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A quick apologetic note to TL mods:
+ Show Spoiler +Less than 10 posts, and my first ever blog. Unfortunately I made a second account for the purpose of better anonymity but reread TL rules and won’t use said account (my apologies… it’s been a while  . Please forgive me and delete it.) Removed a few extra details here instead. Hoping this finds its way to the forums...
Given how wordy this post was, a TL;DR section is in order, but I’m hoping you read enough to know where I’m coming from when writing this. I've been pouring over information on law school in the US over the last few days, and am hoping I can get a few opinions.
So, a little about me:
I officially graduated last winter from NoName In-State University with a master's in engineering. I happened to go there for my undergrad too. Long story short I kind of didn't question who I was or what I really intended to do with my degree for my entire time as an undergrad. Picked up two internships, didn't really enjoy either of them. Undergrad graduation came along and I was still unsure what I wanted to do. A professor from my program approached me, and I agreed to work as an RA for him in grad school. Still, at this point hadn't put much thought into what I wanted to do with my degree. Thought research might be fun. I did a little the summer of my freshman year, and decided to give it another try.
Two years passed. The thesis I was working on was very trying, but I still got enough data together to get my master's. I defend successfully, finish my master's thesis and officially graduate winter of last year.
I've been spending the last 9 months or so looking for a job, have gotten several interviews but nothing seems to have stuck. I could blame my interview skills, the economy, etc., but I honestly am not that bitter about it as only in the last month have I really put serious thought into what it is I'd be good at and enjoy instead of what I'm hypothetically qualified to do.
The following book has really helped me in that light:
"What Color is your Parachute?"
Link: http://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-Parachute-2012/dp/1607740109/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341814557&sr=8-1&keywords=what color is your parachute
Before said book, my vision of job searching was something like: you search online, go to career fairs, and hope for the best. Then, you begrudgingly accept an offer, and move on. I now know it’s a very stupid way of doing things, but honestly to this point in my life I've never really had to think much about jobs. They have kind of fallen in my lap, and I definitely don't want that to sound like gloating. It has been a part of what's caused this problem for me today.
So what skills do I both feel I'm good at and enjoy? Something along the following lines:
planning, writing, creative thinking, problem solving, imagining, inventing
Clearly, several of these skills can be taken into an engineering environment, but one thing really troubles me about my prospects in my current career:
I am not hands-on. Not at all... I can study a flow diagram and discuss it with you in detail just fine, but take me to a plant and show me the process and I freak out...
I've learned that I'd be much more content with a career path that allows me to stay near a desk and mostly away from any factory or plant. Sadly, from my research I have not discovered many career paths for a engineer that accomplishes that. I would be more than happy to hear from some engineers if they know of one. The path that I've been looking into the last few days relates to becoming involved in patent law. Currently, this seems to me to be the best path for my skills and preferred work environment. However, I still need to do more research to be sure, and would love to hear more from some lawyers what the day-to-day operation of a patent attorney really entails. I'd also be interested in knowing if with an MS in engineering it is possible to take on a job as a patent agent, and then some years into the future perhaps take on some schooling, get a JD, and become a patent attorney.
But there is one final path that I need to consider: Would applying to law school for next year be a smart possibility? Perhaps striving to apply to law school right away for next year, and picking up some kind of temp work for a year would be a good way to go.
What scares me most about this possibility is all the risk that seems to coincide with getting a JD right now. Some statistics I've found: 1/3 of all lawyers last year couldn't find work after nine months. There seems to be a consensus on law forums that if you're not in the T14 schools it's incredibly difficult to work for a big firm, and that if you don't work for a big firm you're destined to spend the rest of your life in a relatively low paying job (like $40-50k) trying to pay off your loans. While many may look to become a lawyer to get rich quick, this really isn't the reason I'm considering such a career. However, I don't want the burden of being in debt (from what I’ve read average debt for law school is something like $100k+) the rest of my life when I could be making ~65k+ starting salary if I go to work today. So one question I have is:
Even at the best law schools, only about 55% of graduates go on to big law firms. Let's say I go to a law program, and don't land a big firm position. Is it really game over from there? Apparently there are a small number of other ways to get by, such as working in the public sector, which can take away your debt in full after 10 years' worth of payments (not that reassuring imho). And apparently you can start your own firm if you're really connected. I'd be interested to know if anyone has been successful going this route.
Onto my stats: Undergrad GPA: ~3.80, Grad GPA ~3.58
I know my grad GPA is a bit lower... Does this matter? From everything I've seen, they really only care about undergrad GPA. The fact that I've gone to grad school, and didn't fail miserably in a tough major, is a bit of a bonus I would think.
From what I've seen, getting an LSAT score of ~170 with the above GPA would make me competitive for most, if not all, of the T14 schools. Given that I currently have some free time on my hands, I'm confident I could train up to this point without too much trouble, so let’s assume I can get into a T14 school.
My second major concern is financing if I were to go to law school. From what I've read in the last year or so, as people are finally figuring out how many lawyers are getting bestowed diplomas only to get spit out on the streets, the number of applicants have gone down significantly (like 16%). So maybe the supply is going down a little, which is at least a little reassuring. And from what I've read programs still want to maintain their rankings in the US world news rankings (which apparently means everything to them), and to do so they have been doing everything in their power to make themselves more financially attractive with better scholarship packages.
