• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 16:19
CET 22:19
KST 06:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !6Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win Did they add GM to 2v2? RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview
Tourneys
RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1: Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET [ASL20] Grand Finals
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1844 users

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Blogs > Shiverfish
Post a Reply
Shiverfish
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Canada95 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-20 15:59:03
June 19 2013 22:49 GMT
#1
Hi, it's been a while. Here is more of the same kind of stuff I've ranted about before. This one's important to me.

The gift that no one asked for

I do not believe in any hidden meaning or higher purpose in life. Our individual consciousness is the curious result of the properties of nature. We exist by a not yet understood mechanism of electrical impulses stored in a lump of brain matter. When we die, we cease existing; the configuration of molecules inside our skull is no longer in a state that supports a functioning mind.

Some people struggle with the lack of inherent meaning to our lives. But the answer is not so difficult. We have no purpose, so we might as well enjoy the time that we are alive. “Happiness” is a sufficiently broad concept that can capture all the good things in life. Many people would accept the proposition that finding all-around happiness is a worthwhile life goal.

Life is the gift that no one asked for. It is thrust upon us without our consent, and we are expected to accept it with gratitude. If, after examining this gift to our satisfaction, we decide that it is unwanted, we should have the right to cast it away.

The previous paragraph is a paraphrased excerpt from the book The Sense of an Ending by Julian Barnes. I was prompted to read the book after coming across a preview featuring those lines. It turns out that it was, for me, the best part of the book. The rest of the story was good but failed to measure up to the beautiful selection which hooked me in. It was describing the contents of a suicide note, in which “there was practically a QED at the end.”

I have previously written on the evaluation of a life by measuring happiness. The concept in economics is utility, which is the same idea. Happiness is all the good (positive) things in life, and pain is all the bad (negative) things. Happiness and pain come from both physical and mental sources. A life is worth living if the net present value of all future happiness net of future pain is positive. We should accept all projects (lives) with a NPV>0, and reject those that are negative. Or put a better way, allow those with a NPV<0 to self-reject.

The perception of happiness and pain is entirely subjective to each individual. Two people subject to the exact same set of external events and experiences will have different happiness NPVs because their sensitivities to the events are unique. Past memories, even though they are fixed and unchangeable, still affect forward-looking NPV because they alter perceptions and expectations, and reminiscing on good memories can be a source of enjoyment.

In my model, suicide is entirely justifiable if life happiness NPV is below zero. Such a life contains more pain than is justified by any compensating happiness. It is only rational to “return the gift” that causes more trouble than it is worth. An individual’s perception of their own life is purely subjective and cannot be understood by others. Just because an observer would gladly accept Person X’s life circumstances does not mean Person X must place the same value on those circumstances. And there is nothing wrong with Person X if he chooses to reject it altogether.

The heavens’ embroidered cloths

But I, being poor, have only my dreams.
I have spread my dreams under your feet.
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams.


+ Show Spoiler +


I encountered the above quote, originally from a poem by William Butler Yeats, while watching the movie Equilibrium. I was simultaneously confused and intrigued when I heard it. I did not understand what Trevelyan was sputtering about dreams; it seemed random and out of context. I was watching with my brother, and I asked him, “What was he saying?” He didn’t understand either, and we skipped back a bit to rewatch it twice. We did not know that he was reading a poem. Even though I was confused, that scene left a deep impression and has stuck with me. I looked up the lines shortly after finishing the movie. Sean Bean’s delivery of the poem was absolutely terrific. It has become one of my favourite quotes. It captures a delicate sense of hope, desperation, defiance, servitude, the imbalance of power, and the capacity to single-handedly determine another’s fate.

I cannot say that I am materially poor, and for that I am always grateful. But I would venture that I am emotionally poor. On Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I have satisfied my basic physical needs but not much beyond that. I would self-assess that my current short-term happiness NPV is very low or even below zero. It is very much my future prospects that drive me forward. In that sense, “I, being poor, have only my dreams.”

So what are these dreams I so highly value? Not deviating far from conventional attitudes, wealth and power come quickly to mind. I will not even ask for love – though I cherish it greatly, love’s fickle and unpredictable nature make me careful of what I wish for. How much wealth and power is enough, and what will I do once I achieve it? The discovery that wealth and power are overrated, and that true value comes from love and relationships, is a cliche lesson which I dismiss. Having wealth and power does not exclude love and relationships. There is no trade-off, and it only makes sense to strive for both.

Best before

Say in the near future we develop a treatment to prolong life indefinitely by “curing” aging. I don’t think we’re that far off – in my opinion, it’s all in the telomerase. Say I am able to afford this treatment. Do I have an obligation to go through with it? I think the general consensus is “no”. If I choose no, I am choosing a short life over a longer (though not necessarily infinite) one. Compare this to when a person wishes to commit suicide. What’s the difference? Why is one morally reprehensible but the other not? If one is justified in deciding that living to 100 years is sufficient, why can’t the same be said for a lower number? We all have a different utility curve, and for some, going all the way is not in their best interests. The only difference I see is that we give great and undue deference to the “natural” life span.

