EPTWings of Broodwar: Battle for Arrakis - Page 8
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Bobbias
Canada1373 Posts
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GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
"...They tried and failed?" "...They tried and died." | ||
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Harrow
United States245 Posts
Thanks. | ||
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popzags
Poland604 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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Jankisa
Croatia1778 Posts
I remember playing first 3 orc mission son wc1 for a week, inching my way with almost no economy towards huge rows of units only to be devastated when my 4 year older friend came over and did those missions in 2 hours.  Thanks for a wonderful read. | ||
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Mazaire
Australia217 Posts
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CloakAndPoke
Netherlands3 Posts
On January 25 2012 20:44 Sawamura wrote: He compared Computer games to chess which is illogical a thing to do .... Kasporov maybe should be playing starcraft instead because than he will realised what is TRUE strategy than. Kasparov did play sc2. Placed silver and went top 10 gold until season 2 hit. (he played toss.) | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
On February 02 2012 19:55 CloakAndPoke wrote: Kasparov did play sc2. Placed silver and went top 10 gold until season 2 hit. (he played toss.) This news definitely needs a source. | ||
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gplayer
Romania106 Posts
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
5/5 well said. | ||
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popzags
Poland604 Posts
Dune II was groundbreaking at the time, but I think you put too much sentimental value on it. Remember, it was like the very first RTS video game ever; the programmers hardly had any idea how to execute RTS concept properly. They ended up making a game that occasionally forced the player to be quick and decisive and then he the same player was going to three-minute hiatus, cause there was nothing to do on a map, except to wait for your Harvester to get full and return to base with some money. Or wait for your atrociously slow troops to arrive near enemy base. Simply speaking, the dynamic nature of RTS wasn't exploited too well in that game; it was cool to play it, sure, but the mechanics you describe couldn't make up for the fact that the overall game flow was awful. That, of course, doesn't take anything from Dune II; as for a pionieer among this species of games, it was really spectacular; it just came out too early to have a chance for perfection. As far as I can see, the last part of your blog is about the level of bearable in-game mechanics every player has to struggle with while playing RTSs - in other words, how much player has to struggle with stupid AI, compared to how much he actually struggles with his human opponent. If Dune II ever had a multiplayer, players would most probably be forced to do the former; unfortunately, in that game, overcoming most of mechanics wouldn't yield you much; you could block the entrances of buildings or put your infantry on the rocks, but it wouldn't matter so much in hypotetic multiplayer, because it would be too heavily focused on just getting to Construction Yard and killing it. To be fair, Broodwar might have similar issue now, because good macro and resource management is so much above everything else; but I guess the degree of this problem is way lesser than in Dune II. Still, back to Starcraft. After over twelve years of experience, we know damn lot about it; but look how long it took to figure out the superior value of macro, or little, but crucial features like Muta stacking. Try to look wider on it: aside from being a sport, it became a science, where coaches and progamers crafted new builds to counter currently trending strategies of enemy races on specific maps. Do you see the similarities between Starcraft and chess? Just like top grandmasters examined some lines deeper and deeper to find improvements, SC players seeked more and more polished builds AND more and more effective adaptations to the opponents' responses. And, again just like in chess, with time passing by, the defensive technique of SC gamers improved a lot, steering the game from wild early agression to longer, management-style struggle. I don't think any patch of Dune II could accomplish those. Don't make a mistake about it; it's not that much about arbitrary judgement, about the 'bandwagon' of netizens starting to play SC, cause everyone got excited about it. Broodwar got so popular for objective reasons: because it had relatively low hardware requirements, three playable races that became more and more balanced with following patches, and, most importantly, various ways of accomplishing the goal of winning. You could win by patient defense, cheese, relentless harass, crazy macro, hitting certain timing etc. There was no one correct way to beat your opponent, no Construction Yard you had to focus-fire on like in Dune II; even though some strategies proved to be direct counters to the others, the game still could've been saved by better micro, positioning and/or smart guessing what's coming. And when a game with such features met the growing market of on-line games and the growing number of Internet gamers, the result was as we see it today. Last but not least, think about the randomness factor. In chess, it's plainly nonexistent. Player has all relevant informations in front of him, on the chessboard. Therefore, in chess, the result is not determined by a gamble or hit-or-miss guessing game; it depends on whether one or the other player has good enough analytical thinking to extract the information from the position and good enough judgement of what's coming, based on concrete situational factors. The only person to blame for a loss in chess is yourself, which of course is one of many things that suck people into the world of 64 squares. But in Starcraft, the randomness factor is quite important. Build-order losses happen. A scouting advantage, ninja expo, gltching unit or some imbalanced map positions for specific matchups can easily yield an immediate advantage to either side. Surely, some of those features can be overcome; but not every time. Starcraft players simply got over it, as it's not that big deal in SC, and, I guess, a small piece of random gamble is a part of the fun. And finally, consider Dune II. Broodwar had the randomness, but it was about fog of war, start locations or unfixed bugs. But in Dune, all air units were one big random factor. I, myself saw Carryalls being destroyed by enemy troops cause they tried to pick up an unit that was about to die, and when it exploded, it's blast took down the plane as well. Take a look on sandworms; as far as I remember, they sometimes were super-agressive and prevented one player from mining certain spice field, wheras second player, on the other side of the map, could collect his own spice peacefully. Ever used Harkonnen Palace weapon? It never landed right on a place you intended to hit; sometimes, you took down CY with the first shot; sometimes, you had to spend five to actually hit anything but the desert. Etc. etc. My final point is: the less control you have over in-game features, the more random and gamble-like game is. And there is a point, where it becomes frustrating, because not enough depends on your actions. Broodwar wasn't random enough to frustrate it's fans; but IMO Dune II would be that way - if it ever could turn out to be a popular multiplayer game. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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