• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:49
CET 17:49
KST 01:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Clem wins HomeStory Cup 282HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2RSL Season 4 announced for March-April7Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win3Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview Clem wins HomeStory Cup 28 Stellar Fest "01" Jersey Charity Auction StarCraft 2 Not at the Esports World Cup 2026 Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win
Tourneys
HomeStory Cup 28 RSL Season 4 announced for March-April PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report
Brood War
General
Can someone share very abbreviated BW cliffnotes? 2024 BoxeR's birthday message Liquipedia.net NEEDS editors for Brood War BSL Season 21 - Complete Results Bleak Future After Failed ProGaming Career
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1 The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Path of Exile Mobile Legends: Bang Bang
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Quickbooks Payroll Service Official Guide Quickbooks Customer Service Official Guide
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Play, Watch, Drink: Esports …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1048 users

Ethics: Turning the Trolley - Page 2

Blogs > omgimonfire15
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
netherh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom333 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 13:59:22
May 02 2012 13:58 GMT
#21
On May 02 2012 10:00 omgimonfire15 wrote:
Show nested quote +
These aren't "interesting moral questions" at all.

They're highly contrived and unrealistic situations, in which your decision would be based on factors not present in the information provided.


Of course they are unrealistic, the point isn't to establish rules on what to do if these scenarios arise. They are an evaluation of one's morals and priorities. Do you think the needs of the many outweigh the few, even if the few are going to die? What if you personally kill them? Do you find the killing of someone worse than allowing them to die? Do you believe you are obligated to give your life for others or do you believe that you are entitled to your life?

As pointed out before, the concept of letting die vs killing can be related to euthanasia. Is withholding someones medicine the same as overdosing a patient on morphine? In one scenario you can argue you did not directly kill someone. In the other, you are actively taking someones life.



They're not an evaluation of morals or priorities, because they're so ridiculously contrived. The following is pretty much how your examples go:

You own a gun.

No... I don't.

You decide to kill some people with it.

What? No. I would never own a gun, or kill people with it.

Do you want to kill 1 person, or 5 people?

What? This just... No.

Ok. How about this? Do you want to kill 5 people over here, or 5 people over there?

...


Your last paragraph contains slightly more realistic examples. But you still don't actually give enough information to decide anything. Is the person withholding medicine / od-ing a doctor? Are they acting on the patient's wishes or not?

Obviously if it's your job to treat a patient (and perhaps also if not), and you "withhold medicine" that could help them, and that they want, you're culpable for their death. If the patient decides to stop receiving medicine, it's their choice, not yours. This can't really be compared to the second example at all.

In the second example, are you acting on their wishes, and have they considered every option? If so, then I would argue that it's their choice to die. It's your choice whether you help them die or not - which is a matter of deciding how that will affect you, and has very little to do with the person dying.

As for the people's choices, and how society will judge them, that's all specific to the individual circumstances - which makes it silly to use examples like this in the first place. I'm sure there are real examples (and probably court cases) that could be used instead.
PassionFruit
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
294 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 14:08:38
May 02 2012 14:07 GMT
#22
I believe it's called a thought experiment. It's not supposed to be realistic. It's intended to hold ALL other factors constant except for the crux of the ethical question at hand. On the trolley problem you know 100% the outcome of your decision, you only have two choices, and all people have equal value. Is this realistic? No. But that shouldn't be a problem in discussing the ethical dilemma. Actually, it gives you a more concrete foundation for argument since you can't weasel your way around the issue by saying "what if" or "maybe."
adun12345
Profile Joined May 2011
United States198 Posts
May 02 2012 20:12 GMT
#23
I think PassionFruit hits on a major point why many people have difficulty with ethical thought experiments. As PassionFruit notes, the purpose of the thought experiment is to provide the participants with all of the relevant information to make their choice. This helps us move past all of the irrelevant details that might be involved in the case, to see how the relevant factors impact our decisions.

The problem emerges, however, when we attempt to determine what constitutes "relevant" information for making an ethical choice. At the start of any thought experiment, the person framing the experiment must determine what information is to be conveyed as relevant. By determining what information is relevant and what is not, the person constructing the thought experiment inevitably prejudices the outcome of the experiment. Although a well-constructed thought experiment can still yield interesting results, as an abstraction of reality it will always at least partially reflect the subjective influence of the abstract-er who proposed the experiment.
QueenElissa
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Canada33 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 20:40:00
May 02 2012 20:39 GMT
#24
I sort of see it in this way... If you have 5 person that needs organs, one a liver, one a heart etc.., would you kill a healthy human being because you have 5 person that will die unless the each have one of his organ..?

I wouden't kill him...
Not here for the Fame, Just for the Game!!
SaintBadger
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States139 Posts
May 02 2012 20:45 GMT
#25
I think I missed something here. What's the significance of the split between the choices "kill self" and "kill yourself"?
netherh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom333 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 21:39:14
May 02 2012 21:31 GMT
#26
On May 02 2012 23:07 PassionFruit wrote:
I believe it's called a thought experiment. It's not supposed to be realistic. It's intended to hold ALL other factors constant except for the crux of the ethical question at hand. On the trolley problem you know 100% the outcome of your decision, you only have two choices, and all people have equal value. Is this realistic? No. But that shouldn't be a problem in discussing the ethical dilemma. Actually, it gives you a more concrete foundation for argument since you can't weasel your way around the issue by saying "what if" or "maybe."


Why shouldn't lack of realism be a problem with discussing the "ethical dilemma"? If detail is fundamental in making a decision, then you should include it.

I know I would have a vast number of questions about the trolley scenario before I could make an actual decision. And I bet the answers would generally be "that doesn't matter", or "it just is, ok", when to me it obviously does matter. If you want someone to make an informed decision give them the damn details instead of hiding behind some "thought experiment" in which you pretend that all other things are equal.
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
12:00
Playoffs
Classic vs CureLIVE!
MaxPax vs TBD
WardiTV1388
IndyStarCraft 281
Rex125
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 281
Rex 125
BRAT_OK 49
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 40743
Sea 2578
Bisu 2294
Rain 1511
Shuttle 842
Jaedong 829
Hyuk 632
Larva 625
Soma 452
Stork 408
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 220
firebathero 164
Rush 153
actioN 140
Mini 135
Dewaltoss 126
Snow 64
Sharp 60
Hyun 59
Backho 51
Aegong 41
NotJumperer 40
sorry 39
Mind 37
zelot 30
JYJ 27
sSak 24
910 21
Yoon 20
GoRush 18
IntoTheRainbow 16
Free 15
Terrorterran 10
Dota 2
singsing2944
qojqva2191
Dendi618
XcaliburYe76
Counter-Strike
fl0m1354
byalli387
oskar139
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King253
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor229
MindelVK20
Other Games
FrodaN1240
B2W.Neo1231
hiko828
DeMusliM437
ceh9324
crisheroes212
Trikslyr46
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix10
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade1828
• Stunt701
• Shiphtur226
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 11m
RongYI Cup
1d 18h
herO vs Maru
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-04
HSC XXVIII
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W7
Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.