• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:37
CEST 21:37
KST 04:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon8[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway13
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues23LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris76
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL: A North American StarCraft LAN Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away
Tourneys
LANified! 37: Groundswell, BYOC LAN, Nov 28-30 202 SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ alas... i aint gon' lie to u bruh... BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent The Korean Terminology Thread
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Ro16 Group A [ASL20] Ro16 Group B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread The PlayStation 5 General RTS Discussion Thread Iron Harvest: 1920+ Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Laptop on Rent in Delhi – Smart Choice for Student
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1318 users

Phalanx's Daily #55: Musings, the deathball.

Blogs > Sir.Phalanx
Post a Reply
Sir.Phalanx
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Japan195 Posts
July 07 2013 12:20 GMT
#1
Hey guys, sadly no battle report or casting today! I've been hard at work trying to actually focus and study for my upcoming ICND2 exam (for Cisco systems), since I failed it my first try . I can't have too much to distract me, but I decided to put out some musings that I've had.

*I totally stray off topic so by the end i have no idea what I'm getting at

+ Show Spoiler +

One of the thoughts I had while doing stuff today was on the development of the death ball. Especially for the protoss race, the death ball really is the best way in which you can engage an army. Deathballs are, in nature, boring to watch. Everybody hates them because they're boring! Even the micro possibilities are truly limited by the way the death ball works since you ideally want to keep everything together. Imagine if every match you watched had tons of small battles, like in the trailers. Units positioned all the fuck around the place, fighting a flock of mutas here, a group of marines there, a bunch of OP-mines to the side. Not to say that such situations don't arise in pro-level games, but even for pros it really isn't "encouraged" to fight small engagements.

* Disclaimer*
Although this may have relavence to sc2, it's not like i'm trying to make some enlightening suggestion to blizzard to change the game. This is really more of a designer perspective, since I've had fantasies of making my own RTS for a while (it has an amazing twist to the game play that I can't reveal though o.O).

To figure out how to, on a sense of game design, get rid of the deathball, I first thought up why the deathball comes to be. It's pretty straight forward to think of. If you have 20 marines vs 20 marines, what's the best way to fight? Marines are stronger in numbers due to the simple fact that there's more firepower, making anything other than sending in all your marines at once (ignoring positional factors for now) much less efficient, leading to the player who kept his marines together for fights coming out on top compared to a player who sent in waves of 10 marines at a time. Part of the problem is that there isn't enough micro potential to change the simple math of 20>10.

Now, since the deathball is ez and for nubs, how can it be eradicated?

The best idea that I've had, mostly to encourage small engagements, was to make units not shoot above each other. What does this do? It, in effect, makes units less effective as they're greater in number. If you have 20 marines but you were in a spot such that only 6 could shoot at once (for example(not just talking range here, it's hypotheticals so think that there's only surface area for 6 marines to shoot)) then smaller forces stand more of a chance. In sc2, if you have 10 marines vs 20 marines, the 20 marines will always come out on top unless the 10 have god like micro (maybe not even then). The concept of making units weaker in numbers is central to my idea of how to design a new-age RTS game.

Don't get all up on me if all the ideas i throw out are already implemented by some RTS by the way, i don't play too many games .

Another design factor that could make units weaker in numbers is splash damage. In sc2, splash damage is pretty good at accomplishing this as well, although only to a certain extent. If you see a baneling, you split your marines. If you see a tank, you.... flank it? idk tanks are too smart-fire for as much splitting, but you get the point. With ample splash damage enemies are punished for having a larger group of units. The only problem with splash damage units is that there is the potential for them to be unstoppable in large numbers (kill masses AND kill small groups) so that's something that would need very careful design. If anything, very strong splash damage but extremely slow reload might be good.

Making units less effective in larger groups gives way to another good mechanic; the ability for a player to actually make a comeback. In sc2, comebacks are very, very rare. If 2 players are at "equal" skill levels, then whichever one lost a few more units at any point in the game will lost. If a protoss loses a few HT before an attack, they lose. If the terran is up by 1 base and manages to keep it secured, you lose. It's very easy to see who's in the lead and who will win in most games of sc2. The reason for this stems back to the deathball; more units = better. 20 > 10. If such a change is made so that 20 =ish 10, then a player who is behind still can come back. It may be harder, of course, but they still will have more of a chance.

Basic recap of what I thought could be better in the design of an RTS game;
-Splash damage, to discourage unit clumps even further
-Deterioration of power as numbers grow, rather than increase (the deterioration is not meaning that 2<1, but more that each 1 is slightly less effective, so what would be 2 in sc2 would instead be 1.8. As numbers increase, each 1 is less and less powerful, so that 20 -> 12.5 or something. Don't trust the math, I didn't think this all out)
-The ability to come back from a situation in which you are slightly behind (due to aforementioned design aspects)

Totally have no idea what this rant/muse even ended up being about, maybe it's what I think could have been better about sc2, maybe it's just personal ideas I had about my own RTS game.


Thanks to anyone who reads, no real meaning to any of this so just take it as a little idea about games .

P.S.
My current clan has some sort of sponsorship?? THEN I MUST REDIRECT YOU!!! TO OUR WEB PAGE!!!
http://nacgaming.net/

P.P.S.
Although no longer part of their community, Phalanx continues to support DarkOnyx. They have barely any activity, but with some more love maybe they might actually get their asses working . They're a great bunch of guys, and really the reason why I could get up to the league I am now.
https://www.facebook.com/DarkOnyxFTW

P.P.P.S.
Jump for the bubbles! Or the sky. Whichever this Corgi is aiming for.

***
Go to school - Laddder - Sleep - repeat. Who needs a social life anyways.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 14h 23m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 226
UpATreeSC 132
BRAT_OK 99
ProTech80
JuggernautJason75
MindelVK 32
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3029
Rain 1464
Bisu 661
Shuttle 616
Mini 371
EffOrt 249
BeSt 192
Dewaltoss 146
Soulkey 143
firebathero 121
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 84
sSak 77
sas.Sziky 40
TY 35
Mong 27
LaStScan 0
Dota 2
The International112234
Gorgc11485
PGG 41
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps617
flusha110
Stewie2K64
Super Smash Bros
Westballz29
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu378
Other Games
Grubby3010
fl0m780
Beastyqt526
ToD277
Hui .171
C9.Mang0118
SortOf37
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1554
BasetradeTV24
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Dystopia_ 5
• Reevou 3
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix11
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1538
• Ler75
Other Games
• imaqtpie1050
• Scarra286
• Shiphtur286
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
14h 23m
Classic vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Maru
Online Event
16h 23m
Kung Fu Cup
16h 23m
BSL Team Wars
23h 23m
RSL Revival
1d 14h
Maestros of the Game
1d 18h
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Clem vs herO
Serral vs Bunny
Reynor vs Zoun
Cosmonarchy
1d 20h
Bonyth vs Dewalt
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d 22h
RSL Revival
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Sharp
Jaedong vs Mini
Wardi Open
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Copa Latinoamericana 4
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
EC S1
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.