One of the commonly held beliefs in the BW community is that a brand new player to BW will lose somewhere in the vicinity of 50-100 games before they finally win a game. This thought predated the release of remastered where matchmaking can help out new players and was something that was commonly parroted during the days when ICCup was the main server that was used by foreigners. Personally, I never really bought this. Every individual is different and some pick up games faster than others. This also never took into account what the player's gaming history was and what their level of motivation is. Has the player at least played some other RTS games? What about their ambitions and goals for BW?
Yes, when it comes to BW, its mechanical difficulty is on a whole different level and that's one of the cited reasons. In fact, from all available RTS games out there, few even come close. StarCraft II is probably the only game that might just slightly touch BW's mechanical difficulty. However, even there, it's a really hard comparison to make and doesn't take into account the unit selection limit which was a conscious design choice on the part of BW's creators. As a simple example: it's mid game TvZ and you make a small group of mnm and move out onto the map to be aggressive. You stumble onto his mutalisk flock and get caught up in an engagement. You have to make a decision here. You either go back to macro and risk losing the battle without doing much or stick around and watch your money pile up and your future army, assuming he doesn't counterattack, be smaller than it should be.
Of course, if you are someone who's gotten into the rhythm of macro and have learned to multitask fast enough, you can at least quickly make units and go back to your army to prevent total annihilation (if he commits) and do something. Against an opponent who is on a similar skill level, you both won't macro optimally and you both will make odd decisions at times. Other compounding factors are army control, understanding the various matchups and decision making. These are all just as important and play a large role in any BW game.
You can be the best macro player in the world but if your control is shitty or you keep forgetting to scan and run your mnm into hold lurkers (most painful thing ever ;; ), you will more than likely lose to an "inferior" player. If you don't know the ratio of units, you can have more marines and less medics which means overstimming will be a bigger issue (it always is) or you can go heavy on tanks and less vultures which can be problematic in TvP depending on your opponent's composition. It's all about striking the right balance, making the best decision possible with time constraints and that comes with experience (playing more games, vods, etc...). All of these things in combination are as much of challenge for one newcomer as another.
In other words, while BW can be called a difficult game in a vaccum, due to having to accomplish a lot of different tasks, it's really not that rough of a game from this perspective since you and your opponent will always have a lot of small things that you both need to work on. This is where the fun comes in. Fun in seeing yourself improve constantly. All of the mini reminders that what was once impossible for you years or even just several months ago is now possible. It's extremely easy to improve if you've got the right mindset.
Your macro sucks? Queue up units or make more production structures or learn to be more aware of map pings. You forgot to build pylons/depots/overlords? Make a couple with each cycle or build 3 at once if you can spare it. Your army control needs work? Practice offline using all those micro maps. Multitasking is lacking? Learn to tab back to your army after each production cycle or use the spacebar whenever you get an alert (this can help with macro too). It's mostly a matter of learning how to balance everything and get better at the game while you also have fun with your opponent. This doesn't even factor in one of the amazing parts of the game imo, the mind games. If you find a player that plays as well as you do and play with them over and over, you learn about their tendencies and in turn, you can mind game them. It's a thrill when it works!
To illustrate some of the points above, here are two games that were played recently against an opponent whose skills are quite similar to mine. The first game was played on a map called Neo Electric Circuit. It's essentially a really large macro map with a ton of bases that can be secured and a mineral-only back expo. If you watch the game or parts of it, what you'll see is some piss poor macro at times. Possibly worse than my opponent because let's face it, banking close to 5k on 3 bases is a ton of resources, but what you'll also see by the end is a great victory despite that. It was about the right decisions at the right time and being aggressive just enough to take it:
Fast forward to this second game on another map called Bloody Ridge. The map is considered great for terrans to mech on. Being someone who loves bio, I decided to stick to bio. In comparison to the first game, my macro was on a totally different level this game. I had more production structures and I almost always had a large army to use after failed engagements. I was killing drones and (in my mind) being aggressive enough etc... Thing is, this game was lost despite cleaning out 3 bases worth of drones. Mistakes made in army control and decision making despite "decent" macro all lead to the aforementioned result:
In closing, BW is not easy and that's where the fun is. Once a player frees themselves from this notion and focuses on finding a similarly-skilled opponent, BW becomes much more dynamic, much more fun, much more welcoming and much easier too. For anyone who made it this far and might want to watch some more fpv, here's another 2 fun games that I decided to upload showing just how much different each game can be: + Show Spoiler +
I finally picked up SC:R and played Brood War for the first time. Really great experience and a lot of the things you touched on here really ring true. While I'd argue that mechanics in both Brood War and SC2 and pretty similarly important in their respective games, the mechanical skill cap in BW is so much higher that they feel like two totally unrelated games, almost.