However, financial packages with many programs seem to follow some shady practices. Programs will offer nice scholarships, such as half tuition or full rides, but require you maintain a certain GPA (such as 3.0). They offer several of these to increase their ranking in US news, knowing full well that since classes are graded on a curve several of their candidates will lose these and be left to pay the bill in their second and third years. Are there any specific programs that award scholarships based on merit, no strings attached? If it could be helped, I would really like at least some financial assistance in shouldering the crazy amount of debt. Another possibility I’ve considered is going to a good school in my specialty that is lower ranked than T14 and getting a strong financial package that way, but I’m uncertain if going to a specialty school is nearly as important as going to a T14 (from what I’ve read it might not be).
Some articles discussing several of the points discussed above:
“It’s a buyer’s market” (allegedly):
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202560485444&thepage=1
How law schools’ admissions policies reported placement numbers are revolving around rankings:
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ny_times_reporter_sounds_off_on_legal_education_accredition_and_the_crazy/
General Law School Placement Data:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304458604577486623469958142.html#project=LSCHOOL20120625
BigLaw placement statistics and approximate starting salaries:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162
TL;DR:
What I’d like to ask you is as follows:
My background is in engineering. I could go to work in the present job market, but would really like to look for a job focused on the following skills: detailed planning, writing, creative thinking, problem solving, imagining, inventing. The job cannot be very hands-on. Can you think of something I may have missed that fits?
If going down the lawyer route, is there any future for you if you fail to make biglaw beyond waiting tables the rest of your life?
Is going to a lower than T14 school strong in my desired specialty with a strong financial package a smart idea?
Let’s say I can get into a T14 school. From what I’ve said would you want to go to be a lawyer in my shoes?
I may have brought up a few other questions, but these are honestly the main ones in my mind right now. I’m really enthusiastic about the idea of working in ip, but with the current workings of law schools I’m not entirely convinced it’s an affordable or intelligent choice. While some of this obviously I need to figure out on my own I would be very interested to see what you think  .
Poll: In my shoes, what would you do?Go to law school (8) 40% Get ip job now, go to law school later: Patent Agent --> Patent Attorney (7) 35% There's an engineering career for you! (I will cleverly explain in my post) (3) 15% Other (I will explain) (2) 10% 20 total votes Your vote: In my shoes, what would you do? (Vote): Go to law school
(Vote): There's an engineering career for you! (I will cleverly explain in my post)
(Vote): Get ip job now, go to law school later: Patent Agent --> Patent Attorney
(Vote): Other (I will explain)
Quick Update: Thank you for your suggestions and comments. They're really appreciated. While I can't yet tell you exactly what I plan to do this has gotten me much closer to knowing. Some might consider making a really long, wordy blog to be a bit of a waste of time but this has really helped me to put into perspective what is and isn't important for me in my career and some steps I can take to get to that dream job, so thank you .
 
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Theres always room in finance for smart engineers
Depends on how much you applicable to either quant or algo roles but it's the kind of thing you could easily pickup if you're capable of scoring well in a masters.
You obviously have to like it as well, but it's the kind of thing that engineering majors enjoy doing
If you want to be even more specific, do a funded PHD in something numerically quantitative which involves some level of modelling and programming (sort of comes with the package anyway)
Finding funding is highly dependent on your ability to basically apply yourself to something that is required out there
Where i'm sitting, in the world of finance it's more and more pushing towards quantitative and numerical PHD's because they simply have a skillset which is so unique and required which few people have. It's instantly applicable in so many fields of modelling, trading, risk etc. Of course, naturally to succeed well you have to be shit hot at it but it's enjoyable enough for these kind of guys that they find it more fun than anything else
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On July 09 2012 18:38 BrTarolg wrote:
Theres always room in finance for smart engineers
Depends on how much you applicable to either quant or algo roles but it's the kind of thing you could easily pickup if you're capable of scoring well in a masters.
You obviously have to like it as well, but it's the kind of thing that engineering majors enjoy doing
If you want to be even more specific, do a funded PHD in something numerically quantitative which involves some level of modelling and programming (sort of comes with the package anyway)
Finding funding is highly dependent on your ability to basically apply yourself to something that is required out there
Where i'm sitting, in the world of finance it's more and more pushing towards quantitative and numerical PHD's because they simply have a skillset which is so unique and required which few people have. It's instantly applicable in so many fields of modelling, trading, risk etc. Of course, naturally to succeed well you have to be shit hot at it but it's enjoyable enough for these kind of guys that they find it more fun than anything else
As an undergrad in engineering I am too leaning towards finance  It seems that there's so many people getting Undergraduate degrees in business, economics, and so many people also getting MBAs there's really going to be a higher demand for quants who have traditionally been math and physics PHDs (my University (Toronto) only recently founded their Masters in Finance program, and such programs are relatively new too in the States as well)).
I can't give you any advice being your junior but I dont see why getting some experience in IP and patent torts would be a bad idea at all. Especially for IP, you have a Master's in Engineering (even better if Elec?), plus you have ambitions to go to law school. Say you worked for two years and established a good relationship with your company. Now you can try to get into a T14 school, have a backup plan, have most? of your loans paid back from undergrad/grad. Then, if you do finish law school now you're already connected with an IP company? I don't know well since I don't have the experience, but you posted as a public blog so expect idiots like my to put forth my 2 cents. And all I can say is that option 1 seems like a pretty logical/safe option from my speculation.
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the problem with being a Lawyer is, you can know the law very well, but if you are not convincing, if you dont have the appropriate personnality, you are not going to succeed in this, you have to be good and also look very self confident, otherwise ppl will notice you are not sure, and in this kind of job, you have 1 chance. it requires many social skills. so if you take Law classes, you better take some theater classes too or speech classes, it will help a lot. Also you better work for a lawyer the same time u take classes, it will help very much to find a job, 100%.
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I just graduated from law school, going into patent law (I'm a patent agent currently, will be a patent attorney after I pass the bar).
