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Hey there,
once again I'm sitting at a nightshift and at night there's next to nothing to do so I guess why not help fellow Teamliquidians. I am a high master Terran (unfortunately not grandmaster right now) on Europe with 1100~ points on my smurf account.
My main account seems to be cursed and isn't played as much, but thats another story. So I usually prefer macro style even though I do play quiet some cheese when I'm on tilt. I don't claim to be on european top level, but I can give quiet a lot of players a good run for their money.
So.. here I am, having time to kill and its yours to take advantage of. If you are Terran - no matter the league or question, go ask it and I can hook you up or will at least try. I will try to explain as much as possible and in depth if possible.
I have my laptop with me, so I could even join battle.net (EU only that is) and watch a game / observe to coach. If you are Protoss / Zerg I really can't help you out in specifics or build orders / timings, but I could give general advice
Go ahead, kind regards
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I'm a Protoss player - so I don't know if you can answer this or not. But what should I be looking for when I scout a Terran around the 7-8 minute mark to either 1) indicate that its safe to go double forge or 2) indicate that its not safe to go double forge.
I, almost always, go 1-gate FE and then add on 2 more gates and a Robo. I like to go double forge after this but I usually die any push that hits around the 10-12 minute mark. So if you could tell me what I should be looking for as far as scouting a T when going double forge - that indicates some heavy pressure and I should change my build, it would be greatly appreciated. If not, no problem 
Thanks
EDIT :: Assuming the Terran in on 2 base. Obviously if he's on 1 base by the 8 minute mark, its an all-in incoming. I'm having trouble reading a 2-base Terran at 7-9 minute mark
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On March 21 2012 08:45 mahi29 wrote:
I'm a Protoss player - so I don't know if you can answer this or not. But what should I be looking for when I scout a Terran around the 7-8 minute mark to either 1) indicate that its safe to go double forge or 2) indicate that its not safe to go double forge.
if he has a big ass 1-1-1 army walking to your base, its probably not safe to go double forge. if he is making a cc at his expo, its probably okay to double forge.
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im GM terran NA... how the fuck i beat Protoss on maps like entombed?
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hey NarutO, I'm a Low/Mid Master at this stage on NA.
I just have a few questions regarding TvT:
I usually opt for a Marine-Tank play, except if my opponent goes mech, then I transition into Bio asap.
My problem is that I don't really understand how to play Marine Tank vs Marine Tank.
It revolves around me being unsure of when to be defensive or offensive.
When am i supposed to push out with my army assuming me and my opponent are sitting about even? Is it based on upgrade timings?
When is it viable for me to go for a drop; both harassment style or doom?
Is it cool to spam sensor towers or should i just put up turrets and be done with it?
Are you supposed to get Stim before Combat Shields or vice versa?
What's the correct method of engagement when your armies do eventually meet?
Also, what build do you recommend for a Marine Tank style play?
I open Reactor'd Rax Expand, into Fact and Port, but I've seen naked Rax FE into +2 Rax double gas much more often both on ladder and on streams.
I realize this ended up being a lot of questions;; even just a few answered would be really appreciated.
Thanks for your offer and time.
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On March 21 2012 08:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 08:45 mahi29 wrote:
I'm a Protoss player - so I don't know if you can answer this or not. But what should I be looking for when I scout a Terran around the 7-8 minute mark to either 1) indicate that its safe to go double forge or 2) indicate that its not safe to go double forge.
if he has a big ass 1-1-1 army walking to your base, its probably not safe to go double forge. if he is making a cc at his expo, its probably okay to double forge.
What if we both go 1-rax/1-gate FE? I mean, we'd have our expansions down by about 5 minutes. And then when a T is adding on infrastructure, I don't know what to make of the number of rax/fact timings etc. Other than stuff, like a fast 3rd and double eng bay - which then I'm pretty safe - I'm lost.
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as a zerg player switching to terran i have no idea what im doing
what should i be doing as i go into a game? should my build be preplanned or should it be based on what i see?
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In TvZ when do you feel is roughly a good time to push out towards a zergs 3rd base. I never know when a good timing is to move out towards his 3rd base. Do you opt to push out right as it finishes? Do you prefer using an army to move there and kill it, or a drop?
