• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:10
CEST 10:10
KST 17:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview9[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9
Community News
Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?26Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris46Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!15Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6
StarCraft 2
General
Speculation of future Wardii series Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw? Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Monday Nights Weeklies LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments 🏆 GTL Season 2 – StarCraft II Team League
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies
Brood War
General
No Rain in ASL20? ASL20 General Discussion BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Starcraft at lower levels TvP
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Is there English video for group selection for ASL [ASL20] Ro24 Group F [IPSL] CSLAN Review and CSLPRO Reimagined!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum Teeworlds - online game
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 683 users

Dunning–Kruger at Work?

Blogs > Reithan
Post a Reply
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-21 02:57:06
August 21 2012 02:27 GMT
#1
I've been working on up-keeping my knowledge of the meta and trying to figure out what happened to SC2 when I took a 2 week break when a thought hit me:

I've been platinum for a long time now. 5 seasons to be exact. Maybe the way I'm going about trying to improve isn't working? (You think?)

So, I thought - why? Maybe the problem is, the thought process I usually have is, "I'm almost to Diamond, I just need to ____ and I'll make it this season." Fill in the blank with 'learn the meta', 'inject better', 'perfect this build', 'work on my micro', 'mass game to improve my knowledge'...anything.

The problem is, I think my premise may be flawed. Maybe I'm NOT almost Diamond. Maybe it's not just 1-2 fiddly little improvements that I need to make that are holding me back. Maybe I need to fundamentally improve my game?

So, now I'm trying to figure out the best way to figure out the best way to improve my game (recursive sentence is go!).

Dunning-Kruger Effect

*
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
Bombadil819
Profile Joined November 2011
United States45 Posts
August 21 2012 02:50 GMT
#2
Seems plausible. Bronzie since season 1.
Doomblaze
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1292 Posts
August 21 2012 04:17 GMT
#3
i mean as a plat player, you need to fundamentally improve your game. Im low/mid masters and I know i need fundamentally improve my game, since I can improve in every aspect of the game. What i do to improve is mass games, see what im having trouble with, then open up 2-3 streams and watch pros for a while to figure out what they do. If my build isnt working at all, I learn a new one, or I learn a good way to counter a certain strat
In Mushi we trust
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-21 06:19:44
August 21 2012 06:08 GMT
#4
I think the best way to try and improve one's game is not to think "Okay, if I make these two improvements, I'll hit Diamond." Fuck Diamond. You want to hit Masters. What are the 2-3 largest improvements on your game you need to make to hit Masters? This is effective for several reasons:

1) People underestimate the work involved to achieve the next rank. This is partly due to the Dunning-Kruger effect, and partly due to the planning fallacy. People think they're closer than they are and that it'll be faster than it will be. If you consistently put in the effort to reach what you think is Diamond level, you will fall short. Aim higher and you might get there.

2) Masters is more effective as a goal for overall improving your game. What's going to improve your game more?

A) "Okay, I want to hit Masters. Wow, my macro is NOWHERE NEAR Masters level. I have to work on that! I have to hit 70 supply by 8 minutes in ZvP EVERY SINGLE GAME." (That my opponent FFE's in)

B) "Okay, I want to hit Diamond. If I make several small improvements, that should be enough."

You are not aiming to inch into Diamond. You are aiming to improve your game as much as possible. Diamond league will arise as a consequence. If all you care about is hitting Diamond league, if that's what you really want, start all-ining. You'll get there way faster.

It's common sense. To reach Diamond, you need X improvement. The best way to improve your skill by X is to take on the activities that will improve your skill most effectively. But to do that, you need to look at the bigger picture. You're trying to do the bare minimum to hit the next rank. I'll tell you what the bare minimum to hit Diamond is. Start cheesing. But you don't really want that, do you? You want to improve as much as possible, and Diamond league is a reflection of that improvement, a symbol of how far you've come.

So forget Diamond. What parts of your play need the most improvement if you're intending to become a Masters player?
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
August 21 2012 07:11 GMT
#5
It wasn't so much that I was looking to hit Diamond and stop, I was initially just trying to break my main goal (Masters) into smaller goals.

