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On February 19 2013 06:06 ImAbstracT wrote:
If the goal of religion is to teach people to be moral beings it fails quite hard. Why is it then that some of the worst travesties in human history have been done under the banner of religion? To paraphrase a Hitchens argument once again, name one moral action or uttered phrase which can only be done by one who holds religious belief.
No, religion never did that, politics in religion did that. When the Jews freed themselves from the Macedonians (the greeks in common knowledge) during Hannuka, that was religion banding together to free themselves; when the Hasmonian dynasty added politics to the Jewish religion, that was when things fell apart. People critique the Vatican for its indulgences, no one critiques Christ for saying, "Love thy neighbour." Hitchens isn't exactly the greatest source in the world himself, he has contradicted himself and held many views that in general cannot be generalized. Also, it isn't about being DIFFERENT, it isn't about being able to do something that other people without belief cannot do. That is going about it the wrong way. Going about it that way is trying dismiss religion because it doesn't give you magical powers to do stuff others can't. Religion has also done some of the greatest things the world has ever seen, and to be fair, that argument is so banal that there is no thought to it. Finally, really, you don't need religion to be moral? Look at what people consider moral, it is what christianity and the general thought of the abrahamic religions. What is considered moral, the ten commandments maybe? Yes, over itme there have been modifications, but religion has always dictated what moral means. It's fine if you have a loss of religion, but don't revoke actual history to support views of other people that so often do.
EDIT: Nothing I say is going to change your mind. Go about this the way you want to, find yourself. I'm not going to be much help as some random on the internet.
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I've never understood the whole 'morals are derived from religion'. Alot of human society functioned perfectly fine before Abrahamic religion.
Also if you need religion to have a moral compass, you don't lack morals, you lack empathy for your fellow human being.
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On February 19 2013 11:19 FractalsOnFire wrote:
I've never understood the whole 'morals are derived from religion'. Alot of human society functioned perfectly fine before Abrahamic religion.
Yeah, because for all x, if x is a religion, x is an Abrahamic religion.
On February 19 2013 09:55 docvoc wrote:
EDIT: Nothing I say is going to change your mind. Go about this the way you want to, find yourself. I'm not going to be much help as some random on the internet.
never give up. if he can be rescued from the megachurch, he can be rescued from anything
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On February 19 2013 07:57 sam!zdat wrote:
John Locke is a moron
edit: nature is a battlefield. there are no ethics in evolution, there is only evolution.
And altruism is quite a favorable trait in evolution, especially for such group dependent creatures like humans.
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On February 19 2013 11:22 Tarot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 07:57 sam!zdat wrote:
John Locke is a moron
edit: nature is a battlefield. there are no ethics in evolution, there is only evolution. And altruism is quite a favorable trait in evolution, especially for such group dependent creatures like humans.
So is being a big mean son of a bitch. what's your point?
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On February 19 2013 11:21 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 11:19 FractalsOnFire wrote:
I've never understood the whole 'morals are derived from religion'. Alot of human society functioned perfectly fine before Abrahamic religion. Yeah, because for all x, if x is a religion, x is an Abrahamic religion.
I probably should've clarified and add all the previous religions before that too. Just that docvoc used Abrahamic as his main reference.
On February 19 2013 11:21 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 09:55 docvoc wrote:
EDIT: Nothing I say is going to change your mind. Go about this the way you want to, find yourself. I'm not going to be much help as some random on the internet. never give up. if he can be rescued from the megachurch, he can be rescued from anything
Not sure if serious.
Why can't you just let him be? Actually I guess that's another of my gripes with Christianity, the constant need to 'save'. At least some people eventually respect other people's decision not to believe.
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I'm not a Christian...
And if you want to say that society functioned perfectly fine before religion at all, you're wrong, because there wasn't any such thing as society before there was religion.
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On February 19 2013 12:31 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm not a Christian...
And if you want to say that society functioned perfectly fine before religion at all, you're wrong, because there wasn't any such thing as society before there was religion.
Then why do you want to rescue him?
Hunter gatherers count as a type of society.
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On February 19 2013 12:37 FractalsOnFire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 12:31 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm not a Christian...
And if you want to say that society functioned perfectly fine before religion at all, you're wrong, because there wasn't any such thing as society before there was religion. Then why do you want to rescue him?
because I'm a nice person and it pains me to see others fall into philosophical error
Hunter gatherers count as a type of society.
a) no, not really, under any meaningful definition of the term
b) show me some hunter gatherers with no religion
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On February 19 2013 12:40 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 12:37 FractalsOnFire wrote:On February 19 2013 12:31 sam!zdat wrote:
I'm not a Christian...
And if you want to say that society functioned perfectly fine before religion at all, you're wrong, because there wasn't any such thing as society before there was religion. Then why do you want to rescue him? because I'm a nice person and it pains me to see others fall into philosophical error a) no, not really, under any meaningful definition of the term b) show me some hunter gatherers with no religion
Give me your definition of what a society is.
Can't find one.
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I tend to think of a society as an organization of people which is not an organization based purely on kinship ties. it doesn't really matter though, because see (b).
edit: if you think people are sort of naturally atheists who get corrupted by the big bad priests, well, hmm...
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@OP
I too would describe myself as having been raised Christian, and honestly I would still not have a problem with describing myself as such. However, I think the vast majority of self-described Christians would not call me one.
I congratulate you for overcoming the box you were put in. You were given a set of assumptions growing up and you were able to recognize that those assumptions turned out to be unproven.
But I now challenge you to do it again. Losing your religion doesn't mean you have to subscribe to something else.
Question things again and again and again, until the only thing you are sure of is your own ignorance. At that point you will then be able to start the journey for truth.
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I have a question. This can be answered by the OP or any other devout Christian in this thread.