I was Masters on SC2, but on SC:R, I won 1 game at 950 MMR out of a total of 8 games played total. Pretty rough experience, but it's a lot of fun. I always feel, and recognize that I'm not able to do these things that I want to do, that I cannot control my units, click back to my hatcheries, make more units, etc all at once. Hell, I tried a-moving ultralisks and zerglings up a ramp and lost half of them because they got stuck on each other before even attacking anything. And that's one of the great things about Starcraft, not being able to do everything, but deciding how to manage what you can do, and compensate for what you can't.
On September 22 2017 15:16 ninazerg wrote: Bad manners in SC, as ranked by country:
1. Canada 2. United States of America 3. Sweden 4. Republic of Korea 5. Poland
what theres no way thats true. as someone who plays on east canadians are generally the good mannered people americans are the assholes. Of course theres always exceptions.
I think there way more good mannered then europeans who always seem to be elitest because there the best sc player in there country with 1 million people or low key passive aggressive and unfriendly
also I always liked sweds of all the europeans wtf this troll list!
On September 22 2017 15:16 ninazerg wrote: Bad manners in SC, as ranked by country:
1. Canada 2. United States of America 3. Sweden 4. Republic of Korea 5. Poland
what theres no way thats true. as someone who plays on east canadians are generally the good mannered people americans are the assholes. Of course theres always exceptions.
I think there way more good mannered then europeans who always seem to be elitest because there the best sc player in there country with 1 million people or low key passive aggressive and unfriendly
also I always liked sweds of all the europeans wtf this troll list!
This blog is very interesting because you all seem to be so positive.
I stopped playing when I realized how bad I was and that every game was full of negative struggles that weren't compensated by the winning feeling at all. Even worse, I could see myself NOT improving mechanically, despite enjoying learning strategies, reading about it and watching VODs.
Do you even get this feeling of liking something (or someone) only to be shat on by the thing you like? Realizing you're bad and won't ever be good? That all the time you could put in will only make you 'less bad but still worse than anyone else who poured the same amount of hours'?
You all seem to ignore these negative feelings and focus on your opportunities to improve, which amazes me. To me it's like thinking about the game as work to do where you've got to improve. Such mental fortitude left to be poured into a game in your free time (aka fun, relaxing,obligation-less) after an exhausting work day makes me question your sanity, or mine.
On September 22 2017 15:16 ninazerg wrote: Bad manners in SC, as ranked by country:
1. Canada 2. United States of America 3. Sweden 4. Republic of Korea 5. Poland
1. USA USA USA 2. poland 3. korea 4. canada
fixed that for you
you need to shitpost more on discord btw thx
I stopped playing when I realized how bad I was and that every game was full of negative struggles that weren't compensated by the winning feeling at all. Even worse, I could see myself NOT improving mechanically, despite enjoying learning strategies, reading about it and watching VODs.
do you get frustrated by things like not being able to dribble a football? or not being able to kick it into the goal accurately?
On September 23 2017 03:53 TwiggyWan wrote: 10/10 mindgame Jxn
This blog is very interesting because you all seem to be so positive.
