for me back in the day.

Coming back to BW

I remember 7 years ago i randomly messaged you and you gave me a free one game lesson because at the time i didnt m

I think I started playing again around june, or july. At first, it was extremely difficult. I was crazy with customizing hotkeys in StarCraft 2, and going back to BW without customizable hotkeys was so hard, because I had trained my brain and fingers to press keys differently than I was doing when I was playing BW, but the experience was very enjoyable.

I had so much fun just playing games on iccup, and then when I got invited to the launch event practicing actually became meaningfull and it gave me so much satisfaction. Since august I had been streaming quite regularly, up untill about 3 weeks ago, and my progress was steady. My muscle memory and the way my hand was moving around the keyboard really felt like coming home in a way, and just use the keyboard in a way that everything started to make sense again. You could say that somewhere along in the way in sc2 with all the changes I made to my play, I got a little lost. As I played more and more, the way my hands were moving around the keyboard just started to feel better and better. Even my typing got better again, and I just felt more comfortable overall. My mmr would bounce around between 2600-2800 and towards the end I was pretty much able to beat anyone outside of korea (but also lose to quite a few people ).

If anything, dedicating all of my free time (4-5 hours daily) to StarCraft, made me hungry. I felt hungry to improve, compete, strive to be better each day. All of those things are so addictive for me, its like my brain just goes crazy and I wake up and every inch of me being just wants to be better at the game. Difficult to think about anything else. But at the same time, a lot of things made playing difficult. I started to have lag with korean players right around the time I would be home from school which was Korean peak hours (3-7 pm CET). So everytime I would start practicing I would jump in and out of unplayable games for a very long time. Then I also had some experiences in tournaments playing against Dandy (Terran from peru). Games we were playing were high latency on tr8, making it so difficult to control mutalisks. While this player might have been better than me at the time, it made me realise the online competitive environment simply wasn't that good for me. I could practice my ass off, but at best I would have to play ZvZ vs some very capable zergs (eonzerg, trutacz, sziky, notforyou), which would most of the time be 50-50 or very close to it.. And then playing vs terrans with high latency in tournaments, it would make it difficult for me to really enjoy competiting and playing in these tournaments. Combined with the fact that ladder had become unplayable for me unless I played after 8 pm, it was hard to keep enjoying brood war, even though the game itself remains really great.

Around this time also it was announced that Draco, Morrow would be invited to the italian esports open. I was a little bit dissapointed to not be invited to this tournament, since I won the remastered launch event, have a big history in the game, and, was streaming my practice almost everyday and showing steady improvement and ability to compete with the best Europeans from an early stage of picking up the game again. Recently Zotac Cup NA also announced that they would invite Draco from the Europe region to play in their tournament.

Now - I am not the only person who is unable to play tournaments. It's a sad situation where guys who have been practicing the game for years like eonzerg, bonyth, trutacz, sziky, dewalt, etc. are for the most part not rewarded for being the strongest players, as well as having dedicated years to becoming better. So really I don't want to complain too much about that. There are people who are more deserving to play in offline tournaments than me anyway. The sad reality is that these 2 events are the only big ones, that have been announced. All of these factors combined made me take a break from the game.

With the announcement of SC2 becoming free to play, and seeming lack of interest from any of the established circuits such as dreamhack, iem, mlg, etc. as well as Blizzard making zero announcements for remastered tournaments outside of Korea, at this moment in time it feels unlikely that there will be any big BW events of note in 2018 for me to play in. (But hopefully I will be wrong on this).

StarCraft 2 vs BW

However, playing BW really sparked the competitive fire in me once again. So recently I have also started to play a little bit of StarCraft 2 again. Especially watching blizzcon made me feel hyped for the game. I'll be honest, I don't enjoy it as much as I enjoy BW. I strongly feel like there is much less deliberate unit control, micro, and just overall gameplay elements that attribute to 'fun' are found much more in BW than in SC2.

I've heard all these people say that, StarCraft 2 is a strategic game, and BW is a mechanical game. I strongly disagree. I feel StarCraft 2 might be a strategic game, but very little of that strategizing happens while you are actually inside the game. Games are so fast paced, and being on top of scouting everything is nearly impossible that you have to decide on most strategies before the game. You might change your path slightly if you get different tells, but most of your responses are pre-programmed and you try to execute as good as possible. Of course there is strategic variance, you play differently vs different unit compositions, but it's not the same kind of strategy I've experienced in brood war.

In brood war, I feel like players have oceans of time. Once both players have their mechanics on an adequate level, there is so much time to dedicate to thinking about the game, where to place your units, how to setup engagements, which bases to take and which key locations to defend. Alongside the high ground mechanic, defensive positions are much stronger in brood war and this gives the game a much more strategic feeling to me.
In sc2, I feel like I'm racing with tunnel vision to a timing or a unit comp based timing in the game where my chances are highest to win (differentiating slightly depending on what opponent is doing) - but in brood war my eyes are wide open trying to observe and take everything in, then pondering about how to proceed and best trap my enemy into the claws of my lurkers, dark swarm, plague, and 100 zerglings which are impossible to control.