It sounds like you aren't entirely sure that you want to go into law school in the first place. If that is true, don't. It is a huge investment and you really need to be committed to the field before you try to go to law school. I saw too many of my classmates go into law school without really knowing if this was what they want to do. Most of them wound up either quitting and wasting a lot of money on a partial law degree, or graduating and either feeling obligated to go into a law career they aren't going to like or doing something else and wasting their law degree.
It is probably in your best interest to work for a year or two as a patent agent or patent examiner, even if you really want to do patent litigation (I assume you're keeping your options open right now because you didn't really talk about litigation vs. prosecution). First of all, it will give you some work experience in the field, which will make you a LOT more marketable to the firms. Second of all, it will give you a better idea of whether or not you actually want to do this for the rest of your life without the significant financial commitment of law school. Even though it is easier to get a job in patent law than it is to get a legal job in other legal fields, it isn't THAT easy. Connections and work experience are very important. You can pick up some of that along the way during law school, but it's probably in your best interest to get as much as you can before you go.
Finally, you probably want to take the patent bar right now. It isn't that easy of a test (I think the pass rate is something like 50%), and most firms won't even talk to you if you haven't passed it, unless you're in the top 10% of your class at a top school. Also, it really sucks to try and study for it during law school or during the summers (when you're trying to gain work experience).
I know a lot of this is pretty generalized, but send me a PM and I can give you more specific advice if you would like.
EDIT: Forgot to answer the questions at the bottom.
On July 09 2012 18:23 goodkarma wrote:
TL;DR:
What I’d like to ask you is as follows:
My background is in engineering. I could go to work in the present job market, but would really like to look for a job focused on the following skills: detailed planning, writing, creative thinking, problem solving, imagining, inventing. The job cannot be very hands-on. Can you think of something I may have missed that fits?
If going down the lawyer route, is there any future for you if you fail to make biglaw beyond waiting tables the rest of your life?
Is going to a lower than T14 school strong in my desired specialty with a strong financial package a smart idea?
Let’s say I can get into a T14 school. From what I’ve said would you want to go to be a lawyer in my shoes?
I feel like your goals are inconsistent with your restrictions. In particular, a job focused on inventing is by its very nature hands-on. That being said, patent prosecution fits pretty well with the rest of your goals.
Yes it is possible to do well as a lawyer outside of biglaw, especially in patent law doing prosecution work. Many of the patent prosecution firms are little IP boutiques with 10-15 attorneys, but they still pay 6 figure starting salaries. However, you really need to bring some skill or experience to the table for them. If you want to do litigation, it gets a lot harder to find work outside of biglaw. Your best bet there is to probably look for something with the government or a prosecution firm which has a litigation branch.
That really depends on the school. However, it can be very smart if you know what your specialty will be already. You are just less able to change your mind when you're already in law school. This is another reason to try out patent law before you go to law school. It gives you more flexibility to do something like this.
Probably not. I think you're too conflicted to make a decision like that right now.
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Your post makes me want to share my experience a bit. Maybe it'll give you some perspective.
I have an MS in Computer Engineering for a top 50 US univerity. I have immense student loans, but I make a good amount of money. After taking out my studen loan payments each month, my income is reduced to the equivalent of <$50k a year. Be CAREFUL with your student loans... the extra income may be worth it in the long run, but the first 5-10 years can be very rough.
I work in R&D, which has me at my desk more often than not. Occassionally I have to make trips to a manufacturer's plant, and I frequently have to do lab work, but lab work isn't the same as factory work. Your engineering field has a huge impact on your work environment.
As far as income is concerned, engineering has a decent starting wage, but you cap out quickly. If you're looking for a large income, I would look into other fields that have a higher risk-reward... finance, law, med school (I have a friend going into anesthesiology, and he's looking at $300k a year). You'll need to pay for higher insurances and whatnot, and take bigger risks, but the income has much greater potential than in engineering.
If you're inclined to stay in engineering, and you want to stay at a desk, software engineers are in huge huge huge demand right now, and are expected to stay in demand for years. There is an especially large demand for Java and Mobile developers.
Finding a job isn't as difficult s people make it out to be; you just need to be patient, give the search attention every day, and make sure you present yourself as someone who can get things done. Also, don't be afraid to take a lesser job right now, while continuing to search in the background. It's a bit underhanded, but work is work, and people are more willing to employ someone who has an employment history. It's all about stepping stones, while you find the place that's right for you right now.
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Calgary25954 Posts
What discipline of engineering?
From your post, you don't seem convinced that you want to be a lawyer. It sounds like you can't get a job so you're just going to keep going in school. Isn't the law market worse than the engineering market right now?
When I graduated I did the same thing. I had no idea what I wanted to be so I studied for and wrote the LSATs. I did terribly, realized I didn't actually want to be a lawyer, and got a job. Why don't you study for the LSATs while looking for a job?
Edit: I'm an engineer. 90%+ of my time is at a desk, as with all the engineers I know. It's harder to find a job that takes you into the field. You don't need to worry about that.
Edit 2: As I understand it, M.Sc Eng + Law is a perfect fit for a patent attorney. I've also heard this job is life-drainingly boring, but pays very well.
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On July 10 2012 02:58 Chill wrote:
I've also heard this job is life-drainingly boring, but pays very well.
It is. I did it for two years, and now I'm just a huge bum, although I'll probably end up getting back into it soon. The good thing is that the market for patent lawyers is very different than the market for lawyers in general since the only people qualified to do patent prosecution are lawyers with technical degrees from reputable programs. There aren't very many of us, and you don't need to graduate top of your class from Yale to get a six-figure job either. I like qatol's suggestion to take the patent bar and try to get a job as a patent agent, although there's like 1 job posting for an agent compared to every 10 for an attorney...
