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Dear vs DRG G1 A new-ish look at PvZ [Build]

Blogs > Kommatiazo
Post a Reply
Kommatiazo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States579 Posts
September 25 2013 04:53 GMT
#1
Normally I'd want to put this right into the SC2 Strategy section, but I've never posted a build before so I don't think it'd be up to those standards. Let me know what refinements in format or whatever you'd like to see and maybe this build can end up there one day.

This game... Artosis and Tasteless were stoked and so was I. Dear played so well and that combined with a BO advantage to start out just walked over DRG in this game. I repeat: walked over DRG! DRG. Walked Over. DRG... Oh Dear indeed. DRG didn't look at all phased after the loss, but that may have been his downfall in this group. I don't think he realized how strong Dear was, I certainly didn't.

Taking such a bold and fast 3rd nexus is crazy regardless, but Dear did it on a map with a notoriously hard to take 3rd base with hardly any units at all. And he made it work in dominant fashion. Artosis started playing this style on ladder the other day, I'll go look through his VODs to see if there's a good one of him doing it there, otherwise here's the links to the GOM VODs.

GOMTV.net VOD
Twitch.tv VOD

Note: + Show Spoiler +
This build is fairly passive and this specific game played into that, so the supply numbers used in build orders are able to provide a good timing much farther into the game than normal, so that is why I continued to use that metric well into the 90's of supply. Dear only loses one probe at 43 supply as his second scout is picked off, which is normal enough that I don't adjust supply numbers, so technically if you're doing this build and you lose nothing you'd be +1 supply over Dear at the 4:30 mark on. I have also marked out the time of many important hurdles from the beginning as that's also a good metric and doesn't really ever lose or gain accuracy or importance assuming your build is still on track.


Dear's safety in this game makes the followable build order go WAY WAY longer into the match than your typical build as the tech paths are really well planned and only somewhat reactive and the game in question is really passive for the most part.

The Build: + Show Spoiler +
I'm not sure what to call this one, it has an Oracle opening, fast 3rd timing, Voidray, Blink Stalker use, but not for an all-in or attack timing, then it gets Colossus later on. So I'll post a for fun poll at the end of this blog to see what you guys think about some names I came up with. I just don't think "Oracle into fast third" or "Voidray Blink" quite describe this gem.



<FFE> Nexus First variety
*This isn't just a one tech build, this is a late-game plan, so it's pretty long/detailed. Be prepared to deviate if you don't scout similar tech to what DRG was doing
*Constant Probes the whole time until all 3 bases are saturated
*Chrono's are noted when visible in VODs, but do not account for it all. I'd assume probes for
most of it, 1-2 on most upgrades as well. More play testing will reveal Chrono logic better.

9 Pylon
16 Nexus (Scout) [2:25]
17 Forge
17 Pylon
18 Gateway (1) [3:15]
19 Cannon
20-21 Gas x 2 (1,2) [3:45]
25 Cy Core [4:20]
30 Zealot
35 Stargate @Cy Core 100% [5:20]
35 +1 Gas (3)
40 Sentry (1)
42 WG Tech [5:40]
46 Oracle (Chrono) @ SG 100% [6:20]
48 Sentry (2)
50 +1 Gas (4) [6:40]
54 +1 Attack [7:00]
55 3rd Nexus [7:16] (!!!)
-> Oracle to opponent's 3rd Base
55 Voidray (Chrono)
60 MsC [7:45]
65 +5 Gateways
70 Twilight [8:30]
*See Benchmark*
85 Blink Tech [9:40]
+2 Attack
+2 Gas (5, 6)
96 +2 Gateways (7, 8)
97 Robo [10:29]
-> Move out to pressure 4th/main w/ 3 Voidrays + MsC (don't lose these)
11:50 Robo @100% Obs ->Prism
Robotics Support Bay
+3 Attack
12:50 Charge
13:00 Robo Bay @100% Colossus/Thermal Lance
14:30-15:00 Move out with army, take 4th base
Show colossus tech (Force opponent to Muta or Corruptor)
+ 2 Stargates (2, 3)
Dear also builds 1 phoenix to have a bit of mobile scouting for tech/positioning
Use Warp Prism harass to scout opponent's reaction force (muta or corrupter)
Prioritize Phoenix if Mutas (Also cannons), Voids if Corrupters


If you haven't won yet add Templar Archives ( for archons feedback and storm) to deal with the Hive tech that can hurt you still (Ultra/Infestor/Viper techs), BL's are a non-threat IMO unless you lose your voids or something. But with Blink, Voids, Air and Ground attack upgrades that would be a bad choice for Zerg IMO.

