• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:01
CEST 13:01
KST 20:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview4[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)5Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO4 & Finals Preview5
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League4Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double0Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win1
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double
Tourneys
GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 527 Hell Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 526 Rubber and Glue Mutation # 525 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Pros React To: ASL S21 Finals BW General Discussion Very long shot - StarCraft x A7X video Pros React to: TvT Masterclass in FlaSh vs Light vespene.gg — BW replays in browser
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Dating: How's your luck? European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development streaming software
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Customization Drives Loyalty…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2715 users

Quality of Life ideas for zerg design

Blogs > Grumbels
Post a Reply
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-28 20:29:20
May 28 2015 20:23 GMT
#1
I'm not really expecting any of this to be in the game, but I had various ideas to make zerg ..more complicated, but I think the changes are all quite intuitive and might have healthy gameplay effects. They're mostly based on design concerns with zerg, especially the larva mechanic.

I wasn't sure how to format this, so I'll just start listing the suggestions.

Larva cap increased from three to four and five when upgrading to a Lair and a Hive:
- there is no real gameplay justification here, but I thought it would make sense that bigger buildings could maintain more larva. It's also a slight production boost for teching zerg players, given that it's not always ideal that zerg production is tied up in expansions, but I don't suspect this will have a noticeable effect. The larva generation speed is still the same after all.

Broodling spawn upon death increased from nine to some other number when upgrading to a Lair and a Hive:
- you might not know this: when ordinary zerg buildings die they spawn only six broodlings, but the hatchery will spawn nine of them. The only zerg building where spawning broodlings are significant for balance might be the hatchery, which is why I'm hesitant to change the numbers from 9/9/9 to something like 6/8/10, however increasing it to 9/12/15 seems excessively large. Maybe 8/10/12 is okay? The idea again is to make the Lair and Hive more imposing. The gameplay justification isn't really there, but at least I don't think it would negatively affect the game. You could also argue that killing a Hive is already important enough that you shouldn't mind losing your marines to broodlings that spawn and that this slightly compensates the zerg, but in practice I don't think it will be that noticeable.

Zergling and ultralisk egg models changed:
- I thought that since one egg houses two zerglings it could have a different graphic of a composite of two smaller eggs. The ultralisk could have a larger egg. The main justification here is that visually it looks more intuitive, but this one has significant gameplay effects: you can't scout zerg production very well because seeing eggs in production tells you nothing. However, if you scout a terran you can see any number of barracks with add-ons producing something and this gives you more information. Furthermore, because of inject larva all the eggs tend to hatch at once and it's easy to miss this. If you could tell the difference between zerglings and drones in production at a glance then early game ZvZ might not be as volatile.
The ultralisk egg idea is to help you narrow down choices even more, because it helps you distinguish between things like ultralisks and mutalisks in production, which all require specific preparation.
Another argument is that there is precedent for this, because every zerg morph has its own cocoon model.

Larva will start to slowly die off past seven larva:
- Currently there is a cap of 19 larva that you can build up per hatchery. There was an article that showed that top players stop injecting when reaching the supply cap I guess since they had plenty of larva anyway and they had other priorities. There are also some powerful tech switches you can execute in the late-game because of your larva reserves. If as a terran or protoss you are not using your production then it's wasted, but zerg has the option to store production capability.
I think it would make sense if for zerg to utilize this option they would at least have to be diligent in maintaining injects, because the larva would die unused if you were not either building units or restoring the larva via injects. The number seven is chosen as to not interfere in normal gameplay where you commonly have seven larva max.

Creep tumor sight range reduced from eleven to nine:
- Sight range differs a lot between units. SCV's have only 8 range, marines have 9, thors have 11 and tempests have 12. Creep tumors have 11. I'm not sure why this value is this high, but it gives zerg quite amazing map vision seemingly beyond what you should expect from a free burrowed unit. The creep tumor spawns creep with a radius of ten, which might explain its sight range, but I don't think it's a good justification given the other factors to consider.

Hive requirements changed from Infestation Pit to any single one of the following: Spire, Infestation Pit, Hydralisk Den:
- This is mainly in response to the increasing number of units in the game, where having to build an Infestation Pit to have access to various T3 units and upgrades is restrictive because you're already focusing on, say, mutalisks and lurkers. I thought having a prerequisite that was variable would be a cool innovation so that you could still unlock new tech paths without being forced into some other tech you have no use for. It should be the case that if you want to build infestors you should have to actually commit to infestor tech, not build them as an afterthought because you have the building anyway. This change will also help with giving zerg easier access to T3 upgrades.