As an anti-theistic agnostic, I believe there are reasons to believe in a deity, but I think organized religion (Christianity, Islam etc.) is the most destructive force in human society. Therefore, I am really happy to live in Europe, where religion has been on the decline for the past 50 years and will continue to decline in the foreseeable future. However, when I look at the current state of the USA and the Middle-East, I'm greatly concerned. The large role religion plays in those areas is slowing down the progress of mankind in many areas, eg. science, politics. Therefore, I am really interested in how religion in general is doing in other areas in the world, since I only really know about Europe. Is it declining? Or remaining constant or even increasing? I really look forward to some point in the future when children are no longer indoctrinated on a grand scale, because that is by far the biggest reason why there are still so many believers in this day and age.
Please note that I didn't mean to bash religious people or any other party mentioned, I just expressed my personal opinion to explain why I'm interested in this subject.
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@OP I don't really think you gave up on "faith" it's just that you gave up on one particular god that you believed in for a large part of your life.
There are plenty of believers even in science, you could call these people methodologist worshipers. These people have simply traded their bible for the classical laws of science and now choose to believe in that instead as means of finding the truth. And I suspect this is what you have done, which is fine btw if you feel that it suits you better.
Hope your new faith will lead you better than your old one. 
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@OP
I read this with geat interest. Was well written compared to alot of Religous talks, which do go into strong beliefs of there own which leads to arguments. I want to ask a few questions just further my ideas or my opinions. I not sure what you would class me but i have beliefs. Not in a god or entity who created everything and to be brutally honest i do not care. I believe in morals treating everyone in the world equally and allowing everyone to have there own beliefs. I feel i would like to believe in "God" seems like a wonderful thing knowing that here is someone who will look after you and have place for you in the after life (Which again i dont believe in) So i pose a few questions, if you would no mind.
Apologies for my lack of knowledge in this religon
So you say from what i understood that you'll follow all the ethics of christianty but believe in no god?
Therefore you said you have the feeling of christianty (i do not understand but would gladly read more on what this is) so making you a believer but if so then what does this make you believe in?
Thanks
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So how many people in this thread were genuinely offended by the Djesus Uncrossed skit on SNL this weekend? I was hannel surfing and saw a Fox News reaction and it was hilarious.
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5003 Posts
Hi OP,
This is something that everyone goes through in their faith somewhere. In my opinion, it's particularly worse for people who grew up in a Christian household so they never made the "choice" to begin with and you grew up with it, so you think that you are questioning your faith.
Religion isn't really about facts or logic, it's more about resonation. Once you academically start ripping apart the Bible, you'll find that the books aren't really written the way we have imagined it to be as we were growing up. Christianity, in the end, is more about the message rather than facts. You're right, there's a lot of immorality in the bible -- but that's the point -- we are human, people in the Bible were also human (whether they existed or not, who cares). Everyone in the Bible sinned, even Abraham or David or even the Disciples. The point isn't that the things in the Bible are moral or not but more about the inner message within this.
I don't know much about your faith, because you only talked about the logic behind what you perceive to be Christianity and the things you have done. But what I'm getting is that, you are a seeker of truth. You should keep reading. Not just the Bible, but also what atheists write, what other people write, other philosophies, etc. Keep reading and reading, but do not make the mistake that you'll find the answer in other people's thoughts -- but look for fragments of truth that they speak from. Just keep an open mind, and eventually you *will* return to God. And once you do, your relationship will be a lot more organic rather than mechanical.
It's not about "evidence". The most funny thing is that people believe that people would believe in God if there was evidence. The Bible constantly depicts the opposite -- despite miracles, despite constant guidance, people always turn away from God. There are people, who tend to believe things like a science, and I'm sure evidence would be great for those type of people (but I don't see that lasting, because we're very curious and creative critters), but for most of us, evidence is never, ever, enough. You'll have to reach the core yourself, and once you do, that will be the foundation of your faith.
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John turns into Jack*
*See: Lost Seasons 1-6
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I will answer the questions as I have time.
Is it declining?
I think stagnating would be a better word
I don't really think you gave up on "faith" it's just that you gave up on one particular god that you believed in for a large part of your life.
The whole notion of god now to me is now repugnant.
So you say from what i understood that you'll follow all the ethics of christianty but believe in no god?
I would say Christianity holds no exclusive copyright on any moral teaching which can't be found in another faith, or from the lack of one.
Therefore you said you have the feeling of christianty (i do not understand but would gladly read more on what this is) so making you a believer but if so then what does this make you believe in?
I have totally given up the entire notion of God, a prime mover, creative force, etc. That has been replaced with skepticism and reason.
You're right, there's a lot of immorality in the bible -- but that's the point -- we are human, people in the Bible were also human (whether they existed or not, who cares). Everyone in the Bible sinned, even Abraham or David or even the Disciples. The point isn't that the things in the Bible are moral or not but more about the inner message within this.
The Bible is not presented as such. It is the authoritative and inerrant Word of God. To disagree with it, in a sense, is to disagree with your creator.
It's not about "evidence". The most funny thing is that people believe that people would believe in God if there was evidence.
Why is that such a faulty assumption. Let's say the Biblical narrative is correct. We are made by God as logical and rational creatures. Even subconsciously we are weighing pro's and con's in our head. We are constantly looking for evidence in the world around us to validate or challenge what we believe. Therefor, the supreme God of the universe, who made us as such, reveals himself in a way which is the total opposite. He creates us as logical beings who have to ascend to God by faith without evidence. Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." 2 Cor 5: 7 "We live by faith, not by sight."
Man, Bible school has paid off in some regards, haha.
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On February 19 2013 22:43 metbull wrote:
John turns into Jack*
*See: Lost Seasons 1-6
I see what you did there.
WE GOT TO GO BACK KATE
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EPT