Benchmark: 9:30
  • 3 Bases up
  • 57 Probes (1 dead due to scouting in Dear vs DRG)
  • 2 Voids (+1 building)
  • 1 Oracle
  • 1 MsC
  • 3 Sentries
  • 1 Zealot


Killing Composition: (In the actual engagement, not counting reinforcements)
  • 13 Zealots
  • 17 Stalkers
  • 3 Colossi
  • 6 Voids
  • 2 Sentries
  • MsC
  • Dear does lose all of his Sentries at one point, and remakes only 2 for the main attack. Dear also uses them for Guardian shield over FF's, so he doesn't need all that many. I'm not sure if he would have liked to have FF's in that main battle, he did kind of wipe the floor with DRG anyway


I prefer to keep my Prism and use it to warp in during the battle, or make a new one. Dear doesn't think so or forgot it. Either way his reinforcements have to stream pretty far across the map, so that could've been better.

If I end up posting this in the strat forum I'll go into more detail on what Dear does but as this isn't really a [G] build guide I'll skip most of the really subtle stuff assuming that you either understand the game enough to assume it all or at least took the time to watch the VODs and pick up on what exact units Dear adds and when, etc.

God Dear is such a boss (except for forgetting about his Prism D: ). Even after I had watched this game 3 times I was still blown away by how greedy he was being. He got really lucky in that DRG played an anti-gate expand style and ended up ahead due to it, but then he takes a 3rd off of 1 Zealot, 3 Sentries, an Oracle and 1 gate. So sexy. He did have a good idea of what DRG was doing though, so it's not like ALL of his greed was blind coin flipping or prepared metagaming.

There are two important early Scout timings that Dear uses. Once on the initial scout with the probe that built the Nexus and again at 4:45 to check the third and gas timings + other tech. He gets a bit more scouting with his oracle later on, then moves out for the first time basically once he has a few sentries but doesn't actually cross the map until he has blink and a good stalker count. He gets pushed back by DRG's Hydra/ling force and has to defend until his colossus finishes, (with his +3 attack in almost perfect sync), then it's DRG's turn to retreat. The 3 colossi, 7(!!) Voids + Gateway force that Dear finally pushes out with is SO strong against DRG's Hydra/Corrupter/Ling army. It's important to note that if you plan on using this build in your games that you are aware of the earlier scouting timings and possible alternate decisions you would have to face against a different Zerg than DRG. If you scout an all in with your Oracle/earlier with a probe you'd have to rush your MsC, cannons or more Gates sooner, and later with your Prism harass scouting Corrupter or Muta tech you will have to differ from Dear's style a little bit.

This game is a bit of a special case since Dear was basically able to do whatever he wanted the whole game, including forcing DRG down the tech paths he wanted and crushing it with strong counters, while DRG never tried anything outlandish or non standard. I like that about this build/game as it gives us a really good view of Dear's ideal plan, and not some build he prepared then had to abandon down some contingency avenue, making us guess at the original game plan. So while you may not get to play this one out flawlessly every time, you can at least get a pro-level view of what exactly your game plan should be in that case. With a little study and some play testing anyone should be able to do this IMO, and since the build is so laid out so far into the game I think it's a great one to use if you're not too great at the game (i.e. me :D )

I'm gonna go look over Dear's other games from this group tomorrow, so stoked to go over these goodies. It's so rare that such a smart player gets to prepare for ONE matchup for so long and gets to execute them all perfectly. Dear is now one of my favorite Protoss.

If you liked this at all, check out SC2John's blog, specifically this Dear themed one. He does this sort of stuff all the time, and also helped write the most recent TL Strategy Article about a Stable PvP 2 Gate expand that is responsible for my own recovery in the mirror match up department.

Thanks SC2John! You're a boss.

Build Name Ideas:

I think something clever involving Dear would be cool and silly, especially because something specific like "Immortal All-In" or "2-2-2 All-In" won't do this one justice. We need a "Man Train" "Soul Train" type name me thinks. I like "Dear Itself", as in "There is nothing to fear, other than fear itself." But Dear instead of fear. Get it? Boy I am clever.

How about one of these:

Poll: Dear's complicated build name

The "Oh, Dear" (5)
 
42%

Oracle into Fast 3rd into Void/Blink/Colossus (2)
 
17%

"Dear Itself" (1)
 
8%

"Dear-struction" (1)
 
8%

"The Dear Express" (1)
 
8%

"Zerg is dumb" (1)
 
8%

Something actually clever. (Post a suggestion then why don't you) (1)
 
8%

"Dearcraft" (0)
 
0%

"Up yours Zerg" - Dear (0)
 
0%

12 total votes

Your vote: Dear's complicated build name

(Vote): The "Oh, Dear"
(Vote): "Dear Itself"
(Vote): "Dear-struction"
(Vote): "The Dear Express"
(Vote): Oracle into Fast 3rd into Void/Blink/Colossus
(Vote): "Dearcraft"
(Vote): "Zerg is dumb"
(Vote): "Up yours Zerg" - Dear
(Vote): Something actually clever. (Post a suggestion then why don't you)



Thanks for reading! I'm pretty bad at this game, so if any of my conclusions are wrong feel free to dispute them, I do not claim to be 100% right on anything. Cheers!