Spire changes:
- The spire takes 100 seconds to build, which dates to Brood War where you could save up larva and kill people with quick mutalisk tech. The 100 seconds gives you time to prepare. However, the build time is so long that it stands in contrast with the common 60 seconds build time of similar buildings. If mutalisks had to get an upgrade before being very useful this would allow the spire build time to be normalized. You would have mutalisks more quickly instead of having to wait, and your opponent would have to react to weaker mutalisks earlier which makes for smoother transition into anti-mutalisk defense. Of course the specific upgrade and build time would have to be decided based on testing, but I think it can be changed without affecting the game balance too much.

This is about as far as I can go without suggesting anything radical that will be a redesign of the race, so I'll end here. Please leave comments and suggestions.

*
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32748 Posts
May 28 2015 20:42 GMT
#2
I would love to see Overlord drops get some love in LotV. They added a lot of mobility that didn't feel very forced or gimmicky like Nydus Worms and added a risk-reward to using supply giving units for the opportunity for a massive army movement. They were a staple of BW strategy and added dynamism to how a Zerg could approach an engagement or backstab the production of the opponent.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 28 2015 21:24 GMT
#3
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
May 28 2015 21:29 GMT
#4
On May 29 2015 06:24 opisska wrote:
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?

I don't understand. All of these changes are improvements to zerg design in my view.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 28 2015 21:43 GMT
#5
On May 29 2015 06:29 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2015 06:24 opisska wrote:
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?

I don't understand. All of these changes are improvements to zerg design in my view.


I don't care about "design", that's anyway just a buzzword everybody uses now to sound smart. But the title says "quality of life". From the changes you suggest, most don't change my life as a zerg at all, two (larva dying and creep vision reduction) make it strictly worse (they don't help me in any way), only one makes it significantly better (hive from any building) and one is rather two-sided (spire build time could be somewhat useful in non-mirrors, depending on the nature of the tradeoff, but it can probably make ZvZ more difficult, if fast switch to mutas is easier; a potentially weaker mutas are still strong when all the rest of units on the map are just roaches).

I just don't see how this set of changes has much to do with "improving quality of life" for zerg players.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
May 29 2015 03:37 GMT
#6
On May 29 2015 06:24 opisska wrote:
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?

Grumbels, literally Blizzard
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL
09:30
2026 Season 2: Ro8 Group A
herO vs CureLIVE!
Classic vs Clem
IntoTheiNu 341
Ryung 337
CranKy Ducklings SOOP41
GSL EN (SOOP)0
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Ryung 337
Lowko260
Rex 21
herO (SOOP) 1
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4398
Sea 1094
Jaedong 423
firebathero 347
actioN 196
EffOrt 173
Light 130
Hyun 124
Last 119
Pusan 110
[ Show more ]
Mini 109
ggaemo 90
Rush 58
Liquid`Ret 56
ZerO 50
NaDa 48
HiyA 38
Free 36
Movie 33
soO 32
Hm[arnc] 28
Shinee 28
hero 24
Sacsri 24
ajuk12(nOOB) 21
910 17
JYJ 14
Bale 13
Soulkey 12
Terrorterran 9
Noble 8
Barracks 6
zelot 2
Dota 2
Gorgc4722
XaKoH 362
canceldota42
Dendi10
XcaliburYe0
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1825
shoxiejesuss1067
x6flipin356
byalli354
allub181
Other Games
singsing482
Pyrionflax229
Mew2King132
B2W.Neo72
Happy48
amsayoshi19
ZerO(Twitch)10
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL406
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 10
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 44
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• escodisco863
• iopq 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis2304
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3h 59m
Replay Cast
12h 59m
GSL
22h 29m
Maru vs SHIN
Zoun vs Rogue
WardiTV Spring Champion…
1d
SKillous vs Strange
Lambo vs Strange
Ryung vs Strange
Lambo vs Ryung
Ryung vs SKillous
Lambo vs SKillous
OSC
1d 7h
Replay Cast
1d 12h
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Lambo vs SHIN
Solar vs Rogue
herO vs Clem
Maestros of the Game
2 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
3 days
ZZZero vs WorsT
Julia vs eOnzErG
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
IPSL
4 days
Dragon vs Artosis
dxtr13 vs Hawk
BSL
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
5 days
Maestros of the Game
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 21
2026 GSL S1
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

2026 KK StarCraft Pro League
BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
KK 2v2 League Season 1
YSL S3
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: King of Kings
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
Bounty Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.