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Wings of Broodwar: Battle for Arrakis - Page 8

Blogs > lorkac
Post a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 All
Bobbias
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1373 Posts
January 29 2012 09:34 GMT
#141
That was downright impressive writing.
GuitarBizarre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom332 Posts
January 29 2012 14:31 GMT
#142
Fantastic thread. I hate hearing about how much more difficult broodwar was as if that was some kind of positive element. We're a long way from seeing SC2 as a mature game and people seem to want to shit on it comparing the two.
In retrospect, I don't know how you can play StarCraft without swearing. - Eifer
Proko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1022 Posts
January 30 2012 05:14 GMT
#143
"...Many have tried to call chess a strategy game?"
"...They tried and failed?"
"...They tried and died."
Caster duos should compliment each others' strengths. "You look very handsome today, Tasteless."
Harrow
Profile Joined November 2010
United States245 Posts
January 30 2012 06:09 GMT
#144
This blog is as deceptive as SC2. Everyone comes in, expecting some more hardcore version of the standard BW>SC2 rant, and then it pulls everything together into a wonderful epiphany about everything ever.

Thanks.
popzags
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland604 Posts
January 30 2012 15:52 GMT
#145
Brofist for Dune 2! I was sooo young when I played it. I remember I only managed to beat it with Harkonnen, cause I could just turtle and launch my rockets (Death Hand, I think, was their name) till all enemy buildings got destroyed.
What what the the fuck fuck? That blew my mind so much, I doubled every word in the phrase 'What the fuck' to get: 'What what the the fuck fuck my what the the fuck fucking what did the drop dropship medivac where in the what in the hell?' - Day[9]
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
January 31 2012 23:17 GMT
#146
Now I want to play Dune2 lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Jankisa
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Croatia823 Posts
February 01 2012 11:06 GMT
#147
Amazing read, 5/5 + another 10 for nostalgia factor, since I had similar progression (chess->wc1->BW->wc2->wc3-SC2), and every step had that OMFG this shit is so easy in this game moment, tho I feel that's also related to growing up and being able to think better.

I remember playing first 3 orc mission son wc1 for a week, inching my way with almost no economy towards huge rows of units only to be devastated when my 4 year older friend came over and did those missions in 2 hours.

Thanks for a wonderful read.
So, are you a pessimist? - On my better days. Are you a nihilist? - Not as much as I should be.
Mazaire
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia217 Posts
February 02 2012 04:51 GMT
#148
Thank you for the nice blog post! i t reminds me of my age of empires, dark reign wc3 and empire earth phase back when i was about 13 14.
"No matter what event you go to there are so many koreans, like a swarm. Even if you beat three or four, there are like 10 others waiting." - Socke
CloakAndPoke
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands3 Posts
February 02 2012 10:55 GMT
#149
On January 25 2012 20:44 Sawamura wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 20:08 MaRiNe23 wrote:
On January 25 2012 19:11 Sawamura wrote:
chess is not strategy what ?

You didn't even read it did you?


He compared Computer games to chess which is illogical a thing to do .... Kasporov maybe should be playing starcraft instead because than he will realised what is TRUE strategy than.


Kasparov did play sc2. Placed silver and went top 10 gold until season 2 hit. (he played toss.)
Why "Quote" if you can be original?
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
February 02 2012 11:29 GMT
#150
On February 02 2012 19:55 CloakAndPoke wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 20:44 Sawamura wrote:
On January 25 2012 20:08 MaRiNe23 wrote:
On January 25 2012 19:11 Sawamura wrote:
chess is not strategy what ?

You didn't even read it did you?


He compared Computer games to chess which is illogical a thing to do .... Kasporov maybe should be playing starcraft instead because than he will realised what is TRUE strategy than.


Kasparov did play sc2. Placed silver and went top 10 gold until season 2 hit. (he played toss.)


This news definitely needs a source.
Logic is Overrated
gplayer
Profile Joined March 2011
Romania106 Posts
February 02 2012 14:05 GMT
#151
I also remember playing all those games, Dune II, AOE II, Starcraft and Broodwar, then SC2, liking each more than the previous, because I always thought that the newer game was better designed, made more sense and such. I read the entire post and I must say it was pretty entertaining. About chess, I played as a kid, didn't think too much about it, I was an average chess playing kid, but I remember that when I started playing Starcraft I just came to the conclusion that SC is chess but way more complicated and demanding on the brain, and not only (you also need great hand-eye coordination). So chess just seemed silly.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
February 02 2012 17:17 GMT
#152
read it all!
5/5
well said.
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
popzags
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland604 Posts
February 10 2012 12:03 GMT
#153
Man, I think you seriously went wrong with your thought process (at least in the end).