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From what you have listed as yours skills/what you enjoy, I think entrepreneurship/marketing might be a fit for you. Just a suggestion.
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I’m really surprised at the high amounts of people posting career issues here on TL, especially something so specialized like patent law. Maybe you have already seen these, but there are a lot of great online forums for such discussions that could be of more information to you, such as the TLS forums (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/index.php) . For the love of God do not post a poll and have people vote on what they think you should do; most people voting probably have no idea of the law industry, or even if they do, have no idea of your personal preferences.
I think to begin, the most important thing you should consider is whether you will enjoy law, or I guess enjoy law more relative to your current engineering experiences. You might not like the jobs you have seen, but most people don’t really love their jobs. If there’s any career I’ve seen people really hate (and leave from the industry), its law. I’m not saying you will definitely dislike it, just understand that it might not be as much of an improvement as you might think. Patent law as I understand, is a little bit of a special field within law and works differently in some areas than other law specializations, so I’m going to give the disclaimer that I do not know a large amount about patent law.
So what skills do I both feel I'm good at and enjoy? Something along the following lines:
planning, writing, creative thinking, problem solving, imagining, inventing
Your skills as you describe are extremely vague, and can be applicable to just about any field that requires a higher leveled degree. However, I see you enjoy problem solving and the like, and as I have heard, law is extremely boring. Law school is also a lot of case studies, which is probably nothing like what you have seen in engineering classes, and law careers in general are very writing/paperwork heavy. Keep in mind whether you will enjoy these changes or not.
The fact that you emphasize that you are not hands on naturally pushes me to suggest academia to you, as basically everything in the corporate/working world is in some shape or form, “hands-on”. You might not be so bad at hands-on stuff as much as you think anyways; most people straight out of school do not have much hands on experience, and it probably takes time to adjust. If you enjoy things on paper and in textbooks, perhaps you can enjoy their materializations as well.
What scares me most about this possibility is all the risk that seems to coincide with getting a JD right now. Some statistics I've found: 1/3 of all lawyers last year couldn't find work after nine months. There seems to be a consensus on law forums that if you're not in the T14 schools it's incredibly difficult to work for a big firm, and that if you don't work for a big firm you're destined to spend the rest of your life in a relatively low paying job (like $40-50k) trying to pay off your loans.
This is consistent with what I have heard discussing the subject with various law/former law/pre law people. The statistics often come from people who just pick some random law school to go to hoping they can get rich, and do not realize how oversaturated the supply of lawyers are given the high amount of law schools in the country. Basically you need to get into the T14 (and often times be above average in your class at least), or else you risk being part of those unemployment statistics. 55% of people going into “big law firms” (I do not know what this refers to, biglaw maybe? That seems like a really high percentage…), doesn’t mean the other people aren’t able to. Many might just choose to pursue other types of law. But at the end of the day it is important to realize the risk you incur if you do not get into T14/a big law firm. Don’t even think about starting your own right now, you should make partner first before considering such things.
I know my grad GPA is a bit lower... Does this matter? From everything I've seen, they really only care about undergrad GPA. The fact that I've gone to grad school, and didn't fail miserably in a tough major, is a bit of a bonus I would think.
From what I've seen, getting an LSAT score of ~170 with the above GPA would make me competitive for most, if not all, of the T14 schools. Given that I currently have some free time on my hands, I'm confident I could train up to this point without too much trouble, so let’s assume I can get into a T14 school.
Here are some stats: http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html
I would think that your highest level of education is the GPA that gets the most consideration, although I could be wrong. I can’t think of why any school would disregard a Masters GPA versus and undergrad. If it is indeed the case you are in dangerous waters, or at best average for some of the bottom T14. Law schools do not care about what you majored in, and in most cases do not care about what school you are from.
Also, DO NOT underestimate the LSAT. 170 is an extremely high percentile, one that I’ve witnessed many smart students not be able to break. The LSAT is also not a test that you can take a dozen times (2 is probably the highest I’ve seen, and you average scores I think). Assuming you can get into a T14 with nothing to back it up is a terrible idea. Realize that the LSAT is not a test of knowledge but a test of problem solving and thinking, meaning it might not work out to be in your favor sometimes. Side note: even 170+ does not put you in the running for Yale or Stanford, you really have to be something special. Harvard (#3) and under is all a numbers game though.
Here are some nifty calculators I’ve seen people use, but take it with a grain of salt: http://www.top-law-schools.com/guide-to-law-school-prediction-calculators.html
Btw, if you’re URM (read: African American, Hispanic, or Native American) you get a massive admissions boost.
My second major concern is financing if I were to go to law school.
Based on my knowledge, if its T14 you’re fine, but I probably would not give up a T14 school for financial aid. This isn’t like some Ivy League undergrad BS, there’s a reason why there’s this special tier they call the T14. It makes a large difference in job placement. Patent law pays well anyways.
Some other issues to address:
What discipline of engineering?
This is important. Make sure your discipline places well for patent law. I have heard some do not. Aslo as some have suggested, if you’re like a computer engineer, there are soooo many opportunities out there for you that isn’t law and can give you a cubicle job. However, from what you have said, I’m assuming you are not CS.
