I wrote this massive post on my stream thread and decided it would probably do better as a blog. Its nothing earth shatteringly important (and its a bit of a boring subject perhaps) but I thought I'd share it anyway.
I don't know if any1 is familiar with UK internet, but basically its in a shite state of affairs, a bit of an embarassment compared to our neighboring countries whilst being incredibly over-priced to boot. I have 2 options available to me:
Virgin Media - "Up to" 100Mb download, 10Mb upload
'BT Infinity', a 40/4 Fiber Optic service is being rolled out across the country with there being a list showing when it arrives in your area. The list covers 'till the end of 2013 and my area isn't even on the list. So basically I have no real choice, its 90s technology copper phone line ADSL, or Virgin Media. 40/4 for Fiber Optic is also a joke btw. The reason its so slow is because they only bring the Fiber Optic cable to the 'cabinet' on street corners and then from there individual houses are connected through those same crappy old copper phone wires.
I couldn't care less about 100Mb download, I'd much prefer a more balanced connection such as 50/20 or something, but the 10Mb upload speed was important to me. The main selling point however was the "unlimited" aspect of this expensive 100Mb package. This meant I could stream (and watch streams, download Steam games etc.) without worrying about my internet suddenly being crippled due to some 'Traffic Management' "fair use" policy. I'm not the type to sit and file share 24/7, I think those people are scum and are clearly abusing the system, but I don't want to be worrying about my daily MB downloaded and so on.
FASTER INTERNET FOR ALL ZOMG
The reason I've not been streaming recently is because Virgin Media (VM) have been doing work on the internet. They have been working on doubling the speed "for free" for all users on packages below 100Mb (100Mb customers are meant to get a tiny price cut). This has been a big PR drive with an advertising campaign featuring Usain Bolt:
You would think that in order to accomodate this speed increase they might be upgrading their infrastructure, purchasing increased bandwidth from Linx etc. Nope. Basically what they've done is snuck in a nasty little 'Traffic Management' policy on the quiet alongside this speed doubling charade:
(click the thumbnail for the full picture)
What does it mean?
Basically what they've done is expanded their 'Subscriber Traffic Management' (STM) policy to also affect 50Mb and 100Mb customers, customers on their 2 most expensive packages. Basically what this does is massively slows down your internet once you reach a "fair use" threshold for upload and/or download. One of the main (advertised) selling points of these top-of-the-line packages was their freedom from STM. Now a quick glance at the chart will show you how unrealistic and restrictive the 'Fair use cap' limits are for upstream and downstream. Basically for my 100Mb package:
After downloading 10GB the download is reduced 50% (to 50Mb at best) for 5 hours
After uploading 12GB the upload is reduced 75% (to 2.5Mb at best) for 5 hours
The last game I purchased through Steam was 17Gb and took roughly 20minutes to download. People have worked out that it will take 13 minutes to download 10GB on the 100Mb package, at which point the speed will be halved for 5 hours (lol). So basically it isn't really 100Mb, its 100Mb for 13 minutes and then its 50.
***NOT 100% sure about the maths, need to take a proper look at it later ***
The upload is of more concern to me as someone who streams. My stream bitrate is ~2.5k. I'm not entirely sure what the average bitrate of my stream is (I wasn't concerned about it because I was on an 'unlimited' package F**K). I calculated that if my average bitrate was 3000, that I would get 500 minutes of streaming before hitting the 12GB cap. I think 3000 is quite conservative for a 720p stream with 2.5k bitrate, its far more likely to be nearer 4000 taking into account SC2, Skype etc. giving closer to 5hours of streaming time. After reaching the cap my upload will be cut to 2.5Mb at best. This isn't really adequate bandwidth for running a 720p stream whilst playing SC2 and being on Skype. 1080p is of course completely out the window as well.
This was an unannounced change that they basically shuffled through the back door whilst distracting us with the 'double speed' marketing. I didn't even get a letter/email/phonecall explaining it, I found out by trawling through the VM forums.
My stream, my contract with VM, my alternatives?
As far as streaming goes I'm going to have to just try streaming one day and monitor my upstream, look at my average stream bitrate and find out how long it takes me to hit the "fair use" cap. I estimated a couple of hours is what I'll get before having to worry about the cap, but I'm not sure yet. Either I have to hope that my average bandwidth usage is lower than 2.5Mbps so I can continue streaming after the cap kicks in, or that my usage is actually lower than expected such that I get many hours of stream time without hitting the cap. A third option is trying to stream at stupid hours (like when I wake up in the morning *yawn*). I guess the next step is to try streaming and see how long I last before hitting the cap, and then seeing if its playable while capped...
