• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 04:18
CET 10:18
KST 18:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down
Tourneys
SC2 INu's Battles#22 SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Starcraft 2 Advance [G] How to playtest arcade maps [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery Rollback Netcode in Brood War Sagi.gg Launcher Released BW General Discussion [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [$1250] International ShieldBattery League Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Playlenda
Playlendapro
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11267 users

[Ramblings] Maps are hurting the game.

Blogs > Angel_
Post a Reply
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 20:12:35
June 08 2012 20:06 GMT
#1
Maps play a huge part in the development of a game. They're important in tournaments in regards to selection, and competition, and style of play giving advantages, and whether vetoes are used or not and what not...but I actually don't want to talk about any of that, and instead focus on what maps do to actual play when they're all the same.

Think about the map pool. Think about Shakuras Plateau. Simplify it. High ground main, ramp down to natural, both at map edge, ramp to open area, base wedged outside of main and natural, another base straight vertical, rest of the map is wide the fuck open. Unique feature, instead of completely open all the way through, the middle has walls that pinch it like an hour glass.

[image loading]

Now think of every single other map in use. How many maps CAN'T fit into that description? \

tal'darim? eh move the wedged optional third to a wall and it's the same map with a bigger middle and your natural gets sieged diagonally instead of vertically. There's a gap between the main and third instead of high ground so you get drop play in your main instead of drop play in your main. oh wait.

[image loading]

okay, maybe the issue is size then. so make a smaller map in your head. it automatically looks like itd be more of a strong two base map but it turns out that if you took that same idea of shakuras, only made two possible mains, and just split the map in half...youd have a narrow as shit, vertical or horizontal thing with your third on a wall like shakuras third, and your pocket possible third would have to move up because there's just not room unless we make it a long map...in which case we just made atlantis spaceship. if we stick with the idea of shorter map, well the area is still probably open or has a cute wall in the middle to try to give the illusion that it's not open..but it's a small as shit map so that little wall doesn't really matter...and we have ohana and dual sight.

And then we get to the point: so maps are kind of the same, what's the problem? THe problem is that the game has developed by the maps. We had walled off mains, we did one base play. We had non-walled off mains on extremely short maps we did one base play or bunkered/cannoned HARD and did one base play with 2 bases. We started macroing better and that two base play started to look more like proper two base play. Then we got thirds, and so on. All through this though, the actual space we play in has been this wide open garbage area to just throw units at eachother. Positioning only matters when we can force a player INTO that position, or when we are FORCED to think about our position (beyond, "Oh, what units go at the front?") because of the actual terrain.

What maps have actually attempted to deal with that to force different engagements? To make players develop beyond our "Hey I've got a deathball!" "Whoa me too!!!! Let's fight!!!" Very fucking few. Sure players have sort of done it on their own, in the way of, "Hey I'm gonna have really harrass based play", or "Hey I'm going to do something with blink to abuse this high ground low ground", or "hey I'm going to sit siege tanks at your third because it's RIGHT by your main and slowly march in from the side." That's all fine and good. That all should be looked at REGARDLESS of the map. But that's not what I'm talking about. Maps should be taken advantage of no matter what. The problem is that nothing in the map design disallows or encourages or has encouraged people to move away from massive deathballs.

Maybe Crossfire is okay to look at. Lots of weird middle space. No way to fit your whole army unless you put everything in big lines. Lots of different close attack paths that were still seperated. A few side angles to come from. BUT it was a small as shit map. But if you did commit to a fight you probably couldn't get away well because there was no location even AT your base to really get positioning. But it was an attempt.

I'd like to see more attempts actually get considered.

I don't think all maps needs to be maze-like terrible cluster-fucks (or any, for that matter), but I do think that the main reason people have been so focused on just macro-play, and just big-ball who has the better composition play, relying completely on their ability to remax or their opponents inability to remax, is that positioning can't really be used well right now, and positioning doesn't at all limit people from simply throwing weight at eachother in the mid and late-games.