Theres always room in finance for smart engineers
I do not recommend you do this if you do not like your engineering discipline. If you pursue quantitative finance you will need to get a PhD or at the very least a MFE (or you have some sick connections). For those that want to get a PhD just to be a quant, IMO it’s a terrible idea. Why would you spend 6 years of your life just to make 200k when you could just break in from undergrad? I guess some people really like financial modeling (most hate it, I can’t imagine anyone liking it), or some people like their PhD discipline enough to get academia jobs as backup options, but most people are just kids who want to make money and have little understand of what a quant job actually entails.
the problem with being a Lawyer is, you can know the law very well, but if you are not convincing, if you dont have the appropriate personnality, you are not going to succeed in this, you have to be good and also look very self confident, otherwise ppl will notice you are not sure, and in this kind of job, you have 1 chance. it requires many social skills. so if you take Law classes, you better take some theater classes too or speech classes, it will help a lot. Also you better work for a lawyer the same time u take classes, it will help very much to find a job, 100%.
No.
TL; DR
1. Figure out whether it’s a worthy option to try to gain admissions into law school
2. Study for LSAT, gain admissions
3. Decide whether you want to make the investment
4. ???
5. Hopefully profit and not end up on another one of those law school hating job statistic articles
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There are so many great posts here . I would like to thank you all for taking the time to post your suggestions and experiences. Let me try to address each of your posts one by one. Also, please know that while in some places I may come off as a bit defensive, and possibly abrasive, that is not my intention. I genuinely appreciate that all of you took the time to reply.
Regarding what BrTarolg suggested about financing:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2012 18:38 BrTarolg wrote:
Theres always room in finance for smart engineers
Depends on how much you applicable to either quant or algo roles but it's the kind of thing you could easily pickup if you're capable of scoring well in a masters.
You obviously have to like it as well, but it's the kind of thing that engineering majors enjoy doing
If you want to be even more specific, do a funded PHD in something numerically quantitative which involves some level of modelling and programming (sort of comes with the package anyway)
Finding funding is highly dependent on your ability to basically apply yourself to something that is required out there
Where i'm sitting, in the world of finance it's more and more pushing towards quantitative and numerical PHD's because they simply have a skillset which is so unique and required which few people have. It's instantly applicable in so many fields of modelling, trading, risk etc. Of course, naturally to succeed well you have to be shit hot at it but it's enjoyable enough for these kind of guys that they find it more fun than anything else
I can understand how helping others maintain their finances can have a noble aspect to it, but I aspire to contribute something to society in the way of knowledge. Further, a world where so many are obsessed with getting a fat paycheck isn't really a place I see as a good fit for myself. Money has always been secondary to me compared to doing what I thought I might enjoy, though at times I may have lost perspective on exactly what it is I enjoy.
Peidongyang said:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2012 18:59 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 18:38 BrTarolg wrote:
Theres always room in finance for smart engineers
Depends on how much you applicable to either quant or algo roles but it's the kind of thing you could easily pickup if you're capable of scoring well in a masters.
You obviously have to like it as well, but it's the kind of thing that engineering majors enjoy doing
If you want to be even more specific, do a funded PHD in something numerically quantitative which involves some level of modelling and programming (sort of comes with the package anyway)
Finding funding is highly dependent on your ability to basically apply yourself to something that is required out there
Where i'm sitting, in the world of finance it's more and more pushing towards quantitative and numerical PHD's because they simply have a skillset which is so unique and required which few people have. It's instantly applicable in so many fields of modelling, trading, risk etc. Of course, naturally to succeed well you have to be shit hot at it but it's enjoyable enough for these kind of guys that they find it more fun than anything else As an undergrad in engineering I am too leaning towards finance It seems that there's so many people getting Undergraduate degrees in business, economics, and so many people also getting MBAs there's really going to be a higher demand for quants who have traditionally been math and physics PHDs (my University (Toronto) only recently founded their Masters in Finance program, and such programs are relatively new too in the States as well)). I can't give you any advice being your junior but I dont see why getting some experience in IP and patent torts would be a bad idea at all. Especially for IP, you have a Master's in Engineering (even better if Elec?), plus you have ambitions to go to law school. Say you worked for two years and established a good relationship with your company. Now you can try to get into a T14 school, have a backup plan, have most? of your loans paid back from undergrad/grad. Then, if you do finish law school now you're already connected with an IP company? I don't know well since I don't have the experience, but you posted as a public blog so expect idiots like my to put forth my 2 cents. And all I can say is that option 1 seems like a pretty logical/safe option from my speculation.
Your suggestion to start out as a patent agent is much appreciated, and something I'm strongly considering. Also, gj on actually thinking about what you plan to do before graduating. I cannot convey how much I wish I had done that before graduation.
Frieder posted:
+ Show Spoiler +
Definitely a good link reiterating many of my concerns with going into law today, and bringing up a few more. The more I look at it the more certain I am that going straight into law from school is not the right career move for me (not going to rule out the possibility of going later though).
Qatol, I especially appreciate your input. Thanks so much
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 01:01 Qatol wrote:I just graduated from law school, going into patent law (I'm a patent agent currently, will be a patent attorney after I pass the bar). It sounds like you aren't entirely sure that you want to go into law school in the first place. If that is true, don't. It is a huge investment and you really need to be committed to the field before you try to go to law school. I saw too many of my classmates go into law school without really knowing if this was what they want to do. Most of them wound up either quitting and wasting a lot of money on a partial law degree, or graduating and either feeling obligated to go into a law career they aren't going to like or doing something else and wasting their law degree. It is probably in your best interest to work for a year or two as a patent agent or patent examiner, even if you really want to do patent litigation (I assume you're keeping your options open right now because you didn't really talk about litigation vs. prosecution). First of all, it will give you some work experience in the field, which will make you a LOT more marketable to the firms. Second of all, it will give you a better idea of whether or not you actually want to do this for the rest of your life without the significant financial commitment of law school. Even though it is easier to get a job in patent law than it is to get a legal job in other legal fields, it isn't THAT easy. Connections and work experience are very important. You can pick up some of that along the way during law school, but it's probably in your best interest to get as much as you can before you go. Finally, you probably want to take the patent bar right now. It isn't that easy of a test (I think the pass rate is something like 50%), and most firms won't even talk to you if you haven't passed it, unless you're in the top 10% of your class at a top school. Also, it really sucks to try and study for it during law school or during the summers (when you're trying to gain work experience). I know a lot of this is pretty generalized, but send me a PM and I can give you more specific advice if you would like. EDIT: Forgot to answer the questions at the bottom. Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 18:23 goodkarma wrote:
TL;DR:
What I’d like to ask you is as follows:
My background is in engineering. I could go to work in the present job market, but would really like to look for a job focused on the following skills: detailed planning, writing, creative thinking, problem solving, imagining, inventing. The job cannot be very hands-on. Can you think of something I may have missed that fits?