Kommatiazo


"You must enemy don't know, and very good micro" - Bosstoss #Wet4Ret
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
September 25 2013 05:05 GMT
#2
It looks like DRG

*Sunglasses*

Was a Dear in the headlights.
Kommatiazo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States579 Posts
September 25 2013 05:10 GMT
#3
On September 25 2013 14:05 Antylamon wrote:
It looks like DRG

*Sunglasses*

Was a Dear in the headlights.


ROFL

My roommate just asked me wtf I was laughing at... shown your post. Double ROFL!

wp
"You must enemy don't know, and very good micro" - Bosstoss #Wet4Ret
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
September 25 2013 05:47 GMT
#4
So...I actually looked at this game again I feel very disappointed by the way DRG played. I think maybe he was planning on a completely different build and got shut down FFE instead of gate expand and then get surprised by the early 3rd nexus...so, his mid game plan looked really sloppy and very spur-of-the-moment thrown together.

Some more important timings to note within Dear's build are specifically the oracle scout at 7:30 to check for the 3rd and then ~8:30 to check for lair timing, presence of double evo, tech structures, and gas count. I think the oracle functions about the same as a single phoenix for scouting that's used in most void ray builds with the added function of being able to kill drones and potentially force earlier spores. You can clean up the overlords around your base with the void rays. The early oracle in addition to void rays definitely allows you to take a faster 3rd, but you still run the risk of having it cancelled by a well-timed zergling swell (See Jaedong vs. Rain, S2 Finals). In this game, DRG totally misses Dear expanding and doesn't build a swell of lings until the nexus is nearly finished and a cannon is already up -_-. However, I think it's still fair to TRY and expand since you only lose 100 minerals and you don't have to have a 3rd up as fast as possible; once the void ray count gets high enough (+oracle can help out), the zerg can't trade effectively to cancel the nexus anymore.

The void ray/warp prism pressure is a brilliant move. In some ways, it reminds of that Creator build a while back where he uses DTs and small packs of blink stalkers to control the map so he can easily take a 4th.

Some quick tips on writing out guides and notes:
  • You want to be looking for WHAT each player is scouting for and what allows them to go for something that may seem unorthodox; for instance, this build would be an auto-lose against 3-hatch into a really quick hydra/ling timing (12:00) with only 1 evo.
  • You want to avoid going over ~50 supply in the build order, especially if players are interacting in terms of scouting, attacking, and mind games. If there are specific timings after that, it's better to use in-game times than food counts.
  • Generally the title of the guide will be centered around either 1) the type of early build it is and what unit it revolves around, or 2) the mid game composition and the general style of the build. For instance, (as a functional, unimaginative title) I would just call this "Dear's Void Ray/Blink PvZ". The void ray/colossus composition is more of a later-game composition.


All in all, it looks good! I'm not convinced this build is super legit because DRG played so oddly, but I think with the proper study and the right circumstances, it might be as potent as we saw in this series. I'm not sure.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Kommatiazo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States579 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-25 07:12:20
September 25 2013 07:08 GMT
#5
Thanks for the tips! I felt so dirty using supply numbers so late, but Dear was so untouched the whole game that they are still a legit means for discerning build timings and I wanted to do as much stuff EXACTLY like Dear did it for as long as possible so I recorded it that way, but with the timings penciled in also. I'm no pro, so I intend to steal literally everything from Dear haha, so now doing this in a vs AI or solo game for practice, I'll have a supply # guide that goes as far as possible. Regardless, I'll edit the BO a bit tonight to make it more like all the others on TL. I think builds look better overall how you usually do them. Plus, I wasn't REALLY trying to make a quality build guide so much as getting practice at writing out a game's structure and recording all the stuff I personally needed to copy a build/style, but I'll definitely refine for next time.

Also, as to the viability, my own thought process was pretty inline with yours, about how DRG looked very..,. un-DRGish in this game and didn't react as crisply as possible, beginning with his BO disadvantage, and spiraling out from there. However, while DRG didn't play super crisply, he still didn't really make any supreme blunders from what I saw. Other than trying to deny the third way more, or AT ALL, he reacted as intelligently as could be expected.

