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Helping A Bronze Protoss Player

Blogs > TangSC
Post a Reply
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
July 11 2012 13:34 GMT
#1
Today I have a first lesson with a new protoss student who has only been playing SC2 for about 2 weeks. I'd like to know your opinions on whether the advice I gave him (and the overall structure of how I plan to do my lessons with him) is as optimal as it could be. I asked him to go over his opening/gameplan and received the following information:

+ Show Spoiler +
So far, I've only played as protoss against the A.I. However, I have to some extent thought out a strategy against the different races, based on youtube tutorials, and my experience as terran. I'll write more about that in the section below, though.

PvZ
Start producing producing probes, which I'll continue doing throughout the game, unless I reach a point where I am close to having 3 bases fully saturated.
At 8-9 probes, I place down a pylon at the entrance. The probe then starts scouting.
I then build a gateway next to the pylon mentioned above.
Two more pylons, and an assimilator for gas.
Once gateway is done, immediately build cybernetics core.
Start warping in zealots.
Second assimilator.
More pylons as the need arises, trying not to get supply blocked. From this point in game I have no real structure when it comes to them. Attempt to place them around the base, in order to power structures.
Set up 2 more gateways.
As cybernetics core finishes, I immediately research warp gates. I start producing sentries mixed with a few stalkers, depending on whether the opponent is using air units.
At this point, I generally produce a few more units, move out, and expand.
Once warp gates is done researching, I transform all gateways, and research hallucinations for the sentries. Which I'll use to create fake phoenix scouts.

From this point on, very little structure. I keep constructing warp gates if mineral piles up, while trying to continuously produce zealots, stalkers and sentries, as well as probes from both nexuses. I will try to tech up simultaneously, producing a few colossi and immortals and upgrading my units. My goal will then be to push out while expanding to a third base. Taking control over the map, setting up a forward pylon, pushing, and winning the game.

If the game goes on for a long time, I'll research random upgrades for my units, expand as my bases run out of resources, try to obtain map control, create a ton of warp gates, and eventually do an air push with a mothership, carriers, void rays and colossi, backed up by several forward pylons, used to create an enormous push against his front gate as the air push dies. If this fails, and unless my opponent is a natural born turtle, I'll most likely lose from a counter push and backdoor drops.

Now, as “PvZ” would suggest, this is my opening and gameplan versus zerg. It is also, however, my opening and gameplan versus terran and protoss.


Here was my advice:

+ Show Spoiler +
hey, reading through your survey now i can tell you've put some thought into how you want to structure your build order and play style. thanks! first thing I notice is ALWAYS build your pylon on 9 (never 8) I see that you build a gateway next, make sure this is on 13 supply (After using 2 chronoboost on your nexus).

You then mention 2 new pylons, I'd change this a bit. gas on 15, then a single pylon on 16 is better. Cyber core when gateway finishes is great, just remember to chronoboost your probes at least 3-4 times in the earlier stages

I also think it's great that you go for 2 more gateways for a total of 3, but you should be warping in mixed production of zealots/sentries/stalkers. generally you add these 2 gateways in the mid 20s of supply, and aim to get a pylon across the map . Once you reach 2-3 warp ins (roughly 7-10 units) you can start to pressure your opponent WHILE you expand yourself

one of the keys to first lesson will be helping you perfect these early stages, but i'd also like to add a bit more structure to the midgame. If you build a robo after you expand, you can build 2 observers (one for base detection one for scouting) and skip the hallucinated phoenix. On 2 bases, I'd like for you to aim for 3 more gateways (a total of 6) so you can go for another little bit of pressure in the midgame while you expand again. The sequence looks like this:

1Gate --> 3Gate --> Expansion --> Robo/Probes --> 6 Gate --> Expansion

You mentioned some random upgrades, I'm going to recommend sticking to +1 on a forge sometime in the midgame and maybe EVENTUALLY aiming for blink stalkers and +2
if you find you can't keep money low with 6 gates, you can also produce some immortals (or colossus)
but your primary focus will be keeping your early-game timings PRECISE and CONSISTENT, and keeping that production steady on probes/gateway units/pylons in the midgame. You'll have multiple chances to scout: 1) From probe, 2) from first stalker you build, 3) from your 3-gate warpin push, 4) from your observer, 5) from your 6-gate warpin push


I would appreciate any feedback from you guys as to how I can improve the efficiency of my time with him. Thanks!

- Tang

*
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
MisterD
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1338 Posts
July 11 2012 14:29 GMT
#2
read gheeds blog. bronzies don't need macro/build order advice, they need thinking advice.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=328804
Gold isn't everything in life... you need wood, too!
EnE
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
417 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 14:55:56
July 11 2012 14:54 GMT
#3
Um, Tang, you're supposed to just tell him to use all his hotkeys and control groups and get him practicing just expanding always and spending money. No strategies, no builds to remember, they're a bad idea with a bronze player.

Give him something better and simple like, always take a base more than your opponent and try to keep your money under 1500. If he can do that, he'll own all bronzes and he'll do it with MACRO and QUICK IMPROVEMENT instead of remembering a lot of stuff in his brain.
I'm embarrased by my past actions and even more ashamed of my present thoughts and future endeavors to clear my name.
Raysalis
Profile Joined July 2010
Malaysia1034 Posts
July 11 2012 15:11 GMT
#4
I like the fact you are being very encouraging to him, quite important for the very early stages to encourage him to work harder.