I recently signed an 18 month contract with VM. There may be some wiggle room to get out of it at the moment but the problem is, what are my alternatives? As stated earlier just ADSL with terrible upload where 720p streaming isn't even possible in the first place. So no real alternatives. This is one of the main problems with UK internet, the lack of competition. There is basically 2 providers; BT and Virgin Media. Lots of companies lease the BT line and sell their own packages but its still basically BT, just with worse customer service because you're going through a middle man rather than dealing with BT directly.
On the continent
I speak to people from Sweden etc. and they just roll around laughing at these stories about UK internet. The idea of a 10:1 Download:Upload rate is alien to them, as is this 'Traffic Management'. Most of them have been on a 100/100 package since something insane like 2005. 100/10 is the 'UKs Fastest Broadband' and it costs me £39.50 a month...
How is the internet in your country? What is the fastest package?
How many ISPs are there, is there competition? I have basically no alternative to VM.
How expensive is your internet package?
Do you have usage limits? Are they fair?
Upload being 1/10th of the Download rate, have you ever heard of that nonesense?
Apologies if I got my bits and bytes mixed up at any point during that The "first world problems" meme also sprang to mind but I don't like being scammed and I thought it was pretty shady the way they gave with one hand and took with the otther, a common VM practice.
•After downloading 10GB the download is reduced 50% (to 50Mb at best) for 5 hours
•After uploading 12GB the upload is reduced 75% (to 2.5Mb at best) for 5 hours
I want to be clear, I have absolutely no use for telecom companies who use these data slow down deals, I think they are dishonest and and bad business. But come on! Are you seriously complaining about 50Mb/s down? Really?
You have no idea how lucky you are. Here in the US midwest, for like $30-$40 a month we are lucky to get 3Mb down. I would KILL to have 50MB down for that price. I'm guessing people in othe rparts of the world are probably even worse off. I know the argument you are trying to make here, and I understand. But complaining about 50MB down is entirely rediculous. By the rest of the world's standards that mind numbingly fast.
The last game I purchased through Steam was 17Gb and took roughly 20minutes to download. People have worked out that it will take 13 minutes to download 10GB on the 100Mb package, at which point the speed will be halved for 5 hours (lol). So basically it isn't really 100Mb, its 100Mb for 13 minutes and then its 50.
20 whole minutes! How can you possibly survive? -.- It takes me like 10 hours to download a game from steam.
I'm not complaining about 50Mb download being slow, personally I think 100Mb download is pointless, its not really needed. What I'm complaining about is the fact that they're advertising and selling a 100Mb 'unlimited' package which costs a SHITLOAD of money per month, but actually after you download for 13minutes you get reduced to 50Mb for the next 5 hours. Its not Virgin Media 100Mb Broadband, its Virgin Media '100Mb for 13minutes Broadband'. I'm taking issue with the deception taking place, and the cheek of them to double people's speed (not 100Mb customers) "for free" when actually theres a huge cost, the highest paying customers are basically getting their internet crippled by Traffic Management to cover the difference.
The upload capping is what is the biggest issue to me as a streamer. 10Mb upload isn't exactly stellar to begin with, but its enough for me to stream in 720p with 6Mbps to spare. Suddenly when the ridiculous 75% STM kicks in my upload is cut so drastically that I can no longer stream in 720p at all. I know some places have it worse (lots have it better) but they're basically selling a service they can't support, its all a big scam in my eyes. They are agressively marketing the 100Mb package as being the fastest internet in the UK, but I don't think its fair when the 100Mb service is a myth, 13 minutes of downloading is enough to get you reduced to 50Mb...
I'm in Round Rock, Texas. Home of Dell, outside Austin, which caters quite a bit to big tech businesses. I'm paying something like $30/month for 15/2. And that's a pretty awesome deal in most of the US.
Yes, it sucks when they pull trickery like you're talking about, but you're NOT suffering.
I guess Germany is somewhat in the mid field when it comes to internet. It used to be excellent a couple of years ago compared to the rest of the world, but has slowly been falling behind as there is really not much happening in terms of speed.
The gold standard in Germany is ADSL2 with 16mbit down and 2 (?) mbit up. That is available in almost all somewhat populated areas, and from a variety of ISPs. There are 4 major national DSL vendors, and many local ones. On top of that there is a myriad of resellers both local and national who rent the lines of the others. Standard price is 19.99 Euro a month for a flat rate, no traffic limit.
