• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:50
CET 20:50
KST 04:50
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45
StarCraft 2
General
RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" [TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview
Tourneys
2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship RSL Revival: Season 3 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle What happened to TvZ on Retro? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ SnOw's ASL S20 Finals Review BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1704 users

[Ramblings] Maps are hurting the game.

Blogs > Angel_
Post a Reply
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 20:12:35
June 08 2012 20:06 GMT
#1
Maps play a huge part in the development of a game. They're important in tournaments in regards to selection, and competition, and style of play giving advantages, and whether vetoes are used or not and what not...but I actually don't want to talk about any of that, and instead focus on what maps do to actual play when they're all the same.

Think about the map pool. Think about Shakuras Plateau. Simplify it. High ground main, ramp down to natural, both at map edge, ramp to open area, base wedged outside of main and natural, another base straight vertical, rest of the map is wide the fuck open. Unique feature, instead of completely open all the way through, the middle has walls that pinch it like an hour glass.

[image loading]

Now think of every single other map in use. How many maps CAN'T fit into that description? \

tal'darim? eh move the wedged optional third to a wall and it's the same map with a bigger middle and your natural gets sieged diagonally instead of vertically. There's a gap between the main and third instead of high ground so you get drop play in your main instead of drop play in your main. oh wait.

[image loading]

okay, maybe the issue is size then. so make a smaller map in your head. it automatically looks like itd be more of a strong two base map but it turns out that if you took that same idea of shakuras, only made two possible mains, and just split the map in half...youd have a narrow as shit, vertical or horizontal thing with your third on a wall like shakuras third, and your pocket possible third would have to move up because there's just not room unless we make it a long map...in which case we just made atlantis spaceship. if we stick with the idea of shorter map, well the area is still probably open or has a cute wall in the middle to try to give the illusion that it's not open..but it's a small as shit map so that little wall doesn't really matter...and we have ohana and dual sight.

And then we get to the point: so maps are kind of the same, what's the problem? THe problem is that the game has developed by the maps. We had walled off mains, we did one base play. We had non-walled off mains on extremely short maps we did one base play or bunkered/cannoned HARD and did one base play with 2 bases. We started macroing better and that two base play started to look more like proper two base play. Then we got thirds, and so on. All through this though, the actual space we play in has been this wide open garbage area to just throw units at eachother. Positioning only matters when we can force a player INTO that position, or when we are FORCED to think about our position (beyond, "Oh, what units go at the front?") because of the actual terrain.

What maps have actually attempted to deal with that to force different engagements? To make players develop beyond our "Hey I've got a deathball!" "Whoa me too!!!! Let's fight!!!" Very fucking few. Sure players have sort of done it on their own, in the way of, "Hey I'm gonna have really harrass based play", or "Hey I'm going to do something with blink to abuse this high ground low ground", or "hey I'm going to sit siege tanks at your third because it's RIGHT by your main and slowly march in from the side." That's all fine and good. That all should be looked at REGARDLESS of the map. But that's not what I'm talking about. Maps should be taken advantage of no matter what. The problem is that nothing in the map design disallows or encourages or has encouraged people to move away from massive deathballs.

Maybe Crossfire is okay to look at. Lots of weird middle space. No way to fit your whole army unless you put everything in big lines. Lots of different close attack paths that were still seperated. A few side angles to come from. BUT it was a small as shit map. But if you did commit to a fight you probably couldn't get away well because there was no location even AT your base to really get positioning. But it was an attempt.

I'd like to see more attempts actually get considered.

I don't think all maps needs to be maze-like terrible cluster-fucks (or any, for that matter), but I do think that the main reason people have been so focused on just macro-play, and just big-ball who has the better composition play, relying completely on their ability to remax or their opponents inability to remax, is that positioning can't really be used well right now, and positioning doesn't at all limit people from simply throwing weight at eachother in the mid and late-games.

