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し そ きゅうと！
:D Thanks for these!
I've been learning Japanese on memrise. I'm almost through the first lesson; I've just to wait for the final few plants to be ready for watering, and then I'll move on to the next lesson!
There I missed learning the kana for 'WE' and 'WI'. However, 'WO' was included. Imagine that! Hm, interesting that they became archaic around 1946. Still, they could be seen by a foreigner and cause confusion, so it's nice to take lessons from more than one source. Two heads are better than one!
すごい！ Those snow sculptures! ez ご/ご
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Didn't see see your blog when you posted part 1 of this, so I'll just post my comment about part 1 here as well:
Japanese syntax usually follows the order of SUBJECT - OBJECT - VERB. This isn't actually true. It's (everything else, if anything at all, in no particular order) - VERB. See Tae Kim's guide. A very good guide by the way, although probably not very easy if one is completely new to the language (I went through Genki I + II before I stumbled across it, but I find it is structured much better than Genki).
A couple of handy things I came across so far:
The firefox plugin Rikaichan which displays Kanji information when you hover over Japanese text.
Two good online dictionaries: WWWJDIC and Denshi Jisho.
Handwritten Kanji recognition useful for practicing Kanji, especially stroke order.
Anki, a program for memorizing just about everything, very useful for vocabulary, for example like the Japanese Language Proficiency Test vocabulary.
On May 03 2013 02:35 hp.Shell wrote:
There I missed learning the kana for 'WE' and 'WI'. However, 'WO' was included. Imagine that! Hm, interesting that they became archaic around 1946. Still, they could be seen by a foreigner and cause confusion, so it's nice to take lessons from more than one source. Two heads are better than one!
ゑ (we) and ゐ (wi) are not used at all. Unless you read about the history of the language or very old books, I assume, but by the time you get to that point you will have long forgotten about these characters again. I doubt that these characters are even taught to Japanese children.
を (wo) on the other hand is the direct object particle and as such used very frequently (and always pronounced "o"). It doesn't appear in any words though, it's literally just a particle.
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forgive me if im wrong, but isn't い pronounced like the EE in "see"? the vowel sound found in "pink" isn't really used in japanese. and another thing is お. it probably resembles the vowel sound found in "or" more than "open." the "o" sound in "open" is closer to the japanese "ou" sound, like in こう.
sorry if it sounds nitpicky... i think these lessons are a great contribution, and i just want them to be the highest quality possible.
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On May 03 2013 02:38 spinesheath wrote:
ゑ (we) and ゐ (wi) are not used at all. Unless you read about the history of the language or very old books, I assume, but by the time you get to that point you will have long forgotten about these characters again. I doubt that these characters are even taught to Japanese children.
They aren't.
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Here I go. From zero to complete mastery!!!
あ い う え お
か き く け こ
ok this took way longer than it should've rofl.
あい 愛 ai
あう 会う au
あお 青 ao
あく 悪 aku
いう 言う iu
いえ 家 ie
いか 烏賊 ika
いけ 池 ike
うえ 上 ue
えき 駅 eki
おい 甥 oi
かお 顔 kao
かき 柿 kaki
かく 書く kaku
かけ 賭け kake
かこ 過去 kako.. so uhm.. かかお kakao?^^ I guess I'd have to use 片仮名 if anything for that :>
こえ 声 koe
well this was all fun, but I lost all motivation to study more after not receiving any bonus points in the 2nd vid 
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On May 03 2013 03:38 ieatkids5 wrote:
forgive me if im wrong, but isn't い pronounced like the EE in "see"? the vowel sound found in "pink" isn't really used in japanese. and another thing is お. it probably resembles the vowel sound found in "or" more than "open." the "o" sound in "open" is closer to the japanese "ou" sound, like in こう.
sorry if it sounds nitpicky... i think these lessons are a great contribution, and i just want them to be the highest quality possible.
I don't think one should care too much about that. Listen to (recordings of) native speakers. Everything else is seriously flawed (for example because the pronounciation of these English words isn't even unambiguous to begin with).