Then there is cable, which is very dependent on where you live in terms of availability and speed. Major population centers have offer anything from 10/1 up to 100/25 at prices between 20 and 50 a month. You need cable at your house though which isn't as common as it is in the US for example.
There are specialized, local ISPs that offer synchronous or just custom DSL where you can pick your up/down profile yourself - however that can easiliy cost you 200 a month.
Recently, in selected areas, they started selling DSL over fiber, where optic cables have been layed in the 90s. I don't know the exact pricing, but it should be 100 easily on the speed side.
Then there are various premium DSL offers by the major ISPs, also very limited to location that offer between 25 and 50 mbit. However they are also locked into up/down profiles, usually 10:1 down:up speed.
What is really infuriating about the situation here is that for most places the physical cables would be able to carry much more than what they offer you. Market leader Telekom is notorious for this. They basically arbitrary assign a speed profile to you before you even order based on your location. In the vast majority of cases, if you do a speed test with a decent DSL modem you will see that your connection could be way faster, sometimes several multitudes of what your ISP is giving you. All it would take for them is assign you a better profile based on the actual speed test - but they seem to be immune to complaints about this.
On April 04 2012 00:25 JingleHell wrote: I'm in Round Rock, Texas. Home of Dell, outside Austin, which caters quite a bit to big tech businesses. I'm paying something like $30/month for 15/2. And that's a pretty awesome deal in most of the US.
Yes, it sucks when they pull trickery like you're talking about, but you're NOT suffering.
I've seen some amazing numbers from Americans, linking a speedtest.net result showing like 100/50 and asking "is this fast enough for streaming" -.- Its a big country and I guess it varies a lot. I'm paying £39.50/month for 100/10 which becomes 50/2.5 after 13 minutes usage. Being in europe I guess I get to hear about the Nordic people all the time. With their 100/100 connections, and the Dutch with 1000/100. I remember playing against 2 ping Swedes in Counter-Strike a good 6 or 7 years ago. They've been so far ahead for such a long time...
I should also mention that Virgin have oversold heavily in some areas to the point where the internet is unusable. In Milton Keynes for example (a fairly big city in England) they have been getting less than 1Mb download on their 100Mb packages all day long dating back as early as 2010 yet VM continue to accept new customers and advertise agressively, in addition to pulling stunts like this free speed doubling, which has only made matters worse of course. I guess I'm most dissatisfied with their business practises and the monopoly they have allowing them to get away with such shoddy service.
What is really infuriating about the situation here is that for most places the physical cables would be able to carry much more than what they offer you. Market leader Telekom is notorious for this. They basically arbitrary assign a speed profile to you before you even order based on your location. In the vast majority of cases, if you do a speed test with a decent DSL modem you will see that your connection could be way faster, sometimes several multitudes of what your ISP is giving you. All it would take for them is assign you a better profile based on the actual speed test - but they seem to be immune to complaints about this.
Do they not have much competition then if they can get away with stuff like that? We have a lot of ADSL resellers too but they're just using the BT lines. The lack of competition lets UK ISPs get away with silly stuff too. A funny example is advertising super fast Fibre Optic broadband but only cabling as far as street corners etc. then splitting the signal and sending it to each house through archaic copper cables. The result is most certainly not a Fibre Optic speed, nothing like a proper FTTH/P Fibre Optic installation. Is that 'Telekom' you speak of the same ones that sponsored a Tour De France team btw? with Jans Ullrich!
Also do you know if there is any kind of 'Traffic Management' on those 100/25 connections in major population centers. The idea of being able to pick your own up/down profile (at a steep cost) is also appealing to me. I don't give a damn about my download being cut from 100 down to 50 but the upload is more important to me.
Competition is decent in Germany, but has one big disadvantage that hurts the entire business: The majority of the residential lines, the "dirty last mile" are owned by former monopolist Deutsche Telekom (Team Telekom, yes). So all the rest have to rent that last mile from Telekom, which puts them into a position to continuously hurt and slow down the competition.
Where there truly is competition (cable, fiber, LTE) Telekom is very quick to offer you faster speeds that are suddenly magically available on your old copper wires.
The problem is the situation has been like this for years, and there is no real progress. The available speed and prices where decent compared to other countries 5-7 years ago - but since then virtually nothing has changed. Availablity outside of major cities got a lot better, but we are getting the same basic offers in major cities we did 5 years ago. At the same time the rest of Europe and the world really went forward with Internet infrastructure.