Such as:

1) Hit top 8 Plat
2) Hit Diamond
3) Hit top 50 Diamond
etc

But I need to reassess this. I think, like you've suggested, performance-related goals would be better. My main perofrmance issues is supply-blocking and getting thrown off by odd builds and early aggression. I can actually hit the same timings as Stephano with the 11-minute max build if I don't get messed with...but that's worthless. I can't play in a vacuum. I need to create some resilience in my play.

Also, HORRIBLE multitasking and lackluster micro.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
-Kaiser-
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Canada932 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-21 08:05:44
August 21 2012 08:04 GMT
#6
On August 21 2012 11:27 Reithan wrote:
I've been working on up-keeping my knowledge of the meta and trying to figure out what happened to SC2 when I took a 2 week break when a thought hit me:

I've been platinum for a long time now. 5 seasons to be exact. Maybe the way I'm going about trying to improve isn't working? (You think?)

So, I thought - why? Maybe the problem is, the thought process I usually have is, "I'm almost to Diamond, I just need to ____ and I'll make it this season." Fill in the blank with 'learn the meta', 'inject better', 'perfect this build', 'work on my micro', 'mass game to improve my knowledge'...anything.

The problem is, I think my premise may be flawed. Maybe I'm NOT almost Diamond. Maybe it's not just 1-2 fiddly little improvements that I need to make that are holding me back. Maybe I need to fundamentally improve my game?

So, now I'm trying to figure out the best way to figure out the best way to improve my game (recursive sentence is go!).

Dunning-Kruger Effect


If you injected better and perfected a build, you would be master. Do that.

EDIT: Actually, add me. Kaiser.581. We'll do a short sweat session and I'll tell you exactly what you have to do.
3 Hatch Before Cool
UltimateHurl
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland591 Posts
August 21 2012 08:21 GMT
#7
While this "I'll be at Diamond if I just get better at X" can sometimes be mentality can sometimes be right the most common advice I see is just play more. There are people who boast about just using mass blink stalker builds or 4-gating all the way to diamond, with the only improvement is a general 'I'll not make that mistake next time".
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
August 23 2012 01:29 GMT
#8
On August 21 2012 17:04 -Kaiser- wrote:EDIT: Actually, add me. Kaiser.581. We'll do a short sweat session and I'll tell you exactly what you have to do.

Done and done. Now just to catch you online...I'm PST - you?
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech75
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 10078
Tasteless 637
actioN 567
sSak 509
Mind 242
ggaemo 209
Pusan 127
PianO 111
Soma 61
Sharp 48
[ Show more ]
Aegong 38
ZerO 30
soO 27
yabsab 23
Leta 18
Sacsri 16
HiyA 12
Bale 7
Dota 2
BananaSlamJamma137
XcaliburYe28
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss567
olofmeister78
Other Games
summit1g6056
ceh9215
OGKoka 53
Happy5
ZerO(Twitch)4
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick619
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos192
• HappyZerGling61
Upcoming Events
LiuLi Cup
2h 50m
Replay Cast
15h 50m
The PondCast
1d 1h
RSL Revival
1d 1h
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
Maestros of the Game
1d 8h
Classic vs TriGGeR
Reynor vs SHIN
OSC
1d 18h
MaNa vs SHIN
SKillous vs ShoWTimE
Bunny vs TBD
Cham vs TBD
RSL Revival
2 days
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Serral vs Ryung
ByuN vs Zoun
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
GuMiho vs Cham
ByuN vs TriGGeR
Cosmonarchy
3 days
TriGGeR vs YoungYakov
YoungYakov vs HonMonO
HonMonO vs TriGGeR
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Solar vs Bunny
Clem vs Rogue
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Cure vs Bunny
Creator vs Zoun
Maestros of the Game
4 days
Maru vs Lambo
herO vs ShoWTimE
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Hawk vs Team Sziky
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
Maestros of the Game
Sisters' Call Cup
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

LASL Season 20
2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
EC S1
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
Skyesports Masters 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.