• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 20:52
CET 02:52
KST 10:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book15Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)12Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker8PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar)12Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth Mutation # 510 Safety Violation
Brood War
General
ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02 Gypsy to Korea Liquipedia.net NEEDS editors for Brood War Recent recommended BW games [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ADHD And Gaming Addiction…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2544 users

[Ramblings] Maps are hurting the game.

Blogs > Angel_
Post a Reply
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 20:12:35
June 08 2012 20:06 GMT
#1
Maps play a huge part in the development of a game. They're important in tournaments in regards to selection, and competition, and style of play giving advantages, and whether vetoes are used or not and what not...but I actually don't want to talk about any of that, and instead focus on what maps do to actual play when they're all the same.

Think about the map pool. Think about Shakuras Plateau. Simplify it. High ground main, ramp down to natural, both at map edge, ramp to open area, base wedged outside of main and natural, another base straight vertical, rest of the map is wide the fuck open. Unique feature, instead of completely open all the way through, the middle has walls that pinch it like an hour glass.

[image loading]

Now think of every single other map in use. How many maps CAN'T fit into that description? \

tal'darim? eh move the wedged optional third to a wall and it's the same map with a bigger middle and your natural gets sieged diagonally instead of vertically. There's a gap between the main and third instead of high ground so you get drop play in your main instead of drop play in your main. oh wait.

[image loading]

okay, maybe the issue is size then. so make a smaller map in your head. it automatically looks like itd be more of a strong two base map but it turns out that if you took that same idea of shakuras, only made two possible mains, and just split the map in half...youd have a narrow as shit, vertical or horizontal thing with your third on a wall like shakuras third, and your pocket possible third would have to move up because there's just not room unless we make it a long map...in which case we just made atlantis spaceship. if we stick with the idea of shorter map, well the area is still probably open or has a cute wall in the middle to try to give the illusion that it's not open..but it's a small as shit map so that little wall doesn't really matter...and we have ohana and dual sight.

And then we get to the point: so maps are kind of the same, what's the problem? THe problem is that the game has developed by the maps. We had walled off mains, we did one base play. We had non-walled off mains on extremely short maps we did one base play or bunkered/cannoned HARD and did one base play with 2 bases. We started macroing better and that two base play started to look more like proper two base play. Then we got thirds, and so on. All through this though, the actual space we play in has been this wide open garbage area to just throw units at eachother. Positioning only matters when we can force a player INTO that position, or when we are FORCED to think about our position (beyond, "Oh, what units go at the front?") because of the actual terrain.

What maps have actually attempted to deal with that to force different engagements? To make players develop beyond our "Hey I've got a deathball!" "Whoa me too!!!! Let's fight!!!" Very fucking few. Sure players have sort of done it on their own, in the way of, "Hey I'm gonna have really harrass based play", or "Hey I'm going to do something with blink to abuse this high ground low ground", or "hey I'm going to sit siege tanks at your third because it's RIGHT by your main and slowly march in from the side." That's all fine and good. That all should be looked at REGARDLESS of the map. But that's not what I'm talking about. Maps should be taken advantage of no matter what. The problem is that nothing in the map design disallows or encourages or has encouraged people to move away from massive deathballs.

Maybe Crossfire is okay to look at. Lots of weird middle space. No way to fit your whole army unless you put everything in big lines. Lots of different close attack paths that were still seperated. A few side angles to come from. BUT it was a small as shit map. But if you did commit to a fight you probably couldn't get away well because there was no location even AT your base to really get positioning. But it was an attempt.

I'd like to see more attempts actually get considered.

I don't think all maps needs to be maze-like terrible cluster-fucks (or any, for that matter), but I do think that the main reason people have been so focused on just macro-play, and just big-ball who has the better composition play, relying completely on their ability to remax or their opponents inability to remax, is that positioning can't really be used well right now, and positioning doesn't at all limit people from simply throwing weight at eachother in the mid and late-games.