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On March 21 2012 08:45 mahi29 wrote:I'm a Protoss player - so I don't know if you can answer this or not. But what should I be looking for when I scout a Terran around the 7-8 minute mark to either 1) indicate that its safe to go double forge or 2) indicate that its not safe to go double forge. I, almost always, go 1-gate FE and then add on 2 more gates and a Robo. I like to go double forge after this but I usually die any push that hits around the 10-12 minute mark. So if you could tell me what I should be looking for as far as scouting a T when going double forge - that indicates some heavy pressure and I should change my build, it would be greatly appreciated. If not, no problem Thanks EDIT :: Assuming the Terran in on 2 base. Obviously if he's on 1 base by the 8 minute mark, its an all-in incoming. I'm having trouble reading a 2-base Terran at 7-9 minute mark
Well first of all at the 6-8 minute mark it should be Terran that needs to figure out what you are doing. The real danger about Protoss is that there are so many options after your initial 1 gate expansion. Protoss is really scout dependant and you can adjust your builds on the fly as your 1 gate expansion is flexible, but you need to get information first.
If you can get your hands on the Terran and scout a gasless fast expansion (note it could be delayed double gas when you leave, but thats very unlikely) you can delay your robotics and pressure from 4 gates right after the expansion. It forces the Terran to at least go up to 2 bunkers and pull scvs if he wants to go save and delayes his overall play.
If you did scout a 1 gas expansion you can proceed as you did with adding 2 gateways and a robo. If you can't scout him going for a fast expansion I'll go ahead and make the statement that you should take the watchtower, immediately chronoboost out an observer and send it to the opponent and get a second observer. Put 2 stalkers in defensive position in your economy and the rest at front. If a banshee comes, it will probably be 1-1-1, other option would be banshee FE or banshee tripple CC.
Back to your original question, what you see with your observer is critical. Usually it is very map depandant what you can play. Lets take Antiga as an example of a map which has an easy to defend natural as there is a ramp (a big one, but at least a ramp, right?) while Metalopolis would not have one. If you see the standard 3 barracks into 2 medivacs, you can usually go for a double robo play as it will not be a critical timing for you (will describe later). Put your stalkers in your mainbase and leave sentry/zealot defending the ramp. With an observer following his army you should be able to see what he's doing.
If you play like that, its up to you if you decide to go blink first or charge, I personally would go blink if you are trying to be defensive and get charge after, as its better against drops and the defensive position should make up for charge being late.
If you scout 2 starports medivacs (one example) it will be a 2-base timing. Terran is trying to get his medivac count up to counter your upgrades and lack of AoE. I'd personally try to get Colossi in that case. Usually 2 forges are viable at nearly every play terran chooses to do, because its something terran needs to respond to, not the other way around.
Overall I can just tell you that you should get immortals after your initial observer, because they are very good and scale with upgrades. Guardian shield, forcefield and good focus fire should keep you alive and the timing you need to hit as Terran is very small, so at best you should go ahead and experiment a bit, usually it works out and the biggest part about double forge it knowing when to make units, when to chronoboost the upgrades and when the gateways. 3 1-1 zealots are way less useful compared to 8 0-0 zealots.
On March 21 2012 08:52 Denzil wrote:
as a zerg player switching to terran i have no idea what im doing
what should i be doing as i go into a game? should my build be preplanned or should it be based on what i see?
Well, if you are switching races you should get your hands on build orders you like. I don't know what level you are in Starcraft 2, but what I can tell you is a basic and solid fast expansion in every match up.
Terran vs Zerg the most common thing to do is reactor hellion, get your hands on replays of Polt, Happy or any other good Terran there is. The reactor fast expansion is the most common and one of the best openings. It can adjust to a lot and will usually never put you behind.
Terran vs Protoss you can use a one rax fast expansion without gas. Its a bit tricky to play and learn, but thats the standard I'd say right now. Getting no gas fast command center and adding two more barracks later on after that getting double gas to get to medivacs. Once again this is tricky, but if you get yourself a few replays and learn what to do at what time and how to read your opponent you are good to go.
Terran vs Terran can be very frustrating and tricky. 6:20 is scantiming to know what your opponent is doing, so scan at that time if you are not very experienced. I'd suggest you to play a fast expansion (1 rax gas) and getting the expansion after 1 marine, getting an reactor at the barracks. Then you can add barracks and go for more marines with combat shields first. This should set you off greatly vs nearly everything. 1-1-1 pushes can be hard to deal with though.
On March 21 2012 08:54 eXigent. wrote:
In TvZ when do you feel is roughly a good time to push out towards a zergs 3rd base. I never know when a good timing is to move out towards his 3rd base. Do you opt to push out right as it finishes? Do you prefer using an army to move there and kill it, or a drop?
It really depends on what the Zerg is doing. I have various builds. I have blind counters to the infestor style if I know my opponent and I know he's using that so I will ignore the 3rd base and push right into the main, but mainly I guess you are speaking about the "common" Zerg 3rd base timing with the latest evolution of the game which should still be ling/infestor. I usually use Polts build
Reactor hellion -> 6 hellions -> float factory and get additional two barracks (one at the previous reactor) while you research stim on your first barracks -> also get a 2nd gas and a starport. Please do not lose your hellions, those hellions are critical to hit the timing on the 3rd base of Zerg. Once you have 2 medivacs push out with those and your 16 marines. You can usually force him to either build tons of units or cancel / kill his third if you are doing it well. While you do this you can get an ebay, your 3rd base and 3 additional barracks.