Man vs nature

People are products of nature. The only thing special about us is our ability to drastically manipulate our surroundings to impose great danger on ourselves. And that we are pretty smart.

Is killing another person wrong? No, not inherently. Consider a man alone in the wilderness. He would not be criticized for harvesting vegetation to eat. Or killing a mosquito out for his blood. Or killing a snake on his path which posed a danger. And finally, even killing a pig to eat. In nature, some animals eat other animals to survive. But if that man were to kill a pig, not to eat, but just for entertainment, is that wrong? If he were truly on his own, he would be no different than a wild animal. I think we would generally avoid classifying a predator as “wrong” even if it killed without a discernible purpose. We are animals; animals are part of nature; nature has no concept of right or wrong.

But a fellow human may be more worthwhile alive than as a food source. We developed clans, tribes, communities and civilizations on the basis that people can achieve great things when working together. The standard of living for everyone is higher than if they were to live on their own. This depends on cooperation and following a set of rules to maintain order. People who deviate from these rules are punished, not because they have done something inherently “wrong”, but because they cannot contribute anything to the community, are a net drain on resources, and in fact only make things worse for others. The goal of punishment is either to get the offender to change their ways and accept the social contract of civilization, or to remove them from the community altogether.

Following this logic, there is no such thing as right or wrong. Even someone who engaged in torturing animals, something I am absolutely appalled by, is not inherently wrong. However, they must still be punished. No person was directly harmed by their activity, but that is irrelevant. Collective society has found value in extending empathy to all things capable of thinking and feeling, and rightfully so. The offender failed to show an understanding or share this sentiment, and is making the world a worse place for everyone else. Thus, the community can dispose of the offender as they see fit.

In my religion, I am god

The atheism “debate” rages on for many people on many platforms. I personally have little interest – it will take time for believers to review their position, but I expect (and hope) religion to slowly die out over the coming years or decades as the internet enables greater access to information for all.

Instead, I subscribe to my own school of thought that the ultimate, and in fact the only, duty you owe is to yourself. (Actually, I tried to look up a term that expresses something along the lines of personal individual supremacy, but couldn’t find one. I thought I came across something like that before... dominion of oneself?) I am my god, and I am the only being I will ever truly know. If you are a person lacking the confidence to be your own god, and seek guidance elsewhere, then you may worship me. I will exploit you for my own needs, and if that is what you desire, it is win-win for all.

That would be fun, wouldn’t it? And scarily, not far from reality, as things like scientology have shown. The power of brainwashing can be frightening.

Finally, that takes me to what I will do with my ultimate wealth and power. I will decide what’s wrong with the world and fix it. In the process I expect to eliminate all those who are a source of trouble and a drain on the world. I will accept only those who behave like a good citizen. Then I look around my utopia and decide I do not belong among those people. I can finally leave. And it will be accepted, and they will rejoice.

**
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
June 19 2013 23:11 GMT
#2
You seem like a fairly benevolent god. Fuckit, I'm sold. Sign me on as your first worshiper. Does our religion require membership dues?
Ianuus
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia349 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-19 23:30:23
June 19 2013 23:29 GMT
#3
Instead, I subscribe to my own school of thought that the ultimate, and in fact the only, duty you owe is to yourself.


If everyone acted this way, it would lead to many different prisoner's dilemmas. How do you reconcile this with your mandate of maximising utility?

Following this logic, there is no such thing as right or wrong. Even someone who engaged in torturing animals, something I am absolutely appalled by, is not inherently wrong. However, they must still be punished. No person was directly harmed by their activity, but that is irrelevant. Collective society has found value in extending empathy to all things capable of thinking and feeling, and rightfully so. The offender failed to show an understanding or share this sentiment, and is making the world a worse place for everyone else. Thus, the community can dispose of the offender as they see fit.


Ethics based on evolutionary naturalism and ethics based on populist utilitarianism - both are terrible for a wide range of reasons. I'd type up a better response, but I'm in the middle of exam period so I'll just point that out out and let you work it out for yourself. In the meantime, why not read Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler? It addresses similar themes.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
June 20 2013 00:00 GMT
#4
The problem with the NPV thing is that certain mental states such as depression give us an altered view of our NPV. If humans were perfectly rational, your belief would be correct, but the cost of making a mistake and ending your life if your NPV is actually positive is extremely high, and lives that legitimately have no potential for improvement are rare.

The solution as a rational human, knowing your own beliefs might be compromised, is to only kill yourself if you're overwhelmingly sure your life can never, ever improve beyond it's current state, and your NPV is well below zero. This can only occur in certain circumstances, such as terminal cancer.

I don't consider suicide morally wrong; after all, it wouldn't be considered morally required of me to continue suffering pain just because my friends and family want me to, so the same should be considered of my life. However, the risk of making a stupid decision is just WAY too damn high for me to believe killing myself is a reasonable option, outside of the 99.9%+ certainty of a life that's going to only get worse and worse until I die. (Again citing the terminal cancer example.)