Maybe more corridors, more high ground you CAN land units on, more high ground you CAN'T land units on (or fly air units over), more chokes, more round-about attack paths, maps that experiment with NO real middle, maps that experiment with lots of high and low ground (hills), maps that use towers better than "hey here's some vision of the middle," more grass, just...I don't know.

It's not just an issue of, "Ideally a tournament should have a ______ map, a ______ map, a _____ map, a ______ map, etc...It's that our current pools and trends of map design all cater to beanbag chair throwing, and it only limits the potential complexity and depth of play.

-
Also, obligatory: "Maps hurting the game is hurting the game, is hurting my game, which is hurting the game."

***
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
June 08 2012 21:18 GMT
#2
deathball syndrome is a function of the game, not the map. for the map, if you create far too choked terrain, the deathball becomes vastly overpowered because you can only attack the front of it. wide open maps allows the maximum area to attack the deathball. mapping involves finding a good balance between these. shakuras and taldarim are both appropriately sized maps.

many things contribute to the deathball syndrome in sc2 itself. time to max supply, frail nature of low number of units ... but its mostly the ease of control in the game. unlimited unit selection, ability to quickly tab through units for abilities. and overall lack of micro.

go ahead and write to blizzard to implement units that require a bit more than 1a to be effective.
starleague forever
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
June 08 2012 21:29 GMT
#3
On June 09 2012 06:18 a176 wrote:
deathball syndrome is a function of the game, not the map. for the map, if you create far too choked terrain, the deathball becomes vastly overpowered because you can only attack the front of it. wide open maps allows the maximum area to attack the deathball. mapping involves finding a good balance between these. shakuras and taldarim are both appropriately sized maps.

many things contribute to the deathball syndrome in sc2 itself. time to max supply, frail nature of low number of units ... but its mostly the ease of control in the game. unlimited unit selection, ability to quickly tab through units for abilities. and overall lack of micro.

go ahead and write to blizzard to implement units that require a bit more than 1a to be effective.


I don't disagree with you at all. And I'm not advocating for too choked maps, just encouraging more variation and experimentation. Also, maps, unlike everything else you've listed, are something we have at least a little bit of an ability to influence. All the others, are literally, "well you might as well write blizzard and see how that goes." We can change our maps a little bit.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 22:03:06
June 08 2012 22:01 GMT
#4
The only thing mappers can try to do, ala breadth of gameplay, is to slow the game down by controlling resource income and thusly production, forcing players to engage with smaller groups and expo more. having fewer-resource-bases is a common feature in many user maps now. but ...

unfortunately blizzard will never adopt this, in keeping strict control of their game. all user maps are converted to normal resource amounts, and some are modified to favor two base play. which is why people like me keep saying, complain to blizzard. not to mention the community is doing jack all to steer the game in another direction.

starleague forever
Alexj
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Ukraine440 Posts
June 08 2012 22:05 GMT
#5
You described why exactly many people consider The Cloud Kingdom to be the best SC2 map so far
More GGs, more skill
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 10m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 554
IndyStarCraft 120
UpATreeSC 95
Railgan 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26141
Rain 2843
Calm 2432
Dewaltoss 100
Leta 71
zelot 48
scan(afreeca) 42
yabsab 11
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps1386
fl0m847
ScreaM239
shoxiejesuss233
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu336
Other Games
FrodaN4019
Grubby1254
ceh9550
DeMusliM394
C9.Mang0120
ArmadaUGS112
Trikslyr56
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 12
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 10
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hinosc 28
• Reevou 5
• Dystopia_ 3
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 40
• FirePhoenix9
• Azhi_Dahaki8
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV580
League of Legends
• Nemesis4558
• TFBlade956
Other Games
• imaqtpie1082
• Shiphtur261
Upcoming Events
BSL: GosuLeague
1h 10m
PiGosaur Cup
5h 10m
The PondCast
14h 10m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
RSL Revival
1d 11h
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Reynor
Maru vs SHIN
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
BSL: GosuLeague
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
3 days
Julia vs Artosis
JDConan vs DragOn
RSL Revival
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
IPSL
5 days
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
Replay Cast
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-14
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.