EPTEven now, the bitter taste of utter disappointment in my mouth has not completely washed away.
Dear Blizzard. - Page 2
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
Even now, the bitter taste of utter disappointment in my mouth has not completely washed away. | ||
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blueblimp
Canada297 Posts
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014488/The-Game-Design-of-STARCRAFT He captures some key points of eSports, but I think he entirely overlooks some reasons that Brood War was so successful as a spectator sport. For example (though it's been a while since I watched the talk), there's no mention of visceral aspects. A big part of BW's watchability comes from watching things blow up. Most death animations and sounds are explosive and memorable: especially marines, dragoons, zerglings, etc. The availability of powerful AoE (lurkers, mines, storm, etc.) helps to trigger these all at once, which is inherently fun to watch. In my limited experience with SC2, this visceral aspect is almost entirely missing. Another thing not mentioned is one way that BW is more interesting than non-e sports: traps. Mines and (stop) lurkers are super exciting. SC2 did introduce some traps (burrowed banelings), but IMX they are not as common or exciting. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On April 25 2013 06:08 blueblimp wrote: Dustin Browder's GDC talk is a good watch if you want some insight into why SC2 turned out how it did: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014488/The-Game-Design-of-STARCRAFT He captures some key points of eSports, but I think he entirely overlooks some reasons that Brood War was so successful as a spectator sport. For example (though it's been a while since I watched the talk), there's no mention of visceral aspects. A big part of BW's watchability comes from watching things blow up. Most death animations and sounds are explosive and memorable: especially marines, dragoons, zerglings, etc. The availability of powerful AoE (lurkers, mines, storm, etc.) helps to trigger these all at once, which is inherently fun to watch. In my limited experience with SC2, this visceral aspect is almost entirely missing. Another thing not mentioned is one way that BW is more interesting than non-e sports: traps. Mines and (stop) lurkers are super exciting. SC2 did introduce some traps (burrowed banelings), but IMX they are not as common or exciting. I'll say one thing, nothing will ever top the dragoon death sound effect and animation. It was glorious. Edit : Though now that I think about it, Nydus Worms have an awesome death sequence. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
If we liken BW to chess as we like to do, SC2 can be described more as speed/blitz chess with a 5-15 minute time control. "To be honest, I consider [bullet chess] a bit moronic, and therefore I never play it." – Vladimir Kramnik "Blitz chess kills your ideas." – Bobby Fischer "Playing rapid chess, one can lose the habit of concentrating for several hours in serious chess. That is why, if a player has big aims, he should limit his rapidplay in favour of serious chess." – Vladimir Kramnik Fast Chess | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
On April 25 2013 09:04 Birdie wrote: You can just watch BW, if SC2 sucks so bad ;D there's Sonic Starleague, bunch of foreign tours, TLS2 and 3 and the grand championship coming up this year, some Afreeca BJ leagues and tours, and endless players streaming endless games on afreeca and twitch. True but the game will never be played at the highest level anymore. The highest level now is short of pre SC2. Which is fine but... Thanks for all the comments guys. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On April 25 2013 11:02 Emzeeshady wrote: I think that instead of trying to find things in SC2 that entertain you, you are instead trying to find design problems that bother you. If you had a different attitude perhaps you would enjoy watching more. Oh please for fuck's sake don't give us that shit I tried to like SC2. I wanted to like it. But it's fucking bad compared to Brood War (in my opinion). I don't even think it's a good game in its own right. I'd rather play WarCraft III or a good fighting game like Guilty Gear. Faith is making a virtue out of not thinking. I prefer to use my brain, which tells me that SC2 will only continue to get marginally better, just like it got marginally better with HotS. It'll still be bad. First of all, its track record is horrible. It hasn't gotten much better over the three years it's been worked on. After three years, StarCraft 1 was already a good game, and its last balance patch had come out. But more importantly, the game itself just doesn't have any potential. They would have to re make the entire game and change fundamental parts of it, which they will not do. Just accept that some people don't like SC2, not because they are biased or because they didn't give it a chance. Some people just honestly think it's a bad game. Edit: As for how much of a chance I gave it, I played it for like 2 years. And you can't tell me that I didn't understand the game enough to appreciate it, because I beat pros and won a bunch of online tournaments with cash prizes. I was also top 200, and then GM when that league was created. Second edit: Do you think we don't want to like SC2? Of course we want to like the most popular real time strategy game yet, that has tournaments every day and the most skilled real time strategy game players in the world right now. The only reason we can't is because there is no substitute for Brood War. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On April 25 2013 11:02 Emzeeshady wrote: I think that instead of trying to find things in SC2 that entertain you, you are instead trying to find design problems that bother you. If you had a different attitude perhaps you would enjoy watching more. Seriously HOTS is a great game. I never played nor seriously watched BW and I can't comment on how good it was but maybe you are holding you expectations to high? I find SC2 very fun to play and watch and you probably would too if you gave it a chance. Also, have faith that the game will keep getting better. HOTS was already a large improvement on Wings and with every update the game will become better and better. That's the thing, for us who watched BW at the highest level it is simply impossible to be resigned with the state of SC2. To get an idea, imagine that the SC2 scene is matured and the game is freaking awesome. You have been following the korean pro-scene for 10 years and you love the game. Then, for whatever reason, someone kills the SC2 scene and replaces it with Commander and Conquer. All the pros and teams you loved were forced to either transition or retire. You watch Commander and Conquer proleague but you are clearly intrigued as to why the fuck would anyone ever replace SC2 with that so much inferior game. Think about it. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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GoShox
United States1837 Posts
 I tried to get into Wings of Liberty many, many times. Even got the Korean and European versions (of course the Korean one was useless cause the lag was too much to deal with). I really tried to get into it. But no matter how much I tried, I just couldn't force myself to like the game. Meanwhile, every time I'd wander back to Brood War, I'd find myself enjoying it. It has nothing to do with nostalgia or anything like that, I didn't grow up playing Brood War at all. Heck, I played a lot of the HotS beta and even enjoyed it quite a bit, but it just faded away pretty quickly and I don't even touch the game anymore except for the occasional 4v4. It makes me sad because I love the community, and a lot of my friends still play the game.. but it's just hard for me to enjoy it for some reason. And I'm glad to know I'm not alone in that aspect. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
However when I watch starcraft 2 I watch it in a similar way to a game of chess... only that unlike a game of chess I can see both sides while they can't see the other. It's fun because I always think: "what would I do in that situation ?" and than go holy shit when they do something I wouldn't have thought of or " why did he make that move", and I try to analyze the information he has that made him do it and sometimes the move is wrong other times is right, it's fun to see "why" not "what happens". I never feel "thrilled" while watching starcraft because it's no a gladiator trying to kill a lion in the arena and dying if he fails . Sometime a match has a bit of meaning to me if a friend plays, if someone I know or played against on the ladder is playing and inside I want him to loss or win but alas those are very few game and far in between. And i fell like commentators screaming and cameras moving every 5 second doesn't fit my way of watching. If you just want to see battle after battle, micro management and constant engagement you can watch AOE, you can watch BW, you can watch most Dota and RTS's. Because you don't need very skilled players to attack in 3 places at once, you need very skilled player do attack in 3 places at once at the right time with the right units and that, I feel, is why starcraft can be considered superior to those games, because you actually have people thinking hours upon hours every day of those little strategical tweaks and timings that make them so much better than everyone else... and if you can't enjoy the game for that I don't think you ever will. And it's not blizzard fault, they made an RTS in a time when there were non, they gave it graphics good enough to be compared to that of a first person game, they sold a shit load of copies and gave you custom games, modding tools, ladder, non competitive play and a campaign. They maintain the servers, they didn't put any money grabs in, the the expansion for an expansion price although the content could have equaled another full game. They threw in a few millions at the competitive scene and let it evolve. It's a game made by the guys that made Red Alter, Command and Conquare, AOE, BW and Warcraft. And quite frankly I can hardly see another team doing a better job. If you don't want to watch starcraft 2 that is fine, but blizzard doesn't "own" anything to their fans when it comes to starcraft like they do in franchises like Diablo and WoW. They deliver a great product and supported it, it's not Brood War and it will never be. If all you wanted was BW with better graphics and a few balance tweaks than you have about 3 sc2 mods that do exactly that. If all you wanted is to watch BW than you can go watch BW, there are literally archives of matches that will last you half a lifetime. If all you wanted was to complain about starcraft 2 not being fun for you to watch/play than you made your point as so many before you have , but it won't change, the game is made as it is and will remain as it is in the future... if you don't like it don't watch and/or play it. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On April 25 2013 21:46 Aterons_toss wrote: (...) If you don't want to watch starcraft 2 that is fine, but blizzard doesn't "own" anything to their fans when it comes to starcraft like they do in franchises like Diablo and WoW. They deliver a great product and supported it, it's not Brood War and it will never be. (...) It is in Blizzard's hand to make SC2 as good as BW, it's their duty after actively contributing to kill off a perfectly great korean pro scene. Of course match fixing and kpop were the biggest contributors to the end of professional BW, but it is not hard to imagine that the constant suing also played a huge role in scaring away the sponsors. In the end, all of us SC2 and BW fans want the same thing: an amazing and perfect RTS game with a flourishing professional scene. Something BW already was, something SC2 is struggling so hard to be. Why replace what's perfect with something which only promisses "to be good"? | ||
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