Its a bit tricky, but Polt vs TLO (Antiga) or Polt vs Stephano (Assembly) shows this build and its a very good build if you execute it well.
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Too bad I have to sleep now, but I will leave you some questions if you need to do something
1) What is the best way to react to a very quick third base from Zerg? Like 8 min or so. I feel like I either have to punish it hard with a strong 2 base push which seems kinda allin to be. Most Zergs just make masses of lings and crush it and if I don't kill the hatch its basically game over. Or is it better to take a very fast third by my own? I think if I start the third when I see his almost done it is a bit late. Yes of course my helions should deny him the third but sometimes I don't look and they get surrouned or he goes roaches. I guess that I the reason why many Terrans including me are going for the triple CC build.
2) Speaking of the triple CC. I have trouble holding a 2 base roach/ling or roach/ling/baneling allin. Against Zerg I usually go for the triple CC or I get fast medivacs after hellions, push to deny creep and pressure the third and get a third behind it before 10 mins. Do I have to rush to siege when I see no spine at his front? With the 2 mentioned build siege comes usually too late for this push and without siege I cannot hold it. I even die with a bunker, a tank, marodeurs and a wall. It would mean I have to send my first 2 hellions straight to his base, check for spine and then instantly start siege even tho I went for a reactor for medivacs.
3) I am currently trying to get better with mech TvT but I always die to early Marine/Medivac or Marine/Tank pushes. With early I don't mean allin, but around the 10min mark with stim and combat shield after my opponent expanded, as seen in Ironsquid Mvp vs Thorzain. I basically need a good opening that is very safe and gets a fast expansion. Should I open blueflame and mass hellions to be safe? Or reactor hellion to have more hellions and get siege early? I mean should I rely on hellions or tanks to defend such pushes? Should I get siege first or blueflame? Or open banshee? When should I push out with mech? Whenever I leave my base I get countered by bio, lose all my bases and production and get flanked from all sides. Bio players just take the entire map when they see I go mech and I can't punish it, they basically play like a Zerg. Then they sit in front of my base with a huge concave and the moment I unsiege to move out I am dead.
Btw I am high masters. Need to sleep now. Thanks!
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how do you deal with infestor ling into very fast ultra if you opened reactor hellion CC? i find it very difficult to move out once zerg has droned up and has enough lings to force my hellions off the map. i generally go 3rax port with double medivac, but when i move out with my first two medivacs and stim even if i saved all my hellions i find i get overrun very easily by 1/1 lings. that's the first timing i have problems with.
the second timing is when zerg has got infestors out. i guess since i generally rely on denying zerg's third or at least killing a fair bit of lings on the map with my first two medivacs my midgame is generally much weaker if i lost all my shit to his 1/1 lings. i'm not sure if i'm supposed to try to match his infestors with ghosts and snipe, or if i'm supposed to go up to 5rax bio, or stay on 3rax with tanks and reactor port and my own double ebay to match ups, or what. i tried a 3 port banshee switch to snipe infestors in the midgame once and it worked, but i'm not really sure if that's stable or "good" play.
the last bit is when i'm on 2/2 and zerg has got 5/3 finished and ultras are streaming out. i always get busted by just mass infestor ling ultra here; i think it's because i haven't managed to do any damage to the midgame and generally don't make a dent into his infestor count, so all his gas is ups and ultras. do i just need to make a stronger midgame push to kill his gas units, or should i get more defensive with 2fac tank production, or what? i just feel really lost when ultras are out and my 3/3 is nowhere close to done.
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On March 21 2012 08:49 VPCursed wrote:
im GM terran NA... how the fuck i beat Protoss on maps like entombed?
Hey there fellow Terran ! Well the benefit of Protoss playing on Entombed Valley really is just that they can turtle well on 3 base and your drops cannot spread them out. I will agree with you that its not an easy map if you want to be very agressive but you can easily get into an greedy macro game. The middle is wide open and can be used. As you cannot be as agressive usually and they will probably open up getting colossi and a 3rd base and only move out with templars after they got storm you should keep an eye on your upgrades and just macro as good as you can.
I don't think that a Terran on even upgrades and ghosts has a disadvantage against Protoss, but its just very hard to micro. Be defensive when you need to be and park two medivacs at his third base, it will make him think twice if he moves out (if he sees them) and when he moves out, drop and either force him back, or prepare yourself for him hitting you hard. It just really needs time and experience. Make him spend chronoboost early on things he doesn't want to use like units instead of tech etc.