Maybe more corridors, more high ground you CAN land units on, more high ground you CAN'T land units on (or fly air units over), more chokes, more round-about attack paths, maps that experiment with NO real middle, maps that experiment with lots of high and low ground (hills), maps that use towers better than "hey here's some vision of the middle," more grass, just...I don't know.

It's not just an issue of, "Ideally a tournament should have a ______ map, a ______ map, a _____ map, a ______ map, etc...It's that our current pools and trends of map design all cater to beanbag chair throwing, and it only limits the potential complexity and depth of play.

-
Also, obligatory: "Maps hurting the game is hurting the game, is hurting my game, which is hurting the game."

***
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
June 08 2012 21:18 GMT
#2
deathball syndrome is a function of the game, not the map. for the map, if you create far too choked terrain, the deathball becomes vastly overpowered because you can only attack the front of it. wide open maps allows the maximum area to attack the deathball. mapping involves finding a good balance between these. shakuras and taldarim are both appropriately sized maps.

many things contribute to the deathball syndrome in sc2 itself. time to max supply, frail nature of low number of units ... but its mostly the ease of control in the game. unlimited unit selection, ability to quickly tab through units for abilities. and overall lack of micro.

go ahead and write to blizzard to implement units that require a bit more than 1a to be effective.
starleague forever
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
June 08 2012 21:29 GMT
#3
On June 09 2012 06:18 a176 wrote:
deathball syndrome is a function of the game, not the map. for the map, if you create far too choked terrain, the deathball becomes vastly overpowered because you can only attack the front of it. wide open maps allows the maximum area to attack the deathball. mapping involves finding a good balance between these. shakuras and taldarim are both appropriately sized maps.

many things contribute to the deathball syndrome in sc2 itself. time to max supply, frail nature of low number of units ... but its mostly the ease of control in the game. unlimited unit selection, ability to quickly tab through units for abilities. and overall lack of micro.

go ahead and write to blizzard to implement units that require a bit more than 1a to be effective.


I don't disagree with you at all. And I'm not advocating for too choked maps, just encouraging more variation and experimentation. Also, maps, unlike everything else you've listed, are something we have at least a little bit of an ability to influence. All the others, are literally, "well you might as well write blizzard and see how that goes." We can change our maps a little bit.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 22:03:06
June 08 2012 22:01 GMT
#4
The only thing mappers can try to do, ala breadth of gameplay, is to slow the game down by controlling resource income and thusly production, forcing players to engage with smaller groups and expo more. having fewer-resource-bases is a common feature in many user maps now. but ...

unfortunately blizzard will never adopt this, in keeping strict control of their game. all user maps are converted to normal resource amounts, and some are modified to favor two base play. which is why people like me keep saying, complain to blizzard. not to mention the community is doing jack all to steer the game in another direction.

starleague forever
Alexj
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Ukraine440 Posts
June 08 2012 22:05 GMT
#5
You described why exactly many people consider The Cloud Kingdom to be the best SC2 map so far
More GGs, more skill
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
HomeStory Cup 28 - Group B
CranKy Ducklings139
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 187
SpeCial 77
Vindicta 10
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 751
Dota 2
syndereN553
monkeys_forever524
capcasts69
League of Legends
Cuddl3bear7
Counter-Strike
taco 619
m0e_tv502
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King144
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor128
Other Games
summit1g8017
Day[9].tv891
C9.Mang0357
ToD224
ViBE90
FrodaN18
minikerr8
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 83
• davetesta51
• HeavenSC 13
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22049
League of Legends
• Doublelift4862
• Stunt152
Other Games
• imaqtpie1233
• Day9tv891
• Shiphtur213
• Scarra28
Upcoming Events
Escore
8h 8m
LiuLi Cup
9h 8m
Serral vs Zoun
Cure vs Classic
Big Brain Bouts
15h 8m
ByuN vs GgMaChine
Serral vs Jumy
RSL Revival
1d 1h
RSL Revival
1d 6h
LiuLi Cup
1d 9h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 10h
RSL Revival
1d 16h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
LiuLi Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
LiuLi Cup
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
OSC
3 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
KCM Race Survival
6 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-10
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Escore Tournament S1: W8
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round Qualifier
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.