If going down the lawyer route, is there any future for you if you fail to make biglaw beyond waiting tables the rest of your life?
Is going to a lower than T14 school strong in my desired specialty with a strong financial package a smart idea?
Let’s say I can get into a T14 school. From what I’ve said would you want to go to be a lawyer in my shoes?
I feel like your goals are inconsistent with your restrictions. In particular, a job focused on inventing is by its very nature hands-on. That being said, patent prosecution fits pretty well with the rest of your goals. Yes it is possible to do well as a lawyer outside of biglaw, especially in patent law doing prosecution work. Many of the patent prosecution firms are little IP boutiques with 10-15 attorneys, but they still pay 6 figure starting salaries. However, you really need to bring some skill or experience to the table for them. If you want to do litigation, it gets a lot harder to find work outside of biglaw. Your best bet there is to probably look for something with the government or a prosecution firm which has a litigation branch. That really depends on the school. However, it can be very smart if you know what your specialty will be already. You are just less able to change your mind when you're already in law school. This is another reason to try out patent law before you go to law school. It gives you more flexibility to do something like this. Probably not. I think you're too conflicted to make a decision like that right now.
I'll definitely consider starting as a patent agent, and put in some applications for that position. I was aware of the requirement to pass the patent bar exam, but didn't know it was practically a requirement to even talk to firms. I've read one or two posts on different sites where people discussed getting it after getting hired, but realistically this is something that has to be obtained anyway, so applying with it already passed definitely couldn't hurt. Definitely everything you posted was very helpful, and I feel what you said about how going to law school right now probably isn't a good fit for me is pretty spot-on.
Cheshyr, regarding his experience as a software engineer:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 01:07 Cheshyr wrote:
Your post makes me want to share my experience a bit. Maybe it'll give you some perspective.
I have an MS in Computer Engineering for a top 50 US univerity. I have immense student loans, but I make a good amount of money. After taking out my studen loan payments each month, my income is reduced to the equivalent of <$50k a year. Be CAREFUL with your student loans... the extra income may be worth it in the long run, but the first 5-10 years can be very rough.
I work in R&D, which has me at my desk more often than not. Occassionally I have to make trips to a manufacturer's plant, and I frequently have to do lab work, but lab work isn't the same as factory work. Your engineering field has a huge impact on your work environment.
As far as income is concerned, engineering has a decent starting wage, but you cap out quickly. If you're looking for a large income, I would look into other fields that have a higher risk-reward... finance, law, med school (I have a friend going into anesthesiology, and he's looking at $300k a year). You'll need to pay for higher insurances and whatnot, and take bigger risks, but the income has much greater potential than in engineering.
If you're inclined to stay in engineering, and you want to stay at a desk, software engineers are in huge huge huge demand right now, and are expected to stay in demand for years. There is an especially large demand for Java and Mobile developers.
Finding a job isn't as difficult s people make it out to be; you just need to be patient, give the search attention every day, and make sure you present yourself as someone who can get things done. Also, don't be afraid to take a lesser job right now, while continuing to search in the background. It's a bit underhanded, but work is work, and people are more willing to employ someone who has an employment history. It's all about stepping stones, while you find the place that's right for you right now.
I know that finding a job shouldn't be hopelessly difficult. I've had many interviews over the past several months. The biggest challenge for me has been finding how I fit into those jobs. I know many people have the philosophy that you can find a lesser job and work your way up and I'm not opposed to this. I am opposed to the idea that work is work. Ideally, work shouldn't have to be work. With the right job, applying the skills that you know best and love, work should be fun. That is the philosophy I have going forward. And while I am well aware there will be aspects to every job that might not exactly be fun or perfectly fit your skillset, or perfectly fit your idea of what your dream job will be, I aspire to find a job that at least fits enough of my skillset and life goals that it is fun a good portion of the time. Hopefully that provides some insight into where I'm coming from. Your post is much appreciated, and I do appreciate your support when you say there is a job out there for those who are attentive and patient .
Chill, it's good to know that I'm not alone in looking into this type of career path.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 02:58 Chill wrote:
What discipline of engineering?
From your post, you don't seem convinced that you want to be a lawyer. It sounds like you can't get a job so you're just going to keep going in school. Isn't the law market worse than the engineering market right now?
When I graduated I did the same thing. I had no idea what I wanted to be so I studied for and wrote the LSATs. I did terribly, realized I didn't actually want to be a lawyer, and got a job. Why don't you study for the LSATs while looking for a job?
Edit: I'm an engineer. 90%+ of my time is at a desk, as with all the engineers I know. It's harder to find a job that takes you into the field. You don't need to worry about that.
Edit 2: As I understand it, M.Sc Eng + Law is a perfect fit for a patent attorney. I've also heard this job is life-drainingly boring, but pays very well.