Reading the build that he gave you, seems like he might have did more thinking/researching then actually playing the game. The reply you give him is sound but might be a bit too overwhelming for a beginner. Its probably better to break up the work into a few smaller sections so that he is not overwhelmed and can work on only a few key things at a time. Beginners dont usually play a lot of games either so you might need to incorporate a system to get him to play to balance out the theory, knowledge and practice ratio.

Since i am bad at explaining, i will give you a rough example of what im trying to say :p

Very rough example:
First session get him to work on the rough build order and dont bother´refining it too much initially.
Maybe give him the basic skeleton: 1Gate --> 3Gate --> Expansion --> Robo/Probes --> 6 Gate --> Expansion
And ask him to always build units, probes and dont get supply block.

Then get him to play (10-15 games) and send you the replays ( to get him to play the game and familiarised with built)

Next session
Go through replay and point out only the most critical mistakes (especially recurring mistakes that happen across multiple games). Its probably better to emphasize on the mechanical mistake more. the Add a bit more detail to built base on the most critical area from the replay. Make sure he is not working on more than 5 things so that improvement is focus.

Ask him to play another (10-15 games)...etc

I think this way he is slowly gaining knowledge without getting overwhelmed; you are getting him to play more so he is gaining experience, improving mechanics, better intuition..; and you guys are always working on the area that he most need since it will be based on his most critical mistakes from his own games.
At bronze level, its probably better to keep the strategic part clear and simple and to push him harder on the mechanical side.
:)
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
July 11 2012 16:19 GMT
#5
On July 11 2012 23:54 EnE wrote:
Um, Tang, you're supposed to just tell him to use all his hotkeys and control groups and get him practicing just expanding always and spending money. No strategies, no builds to remember, they're a bad idea with a bronze player.

Give him something better and simple like, always take a base more than your opponent and try to keep your money under 1500. If he can do that, he'll own all bronzes and he'll do it with MACRO and QUICK IMPROVEMENT instead of remembering a lot of stuff in his brain.

Hey EnE thanks for the feedback, we spent time going over hotkeys, control groups, expanding, and keeping money low. I actually think precise build order steps are important at any level, especially keeping the structure of the 13g 15g 16p etc, though I definitely agree that it's easy to "overload" a newer player with information.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
July 11 2012 16:27 GMT
#6
On July 12 2012 00:11 Raysalis wrote:
I like the fact you are being very encouraging to him, quite important for the very early stages to encourage him to work harder.

Reading the build that he gave you, seems like he might have did more thinking/researching then actually playing the game. The reply you give him is sound but might be a bit too overwhelming for a beginner. Its probably better to break up the work into a few smaller sections so that he is not overwhelmed and can work on only a few key things at a time. Beginners dont usually play a lot of games either so you might need to incorporate a system to get him to play to balance out the theory, knowledge and practice ratio.

Since i am bad at explaining, i will give you a rough example of what im trying to say :p

Very rough example:
First session get him to work on the rough build order and dont bother´refining it too much initially.
Maybe give him the basic skeleton: 1Gate --> 3Gate --> Expansion --> Robo/Probes --> 6 Gate --> Expansion
And ask him to always build units, probes and dont get supply block.

Then get him to play (10-15 games) and send you the replays ( to get him to play the game and familiarised with built)

Next session
Go through replay and point out only the most critical mistakes (especially recurring mistakes that happen across multiple games). Its probably better to emphasize on the mechanical mistake more. the Add a bit more detail to built base on the most critical area from the replay. Make sure he is not working on more than 5 things so that improvement is focus.

Ask him to play another (10-15 games)...etc

I think this way he is slowly gaining knowledge without getting overwhelmed; you are getting him to play more so he is gaining experience, improving mechanics, better intuition..; and you guys are always working on the area that he most need since it will be based on his most critical mistakes from his own games.
At bronze level, its probably better to keep the strategic part clear and simple and to push him harder on the mechanical side.

I think you're right, my response may have been an information overload (and even the lesson we did, to an extent). My intention wasn't necessarily to give him all the information so that he could use it right away, but rather provide it so he has a reference/basic concept of how he's going to play out the various stages in the games. I believe I'll need to pay more attention to the "Bottom Line", or the basic mechanics that are most important for learning players.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
EnE
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
417 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 18:05:37
July 11 2012 18:04 GMT
#7
On July 12 2012 01:19 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2012 23:54 EnE wrote:
Um, Tang, you're supposed to just tell him to use all his hotkeys and control groups and get him practicing just expanding always and spending money. No strategies, no builds to remember, they're a bad idea with a bronze player.

Give him something better and simple like, always take a base more than your opponent and try to keep your money under 1500. If he can do that, he'll own all bronzes and he'll do it with MACRO and QUICK IMPROVEMENT instead of remembering a lot of stuff in his brain.

Hey EnE thanks for the feedback, we spent time going over hotkeys, control groups, expanding, and keeping money low. I actually think precise build order steps are important at any level, especially keeping the structure of the 13g 15g 16p etc, though I definitely agree that it's easy to "overload" a newer player with information.


Ah, Okay. Yeah, I get what you're saying, the main reason I posted what I did is because reading the first spoiler tag, it felt like it was something that would take me a few reads and practices to really understand so I was worried it'd confuse a new player and have him stressing out too much over the order of his units to build efficiently, but I'm sure you know what you're doing however.

I just remember when I was a new player, basically just playing with the philosophy of always having another base and spending my money, I was able to very quickly establish macro mechanics which I feel like is great because you don't feel like you hit such a wall so early on.
I'm embarrased by my past actions and even more ashamed of my present thoughts and future endeavors to clear my name.
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