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On May 03 2013 02:38 spinesheath wrote:Didn't see see your blog when you posted part 1 of this, so I'll just post my comment about part 1 here as well: This isn't actually true. It's (everything else, if anything at all, in no particular order) - VERB. See Tae Kim's guide. A very good guide by the way, although probably not very easy if one is completely new to the language (I went through Genki I + II before I stumbled across it, but I find it is structured much better than Genki). A couple of handy things I came across so far: The firefox plugin Rikaichan which displays Kanji information when you hover over Japanese text. Two good online dictionaries: WWWJDIC and Denshi Jisho. Handwritten Kanji recognition useful for practicing Kanji, especially stroke order. Anki, a program for memorizing just about everything, very useful for vocabulary, for example like the Japanese Language Proficiency Test vocabulary. Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 02:35 hp.Shell wrote:
There I missed learning the kana for 'WE' and 'WI'. However, 'WO' was included. Imagine that! Hm, interesting that they became archaic around 1946. Still, they could be seen by a foreigner and cause confusion, so it's nice to take lessons from more than one source. Two heads are better than one! ゑ (we) and ゐ (wi) are not used at all. Unless you read about the history of the language or very old books, I assume, but by the time you get to that point you will have long forgotten about these characters again. I doubt that these characters are even taught to Japanese children. を (wo) on the other hand is the direct object particle and as such used very frequently (and always pronounced "o"). It doesn't appear in any words though, it's literally just a particle.
Tae Kim's guide in the past (not sure about now) has contained a decent amount of incorrect information, so I very rarely use it, and when I do, I always verify with a native speaker. These days I only use it to verify something I've forgotten so I don't have to worry about learning something that isn't correct. Yes grammatically the word order can be different, but the most common word order you'll read/hear is indeed subject-object-verb, or just the verb, for basic sentences.
I use Anki for a lot more than Japanese  It support Latex, so I use it for mathematics, I'm a waiter so I use it for learning ingredients of items on menus, business vocabulary, etc. It's really a fantastic program. I've been planning on introducing things like this as they become a bit closer to necessity as to avoid saying at the very beginning "Here's 100 things you need to do/get before you can even start" I find that a bit discouraging and it feels like doing a lot of work without actually learning anything.
On May 03 2013 03:38 ieatkids5 wrote:
forgive me if im wrong, but isn't い pronounced like the EE in "see"? the vowel sound found in "pink" isn't really used in japanese. and another thing is お. it probably resembles the vowel sound found in "or" more than "open." the "o" sound in "open" is closer to the japanese "ou" sound, like in こう.
sorry if it sounds nitpicky... i think these lessons are a great contribution, and i just want them to be the highest quality possible.
I tried to use words where I can highlight the romaji letter used for the corresponding kana. Pink was one of the first that came to mind when thinking of a long E sound with the letter I.
How do you say pink? The i sound in pink = long e = EE in "see"
You have an う sound when you say open? Open, pOke, cOpe. These O's all sound the same and = お
There are two ways of pronouncing おう sounds in Japanese. One being their standard pronunciations お(oh) う(oo). The other being the sound of お held for a longer period of time, like the word けっこう
Maybe our slightly differing opinions are based on location? I'm from the midwest in USA, so maybe we say things just a bit differently than wherever you're from.
On May 03 2013 04:10 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 03:38 ieatkids5 wrote:
forgive me if im wrong, but isn't い pronounced like the EE in "see"? the vowel sound found in "pink" isn't really used in japanese. and another thing is お. it probably resembles the vowel sound found in "or" more than "open." the "o" sound in "open" is closer to the japanese "ou" sound, like in こう.
sorry if it sounds nitpicky... i think these lessons are a great contribution, and i just want them to be the highest quality possible. I don't think one should care too much about that. Listen to (recordings of) native speakers. Everything else is seriously flawed (for example because the pronounciation of these English words isn't even unambiguous to begin with).
This is part of the reason I found some videos to include. I'll be gathering more recordings and including them as we go along also.
On May 03 2013 04:08 Stratos wrote:Here I go. From zero to complete mastery!!! あ い う え お か き く け こ ok this took way longer than it should've rofl. + Show Spoiler +
あい 愛 ai
あう 会う au
あお 青 ao
あく 悪 aku
いう 言う iu
いえ 家 ie
いか 烏賊 ika
いけ 池 ike
うえ 上 ue
えき 駅 eki
おい 甥 oi
かお 顔 kao
かき 柿 kaki
かく 書く kaku
かけ 賭け kake
かこ 過去 kako.. so uhm.. かかお kakao?^^ I guess I'd have to use 片仮名 if anything for that :>
こえ 声 koe
well this was all fun, but I lost all motivation to study more after not receiving any bonus points in the 2nd vid
Bonus points? You mean her useful tip/suggestion thing?