I stopped playing when I realized how bad I was and that every game was full of negative struggles that weren't compensated by the winning feeling at all. Even worse, I could see myself NOT improving mechanically, despite enjoying learning strategies, reading about it and watching VODs.
Do you even get this feeling of liking something (or someone) only to be shat on by the thing you like? Realizing you're bad and won't ever be good? That all the time you could put in will only make you 'less bad but still worse than anyone else who poured the same amount of hours'?
You all seem to ignore these negative feelings and focus on your opportunities to improve, which amazes me. To me it's like thinking about the game as work to do where you've got to improve. Such mental fortitude left to be poured into a game in your free time (aka fun, relaxing,obligation-less) after an exhausting work day makes me question your sanity, or mine.
lol yea i know what you mean. i'm 'learning' smash (melee) now and it's just too much. i think brood war was easier to pick up not just because i was younger, but because there were a lot of rivals and shit talkers at school. the burning desire to shit on them completely erased the annoyance of dealing with the interface.
picking up the game as an adult without competitive motivation would be very hard for me too. i'd recommend playing 2v2 or 3v3 with a friend. that format might be the best way to improve your mechanics without hating your life
picking up the game as an adult without competitive motivation would be very hard for me too. i'd recommend playing 2v2 or 3v3 with a friend. that format might be the best way to improve your mechanics without hating your life
I think this is a very important point that many people sometimes hint at in gaming discussions but don't quite understand. It's not that people get worse at gaming as they age, or that their dexterity and response times decrease considerably from their 20s to their 30s (if they did, think about how many jobs would have a huge turnover rate, especially a hundred or two hundred years ago), nor is it that old games are so much more difficult and impenetrable.
It's simply a decrease in the competitive drive that made us want to be good, that made us want to improve so that we could win more and more. To some extent (although we're probably thinking 40s+ now) it might be the resistance to learning or caring to learn new concepts and rulesets, especially if they might be particularly comprehensive or obscure in some way; that supposedly happens to a lot of people as they age.
But yeah in this regard there is little difference between a 35 year old tired office worker for whom gaming is a means of relaxation, and a 15 year old who just wants to make cool castles in Minecraft or something. Neither of them have the competitive drive, both of them will find games like StarCraft quite hard to enjoy, at least in terms of 1v1 ladder play.
That said, a big +1 to your other point about playing team games (or the eternal BGH, although that counts as team games too I guess ). There's no reason for people to limit themselves to 1v1, the vast majority of us never did. Especially if you're struggling to enjoy the game that way.
P.S. I'm with BigFan on this; no idea why your blog has 3 stars average mate it was pretty good. :/
Thanks for all the great comments! 207aicila, only explanation is that it's not good enough or there are haters around
On September 23 2017 03:53 TwiggyWan wrote: 10/10 mindgame Jxn
This blog is very interesting because you all seem to be so positive.
I stopped playing when I realized how bad I was and that every game was full of negative struggles that weren't compensated by the winning feeling at all. Even worse, I could see myself NOT improving mechanically, despite enjoying learning strategies, reading about it and watching VODs.
Do you even get this feeling of liking something (or someone) only to be shat on by the thing you like? Realizing you're bad and won't ever be good? That all the time you could put in will only make you 'less bad but still worse than anyone else who poured the same amount of hours'?
You all seem to ignore these negative feelings and focus on your opportunities to improve, which amazes me. To me it's like thinking about the game as work to do where you've got to improve. Such mental fortitude left to be poured into a game in your free time (aka fun, relaxing,obligation-less) after an exhausting work day makes me question your sanity, or mine.
Yep, all the time. I suck at BW, always have and always will. I used to think that'll it'll be cool to be able to play on fish and get a nice game with an expro but that was just a dream. The closest I got was when I played with IntoTheRainbow on Shieldbattery in a 3v3 BGH game (blogged it). I don't have time to dedicate to become much better nor do I even feel like doing that either. At this point, frankly, it'll feel like a waste of time.