Fake a drop at his 3rd while you drop his main. Things like that, its easier said than done, no one knows that as well as you as GM Terran, but thats just how it works. What I love on this map is a double eleven rax, as most Protoss will go 1 gate fast expansion and skip the zealot and you can either pressure and kill a few probes or even kill him. Just don't let him scout your two rax obviously.
GL another option would be Marine/Hellion/Medivac push very early and transition into 1-1-1.
On March 21 2012 08:49 sAymole wrote:
hey NarutO, I'm a Low/Mid Master at this stage on NA.
I just have a few questions regarding TvT:
I usually opt for a Marine-Tank play, except if my opponent goes mech, then I transition into Bio asap.
My problem is that I don't really understand how to play Marine Tank vs Marine Tank.
It revolves around me being unsure of when to be defensive or offensive.
When am i supposed to push out with my army assuming me and my opponent are sitting about even? Is it based on upgrade timings?
When is it viable for me to go for a drop; both harassment style or doom?
Is it cool to spam sensor towers or should i just put up turrets and be done with it?
Are you supposed to get Stim before Combat Shields or vice versa?
What's the correct method of engagement when your armies do eventually meet?
Also, what build do you recommend for a Marine Tank style play?
I open Reactor'd Rax Expand, into Fact and Port, but I've seen naked Rax FE into +2 Rax double gas much more often both on ladder and on streams.
I realize this ended up being a lot of questions;; even just a few answered would be really appreciated.
Thanks for your offer and time.
Hey. I love marine/tank players, stick to it! Haha. Well I'll start off with a build order and I really think that either the 1 rax reaper expansion or 1 rax 3 reaper expansion is the way to go if you want to play marine/tank or a solid build overall. If you are going that build a lot of players will actually go into the 1-1-1 push and its insanely hard to hold off, but its possible so you should just work on your part there.
Against that 1-1-1 push you would like to have stim first, but since stim first takes longer and is worse against every other build, you should always follow your fast expansion up with combat shields. Well I think marine/tank is as you mentioned a lot about engagements and how to position yourself. There are certain maps where its more important or the most important thing and maps where its not as important.
Shakuras and Tal'Darim are for example (Tal'Darim only on certain locations) very hard maps to get yourself a good position or get out of a bad position while shattered temple for example can be a bit easier to get out of a bad spot. Usually you never want to engage an even army, it usually just doesn't work especially if they are presieged. What you want to do in TvT is put them out of position - how you do that is up to you. I love to drop at two places at once or even just 1 drop if you can do it. 8 stim marines will force him to send units and 2 dropships will force him to send even more.
Try to get him to engage into you, bait him with your marines while you already have your tanks sieged, try to get the watchtower early and keep holding it. I really would love to give you any good advice, but positioning is just something you learn due to experience and there's no "do that, and you'll gain that". If you want to engage a sieged up army, try to split as good as possible, try to spread out and try to engage it from as many angles as possible. Tankfire spread out or into different directions is less scary than tankfire into one direction.
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What are the builds you use against each race? That seems to really be my only problem... especially in TvT. I just don't know what to do. TvP is the only matchup I consistently do the same thing again and again it: 3rax pull workers all in. TvZ I try some shit with helions or drops or mech but I don't really know how to do any of it. Input?
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On March 21 2012 08:58 Aquila- wrote:Too bad I have to sleep now, but I will leave you some questions if you need to do something 1) What is the best way to react to a very quick third base from Zerg? Like 8 min or so. I feel like I either have to punish it hard with a strong 2 base push which seems kinda allin to be. Most Zergs just make masses of lings and crush it and if I don't kill the hatch its basically game over. Or is it better to take a very fast third by my own? I think if I start the third when I see his almost done it is a bit late. Yes of course my helions should deny him the third but sometimes I don't look and they get surrouned or he goes roaches. I guess that I the reason why many Terrans including me are going for the triple CC build. 2) Speaking of the triple CC. I have trouble holding a 2 base roach/ling or roach/ling/baneling allin. Against Zerg I usually go for the triple CC or I get fast medivacs after hellions, push to deny creep and pressure the third and get a third behind it before 10 mins. Do I have to rush to siege when I see no spine at his front? With the 2 mentioned build siege comes usually too late for this push and without siege I cannot hold it. I even die with a bunker, a tank, marodeurs and a wall. It would mean I have to send my first 2 hellions straight to his base, check for spine and then instantly start siege even tho I went for a reactor for medivacs. 3) I am currently trying to get better with mech TvT but I always die to early Marine/Medivac or Marine/Tank pushes. With early I don't mean allin, but around the 10min mark with stim and combat shield after my opponent expanded, as seen in Ironsquid Mvp vs Thorzain. I basically need a good opening that is very safe and gets a fast expansion. Should I open blueflame and mass hellions to be safe? Or reactor hellion to have more hellions and get siege early? I mean should I rely on hellions or tanks to defend such pushes? Should I get siege first or blueflame? Or open banshee? When should I push out with mech? Whenever I leave my base I get countered by bio, lose all my bases and production and get flanked from all sides. Bio players just take the entire map when they see I go mech and I can't punish it, they basically play like a Zerg. Then they sit in front of my base with a huge concave and the moment I unsiege to move out I am dead. Btw I am high masters. Need to sleep now. Thanks!
