• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:42
CEST 14:42
KST 21:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments Who will win EWC 2025? Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Soulkey Muta Micro Map? BW General Discussion [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 713 users

Negativity in SC2 and Personal Progress

Blogs > lwwkicker
Post a Reply
lwwkicker
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States140 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-05 02:07:34
April 05 2012 02:05 GMT
#1
First blog here, and I already don't really know what to title it. Good start.

I guess I will just begin with the first part of the title. One thing I have been pondering recently is: What is 'good' in SC2? It seems like every time I see some Masters player refer to himself (or herself), I hear the often used phrase, "I'm Masters, but I am terrible." Now, I know it's all relative, obviously, but who are they comparing themselves to? The pros? I feel like that is just plain silly. That's like me playing indoor soccer and saying that I am terrible because I can't compete with Oliver Khan. He would utterly demolish me by comparison, but I would never say that I suck at soccer (specifically goalkeeping). I could have played for college, easily, but I chose to just focus on school alone. That is beside the point.

I feel like that negative attitude isn't getting people anywhere, and all I get from it is some sort of fake self-deprecation or unwarranted negativity. If you are masters, you are - by default - pretty damn good. Masters is like doing well at a college sport (in a school that takes sports seriously). No, you probably aren't going to get recruited, or get an NBA/NFL/MLS contract, but who cares. You are good.

The way I view it is, if I am improving, then I am doing pretty well. I don't look at myself in that oh-so-common negative light that all these 'scrub' Masters players do. I don't care if I were Gold, as long as I am getting better with each game and slowly improving my MMR / facing more skilled opponents. Everyone has weaknesses and areas they need to improve, even the pros. Not having the best macro in the world doesn't necessarily mean that you are 'omg, so fucking bad.'

This brings me to the next point I wanted to make. High level players are way too ridiculously hard on people who aren't at least mid-Masters. Players judge other players waaaay to much on one's rank; it's kind of silly. Now, let me interject and let people know that I am not some bronze/silver kid crying about being picked on; far from it. I would tell you my 'rank', but that would mess up what I want to do later on in this blog. Anyway, I feel like part of this is just the separation between leagues. What I mean is, mid-Masters players never really see players who are Diamond and below actually play. At the very least, they don't get a representative sample of the skill that exists in that bracket. And, another part of it is just the typical epeen measuring system. "I'm am higher rank than you, therefore you are a scrub that can't macro, and I will crush your soulllll." I feel like it's a bit extreme, and I think we need to ease up a little. That's just me though.

Lastly, I wanted to do a little experiment. This is the reason that I didn't tell you my actual rank. Attached I have a replay pack (hopefully the upload worked) of my own play. Some ladder, some customs (Daybreak, specifically). I want you, my dear audience, to glance over them and tell me what you think my rank is, based solely on my play (no cheating please!). There is no real bias in these replays either. It is just the last 9 games I have played today.

http://drop.sc/packs/819

Edit: Shit, forgot the link, haha.



This spoiler is my rank. Yet again, no cheating please!
+ Show Spoiler +
Rank 1 Platinum. I do, however, play Diamond people almost all the time now. And my record for the season is pretty good, if you ask me.

So far, I am 44 - 25.


Some extra info (read after you make up your mind):
+ Show Spoiler +
So, I think my record is pretty solid, and I have been crushing recently. Out of my last 32 games (30 ladder, 2 custom), my record is 24-8. I definitely feel like I am of Diamond skill, but the ladder lock is preventing me from getting a promotion. For reference, I have like 100 more points than second place in my division (I have 700ish, I think).

For those who are remotely interested, here is my Battle.net profile:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/293061/1/Verum/

Also, the opponent I played on the last two games I attached (both of the Daybreak ones) asked me my max rank after our two games. He was shocked to hear what I was, and told me that I play like a Masters. Flattering, I know, but how accurate do you think that is? I think he may be exaggerating a little, but I did kinda crush him both games. For reference, he says he is 'mid/high' Diamond, and he was C+ in ICCUP in BW.


If you made it this far (and especially if you took time to watch some reps or post feedback) I graciously thank you.

***
Always here to help.
inReacH
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Sweden1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-05 02:30:59
April 05 2012 02:19 GMT
#2
They could mean compared to their potential or to human potential.

Above average doesn't mean you are good at something.

For example, I invent a sport, I practice for 3 months and am the best in the world at it. Then I teach my friends and train them for a week. They would consider me good but I'd still know I'm bad because 3 months at anything will never get you close to your potential.

It's really just a short way of saying I am still learning and make big mistakes every game.

Now when people start saying they are bad after playing like this


all game, then I will agree with you.

Basically, it's all about where you are at compared to what you expect/hope for yourself. Which I think is a more elegant and important measuring stick.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-05 02:26:34
April 05 2012 02:26 GMT
#3
You suck.

I think esports is pretty nice.
lwwkicker
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States140 Posts
April 05 2012 02:30 GMT
#4
On April 05 2012 11:26 Saechiis wrote:
You suck.