However, I'm more than willing to play a similarly-skilled opponent because for me, that's as good as BW gets. I just enjoy the back and forth tug of war in the game. Over the years, I've had times where I just couldn't touch the game. Tired, no improvement, sick of losing TvP etc... and at that point, my game stalled so I took a break. Eventually, I got the inkling to start playing again and lo and behold, I am always better after a break. I'm the exact definition of a casual gamer despite playing a hardcore game. I could go weeks without playing a single BW game yet my first game back has me macroing much better than when I was playing more. For the record, BW is the only game I play these days.
I'm not young anymore so my competitive drive might've declined (hard to tell tbh) but despite all that, I still enjoy the game greatly and always try to find something positive each game. Of course, some days I'm not satisfied with any of my games but you take the good with the bad. Once you realize and accept that you'll always have improvements to your game and you'll never be an amazing BW player, merely average or close, you'll start to make progress and like the game a lot more. Also, experiment a lot imo! I've lost all my wraiths games so far but with each game, I feel like I'm starting to see how to win with them. That for me keeps the game fresh and seeing how each BW game is so different to the next, I'll never get bored! ^^
On September 23 2017 03:53 TwiggyWan wrote: 10/10 mindgame Jxn
This blog is very interesting because you all seem to be so positive.
I stopped playing when I realized how bad I was and that every game was full of negative struggles that weren't compensated by the winning feeling at all. Even worse, I could see myself NOT improving mechanically, despite enjoying learning strategies, reading about it and watching VODs.
Do you even get this feeling of liking something (or someone) only to be shat on by the thing you like? Realizing you're bad and won't ever be good? That all the time you could put in will only make you 'less bad but still worse than anyone else who poured the same amount of hours'?
You all seem to ignore these negative feelings and focus on your opportunities to improve, which amazes me. To me it's like thinking about the game as work to do where you've got to improve. Such mental fortitude left to be poured into a game in your free time (aka fun, relaxing,obligation-less) after an exhausting work day makes me question your sanity, or mine.
You don't actually need all that much mental fortitude if you aren't too emotionally attached to your progress. I am usually pretty happy to keep struggling away because I don't find the idea that I will never be good particularly disappointing. The fact that the game itself is amazing and storied makes up for that. I do enjoy exerting myself sometimes to I will probably get a little better than I am now but I won't ever be really good and that's fine. I discovered StarCraft through the competitive scene back in the late 2000s so by the time I decided I wanted to play it was already super difficult to even find a game. At this point I'm just glad that I can find a game at all now and I'm grateful to just be a part of it all.
I don't understand why so many people seem to find this stressful. It's not like you're the best at eating, but you do that everyday without worrying about being the best and making it hard to enjoy.
You're probably not the best at pleasuring a girl (or a guy) but when you do it, you do not think about how much some other person can do it better, but try to enjoy yourself right? Imagine SC can be just like that.
A wise (wo)man once said:
On September 22 2017 15:16 ninazerg wrote: SC is like sex.
But yeah in this regard there is little difference between a 35 year old tired office worker for whom gaming is a means of relaxation, and a 15 year old who just wants to make cool castles in Minecraft or something. Neither of them have the competitive drive, both of them will find games like StarCraft quite hard to enjoy, at least in terms of 1v1 ladder play.
Well for me gaming is a means of relaxation/fun for me and I enjoy BW very much, so does the BM Canadian with a macro disability.
I suppose there is the stress of having a clearly defined winner and loser in BW, and losing isn't enjoyable for most people. I think it's a matter of personality and perspective, you can still find joy in a game well fought even though you lose, like BigFan does in 90% of his game against me.
hahaha
@BigFan I just noticed that you don't send your SCVs to mine at an unoccupied mineral block.... eg at 0:49 for the Bloody Ridge game.
Check out 21:09 of the Bloody Ridge game for some tank drifting.
That game could've easily gone one way or another had a few minor control decisions been different, like not leaving 2 tanks on the low ground during the attack on my third.