You don't have an obligation to take anti-aging treatments, though I still think it's stupid to refuse. Refusing anti-aging treatments doesn't immediately bring to mind the same emotional response as suicide, which I think is because of all the connotations of suicide in society, and that we as humans can understand it more readily. But put it this way.

Let's say we have a society with anti-aging drugs that let us live to the age of ~200 before we begin aging; after that, the drugs no longer work, and we age over around fifty years and die, the same way we do now at 25-30 years old. Now let's say someone at the age of 60 refused to take these drugs any more. This, I believe, would be considered suicide in a society where anti-aging drugs are taken by the entirety of the population, save those who are too young, too old, or a few outliers. The main reason refusing to take anti-aging drugs wouldn't equate to suicide in our minds is because living to 250 to us would be a bonus that we don't have now. If living to 250 was expected, it'd be considered a tragedy to die at one hundred. People would talk about how their life was tragically cut short before their time, and it would be considered suicide to stop taking the drugs before 200.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Shiverfish
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Canada95 Posts
June 20 2013 00:02 GMT
#5
On June 20 2013 08:11 FallDownMarigold wrote:
You seem like a fairly benevolent god. Fuckit, I'm sold. Sign me on as your first worshiper. Does our religion require membership dues?


Nope, just your loyalty. Allegiance and trust in me will do the rest .

@ lanuus, I follow that mantra, yet I do not recklessly do as I please. I understand the consequences of my actions, why they are frowned upon, and thus play by the rules that help keep order and progress our society. I believe people who we want in society can and will share that understanding. I have a problem with people who cannot.

My ethics are enforced by brute force. After all, that is precisely the mechanism with which we have developed civilization up to now, and will continue to do so in the future. That's all that's really works and matters.
Shiverfish
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Canada95 Posts
June 20 2013 00:07 GMT
#6
@ Salivanth: Exactly my point. Following the conventional values, we will eventually get to a point where refusing anti-aging treatment is akin to refusing to live on. Is that conclusion, that people are overwhelming pressured into living (almost) forever, one that you agree with?
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
June 20 2013 00:08 GMT
#7
You've summarized modernism tidily. It's amusing that a worldview becomes most confident in the time when it starts to unravel. Your comments about suicide and religion make for an amusing intersection: You're already dead. You just don't know it yet.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
June 20 2013 00:54 GMT
#8
On June 20 2013 09:07 Shiverfish wrote:
@ Salivanth: Exactly my point. Following the conventional values, we will eventually get to a point where refusing anti-aging treatment is akin to refusing to live on. Is that conclusion, that people are overwhelming pressured into living (almost) forever, one that you agree with?


That would really depend on what life was like when we didn't age. If we had the same quality of life throughout as we do now, then I don't see much difference between that, and the current attitude to suicide. If life got steadily worse as we aged though, that'd be a different story.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45164 Posts
June 20 2013 00:54 GMT
#9
I was hoping for math proofs
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
June 20 2013 03:52 GMT
#10
On June 20 2013 09:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I was hoping for math proofs

Haha this is what I thought of when I saw the QED.
User was warned for too many mimes.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
June 20 2013 05:54 GMT
#11
WHOA IT GOT REALLY PHILOSOPHICAL IN HERE AND I WASN'T BLAZED

240 IGNITE THE FERN
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Work and Play
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
12 Posts
June 20 2013 08:40 GMT
#12
Interesting read, you touch base with a lot of controversial points, and I like the way you approach them in a logical and blunt manner. Where I at first thought "oh my god wall of text" I actually got through it quite quickly. And although personally a lot of points in this discussion are familiar to me, it's still nice to hear someone else's view on things, so thanks.
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-20 11:00:18
June 20 2013 11:00 GMT
#13
On June 20 2013 09:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I was hoping for math proofs


Same. I left disappointed
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 13h 41m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 638
JuggernautJason112
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 10853
Calm 1716
EffOrt 315
actioN 87
Dewaltoss 82
Hyun 45
ggaemo 39
Mong 4
Dota 2
Gorgc6212
singsing2809
League of Legends
JimRising 235
Counter-Strike
adren_tv37
minikerr15
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu409
Other Games
FrodaN1583
fl0m710
RotterdaM198
C9.Mang0149
KnowMe122
QueenE60
Trikslyr59
nookyyy 43
Mew2King38
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 21
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 83
• Hupsaiya 31
• Reevou 16
• sitaska8
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV743
League of Legends
• TFBlade1237
Other Games
• imaqtpie1562
• Scarra395
• Shiphtur236
Upcoming Events
WardiTV 2025
13h 41m
ByuN vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
OSC
16h 41m
Big Brain Bouts
19h 41m
YoungYakov vs Jumy
TriGGeR vs Spirit
CranKy Ducklings
1d 12h
WardiTV 2025
1d 13h
SC Evo League
1d 15h
Ladder Legends
1d 21h
BSL 21
1d 22h
Sziky vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs Cross
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Ladder Legends
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
2 days
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.