Maybe more corridors, more high ground you CAN land units on, more high ground you CAN'T land units on (or fly air units over), more chokes, more round-about attack paths, maps that experiment with NO real middle, maps that experiment with lots of high and low ground (hills), maps that use towers better than "hey here's some vision of the middle," more grass, just...I don't know.

It's not just an issue of, "Ideally a tournament should have a ______ map, a ______ map, a _____ map, a ______ map, etc...It's that our current pools and trends of map design all cater to beanbag chair throwing, and it only limits the potential complexity and depth of play.

-
Also, obligatory: "Maps hurting the game is hurting the game, is hurting my game, which is hurting the game."

***
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
June 08 2012 21:18 GMT
#2
deathball syndrome is a function of the game, not the map. for the map, if you create far too choked terrain, the deathball becomes vastly overpowered because you can only attack the front of it. wide open maps allows the maximum area to attack the deathball. mapping involves finding a good balance between these. shakuras and taldarim are both appropriately sized maps.

many things contribute to the deathball syndrome in sc2 itself. time to max supply, frail nature of low number of units ... but its mostly the ease of control in the game. unlimited unit selection, ability to quickly tab through units for abilities. and overall lack of micro.

go ahead and write to blizzard to implement units that require a bit more than 1a to be effective.
starleague forever
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
June 08 2012 21:29 GMT
#3
On June 09 2012 06:18 a176 wrote:
deathball syndrome is a function of the game, not the map. for the map, if you create far too choked terrain, the deathball becomes vastly overpowered because you can only attack the front of it. wide open maps allows the maximum area to attack the deathball. mapping involves finding a good balance between these. shakuras and taldarim are both appropriately sized maps.

many things contribute to the deathball syndrome in sc2 itself. time to max supply, frail nature of low number of units ... but its mostly the ease of control in the game. unlimited unit selection, ability to quickly tab through units for abilities. and overall lack of micro.

go ahead and write to blizzard to implement units that require a bit more than 1a to be effective.


I don't disagree with you at all. And I'm not advocating for too choked maps, just encouraging more variation and experimentation. Also, maps, unlike everything else you've listed, are something we have at least a little bit of an ability to influence. All the others, are literally, "well you might as well write blizzard and see how that goes." We can change our maps a little bit.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 22:03:06
June 08 2012 22:01 GMT
#4
The only thing mappers can try to do, ala breadth of gameplay, is to slow the game down by controlling resource income and thusly production, forcing players to engage with smaller groups and expo more. having fewer-resource-bases is a common feature in many user maps now. but ...

unfortunately blizzard will never adopt this, in keeping strict control of their game. all user maps are converted to normal resource amounts, and some are modified to favor two base play. which is why people like me keep saying, complain to blizzard. not to mention the community is doing jack all to steer the game in another direction.

starleague forever
Alexj
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Ukraine440 Posts
June 08 2012 22:05 GMT
#5
You described why exactly many people consider The Cloud Kingdom to be the best SC2 map so far
More GGs, more skill
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 43m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 221
ProTech141
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3075
Leta 386
Larva 322
actioN 214
Zeus 201
ZerO 104
Stork 101
Shine 76
Bale 61
910 51
[ Show more ]
Yoon 51
Shinee 36
Sharp 31
Free 27
Trap 22
Aegong 20
yabsab 12
HiyA 4
Dota 2
monkeys_forever132
League of Legends
JimRising 479
Counter-Strike
ceh9531
Other Games
summit1g11454
olofmeister346
XaKoH 321
Fuzer 167
Lowko91
KnowMe81
Sick69
NeuroSwarm64
Railgan12
ZerO(Twitch)2
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL88
[ Show 10 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 22
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt423
Upcoming Events
Ultimate Battle
2h 43m
Soma vs Royal
Replay Cast
13h 43m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d
WardiTV Invitational
1d 2h
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
OSC
1d 13h
ByuN vs MaxPax
herO vs Krystianer
Percival vs Shameless
LetaleX vs YoungYakov
Nicoract vs Gerald
GgMaChine vs ArT
PiGosaur Cup
1d 15h
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
5 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-06
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.