StarCraft 2 does still have lots of the elements that make rts 'fun.' Unit movement is very important in the game, counter attacks, perfect injecting + overwhelming opponents is very enjoyable, and overall playing the game ignites the same kind of competitive fire, wanting to improve, making progress, and wanting to compete. If I could somehow learn to enjoy the useage of spellcasters, I might even say I 'love' that game as well. Of course everything surrounding SC2 right now, the battle.net interface, automated tournaments, ladder systems, updated map pools, constant balance/design patches, it's all really good right now. Perhaps with constant improvements it really can come to a place where it can feel as fun to play as BW for me, or at least close to it.
Also some of the guys playing at blizzcon and in GSL are so skilled and set themselves apart so much from other competitors, that you have to respect their ability. It's something worth trying to immitate, or try and learn to do yourself.

Competing

So I've had to do some thinking about what I want to do. I could keep playing BW, not play anything at all and dedicate all my time to school, or try playing some SC2 again.
Because StarCraft 2 actually has tournaments announced for 2018 (and lots of em!), I think that if I will continue dedicating my free-time to gaming while going to school I will be playing and streaming StarCraft 2. The reality is that which game I find more fun, is less important to me than the possiblity to compete. Because the competitor in me needs that feeling of practice being meaningfull. All of my life I have wanted to compete with people, prove myself, improve. The oppurtunities to compete makes a world of difference for me. To all the people that enjoyed my stream and are wondering what happend, this is pretty much it. I have been torn about what game to focus on and what to do in the future. Since I have not played StarCraft 2 competitively in over 2 years, undoubtfully I am going to be terrible for a while. But most likely my stream will be back at some point, if anything for some casual fun. BW has taught me, that despite being old af, I can still pick up games and learn relatively quickly.

Thank you for reading, guys!

- retjah




i remember back in 2010 when you gave me a free lesson when i randomly messaged you. you wouldn't let me pay you because i worked at subway at the time and you didn't want to take my money. Always remembered that really nice and respectful of 18 year old me! wish you the best :D you have no idea how happy i am that you are coming back i really missed watching you!

<3 great news!!!!
Team Overklocked Gaming! That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested this claim. - G.C. Lichtenberg
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28865 Posts
November 10 2017 13:58 GMT
#33
Best of luck, hope to see you do well in sc2!
Moderator
EndingLife
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States1605 Posts
November 10 2017 17:32 GMT
#34
Good luck in the future with whatever you choose to do, Ret! I was also sad to see others invited to the Italian Esports Event over you, specifically Morrow. Nothing against the guy, but your peak skill was higher, you accomplished more in BW than him, etc etc. I could go on and on. I guess we'll all be waiting for your return to Brood War once again
rel
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Guam3521 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-10 22:21:43
November 10 2017 22:21 GMT
#35
Would be nice if BW was still a viable pro-game. Good luck ret I will miss your BW streaming.
I'll tank push my way into her heart. ☮♥&$!
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands5673 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-11 11:31:34
November 11 2017 11:31 GMT
#36
It sucks to see you leave BW again, but totally understandable why.

Now I find myself yet again without a country man to cheer for in BW.
That said... Yea, it's really a shame FBH didn't even get to chance to spread ur cheeks.

I was a bit surprised you didn't mention your current education along side BW in your last sentence. I wish you give that priority if only for the benefit of having a diploma. In our current society education > skills for 99% of the jobs out there.

You will be missed but never forgotten. Good luck!
FBH #1!
Immaterial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada510 Posts
November 11 2017 16:24 GMT
#37
Very interesting read! These days I generally only watch Brood War streams & tournaments rather than SC2, so personally I will be quite sad to see you not playing much BW anymore. Nonetheless, if you do decide to compete in SC2 I wish you the best of luck and I will definitely check out some of your matches

You have many fans in this community (myself included) who will be really excited to watch you compete regardless of what game you're playing. One way or another I hope 2018 will be the year of Ret ^_^
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
November 11 2017 17:19 GMT
#38
It's too bad none of the big non-korean outlets have given SC:R a try (dreamhack etc), most tournaments have just been online thus far.

really had hope after the remastered launch event we'd see some more major offline SC:R events pop up, but seems like no one has really given it a chance yet.
RhumbaRonny
Profile Joined January 2016
10 Posts
November 11 2017 17:21 GMT
#39
Would love to see you compete again, be that in BW or Sc2.
nurle
Profile Joined August 2009
Norway308 Posts
November 11 2017 19:10 GMT
#40
Man so sad I found this. Was hoping you were just busy with stuff and wasn't streaming for that reason. Now I am just sad! Hope you will come back to remastered real soon. Always super entertaining to watch. Best of luck anyways!
Jaedong fucking beast
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