1) I do believe that if Zerg takes a very greedy third base they went roaches. Thats just an assumption, because usually you would have hellions (with most builds) to deny it. If they invest into roaches, their tech will be slower than it usually would be. There is really no way to end the game against a greedy Zerg, but you can force him to not drone, but instead make units. You can follow up your initial hellion pressure (keep them!) with a medivac / marine push to the third base. He needs to respond with roach/ling and a lot at that, because he cannot just sit and happily drone all day long.
Also get a viking to kill overlords as his tech is delayed and a greedy third usually means no mutalisks. While you pressure you can get yourself a 3rd base and add more production. Add a 2nd factory as soon as possible, there really is no need to end the game as even if he gets a greedy third, if you apply pressure and drop (roach / ling = no anti air) he cannot drone as much as he wants and as long as he produces units, you will not fall behind as much in economy so the game is very play and winnable.
2) I think first of all you need to scout well with your hellions and deny the roach - push as long as possible. Try to go back with your hellions bit - by - bit. Making the roaches stop every once in a while. It doesn't buy much time, but it buys time. When this push hits have a wall with supply depots and a bunker behind. Obviously the risk is that you will get supply stuck, but thats what you have to accept for banelings to not detonate in your army. Try to catch the reinforcement lings wiht hellions or try to shoot the banelings. Position yourself very well.
If you scout it very early you can add 2 - 3 bunkers behind your initial bunker. Its really a lot about control. Zerg invests a lot into it, so you can even evacuate your scvs and lift your natural and fall back, keep building marauders from 1 barracks and marines from the other. He is so behind in tech, if he doesn't kill you right away you will have a good timing window to hit him. This build is tricky to hold and it takes experience, sometimes I hold it off well, sometimes I don't. Try to play a round a bit with hellion - numbers and when to add what.
3) I am a very unexperienced mech player and I would love to give suggestions to you, but I simply can't. I don't really like mech and I know its a weak point that I cannot play both viable things, but thats how it is. I will eventually work on it but I would like to skip this question as I cannot savely give you advice there.
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On March 21 2012 09:08 rauk wrote:
how do you deal with infestor ling into very fast ultra if you opened reactor hellion CC? i find it very difficult to move out once zerg has droned up and has enough lings to force my hellions off the map. i generally go 3rax port with double medivac, but when i move out with my first two medivacs and stim even if i saved all my hellions i find i get overrun very easily by 1/1 lings. that's the first timing i have problems with.
the second timing is when zerg has got infestors out. i guess since i generally rely on denying zerg's third or at least killing a fair bit of lings on the map with my first two medivacs my midgame is generally much weaker if i lost all my shit to his 1/1 lings. i'm not sure if i'm supposed to try to match his infestors with ghosts and snipe, or if i'm supposed to go up to 5rax bio, or stay on 3rax with tanks and reactor port and my own double ebay to match ups, or what. i tried a 3 port banshee switch to snipe infestors in the midgame once and it worked, but i'm not really sure if that's stable or "good" play.
the last bit is when i'm on 2/2 and zerg has got 5/3 finished and ultras are streaming out. i always get busted by just mass infestor ling ultra here; i think it's because i haven't managed to do any damage to the midgame and generally don't make a dent into his infestor count, so all his gas is ups and ultras. do i just need to make a stronger midgame push to kill his gas units, or should i get more defensive with 2fac tank production, or what? i just feel really lost when ultras are out and my 3/3 is nowhere close to done.
The first timing you have problems with shouldn't be too much of a problem. I always use 6 hellions, because first of all the current metagame usually is ling/infestor so you need a few more hellions and 6 is a lot better than 4 and second because I copied my build from Polt.
The timing you hit the third usually shouldn't be too much to handle and you should never get overrun. Lings only if its not an absurd amount even with 1-1 usuall cannot handle 6 hellions and 16 marines with medivacs, if you position yourself well. If its too many zerglings try to get as good of a trade as possible and load everything up, retreat. While you do that you can already get your 3rd base up and get more production and upgrades.