I am in a chemical engineer. I would say, though, that I wasn't considering law school as an "escape" from getting a job in the real world, but rather as a possible move to get into a career I feel I might enjoy. To be honest, while the prospects for lawyers may be far worse than those for engineers right now, that wasn't really the primary consideration for me when considering law school. And yes, perhaps going to law school and accruing a ton of debt when I have a perfectly good degree I could do plenty of different things with might sound a crazy, or like all I ever want to do is be in school. But I prefer looking at a wide array of different possibilities and then narrowing it down to a few I might seriously consider. It's part of my process, and I would consider what I did here more of a brainstorming exercise than a I'm only going to consider choice A or choice B type of exercise. And yes, nine months into a job search I should be well past the point of brainstorming, but I'm thinking better late than never...
ShadowDrgn, thanks for the heads-up:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 07:05 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 02:58 Chill wrote:
I've also heard this job is life-drainingly boring, but pays very well. It is. I did it for two years, and now I'm just a huge bum, although I'll probably end up getting back into it soon. The good thing is that the market for patent lawyers is very different than the market for lawyers in general since the only people qualified to do patent prosecution are lawyers with technical degrees from reputable programs. There aren't very many of us, and you don't need to graduate top of your class from Yale to get a six-figure job either. I like qatol's suggestion to take the patent bar and try to get a job as a patent agent, although there's like 1 job posting for an agent compared to every 10 for an attorney...
I would be more interested, though in knowing exactly what aspect of patent work is mind-numbingly boring though. Perhaps Qatol, you, or Chill would have more insight into that. I'm guessing it's mountains of bureaucratic paperwork, which I don't think I'd have too much trouble with as long as it's not the only thing I ever do.
Zorkmid, all I can say is maybe:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 08:24 Zorkmid wrote:
From what you have listed as yours skills/what you enjoy, I think entrepreneurship/marketing might be a fit for you. Just a suggestion.
There are elements of entrepeneurship that are very attractive to me. I appreciate the independence that it would bring, as well as the freedom to use your own creative thinking to come up with a new system or ideas for your business that gives you an advantage over your competitors (because if you're trying to make a clone you're doing it wrong). All I can say is maybe. The biggest challenge (imho) that such a career brings is knowing exactly what else you need that you can't bring to the table yourself, so that you can form a partnership of some sort to get those skills into the business. That, and accepting the uncertainty of your financial situation as your business starts up.
Tbh, being an entrepeneur is something I would be very interested in considering after I've established some financial stability from normal avenues.
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Thanks for the post Panya .
Looks like we had the idea to make incredibly long posts at roughly the same time lol. At this point I've decided I won't immediately go to law school.
Since I'm not overly worried about law school right now I won't worry too much more about the specifics of GPA and admissions. From what I've read, even if my academics aren't up to par, work experience is a consideration made by the admissions board if I were to apply to law school later so it would be possible to get into a T14 school by having a strong application in other areas. Obviously, a really high LSAT score would help too.
A good post about what admissions for top law schools consider:
http://blogs.law.stanford.edu/admissions/2010/05/21/got-questions/
Apparently from what everyone's posted being a lawyer is much more boring than I thought it was (though no one really posted specifics...). Something else to consider, I guess...
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That blog post is pretty good and has been around for a while, but realize the perspective its coming from. A lot of top schools do not like to admit how numbers-based they are, but the bottom line is, law school admissions is probably the most numbers oriented school admissions you can find. It is true that work experience can make up for low grades, but at the end of the day the LSAT is extremely important. Also, realize that it is a SLS blog. SLS is one of the two schools of the T14 (the other being Yale) that is holistic, and by holistic I don't mean they judge stuff other than the LSAT/GPA, which can make up for the LSAT/GPA, I mean you have to have a godly LSAT/GPA PLUS having a ridiculously good extracurricular background. The quality of applicants at SLS and YLS is ridiculous, and they are notorious for rejecting even high numbers people. As for the other schools, they are considerably more numbers based, hence you see a law school admissions calculator (when have you seen an admissions calculator elsewhere?).
Bottom line is if you are to make the T14 with a low GPA you are either going to have to make it up with some long term work experience (probably not like 1-2 years, probably longer), or you have to kill the LSAT. Both if you want a shot at SLS or YLS.
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Mind-numbingly boring isn't the right description; I was more referring to the life-draining aspect. I don't know what chemical patents are like, but in the electrical/software field, there's a 3-5 year wait for a first office action from the USPTO. You file patent applications and never see them again unless you stick with the same firm for a long time, and by then you've probably forgotten about them. Big companies file thousands of patent applications a year, inventors almost never care about patents and act like you're a waste of their time, and no one really cares about quality (especially since it'll be years before an application is reviewed). It's all just a big numbers game, and I felt very little sense of achievement playing it.
Dealing with examiners also sucks because their job is to reject your application any way they can, even if it's complete bullshit. It's hard to hate them personally for it though because they probably hate their lives more than you do. At least you get paid better.
On the bright side, you don't have to deal with paperwork. Paralegals and secretaries handle that stuff, not lawyers.
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ShadowDrgn probably has a better perspective on the work itself, considering he's been in the field longer than I have. I spent a year working part-time at a firm and I worked for a few summers at the patent office (one summer with the policymakers, one summer as an examiner), so I have a broad base to draw from, but not much actual experience. Also, I'm electrical/software too, so my experiences are likely going to be different from yours. The chemical field in particular is a little different from the other fields because you generally deal with classes of related compounds (which may or may not actually do what your patent claims it does, but nobody ever checks all of them individually) instead of an individual invention, and you will have to become VERY familiar with the ins and outs of the Hatch-Waxman Act (which is a very messy system that I am very glad I don't have to think about much).