Aww, c'mon, gimme something more than that, lol.
Always here to help.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
April 05 2012 02:31 GMT
#5
I agree in general that people spend too much time comparing themselves to the very best, and for the most part it isn't a good mindset to have. There are a select few that it probably helps (ie other pros who focus only on what they can be doing better) but if you're just playing for fun and to get better, the much healthier outlook to have is looking at where you have come from and how far you've made it.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
April 05 2012 02:31 GMT
#6
I find that the better I get at this game, the more I realize that I really suck.
Life's good :D
lwwkicker
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States140 Posts
April 05 2012 02:35 GMT
#7
On April 05 2012 11:19 inReacH wrote:
They could mean compared to their potential or to human potential.

Above average doesn't mean you are good at something.

For example, I invent a sport, I practice for 3 months and am the best in the world at it. Then I teach my friends and train them for a week. They would consider me good but I'd still know I'm bad because 3 months at anything will never get you close to your potential.

It's really just a short way of saying I am still learning and make big mistakes every game.

Now when people start saying they are bad after playing like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAfBWrVyMM

all game, then I will agree with you.

Basically, it's all about where you are at compared to what you expect/hope for yourself. Which I think is a more elegant and important measuring stick.


But my exact point is, why are we (non-pros) comparing ourselves to them? You don't need to be that good to 'not suck'. I feel like the whole thing is overly negative.

Also, as far as that 'making up your own sport thing', I would say that (in your example) I am the best in the world. Granted, I may suck at the new sport compared to my potential, but I am the best. At the very least, I am pretty good. Why does it have to be viewed in the negative way? I am the best in the world, I may have many things to improve on, but why view it so negatively? That is my whole point.
Always here to help.
inReacH
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Sweden1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-05 02:39:04
April 05 2012 02:37 GMT
#8
Maybe you misunderstood.. we aren't comparing ourselves to pros, we're comparing ourselves to where we want to be.

Watching pros just shows us the possibilities.... if a player wants to emulate them and spends hours trying and fails.. of course he will say he is bad.

The alternative is settling and that means becoming a casual player essentially.
lwwkicker
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States140 Posts
April 05 2012 02:38 GMT
#9
On April 05 2012 11:31 MaV_gGSC wrote:
I find that the better I get at this game, the more I realize that I really suck.


I, on the other hand, find that as I get better and better, I realize how much I have learned and how much I have progressed. At the same time, however, I know more and more things to improve on, but, by default, I am getting better (and do not 'suck' in the way it is commonly used).
Always here to help.
nanoscorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1237 Posts
April 05 2012 03:55 GMT
#10
In some ways I agree with you, Master league is "pretty good." I think the self-deprecation is true as well though. Basically, I think the SC2 ladder is a good example of knowledge revealing flaws. The more you know, the more you realize how little you know. There are mechanics to consider as well, but I think overall game knowledge rises exponentially as one climbs the ladder. Timings, map-specific knowledge, builds and transitions, the current matchup metagame, even opponent-specific scouting is all something a pro will have, a GM/top master probably has a good amount of, but from there on down the ladder, people are sorely lacking in many areas.

The way I view it is, if I am improving, then I am doing pretty well.
So this is the key point. I think admitting that you have room for improvement is where you agree with most folks on the boards here. Some people phrase this more harshly than others, but the idea is, you know there are a hundred things you can do better. So, in some sense, if you can improve and want to, you're not as good as you'd like to be. I think it's dangerous to sit back and go, "Yeah, I'm pretty good." Because at that point, you risk losing the drive to improve. Think of the folks going, "I'm masters and I suck" as people still striving to improve and it might make more sense?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
April 05 2012 06:21 GMT
#11
On April 05 2012 11:31 MaV_gGSC wrote:
I find that the better I get at this game, the more I realize that I really suck.


This applies to most things in life. Accepting this is the first step.
shikata ga nai
how
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States538 Posts
April 05 2012 09:17 GMT
#12
On April 05 2012 15:21 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2012 11:31 MaV_gGSC wrote:
I find that the better I get at this game, the more I realize that I really suck.


This applies to most things in life. Accepting this is the first step.


Yup, people that are masters say they suck because they have an idea of how much better they COULD be playing
http://twitter.com/howsc
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #98
Jumy vs ShamelessLIVE!
CranKy Ducklings252
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 22285
Barracks 2045
Shuttle 2036
EffOrt 921
Mini 889
BeSt 623
actioN 568
Larva 519
firebathero 437
Soma 316
[ Show more ]
Last 250
Dewaltoss 171
Hyun 153
Leta 128
ToSsGirL 99
Mind 74
sorry 68
Sharp 42
Sacsri 40
PianO 37
Shinee 36
Backho 31
JulyZerg 30
Yoon 20
ajuk12(nOOB) 10
Hm[arnc] 9
Shine 6
ivOry 5
Zeus 0
Dota 2
XcaliburYe845
syndereN270
canceldota228
Counter-Strike
x6flipin629
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor313
Other Games
B2W.Neo1545
SortOf221
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2810
StarCraft: Brood War
CasterMuse 30
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH257
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV613
• lizZardDota2284
• Ler108
League of Legends
• Jankos1400
Upcoming Events
Online Event
3h 18m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
5h 18m
Esports World Cup
1d 21h
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
Esports World Cup
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Calamity Cup Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.