Dune II was groundbreaking at the time, but I think you put too much sentimental value on it. Remember, it was like the very first RTS video game ever; the programmers hardly had any idea how to execute RTS concept properly. They ended up making a game that occasionally forced the player to be quick and decisive and then he the same player was going to three-minute hiatus, cause there was nothing to do on a map, except to wait for your Harvester to get full and return to base with some money. Or wait for your atrociously slow troops to arrive near enemy base. Simply speaking, the dynamic nature of RTS wasn't exploited too well in that game; it was cool to play it, sure, but the mechanics you describe couldn't make up for the fact that the overall game flow was awful. That, of course, doesn't take anything from Dune II; as for a pionieer among this species of games, it was really spectacular; it just came out too early to have a chance for perfection.

As far as I can see, the last part of your blog is about the level of bearable in-game mechanics every player has to struggle with while playing RTSs - in other words, how much player has to struggle with stupid AI, compared to how much he actually struggles with his human opponent. If Dune II ever had a multiplayer, players would most probably be forced to do the former; unfortunately, in that game, overcoming most of mechanics wouldn't yield you much; you could block the entrances of buildings or put your infantry on the rocks, but it wouldn't matter so much in hypotetic multiplayer, because it would be too heavily focused on just getting to Construction Yard and killing it. To be fair, Broodwar might have similar issue now, because good macro and resource management is so much above everything else; but I guess the degree of this problem is way lesser than in Dune II.

Still, back to Starcraft. After over twelve years of experience, we know damn lot about it; but look how long it took to figure out the superior value of macro, or little, but crucial features like Muta stacking. Try to look wider on it: aside from being a sport, it became a science, where coaches and progamers crafted new builds to counter currently trending strategies of enemy races on specific maps. Do you see the similarities between Starcraft and chess? Just like top grandmasters examined some lines deeper and deeper to find improvements, SC players seeked more and more polished builds AND more and more effective adaptations to the opponents' responses. And, again just like in chess, with time passing by, the defensive technique of SC gamers improved a lot, steering the game from wild early agression to longer, management-style struggle. I don't think any patch of Dune II could accomplish those.

Don't make a mistake about it; it's not that much about arbitrary judgement, about the 'bandwagon' of netizens starting to play SC, cause everyone got excited about it. Broodwar got so popular for objective reasons: because it had relatively low hardware requirements, three playable races that became more and more balanced with following patches, and, most importantly, various ways of accomplishing the goal of winning. You could win by patient defense, cheese, relentless harass, crazy macro, hitting certain timing etc. There was no one correct way to beat your opponent, no Construction Yard you had to focus-fire on like in Dune II; even though some strategies proved to be direct counters to the others, the game still could've been saved by better micro, positioning and/or smart guessing what's coming. And when a game with such features met the growing market of on-line games and the growing number of Internet gamers, the result was as we see it today.

Last but not least, think about the randomness factor.

In chess, it's plainly nonexistent. Player has all relevant informations in front of him, on the chessboard. Therefore, in chess, the result is not determined by a gamble or hit-or-miss guessing game; it depends on whether one or the other player has good enough analytical thinking to extract the information from the position and good enough judgement of what's coming, based on concrete situational factors. The only person to blame for a loss in chess is yourself, which of course is one of many things that suck people into the world of 64 squares.

But in Starcraft, the randomness factor is quite important. Build-order losses happen. A scouting advantage, ninja expo, gltching unit or some imbalanced map positions for specific matchups can easily yield an immediate advantage to either side. Surely, some of those features can be overcome; but not every time. Starcraft players simply got over it, as it's not that big deal in SC, and, I guess, a small piece of random gamble is a part of the fun.

And finally, consider Dune II. Broodwar had the randomness, but it was about fog of war, start locations or unfixed bugs. But in Dune, all air units were one big random factor. I, myself saw Carryalls being destroyed by enemy troops cause they tried to pick up an unit that was about to die, and when it exploded, it's blast took down the plane as well. Take a look on sandworms; as far as I remember, they sometimes were super-agressive and prevented one player from mining certain spice field, wheras second player, on the other side of the map, could collect his own spice peacefully. Ever used Harkonnen Palace weapon? It never landed right on a place you intended to hit; sometimes, you took down CY with the first shot; sometimes, you had to spend five to actually hit anything but the desert. Etc. etc.

My final point is: the less control you have over in-game features, the more random and gamble-like game is. And there is a point, where it becomes frustrating, because not enough depends on your actions. Broodwar wasn't random enough to frustrate it's fans; but IMO Dune II would be that way - if it ever could turn out to be a popular multiplayer game.
What what the the fuck fuck? That blew my mind so much, I doubled every word in the phrase 'What the fuck' to get: 'What what the the fuck fuck my what the the fuck fucking what did the drop dropship medivac where in the what in the hell?' - Day[9]
_Animus_
Profile Joined February 2011
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-13 22:11:13
March 06 2012 12:46 GMT
#154
Luv ya BroodWar!
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