Midgame (after your 3rd base is ready, can be in your base still, but ready) you should have 6 barracks. Against ling/infestor I would recommend 2 techlab and 4 reactor barracks and you should have 2 factories. As soon as your 3rd base is operational you can add a 3rd factory and work on your tankcount. Be careful, since not every Zerg goes ultra, but some go broodlord and high-tank coun't doesn't help much there.
Infestors are a very defensive unit and very strong there. If you fell behind you will only donate units with drops. Try to be a bit more defensive and macro. Try to catch up in upgrades and play very save. If you can secure bases and build up an army, ultras are not as scary. Try to watch replays of Korean Terrans, they are very good in positioning their units. At the engagement try to right-click and shift through infestors with your units. Leave some marines in front to soak-ultra damage as they don't deal as much against marines, but basically what you said. If you didn't even have a trade in the earlymidgame, you fell behind that he can happily drone and you will eventually lose. Its a very hard style to play against, so keep working on your ability to position yourself and macro behind it.
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On March 21 2012 09:17 CyDe wrote:
What are the builds you use against each race? That seems to really be my only problem... especially in TvT. I just don't know what to do. TvP is the only matchup I consistently do the same thing again and again it: 3rax pull workers all in. TvZ I try some shit with helions or drops or mech but I don't really know how to do any of it. Input?
Terran vs Terran - various. 1 rax 1 reaper FE into combat shields should be a solid all-around build. Add two barracks and work towards medivacs after that.
Terran vs Protoss - I'd say go for no gas fast expansion into 3 rax, absolute standard play. From your build you described it seems like you are either not very high level or very frustrated, so you could follow up your gasless fast expansion with 4 rax marine pressure.
Terran vs Zerg - Reactor hellion FE from Polt or different no-gas openings.
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Hello,
This is my first post here! I'm rather new to SC2 / RTS in general, but I believe I'm improving a lot (currently rank 1 in my silver division and playing only higher rank silver/gold mixed with some plats).
I don't know how simple my question is, but basically; how do I scout? I usually send my SCV from rax / depot into their base and see what's there, which usually doesn't tell me much, if I manage to get it to escape I usually place it in their natural to see if they expand, if not - I check up their base which usually gets that SCV killed, now how do I proceed with scouting more into their build / tech with the least cost, do I get a banshee / reaper depending on my build? Should I always scout with a banshee / reaper? What if that reaper dies? etc..
Basically any pointers on how to get more info without spending too many scans that could be turned into gold and / or used to deny banshees / obs.
Would be even better if you could write down your thought process while scouting, when to retreat, when to get greedy and so on.
Thank you!
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On March 21 2012 10:12 pRodg wrote:
Hello,
This is my first post here! I'm rather new to SC2 / RTS in general, but I believe I'm improving a lot (currently rank 1 in my silver division and playing only higher rank silver/gold mixed with some plats).
I don't know how simple my question is, but basically; how do I scout? I usually send my SCV from rax / depot into their base and see what's there, which usually doesn't tell me much, if I manage to get it to escape I usually place it in their natural to see if they expand, if not - I check up their base which usually gets that SCV killed, now how do I proceed with scouting more into their build / tech with the least cost, do I get a banshee / reaper depending on my build? Should I always scout with a banshee / reaper? What if that reaper dies? etc..
Basically any pointers on how to get more info without spending too many scans that could be turned into gold and / or used to deny banshees / obs.
Would be even better if you could write down your thought process while scouting, when to retreat, when to get greedy and so on.
Thank you!
Hey there, welcome to Teamliquid. It really depends on what you are playing and what race your opponent is what info you need. Since you are in silver still, I don't really know what builds you are using, but I for my part go for fast expansions and I do scout if they are going agressive openings or they sit back.
Against Zerg you usually don't see a lot. You will most likely see a fast expansion and a pool building + gas. No more information you can get really. What I can suggest vs Zerg is a reactor hellion opening as it will give you information about what Zerg is doing. Is he going speedlings, roach... etc. So you can properly respond.
Against Protoss you need to understand what the Protoss build means early on. Its tricky. For example if he got 2 gas taken and a lot of chronoboost he will probably hit you with a build involving a stargate, could be voidray 3 gate allin or phoenix.
If your scv doesn't die, just don't sit at the natural but hide in on the map, so you can poke back in a bit later (for example when the stalker pressures you)
Two gas no chronoboost could mean they are simply going for an fast expansion, but it could also be a dark templar build. There is really no safe way to say it, you just need to go a bit safer against a two gas build from Protoss.