On September 22 2017 15:16 ninazerg wrote: Bad manners in SC, as ranked by country:
1. Canada 2. United States of America 3. Sweden 4. Republic of Korea 5. Poland
what theres no way thats true. as someone who plays on east canadians are generally the good mannered people americans are the assholes. Of course theres always exceptions.
I think there way more good mannered then europeans who always seem to be elitest because there the best sc player in there country with 1 million people or low key passive aggressive and unfriendly
also I always liked sweds of all the europeans wtf this troll list!
Canadians always get mad because they know this list is true.
On September 23 2017 03:53 TwiggyWan wrote: 10/10 mindgame Jxn
This blog is very interesting because you all seem to be so positive.
I stopped playing when I realized how bad I was and that every game was full of negative struggles that weren't compensated by the winning feeling at all. Even worse, I could see myself NOT improving mechanically, despite enjoying learning strategies, reading about it and watching VODs.
Do you even get this feeling of liking something (or someone) only to be shat on by the thing you like? Realizing you're bad and won't ever be good? That all the time you could put in will only make you 'less bad but still worse than anyone else who poured the same amount of hours'?
You all seem to ignore these negative feelings and focus on your opportunities to improve, which amazes me. To me it's like thinking about the game as work to do where you've got to improve. Such mental fortitude left to be poured into a game in your free time (aka fun, relaxing,obligation-less) after an exhausting work day makes me question your sanity, or mine.
Thats like saying you cannot do sports or weightlifting for fun, since the chances of you ever going to the olympics is non-existent.
I think in any game or sport, it's important to have a group of friends you can play with of similar skill level, or one who is willing to drop themselves to your level to guiding you. I'm sure pro experiences would cite some group of friends or rivalry that they had that kept them motivated. There's no point in training how to dribble a soccer ball better when you aren't gonna play with friends (unless you're just trying to do neat tricks for the camera or something?)
In other words, while BW can be called a difficult game in a vaccum, due to having to accomplish a lot of different tasks, it's really not that rough of a game from this perspective since you and your opponent will always have a lot of small things that you both need to work on. This is where the fun comes in. Fun in seeing yourself improve constantly. All of the mini reminders that what was once impossible for you years or even just several months ago is now possible. It's extremely easy to improve if you've got the right mindset.
It's not about being good in an absolute sense. "No matter how good you are at something, an asian boy is better than you" is a sentence true for everything.
It's more like "I'm trying to play the game this way but I can't keep up with all the shit that's happening and I lose, despite more or less knowing where the game needs to go from there, therefore I'm frustrated".
For me, being good is being able to convert my thoughts into the game. I want to move my units there. I want to cast X spell. I want to drop here while doing something else there.
Losing because you got outsmarted/had no idea what you were doing is okay. But losing continually to mechanical problems when the game is won strategically is very depressing to me.
What i mean by that is when you engineer yourself an advantage that you can't use properly. For example being well positioned in quake with a decent stack but dying to someone with perfect lg aim; or being a 200/200 3/3 terran against a protoss and dying because it's hard to destroy each of the million bases P has.
In such situations, thoughts are very clear : I lost because I suck. How can I not lose? By getting in that exact same situation thousands times more, until I get over that hump. But there are 2 problems :
Problem 1 is that it's very hard to actually feel like you're getting closer. In FPS, either you hit the shot, either you don't. It's difficult to understand that "I'm now hitting this shot 50% of the time, and a week ago this was 40%", or "I held 2 minutes in late game TvP chaos, before I coulld only hold for one minute". At least when you do bodybuilding you can count your reps while doing it and instantly notice that you could do one more.
Problem 2 is that after failing something you'd reallly like to get another shot to try it again. But when you play simple starcraft, you can't know if the same situation will happen the next game, or 10 games after that. Therefore, you know you sucked in situation X, but you can't put yourself back in X at will.
EPT
). There's no reason for people to limit themselves to 1v1, the vast majority of us never did. Especially if you're struggling to enjoy the game that way.