Edit: No, there is virtually no traffic management, and all data plans are flat rate unlimited.
On April 04 2012 00:25 JingleHell wrote: I'm in Round Rock, Texas. Home of Dell, outside Austin, which caters quite a bit to big tech businesses
I live near a big business park myself (just outside Glasgow) and they seem to have no interest in bringing Fibre Optic here. Small hamlets 5 miles down the road with a population of 2 are getting it but not here. Its pretty odd. I can only assume that Virgin Media have such a massive monopoly here that its not worth their time. I wonder what kind of net the Dell offices has.
I have 15/15 Mbit which is always 100 % consistent, yet I think it's insanely slow. I have friends paying way less than you, and they got 1/1 Gbit internet .
Like, 30 british pound, if you look directly, and then take into account that Denmark has the highest retail prices in the world(due to also having highest salaries in the world ofc)
Canada has only 3 major telecom providers and everyone else works off of their networks. Until very recently all major foreign investment in the telecom industry was blocked. We pay $45/month for a pretty basic cell phone plan up here. My internet is $40/month for 10/2 or 5/1 (I'm not at home so I'm not certain).
On April 04 2012 00:25 JingleHell wrote: I'm in Round Rock, Texas. Home of Dell, outside Austin, which caters quite a bit to big tech businesses. I'm paying something like $30/month for 15/2. And that's a pretty awesome deal in most of the US.
Yes, it sucks when they pull trickery like you're talking about, but you're NOT suffering.
I've seen some amazing numbers from Americans, linking a speedtest.net result showing like 100/50 and asking "is this fast enough for streaming" -.- Its a big country and I guess it varies a lot. I'm paying £39.50/month for 100/10 which becomes 50/2.5 after 13 minutes usage. Being in europe I guess I get to hear about the Nordic people all the time. With their 100/100 connections, and the Dutch with 1000/100. I remember playing against 2 ping Swedes in Counter-Strike a good 6 or 7 years ago. They've been so far ahead for such a long time...
I should also mention that Virgin have oversold heavily in some areas to the point where the internet is unusable. In Milton Keynes for example (a fairly big city in England) they have been getting less than 1Mb download on their 100Mb packages all day long dating back as early as 2010 yet VM continue to accept new customers and advertise agressively, in addition to pulling stunts like this free speed doubling, which has only made matters worse of course. I guess I'm most dissatisfied with their business practises and the monopoly they have allowing them to get away with such shoddy service.
Here in dutchland we all have 1000/100. I'm so sorry for you people in the rest of the world. not beiing able to open every single stream on TL at the same time must really suck for you. But then again, you probably don't have enough monitors for it, like we do.
On a more serious note, maybe some people have a 1000/100 connection, but the average connection still lies around 25/2.5 around here I guess. I can't say I know it exactly, but thats what we have. Also we haven't had caps anymore since the early 2000's so I guess thats nice.
Right now I have the fastest option provided by our current ISP, 2.5/.35, Which I think runs $30-40 per month. Fun, right? Well, I can at least usually watch 480p, assuming nobody else in my house uses internet.
On April 04 2012 01:37 Shai wrote: Canada has only 3 major telecom providers and everyone else works off of their networks. Until very recently all major foreign investment in the telecom industry was blocked. We pay $45/month for a pretty basic cell phone plan up here. My internet is $40/month for 10/2 or 5/1 (I'm not at home so I'm not certain).
yea fuck canada, I'm paying $55 or something a month for 20/5
On April 04 2012 07:12 lifeisgood99 wrote: I agree with my fellow Canadians. You don't know what shitty internet is.
QFMFT. I get 28 down 1 Up, and this is like one of the higher-end packages with Rogers. 1 Up is like almost the best you can get around here too; it's ridiculous. Not to mention bandwidth caps, so if you want to download anything of halfway decent size you have to go with one of the lesser providers (iffy on their reliability imo) or pay overage charges constantly. No streaming at 1080p for me....
Australia is kinda boned. being that we are such a large country with a whole lot of nothing in it & so far from everyone else. We have one main carrier & its mostly copper cables. We have other providers that rent cables from Telstra (i believe)
On a good day i get 5M download and 1M upload & i'm in Sydney (major city, not some backwater) Other members of my family who live in other cities get 1M download and 500kb/s upload...
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.virginmedia.com/images/table_30mb_800px2.jpg)
The "first world problems" meme also sprang to mind but I don't like being scammed and I thought it was pretty shady the way they gave with one hand and took with the otther, a common VM practice.