Against Terran I'd go for a reaper fast expansion. In silver I guess you are still experiencing a lot of marine or marine/marauder allins and you can get info with your reaper early and transition into marine/tank. If you see something very agressive, don't shy away from a bunker or two. Its better on your level to overreact with defence than have none.
A proper scan timing for a fast expansion would be 6:20. You can see if he's going banshee (with or without cloak) etc and you still have time to react.
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On March 21 2012 10:23 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 10:12 pRodg wrote:
Hello,
This is my first post here! I'm rather new to SC2 / RTS in general, but I believe I'm improving a lot (currently rank 1 in my silver division and playing only higher rank silver/gold mixed with some plats).
I don't know how simple my question is, but basically; how do I scout? I usually send my SCV from rax / depot into their base and see what's there, which usually doesn't tell me much, if I manage to get it to escape I usually place it in their natural to see if they expand, if not - I check up their base which usually gets that SCV killed, now how do I proceed with scouting more into their build / tech with the least cost, do I get a banshee / reaper depending on my build? Should I always scout with a banshee / reaper? What if that reaper dies? etc..
Basically any pointers on how to get more info without spending too many scans that could be turned into gold and / or used to deny banshees / obs.
Would be even better if you could write down your thought process while scouting, when to retreat, when to get greedy and so on.
Thank you! Hey there, welcome to Teamliquid. It really depends on what you are playing and what race your opponent is what info you need. Since you are in silver still, I don't really know what builds you are using, but I for my part go for fast expansions and I do scout if they are going agressive openings or they sit back. Against Zerg you usually don't see a lot. You will most likely see a fast expansion and a pool building + gas. No more information you can get really. What I can suggest vs Zerg is a reactor hellion opening as it will give you information about what Zerg is doing. Is he going speedlings, roach... etc. So you can properly respond. Against Protoss you need to understand what the Protoss build means early on. Its tricky. For example if he got 2 gas taken and a lot of chronoboost he will probably hit you with a build involving a stargate, could be voidray 3 gate allin or phoenix. If your scv doesn't die, just don't sit at the natural but hide in on the map, so you can poke back in a bit later (for example when the stalker pressures you) Two gas no chronoboost could mean they are simply going for an fast expansion, but it could also be a dark templar build. There is really no safe way to say it, you just need to go a bit safer against a two gas build from Protoss. Against Terran I'd go for a reaper fast expansion. In silver I guess you are still experiencing a lot of marine or marine/marauder allins and you can get info with your reaper early and transition into marine/tank. If you see something very agressive, don't shy away from a bunker or two. Its better on your level to overreact with defence than have none. A proper scan timing for a fast expansion would be 6:20. You can see if he's going banshee (with or without cloak) etc and you still have time to react.
Thank you for the informative reply, I, too go with a fast expansion.
vs. Zerg, I usually go with reactor hellion, but sometimes due to my very noob micro I lose my hellions in zergling surrounds, it doesn't happen very often, but it happens :<.
I've also learned how to scout for chronoboosts, I sometimes send my SCV (if it survives) and initial marine around the map for any proxy pylons / stargates that might be hidden, so I don't get voidray'd much.
vs. Terran I also scan around 6 minutes (thanks for the exact timing), and go on from there.
So its good that now I know I'm doing those things correctly (or half correctly! :D).
My question is though, into the mid-game, especially vs. protoss, can I get any sort of information on what tech-tree are they going for (colossus / dt / ht) without wasting too many scans, and before they come knocking at my doorstep / me at theirs? Like if I scan I might miss the colossus by 2 seconds and not make enough vikings to counter it which results into my marines/maraudars getting fried.
If you could be kind to tell me how to scout those things (time / method) that would be awesome.
Another question is:
Baneling bust.... how? HOWWW? I almost always seem to lose to a baneling bust, ALWAYS, its the only thing that makes me rage while playing sc2, since I come from a competitive atmosphere (cs 1.6 / dota) on a national/regional level. I learned not to rage much especially at practice (which is the purpose of ladder, to me, at least). But a good ole' Baneling bust seems to just kill my nerves and I can't seem to find a solution, how do I go on blocking my ramp/ramps? And so on.
Your help is very much appreciated! And I hope I'm keeping you good company as you're bored at work (I presume!).
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On March 21 2012 10:37 pRodg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 10:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 10:12 pRodg wrote:
Hello,
This is my first post here! I'm rather new to SC2 / RTS in general, but I believe I'm improving a lot (currently rank 1 in my silver division and playing only higher rank silver/gold mixed with some plats).
I don't know how simple my question is, but basically; how do I scout? I usually send my SCV from rax / depot into their base and see what's there, which usually doesn't tell me much, if I manage to get it to escape I usually place it in their natural to see if they expand, if not - I check up their base which usually gets that SCV killed, now how do I proceed with scouting more into their build / tech with the least cost, do I get a banshee / reaper depending on my build? Should I always scout with a banshee / reaper? What if that reaper dies? etc..