Something which strikes me as a little odd, but maybe it's standard, DRG goes for double evo and hydras, doesn't try to deny the third very hard (was he trying to drone up too hard?), but then he gets +1 melee with his hydras/lings planning on... a mutalisk switch? Then goes corrupters and not mutas and has to focus on a hydra based army instead, getting +1 ranged attack after melee. Do you think he should have gone for ranged attack and focused on roach/hydra instead of pure hydra ling and still gone for corrupters? Dear was so ready for both corrupter and muta that I kind of think DRG had already lost at that point and Dear just had to A move basically. Was DRG hoping to hold out and go for BL's? I feel like that would be so silly against so many stalkers/voids though. Plus a Tempests were just a few minutes out as well.

http://www.twitch.tv/artosis/b/464593499

Here's a VOD (in the very first game ~5:00) of a very rusty Artosis trying this out. He plays quite poorly compared to Dear (no shit huh? lol) and messes up the Colossus tech timing and ends up going for storm against roach/hydra, but its on Akilon so the fast third is WAAAAAYYY less risky than Derelict Watcher. He wins, but it isn't nearly as pretty as Dear's win. Hopefully tonight during Code S he lets us know how his Dear copying was going on ladder.

He gets another PvZ (vs [KT]HOTForever lol) at 56:00ish if you wanna glance at that one too. His Robo and Robo bay are way late (something to the tune of 1:30 and 1:00 = 2:30 late for Colossus to come out) and he goes for storm while getting colossus and has 0 sentries left so he dies SUPER hard to the second wave of a roach/hydra/ling timing lol. He did get a 3rd hatch kill with his voids though! Maybe Artosis isn't going to champion the ladder viability of this build afterall... I think it really is viable though, I'm gonna make it my go to PvZ for a few days and see what happens.
"You must enemy don't know, and very good micro" - Bosstoss #Wet4Ret
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-25 12:18:21
September 25 2013 12:10 GMT
#6
How about we don't name his build? Especially with all those stupid names...

And protoss all ins are lame. Its funny how they literally get a whole new expansion to work with now it just makes those stupid immortal all ins before 10:00 even stronger with recall...

from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
September 25 2013 13:21 GMT
#7
Call it the Tasteless build.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
September 25 2013 15:13 GMT
#8
On September 25 2013 22:21 MrCon wrote:
Call it the Tasteless build.


No, the Tasteless build is 4-gate into DTs lol.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Oboeman
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3980 Posts
September 25 2013 18:49 GMT
#9
let's take a step back.

Dear takes his 3rd with one zealot, one sentry, and one oracle (on the other side of the map), and one gateway.

you can't do that. it's a mistake from drg to miss the probe and not scout the 3rd until the cannon is complete and walled (and voidray out).

6-8 lings, and you can't get the third for another minute or so unless you keep the oracle at home.
Kommatiazo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States579 Posts
September 25 2013 19:08 GMT
#10
Obviously those name ideas are stupid, that's the point.

And this build seems to be as non-all-in as they come to me. It's a mid-game plan of attack more like, that gives you the opportunity to force the circumstances into one you can win in, and sets you up to fight on if need be. There's not a specific tech timing that's abused or anything. I'm really confused about calling this build an all-in, unless you meant to post this in SC2Johns write up of G3 where Dear DOES use an immortal all-in. But I still think it's a valid strategy in that case, but the point of this thread isn't to discuss how bullshit Protoss is or not.

On September 26 2013 03:49 Oboeman wrote:
let's take a step back.

Dear takes his 3rd with one zealot, one sentry, and one oracle (on the other side of the map), and one gateway.

you can't do that. it's a mistake from drg to miss the probe and not scout the 3rd until the cannon is complete and walled (and voidray out).

6-8 lings, and you can't get the third for another minute or so unless you keep the oracle at home.


Right! DRG did miss that opportunity. But like SC2John pointed out, you might as well TRY to take your third. Most times the Zerg will completely shut you down, granted, but worst case scenario you lose 100 mins, fall back to your wall, get out your void rays as planned, continue to harass with your oracle, then take your third at a more normal time and resume getting your killer composition out. Then you move out with your voids+MsC, oracle, and follow up with a prism and all of a sudden you're taxing zergs multitasking (and your own maybe, mine for sure) while you get +3, colossi, and more voids (maybe Phoenix's if they decide to react the Muta way, but with a -hopefully- denied 4th and some damage taken they'd be in a bad spot for that with SG tech and your 3rd up and running already).

In that scenario I'd feel pretty comfortable honestly. It's more the fast and heavy hitting hydra ling timings, like what SC2john mentioned already, that give me a worry. But Dear gives us a guide for how to scout often and effectively enough to see that stuff coming, though some of it you might just auto lose.
"You must enemy don't know, and very good micro" - Bosstoss #Wet4Ret
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