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In the first vid, she offers bonus points if we remember the meaning of the words. In the second one, we're just supposed to try ;;
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Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 03:38 ieatkids5 wrote:
forgive me if im wrong, but isn't い pronounced like the EE in "see"? the vowel sound found in "pink" isn't really used in japanese. and another thing is お. it probably resembles the vowel sound found in "or" more than "open." the "o" sound in "open" is closer to the japanese "ou" sound, like in こう.
sorry if it sounds nitpicky... i think these lessons are a great contribution, and i just want them to be the highest quality possible. I tried to use words where I can highlight the romaji letter used for the corresponding kana. Pink was one of the first that came to mind when thinking of a long E sound with the letter I. How do you say pink? The i sound in pink = long e = EE in "see" You have an う sound when you say open? Open, pOke, cOpe. These O's all sound the same and = お There are two ways of pronouncing おう sounds in Japanese. One being their standard pronunciations お(oh) う(oo). The other being the sound of お held for a longer period of time, like the word けっこう Maybe our slightly differing opinions are based on location? I'm from the midwest in USA, so maybe we say things just a bit differently than wherever you're from.
maybe... i'm from upstate NY, but i think our accents should be the same...
do you really say 'pink' like "peenk"? how do you say "ink"? when i say it, the "i" sound in "pink" should be like the "i" sound in "kid" or "ill".
"You have an う sound when you say open? Open, pOke, cOpe. These O's all sound the same and = お"
no, i was trying to say that お sounds more like the "o" in "or", rather than the long "o" sound found in words like open and poke.
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United States2822 Posts
The vowel sounds don't actually translate well to English because a lot of perceived monophthong sounds in English are actually diphthongs while all Japanese vowels (all five sounds) are monophthongs. That being said, I would have gone with something like the following.
あ → car
い → feet
う → true
え --> set
お --> core
Also to be noted is that the English 'k' sound is often aspirated, whereas it is not in Japanese. That is, the English 'k' sound is said with more force, and you can feel a burst of air when you say words like "kitchen." This isn't the same as in Japanese, and the 'k' sound is softer.
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In any case I think you should be exra careful when you introduce the 'r' column since the difference between English and Japanese 'r' is huge. The vowels shouldn't be much of a problem to imitate with some practice as long as you have some audio references.
Luckily for me, the English 'r' is much like the lazy pronounciation of the German 'r', while the Japanese one is somewhat similar to the actual German 'r'.
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United States2822 Posts
On May 03 2013 05:29 spinesheath wrote:
In any case I think you should be exra careful when you introduce the 'r' column since the difference between English and Japanese 'r' is huge. The vowels shouldn't be much of a problem to imitate with some practice as long as you have some audio references.
Luckily for me, the English 'r' is much like the lazy pronounciation of the German 'r', while the Japanese one is somewhat similar to the actual German 'r'.
Even in German, the pronunciation of 'r' can be realized as an alveolar flap (similar to the Japanese 'r') or as a uvular fricative (similar to the French 'r') depending on the region or dialect, neither of which are remotely similar to each other.
The rhotic 'r' in English (an alveolar approximant) isn't particularly similar to either, but it doesn't matter because English realizes alveolar flaps in other forms (such as in latter).
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On May 03 2013 04:29 ieatkids5 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 03:38 ieatkids5 wrote:
forgive me if im wrong, but isn't い pronounced like the EE in "see"? the vowel sound found in "pink" isn't really used in japanese. and another thing is お. it probably resembles the vowel sound found in "or" more than "open." the "o" sound in "open" is closer to the japanese "ou" sound, like in こう.
sorry if it sounds nitpicky... i think these lessons are a great contribution, and i just want them to be the highest quality possible. I tried to use words where I can highlight the romaji letter used for the corresponding kana. Pink was one of the first that came to mind when thinking of a long E sound with the letter I. How do you say pink? The i sound in pink = long e = EE in "see" You have an う sound when you say open? Open, pOke, cOpe. These O's all sound the same and = お There are two ways of pronouncing おう sounds in Japanese. One being their standard pronunciations お(oh) う(oo). The other being the sound of お held for a longer period of time, like the word けっこう Maybe our slightly differing opinions are based on location? I'm from the midwest in USA, so maybe we say things just a bit differently than wherever you're from. maybe... i'm from upstate NY, but i think our accents should be the same... do you really say 'pink' like "peenk"? how do you say "ink"? when i say it, the "i" sound in "pink" should be like the "i" sound in "kid" or "ill". "You have an う sound when you say open? Open, pOke, cOpe. These O's all sound the same and = お" no, i was trying to say that お sounds more like the "o" in "or", rather than the long "o" sound found in words like open and poke.
Where I'm from we say pink as peenk, yes. Ink is the same way. eenk.
On May 03 2013 05:29 spinesheath wrote:
In any case I think you should be exra careful when you introduce the 'r' column since the difference between English and Japanese 'r' is huge. The vowels shouldn't be much of a problem to imitate with some practice as long as you have some audio references.