Basically any pointers on how to get more info without spending too many scans that could be turned into gold and / or used to deny banshees / obs.
Would be even better if you could write down your thought process while scouting, when to retreat, when to get greedy and so on.
Thank you! Hey there, welcome to Teamliquid. It really depends on what you are playing and what race your opponent is what info you need. Since you are in silver still, I don't really know what builds you are using, but I for my part go for fast expansions and I do scout if they are going agressive openings or they sit back. Against Zerg you usually don't see a lot. You will most likely see a fast expansion and a pool building + gas. No more information you can get really. What I can suggest vs Zerg is a reactor hellion opening as it will give you information about what Zerg is doing. Is he going speedlings, roach... etc. So you can properly respond. Against Protoss you need to understand what the Protoss build means early on. Its tricky. For example if he got 2 gas taken and a lot of chronoboost he will probably hit you with a build involving a stargate, could be voidray 3 gate allin or phoenix. If your scv doesn't die, just don't sit at the natural but hide in on the map, so you can poke back in a bit later (for example when the stalker pressures you) Two gas no chronoboost could mean they are simply going for an fast expansion, but it could also be a dark templar build. There is really no safe way to say it, you just need to go a bit safer against a two gas build from Protoss. Against Terran I'd go for a reaper fast expansion. In silver I guess you are still experiencing a lot of marine or marine/marauder allins and you can get info with your reaper early and transition into marine/tank. If you see something very agressive, don't shy away from a bunker or two. Its better on your level to overreact with defence than have none. A proper scan timing for a fast expansion would be 6:20. You can see if he's going banshee (with or without cloak) etc and you still have time to react. Thank you for the informative reply, I, too go with a fast expansion. vs. Zerg, I usually go with reactor hellion, but sometimes due to my very noob micro I lose my hellions in zergling surrounds, it doesn't happen very often, but it happens :<. I've also learned how to scout for chronoboosts, I sometimes send my SCV (if it survives) and initial marine around the map for any proxy pylons / stargates that might be hidden, so I don't get voidray'd much. vs. Terran I also scan around 6 minutes (thanks for the exact timing), and go on from there. So its good that now I know I'm doing those things correctly (or half correctly! :D). My question is though, into the mid-game, especially vs. protoss, can I get any sort of information on what tech-tree are they going for (colossus / dt / ht) without wasting too many scans, and before they come knocking at my doorstep / me at theirs? Like if I scan I might miss the colossus by 2 seconds and not make enough vikings to counter it which results into my marines/maraudars getting fried. If you could be kind to tell me how to scout those things (time / method) that would be awesome. Another question is: Baneling bust.... how? HOWWW? I almost always seem to lose to a baneling bust, ALWAYS, its the only thing that makes me rage while playing sc2, since I come from a competitive atmosphere (cs 1.6 / dota) on a national/regional level. I learned not to rage much especially at practice (which is the purpose of ladder, to me, at least). But a good ole' Baneling bust seems to just kill my nerves and I can't seem to find a solution, how do I go on blocking my ramp/ramps? And so on. Your help is very much appreciated! And I hope I'm keeping you good company as you're bored at work (I presume!).
Right now I'm not very bored. mouz vs TL and Kas vs Squirtle but thank you anyways haha. Well against Protoss for the midgame, when you went for the standard fast expansion into 3 barracks and medivacs, you can move out with your army and your first two medivacs. Usually you will know if he goes for a robo because you can usually see the blur of an observer, if not it could still be robo, but you can't know for sure.
Around the time you move out, when you don't see an observer just throw a scan in the main. You MIGHT miss important tech, but usually you don't and the chance to miss is not that big. There is no exact timing or method of scouting. When you move out you can pressure the front or try to drop with your two medivacs, this would be another way to scout. Some progamers just drop 1 marine and stim it and run it around to get scouting information.
If you want to scout for timing pushes you need to know that you don't need 4 gas for 6/7/8 gate so you can scout if they took their gas at the natural around 6:40-7:00. If not, they will probably hit you with a 6-8 gate soon.
If you open up reactored hellions you should not die to a baneling bust from one base (is that what you mean?), because your initial scout will see them taking gas and if they start speed right away (from 1 base) and still harvest gas, its either roach or baneling bust.
A two base roach/baneling bust is a bit harder to hold off, but I described further at the top and in reply to another question how to deal with it or at least try to deal with it. From 1 base you can just build 2 bunkers behind the wall (not attached to it) and back up with your hellions micro'ing them.
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