ShadowDrgn is right that the work can be grating at times. You pretty much never get to see the applications you write ever again. Writing arguments to the examiners can be very hit or miss. Sometimes you see the most idiotic drivel coming from them, but you also will see examiners who care about their jobs and make very good arguments. It's very much a crapshoot. But at least you'll see a response to your arguments within a few weeks to a few months. However, the examiner's side of the fence works that way too. When I was working as an examiner, I once saw a claim as part of an electrical circuit application which I was able to reject using a trampoline as prior art (they basically tried to claim a wire mesh without even running electricity through it). You try to give reasonable rejections the attorneys can work most of the time, but sometimes the applications coming in are just ridiculous.
That being said, there are fun aspects to the patent prosecution job as well. The part I really enjoy is getting to learn about how all kinds of different technologies work. You have to be the right type of person to get enjoyment out of that, but it can be really cool to learn how this kind of stuff works if you have that kind of personality. This also may change for me as I spend more time in the field, so ShadowDrgn may have a different perspective.
Working as a patent agent before attending law school is definitely a good choice, and I'm glad you decided to go in that direction. You should probably think pretty hard about working as a patent examiner as well if you're serious about working in the field, especially if you struggle to find a position as an agent. It doesn't pay as well as a patent agent, but you are pretty much guaranteed to find a prosecution job at a firm if you work as an examiner for a few years. Even though I worked in industry for a year after college and worked at the law firm for about a year during law school, every firm I interviewed with wanted to hear about my couple of months at the patent office more than anything else. Just be forewarned that being an examiner can be pretty draining too. You are forced to specialize a lot more than you do when working as an agent, and it can be pretty frustrating to deal with poorly written (often poorly translated) applications and give them a reasonable rejection based upon the prior art. And when you find an application which is pretty well written and seems novel and nonobvious, you still have to give them a rejection (at least the first time), because that's just how the patent system works and that's how you make your counts.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 12:17 Panya wrote:
That blog post is pretty good and has been around for a while, but realize the perspective its coming from. A lot of top schools do not like to admit how numbers-based they are, but the bottom line is, law school admissions is probably the most numbers oriented school admissions you can find. It is true that work experience can make up for low grades, but at the end of the day the LSAT is extremely important. Also, realize that it is a SLS blog. SLS is one of the two schools of the T14 (the other being Yale) that is holistic, and by holistic I don't mean they judge stuff other than the LSAT/GPA, which can make up for the LSAT/GPA, I mean you have to have a godly LSAT/GPA PLUS having a ridiculously good extracurricular background. The quality of applicants at SLS and YLS is ridiculous, and they are notorious for rejecting even high numbers people. As for the other schools, they are considerably more numbers based, hence you see a law school admissions calculator (when have you seen an admissions calculator elsewhere?).
Bottom line is if you are to make the T14 with a low GPA you are either going to have to make it up with some long term work experience (probably not like 1-2 years, probably longer), or you have to kill the LSAT. Both if you want a shot at SLS or YLS.
Panya, I do appreciate the reality check you're trying to provide, but my understanding is that they report undergrad GPA numbers for the US News rankings, and given that the programs revolve around those rankings, that's probably the number they care about most. Feel free to provide a link if you find something online that proves me wrong, but tbh I don't care to argue this point to death. For one thing, I've decided not to go to law school right away if I opt to go at all. Further, I'm confident that if after a few years I decide I really want to be a patent attorney there are other ways to get there. For example, I can maintain a job as a patent agent, get an affordable degree at a local lower tier school while still working, and get promoted. From the limited investigation I've done into government patent examiners specifically, there is at least some degree of assistance for examiners that decide to go this type of route (though I don't know all the details presently).
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 12:24 ShadowDrgn wrote:
Mind-numbingly boring isn't the right description; I was more referring to the life-draining aspect. I don't know what chemical patents are like, but in the electrical/software field, there's a 3-5 year wait for a first office action from the USPTO. You file patent applications and never see them again unless you stick with the same firm for a long time, and by then you've probably forgotten about them. Big companies file thousands of patent applications a year, inventors almost never care about patents and act like you're a waste of their time, and no one really cares about quality (especially since it'll be years before an application is reviewed). It's all just a big numbers game, and I felt very little sense of achievement playing it.
Dealing with examiners also sucks because their job is to reject your application any way they can, even if it's complete bullshit. It's hard to hate them personally for it though because they probably hate their lives more than you do. At least you get paid better.
On the bright side, you don't have to deal with paperwork. Paralegals and secretaries handle that stuff, not lawyers.
ShadowDrgn, thanks for the insight . Now I know where people are coming from when discussing the nature of patent work.
On July 10 2012 23:16 Qatol wrote:
That being said, there are fun aspects to the patent prosecution job as well. The part I really enjoy is getting to learn about how all kinds of different technologies work. You have to be the right type of person to get enjoyment out of that, but it can be really cool to learn how this kind of stuff works if you have that kind of personality. This also may change for me as I spend more time in the field, so ShadowDrgn may have a different perspective.
Qatol, this is the aspect of patent law I am most excited about . The opportunity to be exposed to new and upcoming technologies is something I feel I would really enjoy.
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Canada9720 Posts
you want to be a patent lawyer in the states? i hope if you do, i hope that you fight for patent reform, since the patent system (especially wrt to computers and software) is very broken in the US.
good luck anyway, though
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The world is small, I just got a job as a patent agent after studying software engineering, although in the european system. Any advice for a budding young beginner?
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EPT