Luckily for me, the English 'r' is much like the lazy pronounciation of the German 'r', while the Japanese one is somewhat similar to the actual German 'r'.
I think it's a lot easier to explain the Japanese R to musicians that play wind instruments. Just a light articulation as you produce the R sound. I'm really not sure how else to describe it in an easy to understand way - thus there will be a nice amount of audio to go with it.
On May 03 2013 05:45 scintilliaSD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 05:29 spinesheath wrote:
In any case I think you should be exra careful when you introduce the 'r' column since the difference between English and Japanese 'r' is huge. The vowels shouldn't be much of a problem to imitate with some practice as long as you have some audio references.
Luckily for me, the English 'r' is much like the lazy pronounciation of the German 'r', while the Japanese one is somewhat similar to the actual German 'r'. Even in German, the pronunciation of 'r' can be realized as an alveolar flap (similar to the Japanese 'r') or as a uvular fricative (similar to the French 'r') depending on the region or dialect, neither of which are remotely similar to each other. The rhotic 'r' in English (an alveolar approximant) isn't particularly similar to either, but it doesn't matter because English realizes alveolar flaps in other forms (such as in la tter).
Linguistics student?
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United States2822 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:54 Marimokkori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 04:29 ieatkids5 wrote:On May 03 2013 03:38 ieatkids5 wrote:
forgive me if im wrong, but isn't い pronounced like the EE in "see"? the vowel sound found in "pink" isn't really used in japanese. and another thing is お. it probably resembles the vowel sound found in "or" more than "open." the "o" sound in "open" is closer to the japanese "ou" sound, like in こう.
sorry if it sounds nitpicky... i think these lessons are a great contribution, and i just want them to be the highest quality possible. I tried to use words where I can highlight the romaji letter used for the corresponding kana. Pink was one of the first that came to mind when thinking of a long E sound with the letter I. How do you say pink? The i sound in pink = long e = EE in "see" You have an う sound when you say open? Open, pOke, cOpe. These O's all sound the same and = お There are two ways of pronouncing おう sounds in Japanese. One being their standard pronunciations お(oh) う(oo). The other being the sound of お held for a longer period of time, like the word けっこう Maybe our slightly differing opinions are based on location? I'm from the midwest in USA, so maybe we say things just a bit differently than wherever you're from. maybe... i'm from upstate NY, but i think our accents should be the same... do you really say 'pink' like "peenk"? how do you say "ink"? when i say it, the "i" sound in "pink" should be like the "i" sound in "kid" or "ill". "You have an う sound when you say open? Open, pOke, cOpe. These O's all sound the same and = お" no, i was trying to say that お sounds more like the "o" in "or", rather than the long "o" sound found in words like open and poke. Where I'm from we say pink as peenk, yes. Ink is the same way. eenk. Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 05:29 spinesheath wrote:
In any case I think you should be exra careful when you introduce the 'r' column since the difference between English and Japanese 'r' is huge. The vowels shouldn't be much of a problem to imitate with some practice as long as you have some audio references.
Luckily for me, the English 'r' is much like the lazy pronounciation of the German 'r', while the Japanese one is somewhat similar to the actual German 'r'. I think it's a lot easier to explain the Japanese R to musicians that play wind instruments. Just a light articulation as you produce the R sound. I'm really not sure how else to describe it in an easy to understand way - thus there will be a nice amount of audio to go with it. Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 05:45 scintilliaSD wrote:On May 03 2013 05:29 spinesheath wrote:
In any case I think you should be exra careful when you introduce the 'r' column since the difference between English and Japanese 'r' is huge. The vowels shouldn't be much of a problem to imitate with some practice as long as you have some audio references.
Luckily for me, the English 'r' is much like the lazy pronounciation of the German 'r', while the Japanese one is somewhat similar to the actual German 'r'. Even in German, the pronunciation of 'r' can be realized as an alveolar flap (similar to the Japanese 'r') or as a uvular fricative (similar to the French 'r') depending on the region or dialect, neither of which are remotely similar to each other. The rhotic 'r' in English (an alveolar approximant) isn't particularly similar to either, but it doesn't matter because English realizes alveolar flaps in other forms (such as in la tter). Linguistics student?
No, just someone with an interest in linguistics and foreign languages that does a decent amount of self-study. 
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What the hell is Wi and We? I've never even seen those before.
EDIT: Guess I should read until the end :D
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Wow a "learning Japanese" thread on Team Liquid. This is just like a dream come true for me. Thank you so much OP for making this
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