• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:47
CEST 00:47
KST 07:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL76
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Server Blocker RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone Script to open stream directly using middle click ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Last Minute Live-Report Thread Resource!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 605 users

Quality of Life ideas for zerg design

Blogs > Grumbels
Post a Reply
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-28 20:29:20
May 28 2015 20:23 GMT
#1
I'm not really expecting any of this to be in the game, but I had various ideas to make zerg ..more complicated, but I think the changes are all quite intuitive and might have healthy gameplay effects. They're mostly based on design concerns with zerg, especially the larva mechanic.

I wasn't sure how to format this, so I'll just start listing the suggestions.

Larva cap increased from three to four and five when upgrading to a Lair and a Hive:
- there is no real gameplay justification here, but I thought it would make sense that bigger buildings could maintain more larva. It's also a slight production boost for teching zerg players, given that it's not always ideal that zerg production is tied up in expansions, but I don't suspect this will have a noticeable effect. The larva generation speed is still the same after all.

Broodling spawn upon death increased from nine to some other number when upgrading to a Lair and a Hive:
- you might not know this: when ordinary zerg buildings die they spawn only six broodlings, but the hatchery will spawn nine of them. The only zerg building where spawning broodlings are significant for balance might be the hatchery, which is why I'm hesitant to change the numbers from 9/9/9 to something like 6/8/10, however increasing it to 9/12/15 seems excessively large. Maybe 8/10/12 is okay? The idea again is to make the Lair and Hive more imposing. The gameplay justification isn't really there, but at least I don't think it would negatively affect the game. You could also argue that killing a Hive is already important enough that you shouldn't mind losing your marines to broodlings that spawn and that this slightly compensates the zerg, but in practice I don't think it will be that noticeable.

Zergling and ultralisk egg models changed:
- I thought that since one egg houses two zerglings it could have a different graphic of a composite of two smaller eggs. The ultralisk could have a larger egg. The main justification here is that visually it looks more intuitive, but this one has significant gameplay effects: you can't scout zerg production very well because seeing eggs in production tells you nothing. However, if you scout a terran you can see any number of barracks with add-ons producing something and this gives you more information. Furthermore, because of inject larva all the eggs tend to hatch at once and it's easy to miss this. If you could tell the difference between zerglings and drones in production at a glance then early game ZvZ might not be as volatile.
The ultralisk egg idea is to help you narrow down choices even more, because it helps you distinguish between things like ultralisks and mutalisks in production, which all require specific preparation.
Another argument is that there is precedent for this, because every zerg morph has its own cocoon model.

Larva will start to slowly die off past seven larva:
- Currently there is a cap of 19 larva that you can build up per hatchery. There was an article that showed that top players stop injecting when reaching the supply cap I guess since they had plenty of larva anyway and they had other priorities. There are also some powerful tech switches you can execute in the late-game because of your larva reserves. If as a terran or protoss you are not using your production then it's wasted, but zerg has the option to store production capability.
I think it would make sense if for zerg to utilize this option they would at least have to be diligent in maintaining injects, because the larva would die unused if you were not either building units or restoring the larva via injects. The number seven is chosen as to not interfere in normal gameplay where you commonly have seven larva max.

Creep tumor sight range reduced from eleven to nine:
- Sight range differs a lot between units. SCV's have only 8 range, marines have 9, thors have 11 and tempests have 12. Creep tumors have 11. I'm not sure why this value is this high, but it gives zerg quite amazing map vision seemingly beyond what you should expect from a free burrowed unit. The creep tumor spawns creep with a radius of ten, which might explain its sight range, but I don't think it's a good justification given the other factors to consider.

Hive requirements changed from Infestation Pit to any single one of the following: Spire, Infestation Pit, Hydralisk Den:
- This is mainly in response to the increasing number of units in the game, where having to build an Infestation Pit to have access to various T3 units and upgrades is restrictive because you're already focusing on, say, mutalisks and lurkers. I thought having a prerequisite that was variable would be a cool innovation so that you could still unlock new tech paths without being forced into some other tech you have no use for. It should be the case that if you want to build infestors you should have to actually commit to infestor tech, not build them as an afterthought because you have the building anyway. This change will also help with giving zerg easier access to T3 upgrades.

Spire changes:
- The spire takes 100 seconds to build, which dates to Brood War where you could save up larva and kill people with quick mutalisk tech. The 100 seconds gives you time to prepare. However, the build time is so long that it stands in contrast with the common 60 seconds build time of similar buildings. If mutalisks had to get an upgrade before being very useful this would allow the spire build time to be normalized. You would have mutalisks more quickly instead of having to wait, and your opponent would have to react to weaker mutalisks earlier which makes for smoother transition into anti-mutalisk defense. Of course the specific upgrade and build time would have to be decided based on testing, but I think it can be changed without affecting the game balance too much.

This is about as far as I can go without suggesting anything radical that will be a redesign of the race, so I'll end here. Please leave comments and suggestions.

*
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32740 Posts
May 28 2015 20:42 GMT
#2
I would love to see Overlord drops get some love in LotV. They added a lot of mobility that didn't feel very forced or gimmicky like Nydus Worms and added a risk-reward to using supply giving units for the opportunity for a massive army movement. They were a staple of BW strategy and added dynamism to how a Zerg could approach an engagement or backstab the production of the opponent.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 28 2015 21:24 GMT
#3
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
May 28 2015 21:29 GMT
#4
On May 29 2015 06:24 opisska wrote:
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?

I don't understand. All of these changes are improvements to zerg design in my view.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 28 2015 21:43 GMT
#5
On May 29 2015 06:29 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2015 06:24 opisska wrote:
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?

I don't understand. All of these changes are improvements to zerg design in my view.


I don't care about "design", that's anyway just a buzzword everybody uses now to sound smart. But the title says "quality of life". From the changes you suggest, most don't change my life as a zerg at all, two (larva dying and creep vision reduction) make it strictly worse (they don't help me in any way), only one makes it significantly better (hive from any building) and one is rather two-sided (spire build time could be somewhat useful in non-mirrors, depending on the nature of the tradeoff, but it can probably make ZvZ more difficult, if fast switch to mutas is easier; a potentially weaker mutas are still strong when all the rest of units on the map are just roaches).

I just don't see how this set of changes has much to do with "improving quality of life" for zerg players.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
May 29 2015 03:37 GMT
#6
On May 29 2015 06:24 opisska wrote:
So you want to mostly decrease the quality of life of the zerg?

Grumbels, literally Blizzard
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 1
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
ZZZero.O260
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Livibee 164
ProTech54
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 260
NaDa 49
Dota 2
monkeys_forever269
Pyrionflax155
League of Legends
Grubby5057
Dendi1166
Counter-Strike
fl0m1765
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor374
Trikslyr55
Other Games
summit1g8009
ViBE171
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick66474
StarCraft 2
angryscii 37
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta82
• musti20045 42
• tFFMrPink 15
• OhrlRock 1
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22347
League of Legends
• Doublelift4991
• Jankos2191
Other Games
• imaqtpie2172
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
11h 14m
RSL Revival
11h 14m
Classic vs Clem
FEL
16h 14m
Elazer vs Spirit
Gerald vs MaNa
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
19h 14m
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Wardi Open
1d 12h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.